Let's discuss Offensive Coordinators - We have some new ones like Philly, LVR, SEA, DET, HOU (1 Viewer)

[Ministry of Pain]

Remember when Philly had a new OC and DC in '23 and the sky was falling and Nick Sirianni was throwing them both under the bus while fighting for his job?
Is my take on Philly '23 different than yours?

It might behoove all of us to take a moment and learn some more about these new folks calling plays. Some of these teams I'm not sure the OC is really in charge, could be the HC
Miami brought in a new OC, Pass Coordinator, Safety Patrol Officer, they covered their bases. But at the end of the day I assume M&M can call whatever play he dials up or wants in that head set
Usually when you are deemed an expert at either Offense being hired as an OC or Defense when you are hired as a DC, typically when you get stripped of play call duties, things don't work out well
Not for the players or the FF GMs at home so I think we should at lest discuss the ramifications on some of these new hires around the NFL

These play callers and the meatheads that make up the OL have the biggest impact on what you should expect from most players
Think about it

 

[Snotbubbles]

Remember when Philly had a new OC and DC in '23 and the sky was falling and Nick Sirianni was throwing them both under the bus while fighting for his job?
Is my take on Philly '23 different than yours?

It might behoove all of us to take a moment and learn some more about these new folks calling plays. Some of these teams I'm not sure the OC is really in charge, could be the HC
Miami brought in a new OC, Pass Coordinator, Safety Patrol Officer, they covered their bases. But at the end of the day I assume M&M can call whatever play he dials up or wants in that head set
Usually when you are deemed an expert at either Offense being hired as an OC or Defense when you are hired as a DC, typically when you get stripped of play call duties, things don't work out well
Not for the players or the FF GMs at home so I think we should at lest discuss the ramifications on some of these new hires around the NFL

These play callers and the meatheads that make up the OL have the biggest impact on what you should expect from most players
Think about it

The Eagles issues in 2023 were mostly the inexperienced defensive coordinator didn't have a clue. The offensive output from 2023 to 2024 was pretty similar, with some subtle differences. Brian Johnson had Hurts throw the ball a bit more than the two sandwich Super Bowl years. As long as the Eagles new OC doesn't try to have Jalen Hurts lead the league in pass attempts (I don't think he will, he was an internal hire) and the Eagles finish top 3 in rush attempts, I don't expect the Eagles offense to drop off much.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Remember when Philly had a new OC and DC in '23 and the sky was falling and Nick Sirianni was throwing them both under the bus while fighting for his job?
Is my take on Philly '23 different than yours?

It might behoove all of us to take a moment and learn some more about these new folks calling plays. Some of these teams I'm not sure the OC is really in charge, could be the HC
Miami brought in a new OC, Pass Coordinator, Safety Patrol Officer, they covered their bases. But at the end of the day I assume M&M can call whatever play he dials up or wants in that head set
Usually when you are deemed an expert at either Offense being hired as an OC or Defense when you are hired as a DC, typically when you get stripped of play call duties, things don't work out well
Not for the players or the FF GMs at home so I think we should at lest discuss the ramifications on some of these new hires around the NFL

These play callers and the meatheads that make up the OL have the biggest impact on what you should expect from most players
Think about it

The Eagles issues in 2023 were mostly the inexperienced defensive coordinator didn't have a clue. The offensive output from 2023 to 2024 was pretty similar, with some subtle differences. Brian Johnson had Hurts throw the ball a bit more than the two sandwich Super Bowl years. As long as the Eagles new OC doesn't try to have Jalen Hurts lead the league in pass attempts (I don't think he will, he was an internal hire) and the Eagles finish top 3 in rush attempts, I don't expect the Eagles offense to drop off much.

You won the Super Bowl last year, no need to feel defensive. I'm joking with you but my larger point is who are these new faces calling plays and why should I trust them?
And I used Philly since they are the official team of FBG, are they not?

 

[need2know]

Im curious how detroit looks. i think losing their oc could really impact them. dont think the others look different except the raiders but thats a whole new regime

 

[Snotbubbles]

Remember when Philly had a new OC and DC in '23 and the sky was falling and Nick Sirianni was throwing them both under the bus while fighting for his job?
Is my take on Philly '23 different than yours?

