Lelie >>> involved in a 3 way trade? (1 Viewer)

[-OZ-]

Tight End is generally considered the NFL position that has the steepest learning curve (even above WR), so expecting Scheffler to contribute as a rookie is... overly optimistic.

I couldn't agree more. So why is nobody applying this same logic to Davis? Injury prone or not, I don't see the benifit in letting go of Johnson for SF. He's been there and played at an elite level before. SF has invested a good git into Davis and Johnson shold prove helpful to his development.

I don't know. I agree that it would benefit San Francisco to keep Johnson around to mentor Davis... but at the same time, I also think that no matter what they do, they don't have a prayer this season, so they might as well start planning for the future. I think two or three years from now, Lelie would be more beneficial for the team than Johnson... and acquiring him via trade right now means you have a year to evaluate him before he hits the market, and it also means that you don't have to get into a bidding war to get him.

Tight End is generally considered the NFL position that has the steepest learning curve (even above WR), so expecting Scheffler to contribute as a rookie is... overly optimistic.

I couldn't agree more. So why is nobody applying this same logic to Davis? Injury prone or not, I don't see the benifit in letting go of Johnson for SF. He's been there and played at an elite level before. SF has invested a good git into Davis and Johnson shold prove helpful to his development.

Good point, but I totally disagree with it being the NFL position that has the steepest learning curve, isn't that supposed to be QB? Maybe the 2nd toughest, all around.

Nope, look at the numbers. Aikman was a pro bowler by his 3rd season. Manning's huge record-breaking season was his second. Peyton Manning had 60+% completion, 4000+ yards, and a positive TD/INT ratio in season #2. Eli had 3700+ yards, saw his ypa jump 1.5 points, and had a positive TD/INT ratio. Brian Griese threw for 3000 yards in his second season, and had the 2nd best TD:INT ratio of all time in his 3rd. Brett Favre was a pro bowler in his second season. Culpepper had a 62% completion rate, 3937 yards, a ridiculous 8.3 ypa, and 33/16 TD/INT spread. Marc Bulger- 3845 yards and 62+% completion rate in year 2. Aaron Brooks- 3832 yards. Bledsoe- 4555 yards and a pro bowl. Carson Palmer- 32/12 TD/Ints, 3836 yards, and serious MVP consideration in his 2nd/3rd season (depending on if you count 2003).History is LITTERED with QBs who all of a sudden get it and are studs within their first two seasons. It's a lot less common from TEs and QBs. I think Shockey was the only rookie TE in the last couple of decades to make any significant impact.

I could not disagree with this post more. It's easy to list off all the QBs that have done it, all the while not mentioning the TEs that have (which are plentiful) and totally ignoring the fact that there are a lot more highly rated QBs coming out of college than there are highly rated TEs.I assume you meant Marino's record breaking season came in his 2nd year (not Manning). Nice of you to leave out the part where the record breaking TE season also came from a second year guy (Gates for 1000/13 in year #2).

By year #3 Gonzo was putting up 900/9, which is about equivalent to a 3500/30 season for a QB. Bubba Franks had 9 TDs in year 2. Shockey as you mentioned went for nearly 900yds as a rookie. Randy Mcmichael and Alge Crumpler were putting up top 10 TE numbers by year #2, and Todd Heap was a top 3 TE in his 2nd year in the league. Jason Witten also went for 980/6 (again...huge for a TE) in year #2.

These are all just current guys too, whereas you're going back 23 years for QB examples. To say that the NFL is littered with QBs doing this and TEs are few and far between is absolutely false. Nearly all the TEs worth drafting in FF right now were putting up solid numbers by year #2 or #3. Sure, like you said only one or so was really doing it by year #1, but the same is true for QBs (Roethlisberger).

We really need to keep in mind that up until recently, few veteran TEs put up large stats.Winslow had 1290/9 in his 2nd season.

Mark Bavaro started every game his rookie year and put up 1000 yards in his 2nd year.