It might behoove all of us to take a moment and learn some more about these new folks calling plays. Some of these teams I'm not sure the OC is really in charge, could be the HC
Miami brought in a new OC, Pass Coordinator, Safety Patrol Officer, they covered their bases. But at the end of the day I assume M&M can call whatever play he dials up or wants in that head set
Usually when you are deemed an expert at either Offense being hired as an OC or Defense when you are hired as a DC, typically when you get stripped of play call duties, things don't work out well
Not for the players or the FF GMs at home so I think we should at lest discuss the ramifications on some of these new hires around the NFL

These play callers and the meatheads that make up the OL have the biggest impact on what you should expect from most players
Think about it

The Eagles issues in 2023 were mostly the inexperienced defensive coordinator didn't have a clue. The offensive output from 2023 to 2024 was pretty similar, with some subtle differences. Brian Johnson had Hurts throw the ball a bit more than the two sandwich Super Bowl years. As long as the Eagles new OC doesn't try to have Jalen Hurts lead the league in pass attempts (I don't think he will, he was an internal hire) and the Eagles finish top 3 in rush attempts, I don't expect the Eagles offense to drop off much.

You won the Super Bowl last year, no need to feel defensive. I'm joking with you but my larger point is who are these new faces calling plays and why should I trust them?
And I used Philly since they are the official team of FBG, are they not?

Your question was offense specific, so I didn't think I was being defensive. I tailored my response to how the changes on offense impacted Philly, which is to say, they didn't. Philly's offense is what it is. A team that will be bottom 10 in pass attempts and top 10 in rush attempts. Their new OC is an internal hire who came to the Eagles with Sirianni. So I don't think he's going to try and re-invent the wheel. Barring injuries to key player, Philly will finish with a top 10 offense and a top 5 rushing offense.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Remember when Philly had a new OC and DC in '23 and the sky was falling and Nick Sirianni was throwing them both under the bus while fighting for his job?
Is my take on Philly '23 different than yours?

It might behoove all of us to take a moment and learn some more about these new folks calling plays. Some of these teams I'm not sure the OC is really in charge, could be the HC
Miami brought in a new OC, Pass Coordinator, Safety Patrol Officer, they covered their bases. But at the end of the day I assume M&M can call whatever play he dials up or wants in that head set
Usually when you are deemed an expert at either Offense being hired as an OC or Defense when you are hired as a DC, typically when you get stripped of play call duties, things don't work out well
Not for the players or the FF GMs at home so I think we should at lest discuss the ramifications on some of these new hires around the NFL

These play callers and the meatheads that make up the OL have the biggest impact on what you should expect from most players
Think about it

The Eagles issues in 2023 were mostly the inexperienced defensive coordinator didn't have a clue. The offensive output from 2023 to 2024 was pretty similar, with some subtle differences. Brian Johnson had Hurts throw the ball a bit more than the two sandwich Super Bowl years. As long as the Eagles new OC doesn't try to have Jalen Hurts lead the league in pass attempts (I don't think he will, he was an internal hire) and the Eagles finish top 3 in rush attempts, I don't expect the Eagles offense to drop off much.

You won the Super Bowl last year, no need to feel defensive. I'm joking with you but my larger point is who are these new faces calling plays and why should I trust them?
And I used Philly since they are the official team of FBG, are they not?

Your question was offense specific, so I didn't think I was being defensive. I tailored my response to how the changes on offense impacted Philly, which is to say, they didn't. Philly's offense is what it is. A team that will be bottom 10 in pass attempts and top 10 in rush attempts. Their new OC is an internal hire who came to the Eagles with Sirianni. So I don't think he's going to try and re-invent the wheel. Barring injuries to key player, Philly will finish with a top 10 offense and a top 5 rushing offense.

Appreciate the clarification, I was trying to compliment the Eagles as I have all off season and will continue to use them as the example of how to own the Draft and fill your roster up with talent. Wanna take a guess who I might have as my Super Bowl favorite at the moment? I wish my team could draft that well.

Now as to these new faces, I am a little concerned from a FF POV any time there is a new OC calling the plays, sometimes it's a fantastic shot in the arm like the Bucs last season with Liam
But then it doesn't always work out and you see guys like Ken Dorsey fired while working with one of the Top 3 QBs in the NFL.

Liam is now the HC in Jax, I'm probably not as interested in the OC there season 1 as I think Liam will be hands on at first. We'll know quickly if TLaw has a future, I still believe in him with the right cast around him, Thomas is promising.

-Miami has a couple new faces in the building including one of those specialist that only works on the passing game plan, lot of chefs in the kitchen.
Thanks for the post SB

 

[JAA]

Im curious how detroit looks. i think losing their oc could really impact them. dont think the others look different except the raiders but thats a whole new regime

What I think is crazy is how little the Pats lost when it felt like they were losing coordinators every year. In addition, most of those coordinators did squat once leaving NE.

 

[Boston]

Im curious how detroit looks. i think losing their oc could really impact them. dont think the others look different except the raiders but thats a whole new regime

What I think is crazy is how little the Pats lost when it felt like they were losing coordinators every year. In addition, most of those coordinators did squat once leaving NE.

It's not crazy when you realize they had maybe the greatest defensive mind (BB) and offensive mind (TB12) there the whole time as well as one of the greatest O-line coaches in Dante Scarnecchia...that part never changed...not a fluke when Dante left there has been nothing but O-line issues.

 

[JAA]

Im curious how detroit looks. i think losing their oc could really impact them. dont think the others look different except the raiders but thats a whole new regime

What I think is crazy is how little the Pats lost when it felt like they were losing coordinators every year. In addition, most of those coordinators did squat once leaving NE.

It's not crazy when you realize they had maybe the greatest defensive mind (BB) and offensive mind (TB12) there the whole time...that part never changed.

I dont want to disagree with that per se, but I would contend that NE fell off once TB12 left. Unless BB went senile, where was that defensive mind when he didnt have Brady under center?

I live in NE and am a Philly fan, so I dont want to get into a bad argument. I want to give NE credit for what they accomplished. At the same time though, I think BB has fallen a little off of his pedestal with what little he accomplished once Brady left.

 

[Boston]

Im curious how detroit looks. i think losing their oc could really impact them. dont think the others look different except the raiders but thats a whole new regime

What I think is crazy is how little the Pats lost when it felt like they were losing coordinators every year. In addition, most of those coordinators did squat once leaving NE.

Also there were only 3 OC's during the Brady era...Weis, McDaniels and O'Brien.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Im curious how detroit looks. i think losing their oc could really impact them. dont think the others look different except the raiders but thats a whole new regime

What I think is crazy is how little the Pats lost when it felt like they were losing coordinators every year. In addition, most of those coordinators did squat once leaving NE.

I'm interested how Detroit will look as well. Before Johnson came, the Lions the Lions were a 3 win team with the 25th (points) and 22nd (yards) offense. Dan Campbell was the head coach. Aaron Glenn the DC. They had Jared Goff at QB. D'Andre Swift/Jamaal Williams at RB. Amon-Ra St. Brown at WR. T.J. Hockenson at TE. So they weren't devoid of talent.

Enter Ben Johnson and the team wins 9 games and has the 5th (points) and 4th (yards offense). All due respect to Frank Ragnow, I don't think he was the missing piece on offense. Plus, I think the defense from 2021 to 2022 actually got worse.

 

[JAA]

Im curious how detroit looks. i think losing their oc could really impact them. dont think the others look different except the raiders but thats a whole new regime

What I think is crazy is how little the Pats lost when it felt like they were losing coordinators every year. In addition, most of those coordinators did squat once leaving NE.

I'm interested how Detroit will look as well. Before Johnson came, the Lions the Lions were a 3 win team with the 25th (points) and 22nd (yards) offense. Dan Campbell was the head coach. Aaron Glenn the DC. They had Jared Goff at QB. D'Andre Swift/Jamaal Williams at RB. Amon-Ra St. Brown at WR. T.J. Hockenson at TE. So they weren't devoid of talent.