FWIW, for both of these, their 2nd year were their best, statwise.

 

[Bri]

Tight End is generally considered the NFL position that has the steepest learning curve (even above WR), so expecting Scheffler to contribute as a rookie is... overly optimistic.

I couldn't agree more. So why is nobody applying this same logic to Davis? Injury prone or not, I don't see the benifit in letting go of Johnson for SF. He's been there and played at an elite level before. SF has invested a good git into Davis and Johnson shold prove helpful to his development.

Good point, but I totally disagree with it being the NFL position that has the steepest learning curve, isn't that supposed to be QB? Maybe the 2nd toughest, all around.

and it's also often a weight thing too

 

[Bri]

Lelie might not outperform Patten?

You realize that Lelie has led the league in ypc for two straight seasons now, right? You realize that Lelie is one of the best deep threats in the entire NFL, right? He's an average blocker, pretty bad on short to intermediate routes... but he's a huge weapon deep, and does a lot to keep defenses honest, even if he doesn't catch the ball. Nobody cheats safeties up when Lelie is entering his track stance.

Lelie would make a great career #2 guy, if it weren't for the fact that he was convinced that he was really a #1.

You realize I know you're a bronco fan and remember all their "just deep" WRs? Right now, he's Swervin Mervyn, he might develop but for now....

Lelie isn't an average "just deep" WR. He's one of the top 5 deep threats in the NFL. There's a pretty big difference.

Swervin' Mervyn averaged 26 yards per catch one year and roughly 19 another and.....I think you're giving off some homerism here man. No one has disagreed with the "if he improved his game/developped" angle but we're talking about now. If he's not "just deep" than give me some stats that proves it. I already pointed out he either has none or very very few red zone TDs in his career. Gimme some stats for your side of the argument then

No one is disputing that Bri, but the disagreement here is over how valuable that is.Lelie changes defenses with his ability to get deep.

I disagree and can't think of the game....grrr one team put their young raw but fast nickelback on him. Most teams have that young speedy CB and the prob is solved then. It's not like the Safeties aren't aware of the deep ball when Denver lines up other WRs. Something along here gave me the impression people act like opponents line their safeties up at the LOS(or somesuch) unless Lelie's in.

IMO If he's a good WR it can't be that easy

My opinion is formed by having drafted Mervyn, drank way too much Derrick Mayes(some other pack WR with a T in his name went to the raiders) and Corey Bradford koolaid not to mention that KR track star on New Orleans in a dynasty league that he never seemed to learn how to catch and countless just fast WRs Vermeil loved solely for sheer speed.

I suppose we'll see but after being burned so many times I feel like I can recognize the "just fast" guys.

 

[Bri]

Denver runs a ton of 2-TE sets.

In most 2 TE sets one TE is the receiver and the other is in as an extra blocker that the D will hopefully waste a man coverring him. 2 TEs could very well be like saying an offensive set with "an extra lineman" for most NFL teams.Parcells used Mowatt(think it was him) and Bavaro real well after seeing Gibbs use two TEs real well back in the 80s. They stand out to me, precious few actually send out both TEs.

Denver has had 3 TEs on their roster for the past 3 seasons skills, and the developmental prospect).

that's not true3 mentioned here plus Mike Leach and Patrick Hape. Regardless if you argue H-back Hape as a FB that's still 4.

 

[SSOG]

Denver runs a ton of 2-TE sets.

In most 2 TE sets one TE is the receiver and the other is in as an extra blocker that the D will hopefully waste a man coverring him. 2 TEs could very well be like saying an offensive set with "an extra lineman" for most NFL teams.Parcells used Mowatt(think it was him) and Bavaro real well after seeing Gibbs use two TEs real well back in the 80s. They stand out to me, precious few actually send out both TEs.

Denver has had 3 TEs on their roster for the past 3 seasons skills, and the developmental prospect).

that's not true3 mentioned here plus Mike Leach and Patrick Hape. Regardless if you argue H-back Hape as a FB that's still 4.