Enter Ben Johnson and the team wins 9 games and has the 5th (points) and 4th (yards offense). All due respect to Frank Ragnow, I don't think he was the missing piece on offense. Plus, I think the defense from 2021 to 2022 actually got worse.

Reminds me a lot of VicF joining Philly and the immediate turnaround we had. If he left Philly, Im confident we would regress. Im curious if that will happen with Det.

 

[Anarchy99]

NE brought back McDaniels, and while many other folks have applauded the move, I am skeptical about what the results will be. Here's why . . .

The Pats with McDaniels running the offense and Brady in town: 124-33 in the regular season (.790). All other games as a HC or OC without Brady: 52-69 (.430). In a 17-game season, that's the difference between 13.4 wins and 7.3 wins. The Pats had a decent season record-wise with Cassel (with a totally stacked roster). They had another decent record with Mac 'n' Cheese as a rookie, but the year-end numbers were inflated by scoring 150 points against NYJ, JAX, and CLE that year. I know we can't eliminate games, but the rest of the year the offense ranked around 20th.

That's exactly where McDaniels offenses have ranked in his 7 seasons in the past 15 years without Brady (since he left to coach the Broncos). His offenses have averaged 20th in both offensive yardage and points scored. And most of those teams had a lot more to work with on offense than what the Patriots currently have. I still don't think they made much of an improvement to their OL or receiving corps (at least as of now). I also don't think there is a ton of help available to them in the draft at WR. Yes, they added Diggs, but that seems like more of a desperation move than a strategic win for them. IMO, they signed a guy on the wrong side of 30 coming off a serious injury. I am aware they didn't have many options left and Diggs if healthy at some point will be better than what they had. But we may never see prime Diggs again. Maye turn out to be the real deal, but I don't think they did him many favors this off season. (Again, I realize they were in a tough spot with a lot of players not willing to play for NE.)

 

[Boston]

Im curious how detroit looks. i think losing their oc could really impact them. dont think the others look different except the raiders but thats a whole new regime

What I think is crazy is how little the Pats lost when it felt like they were losing coordinators every year. In addition, most of those coordinators did squat once leaving NE.

It's not crazy when you realize they had maybe the greatest defensive mind (BB) and offensive mind (TB12) there the whole time...that part never changed.

I dont want to disagree with that per se, but I would contend that NE fell off once TB12 left. Unless BB went senile, where was that defensive mind when he didnt have Brady under center?

I live in NE and am a Philly fan, so I dont want to get into a bad argument. I want to give NE credit for what they accomplished. At the same time though, I think BB has fallen a little off of his pedestal with what little he accomplished once Brady left.

I think it was a bunch of things...first you need to separate BB the HC from BB the GM...BB the HC could still coach but BB the GM was a mess and the roster got to a point it didn't matter who was coaching...secondly, BB was very stubborn and thought he could run the team the same way without TB12 and Dante and that was a huge miscalculation and very obvious which is why it was so disappointing to see happen...when he made Patricia the OC it was very apparent that things were not going to end well...that being said I still consider him the best HC of all time because for 20 years he was...but like every player or Coach there comes a time when you aren't what you were and BB is no different but that should have zero effect on what he accomplished for two decades.

 

[Boston]

NE brought back McDaniels, and while many other folks have applauded the move, I am skeptical about what the results will be. Here's why . . .

The Pats with McDaniels running the offense and Brady in town: 124-33 in the regular season (.790). All other games as a HC or OC without Brady: 52-69 (.430). In a 17-game season, that's the difference between 13.4 wins and 7.3 wins. The Pats had a decent season record-wise with Cassel (with a totally stacked roster). They had another decent record with Mac 'n' Cheese as a rookie, but the year-end numbers were inflated by scoring 150 points against NYJ, JAX, and CLE that year. I know we can't eliminate games, but the rest of the year the offense ranked around 20th.

That's exactly where McDaniels offenses have ranked in his 7 seasons in the past 15 years without Brady (since he left to coach the Broncos). His offenses have averaged 20th in both offensive yardage and points scored. And most of those teams had a lot more to work with on offense than what the Patriots currently have. I still don't think they made much of an improvement to their OL or receiving corps (at least as of now). I also don't think there is a ton of help available to them in the draft at WR. Yes, they added Diggs, but that seems like more of a desperation move than a strategic win for them. IMO, they signed a guy on the wrong side of 30 coming off a serious injury. I am aware they didn't have many options left and Diggs if healthy at some point will be better than what they had. But we may never see prime Diggs again. Maye turn out to be the real deal, but I don't think they did him many favors this off season. (Again, I realize they were in a tough spot with a lot of players not willing to play for NE.)

Sorry but this isn't fair...his QBs with the Pats outside of Brady were Cassel, Cam and Jones and I can say with a lot of confidence he got the very most out of all three of those guy...I really don't think that is even debatable.

 

[Anarchy99]

Sorry but this isn't fair...his QBs with the Pats outside of Brady were Cassel, Cam and Jones and I can say with a lot of confidence he got the very most out of all three of those guy...I really don't think that is even debatable.

IMO, you are only amplifying what I was pointing out: McDaniels with Brady, a ton of weapons, and a solid OL were great. Is it fair to expect this version of NE to be on par with the dynasty era Pats? No. But it's very fair to project them to again rank in the Bottom 10 offensively this year. Yes, Maye could be solid, but he has one career win so far. Not pinning that on him, but he still doesn't have much to work with, and he had very few pressure situations to deal with. I'm not saying he won't do well eventually, but I think we are a long way away from concluding he will be a Top 5 in the league type of QB year in and year out.

They had a juggernaut offense when Cassel had to step in (Moss and Welker in particular with one of the best OLs in the league). Yes, the QBs he's had to work with were not anywhere near Brady. That's a given. But he's had some good skill players to work with: Brandon Marshall, peak Brandon Lloyd, young Demaryius Thomas, Davantae Adams, Josh Jacobs, and certainly better OLs than NE has.

Since you are one McDaniels supporters, what sort of numbers do you see coming from Maye and the offense? League average last year was 390 points scored and 5736 yards of offense. NE put up 289 points and 4964 yards. They would have needed 101 more points and 772 yards to get to average.

 

[Boston]

Sorry but this isn't fair...his QBs with the Pats outside of Brady were Cassel, Cam and Jones and I can say with a lot of confidence he got the very most out of all three of those guy...I really don't think that is even debatable.

IMO, you are only amplifying what I was pointing out: McDaniels with Brady, a ton of weapons, and a solid OL were great. Is it fair to expect this version of NE to be on par with the dynasty era Pats? No. But it's very fair to project them to again rank in the Bottom 10 offensively this year. Yes, Maye could be solid, but he has one career win so far. Not pinning that on him, but he still doesn't have much to work with, and he had very few pressure situations to deal with. I'm not saying he won't do well eventually, but I think we are a long way away from concluding he will be a Top 5 in the league type of QB year in and year out.

They had a juggernaut offense when Cassel had to step in (Moss and Welker in particular with one of the best OLs in the league). Yes, the QBs he's had to work with were not anywhere near Brady. That's a given. But he's had some good skill players to work with: Brandon Marshall, peak Brandon Lloyd, young Demaryius Thomas, Davantae Adams, Josh Jacobs, and certainly better OLs than NE has.

Since you are one McDaniels supporters, what sort of numbers do you see coming from Maye and the offense? League average last year was 390 points scored and 5736 yards of offense. NE put up 289 points and 4964 yards. They would have needed 101 more points and 772 yards to get to average.

I am a big McDaniels supporter as an OC...I am not worried about #'s this year but more about Maye's development because IMO that is the single most important thing for this franchise and I fully expect McDaniels to excel in that area...unless they hit it out of the park in the draft or make an unforseen trade #'s wise I still expect them to be mediocre on offense at best because he is still a second year QB with an iffy O-line and limited weapons...that being said I fully expect them to be light years better than the last two yeas and look like a professional unit that can at least play complimentary football with a good D and have a QB that can win a few close games in the 4th quarter...I am holding off on a big jump in #'s until 2026 when there has been more time to address the roster...I am all in on Maye and fully expect this O to be top 10 for a long period of time once the holes are filled but unfortunately the holes were so big it's not happening in one season.