Leach is a long snapper and has never been on the field for an offensive snap that I'm aware of. His listed position is TE, but he never plays it. Hape was a backup Fullback/backup TE/H-back/goal-line threat/special teamer/what-have-you. Not a pure TE, more of a quality backup at several positions. I saw him line up at FB as often as he did at TE.Regardless, if you count those guys as TEs, it only further strengthens my point. My point was that Denver traditionally has more than 2 TEs on its roster, so it makes sense to trade for an extra. I count 3 usually in town. If you count 4 or 5, that means Denver even more desperately needs to trade for a TE.

Regardless of how Denver uses them, or how many there typically are, or what qualifies as a TE... Denver usually has more TEs on its roster than it currently does, and will be very limited in what it can do if it doesn't go out and get another veteran TE.

 

[T Man]

I just read this on CBS Sportsline. Anyone else seen this mentioned.

"News: According to reports, Ashley Lelie has been mentioned as part of a potential three-team trade that includes Atlanta RB T.J. Duckett and New England TE Daniel Graham.

Analysis: The Patriots would receive Lelie, the Broncos would land Graham and Duckett, and the Falcons would receive draft choices from both teams if this deal comes to fruition."

IF SO -- what kind of trade picks are the Falcons rumored to be receiving????

And Denver gets another RB????

 

[mightyeskimo]

I just read this on CBS Sportsline. Anyone else seen this mentioned.

"News: According to reports, Ashley Lelie has been mentioned as part of a potential three-team trade that includes Atlanta RB T.J. Duckett and New England TE Daniel Graham.

Analysis: The Patriots would receive Lelie, the Broncos would land Graham and Duckett, and the Falcons would receive draft choices from both teams if this deal comes to fruition."

IF SO -- what kind of trade picks are the Falcons rumored to be receiving????

And Denver gets another RB????

I play on Sportsline and have also seen this. However, I don't think there is any new info at this time.

 

[Sleeper 43]

SO what happens to Lelie's value if hes traded ? Do most think he will be traded to be a #2 still. Does he have the skills to be productive on a new team?

 

[jerseys finest]

SO what happens to Lelie's value if hes traded ? Do most think he will be traded to be a #2 still. Does he have the skills to be productive on a new team?

if anyone could turn lelie into a viable threat, it would be belichick.. If this trade were to come true, i'd say it would bolster Branch more then it would for Lelie, fantasy wise

 

[GoL]

I just read this on CBS Sportsline. Anyone else seen this mentioned.

"News: According to reports, Ashley Lelie has been mentioned as part of a potential three-team trade that includes Atlanta RB T.J. Duckett and New England TE Daniel Graham.

Analysis: The Patriots would receive Lelie, the Broncos would land Graham and Duckett, and the Falcons would receive draft choices from both teams if this deal comes to fruition."

IF SO -- what kind of trade picks are the Falcons rumored to be receiving????

And Denver gets another RB????

Is it just me or does this make no sense.Why do the Patriots send a draft choice to Atl so Den gets Duckett?

 

[dudaman]

I just read this on CBS Sportsline.  Anyone else seen this mentioned.

"News: According to reports, Ashley Lelie has been mentioned as part of a potential three-team trade that includes Atlanta RB T.J. Duckett and New England TE Daniel Graham.

Analysis: The Patriots would receive Lelie, the Broncos would land Graham and Duckett, and the Falcons would receive draft choices from both teams if this deal comes to fruition."

IF SO -- what kind of trade picks are the Falcons rumored to be receiving????

And Denver gets another RB????

Is it just me or does this make no sense.Why do the Patriots send a draft choice to Atl so Den gets Duckett?

There is no way the Pats give up one of the best blocking (and decent receiver) TE AND a draft pick for Lelie. Something is amiss.