 

[Zeppelin]

I'm interested how Detroit will look as well. Before Johnson came, the Lions the Lions were a 3 win team with the 25th (points) and 22nd (yards) offense. Dan Campbell was the head coach. Aaron Glenn the DC. They had Jared Goff at QB. D'Andre Swift/Jamaal Williams at RB. Amon-Ra St. Brown at WR. T.J. Hockenson at TE. So they weren't devoid of talent.

Enter Ben Johnson and the team wins 9 games and has the 5th (points) and 4th (yards offense). All due respect to Frank Ragnow, I don't think he was the missing piece on offense. Plus, I think the defense from 2021 to 2022 actually got worse.

2021 was a trainwreck, especially the offensive line. Ragnow is one of the best centers in the NFL and he only played 4 games. Taylor Decker only played 9 games. Halapoulivaati Vaitai, Matt Nelson, Evan Brown, and Tommy Kraemer started a combined 41 games. That line was terrible. Offensive coordinator, Anthony Lynn was terrible (a trainwreck by himself), but I don't think anyone, including Ben Johnson, could have schemed that team into a good offense. The projected starting WRs were Tyrell Williams and Breshad Perriman, who caught a combined 2 passes for 14 yards. St. Brown didn't get going until week 13. The rest were average at best. Swift and Williams each had 600 rushing yards.

Ben Johnson was one of the best in the game during his time here, no question. The Lions might take a step back this year, especially early in the year but I don't think it will be a big step. Hiring John Morton was underwhelming to me. But he was here in Johnson's first year when the offense was installed, so he does know the offense. We'll see how he does as the coordinator. In addition, this team is absolutely loaded with talent on offense and has one of the best offensive lines in the NFL. This team is going to score points. Frankly I'm not overly worried.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

I'm interested how Detroit will look as well. Before Johnson came, the Lions the Lions were a 3 win team with the 25th (points) and 22nd (yards) offense. Dan Campbell was the head coach. Aaron Glenn the DC. They had Jared Goff at QB. D'Andre Swift/Jamaal Williams at RB. Amon-Ra St. Brown at WR. T.J. Hockenson at TE. So they weren't devoid of talent.

Enter Ben Johnson and the team wins 9 games and has the 5th (points) and 4th (yards offense). All due respect to Frank Ragnow, I don't think he was the missing piece on offense. Plus, I think the defense from 2021 to 2022 actually got worse.

2021 was a trainwreck, especially the offensive line. Ragnow is one of the best centers in the NFL and he only played 4 games. Taylor Decker only played 9 games. Halapoulivaati Vaitai, Matt Nelson, Evan Brown, and Tommy Kraemer started a combined 41 games. That line was terrible. Offensive coordinator, Anthony Lynn was terrible (a trainwreck by himself), but I don't think anyone, including Ben Johnson, could have schemed that team into a good offense. The projected starting WRs were Tyrell Williams and Breshad Perriman, who caught a combined 2 passes for 14 yards. St. Brown didn't get going until week 13. The rest were average at best. Swift and Williams each had 600 rushing yards.

Ben Johnson was one of the best in the game during his time here, no question. The Lions might take a step back this year, especially early in the year but I don't think it will be a big step. Hiring John Morton was underwhelming to me. But he was here in Johnson's first year when the offense was installed, so he does know the offense. We'll see how he does as the coordinator. In addition, this team is absolutely loaded with talent on offense and has one of the best offensive lines in the NFL. This team is going to score points. Frankly I'm not overly worried.