 

[SSOG]

SO what happens to Lelie's value if hes traded ? Do most think he will be traded to be a #2 still. Does he have the skills to be productive on a new team?

if anyone could turn lelie into a viable threat, it would be belichick.. If this trade were to come true, i'd say it would bolster Branch more then it would for Lelie, fantasy wise

If Belichick was so capable of turning Lelie into a viable threat, then what the heck happened to Bethel Johnson?I'm sick of the mindless Belichick praise. First off, if ANYONE is going to turn Lelie into a "viable threat", it would be one of the great OFFENSIVE minds, such as Martz, Gruden... or Shanahan himself. Second off, Lelie has led the league in ypc for two straight seasons. As far as I'm concerned, that makes him a pretty "viable threat" already.

 

[Bri]

SO what happens to Lelie's value if hes traded ?  Do most think he will be traded to be a #2 still. Does he have the skills to be productive on a new team?

if anyone could turn lelie into a viable threat, it would be belichick.. If this trade were to come true, i'd say it would bolster Branch more then it would for Lelie, fantasy wise

If Belichick was so capable of turning Lelie into a viable threat, then what the heck happened to Bethel Johnson?I'm sick of the mindless Belichick praise. First off, if ANYONE is going to turn Lelie into a "viable threat", it would be one of the great OFFENSIVE minds, such as Martz, Gruden... or Shanahan himself. Second off, Lelie has led the league in ypc for two straight seasons. As far as I'm concerned, that makes him a pretty "viable threat" already.

Didn't college QB Ray Lucas play ST, WR,and QB for a team BB coached?Special teams boy Troy Brown has done well as a WR and even as a CB recently.

Shanny got more out of easy ed than any coach before him, it's not a slight on him but BB surely deserves some credit too. Nothing wrong with having several quality coaches

 

[SSOG]

Didn't college QB Ray Lucas play ST, WR,and QB for a team BB coached?

Special teams boy Troy Brown has done well as a WR and even as a CB recently.

Shanny got more out of easy ed than any coach before him, it's not a slight on him but BB surely deserves some credit too. Nothing wrong with having several quality coaches

Every single coach in the NFL is going to have a list of players who performed better than anyone ever anticipated under their watch. I simply fail to see why Lelie would be more likely to overachieve under Belichick than he would under Tom Moore, Mike Shanahan, Mike Martz, Bill Cowher, John Gruden, or any of the other noted offensive minds in the game today.I don't have a problem with a statement to the effect of "Belichick is great at getting the most from his players", I just have a problem with a statement to the effect of "Belichick is better than anyone else at getting the most from his players". I don't even think that Bellichick is the slam-dunk best coach in the league. I'd put Cowher, Parcells, Reid, and Shanahan all on his level, easily. If Gibbs gives me one more season of evidence that he's back, Gibbs makes the list, too.

 

[Bri]

Didn't college QB Ray Lucas play ST, WR,and QB for a team BB coached?

Special teams boy Troy Brown has done well as a WR and even as a CB recently.

Shanny got more out of easy ed than any coach before him, it's not a slight on him but BB surely deserves some credit too. Nothing wrong with having several quality coaches

Every single coach in the NFL is going to have a list of players who performed better than anyone ever anticipated under their watch. I simply fail to see why Lelie would be more likely to overachieve under Belichick than he would under Tom Moore, Mike Shanahan, Mike Martz, Bill Cowher, John Gruden, or any of the other noted offensive minds in the game today.I don't have a problem with a statement to the effect of "Belichick is great at getting the most from his players", I just have a problem with a statement to the effect of "Belichick is better than anyone else at getting the most from his players". I don't even think that Bellichick is the slam-dunk best coach in the league. I'd put Cowher, Parcells, Reid, and Shanahan all on his level, easily. If Gibbs gives me one more season of evidence that he's back, Gibbs makes the list, too.

you called it "mindless praise" in the previous post I referred to.BB has a knack for taking players off the scrap heap and making them a cog in his system. I do think he's currently the best at doing that.

Shanahan is an excellent coach maybe on his way to the Hall himself. Gibbs and Parcells are locks for the Hall. I doubt BB minds being compared to hall of fame coaches, who would?

In the last 4-5 years he's better than those you listed. His team's record proves that. During his career, well that's certainly debatable.

Personally, I would say Shanny has done well, very well, at creating a prolific offensive system where he can find the right guy and plug him in to instant success. IMO He's struggled to replace Easy Ed and Sharpe. I thought highly of them and would somewhat expect such a struggle because of that. I don't think Lelie was the guy, Walker may be, but Lelie isn't good enough to hold Easy Ed's sneaks. I have praised Shanny for his late round gems he's found and so I'm "entitled" to "beat him up" for what I feel was a wrong guess/predicition/evaluation of talent etc in Lelie. I think their team last year was not far from being a Supe team and that WR would have made a difference. That's why I think out of tons of good and bad draft picks, Lelie holds a bit more weight now. 2 years from now he could be all but forgotten like Quincy Morgan.

FWIW with Schefler(sp?) and Walker it seems he may have accomplished this task.

 

[aposulli]

Belickick emphatically denies wanting to trade Graham.

Confirming what Pats homers everywhere knew.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2485406

 

[Big Score]

KFFLPatriots | Team turned down Denver trade proposalThu, 15 Jun 2006 06:09:16 -0700John Tomase, of the Boston Herald, reports sources said the Denver Broncos approached the New England Patriots about a trade for TE Daniel Graham, but the Patriots said "no thank you."

 

[diesel7982]

Belickick emphatically denies wanting to trade Graham.

Confirming what Pats homers everywhere knew.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2485406

Belichek turned down an offer of Graham AND draft picks for Lelie.We have no idea if he would have dealt Graham for Lelie straight up.

 

[Big Score]

Belickick emphatically denies wanting to trade Graham.

Confirming what Pats homers everywhere knew.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2485406

Belichek turned down an offer of Graham AND draft picks for Lelie.We have no idea if he would have dealt Graham for Lelie straight up.

I'm fairly certain that if Belichek was truly interested in first, dealing Graham & second, acquiring Lelie, he would have made a counter offer to get something done.

 

[aposulli]

Belickick emphatically denies wanting to trade Graham.

Confirming what Pats homers everywhere knew.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2485406

Belichek turned down an offer of Graham AND draft picks for Lelie.We have no idea if he would have dealt Graham for Lelie straight up.

Yes we do.Silly move considering how many 2 TE sets teh Pats use and the fact that they only have Graham and Watson for vet TE's.

 

[Football Jones]

I mentioned a few days ago I wasn't sure Denver would actually go after a TE with future stud (IMO) Tony Scheffler waiting in the wings. However, Alexander is just a stop-gap starting TE (even though Shanny likes him) & Scheffler will likely need at least a year to develop.

Denver is trying to win now. If Denver could've received Graham & draft picks or Graham/Duckett in the three-way for Lelie, it would've been a great move. Graham is a FA after this season & the Broncos could just let him walk if they believed Scheffler would be ready in '07.

Doesn't look like New England is interested, though. I'm not even sure the Pats will let Graham walk like many are saying. They drafted Dave Thomas & Garrett Mills, but Mills will also play FB & is a little undersized for a true TE. Even with draftees Thomas & Mills, the only other TEs on the roster are Graham & Watson. They're not as overloaded at the position as it seems.

 

[Bri]

Football Jones,

if the Pats believe they too are amongst the few strong candidates to win the Supe, why would they trade to Denver? re-"win now" statement.

 

[Football Jones]

Football Jones,

if the Pats believe they too are amongst the few strong candidates to win the Supe, why would they trade to Denver? re-"win now" statement.

Well, I don't believe it would be a good deal for the Pats. I was only speaking from Denver's point of view. Anyway, who knows if the Pats considered it or would consider it. If it is only rumor, it likely stems from the fact Graham will be a FA & people think the Pats might want to move him & get something to help their chances this season.