And didn't the Lions keep adding offensive pieces along the way? Gibbs, Monty, LaPorta, Jamo. How many of those were there in 2021? Pretty sure the answer is zero.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Im curious how detroit looks. i think losing their oc could really impact them. dont think the others look different except the raiders but thats a whole new regime

well they'll probably remove the Jamo reverse option pass from the playbook

new OC John Morton was on staff in 2022 and helped install Ben Johnson's offense

other than swapping out Mahogany (who looked great in two spot starts as a rookie) for Zeitler at RG, all the players who scored 70 TDs while leading the league in scoring are back

probably be a little less glitter but given that Goff & ARSB have known Morton for over a decade (h.s. youth camps + previously was in the building) this should be seamless transition

on defense the new DC has been the LB coach since Holmes/Campbell arrived & is thought to be a future HC, so not really expecting anything radically different from a schematic point with either unit

we all know football is a funny game, though; given their difficult schedule it’s doubtful 15-2 is on the table

always love to see how teams will respond to inevitable adversity

 

[Snotbubbles]

I'm interested how Detroit will look as well. Before Johnson came, the Lions the Lions were a 3 win team with the 25th (points) and 22nd (yards) offense. Dan Campbell was the head coach. Aaron Glenn the DC. They had Jared Goff at QB. D'Andre Swift/Jamaal Williams at RB. Amon-Ra St. Brown at WR. T.J. Hockenson at TE. So they weren't devoid of talent.

Enter Ben Johnson and the team wins 9 games and has the 5th (points) and 4th (yards offense). All due respect to Frank Ragnow, I don't think he was the missing piece on offense. Plus, I think the defense from 2021 to 2022 actually got worse.

2021 was a trainwreck, especially the offensive line. Ragnow is one of the best centers in the NFL and he only played 4 games. Taylor Decker only played 9 games. Halapoulivaati Vaitai, Matt Nelson, Evan Brown, and Tommy Kraemer started a combined 41 games. That line was terrible. Offensive coordinator, Anthony Lynn was terrible (a trainwreck by himself), but I don't think anyone, including Ben Johnson, could have schemed that team into a good offense. The projected starting WRs were Tyrell Williams and Breshad Perriman, who caught a combined 2 passes for 14 yards. St. Brown didn't get going until week 13. The rest were average at best. Swift and Williams each had 600 rushing yards.

Ben Johnson was one of the best in the game during his time here, no question. The Lions might take a step back this year, especially early in the year but I don't think it will be a big step. Hiring John Morton was underwhelming to me. But he was here in Johnson's first year when the offense was installed, so he does know the offense. We'll see how he does as the coordinator. In addition, this team is absolutely loaded with talent on offense and has one of the best offensive lines in the NFL. This team is going to score points. Frankly I'm not overly worried.

And didn't the Lions keep adding offensive pieces along the way? Gibbs, Monty, LaPorta, Jamo. How many of those were there in 2021? Pretty sure the answer is zero.

From 2021 (pre-Johnson) to 2022 here are the changes:

2021 Depth Chart (snap %)
QB: Jared Goff (83.3%)
RB: Jamaal Williams (28.77%)/D'Andre Swift (50.82%)
WR: Amon-Ra St. Brown (74.05%)
WR: Kalif Raymond (67.33%)
WR: Josh Reynolds (30.22%)
TE: T.J. Hockenson (59.71%)
LT: Taylor Decker (48%)/Matt Nelson (61.25%)
LG: Jonah Jackson (94.1%)
C: Frank Ragnow (20.24%)/Evan Brown (68.51%)
RG: Halapoulivaati Vaitai (86.48%)
RT: Penei Sewell (94.28%)

2022 Depth Chart
QB: Jared Goff (99.21%)
RB: Jamaal Williams (40.19%)/D'Andre Swift (34.41%)
WR: Amon-Ra St. Brown (72.85%)
WR: Josh Reynolds (54.73%)
WR: Kalif Raymond (48.6%)
TE: Brock Wright (51.75%)
LT: Taylor Decker (100%)
LG: Jonah Jackson (75.13%)
C: Frank Ragnow (94.05%)
RG: Evan Brown (67.25%)
RT: Penei Sewell (100%)

So the difference here were: (1) Frank Ragnow played 70% more snaps in 2022 which allowed the Lions to move Evan Brown to RG instead of Vaitai; (2) Taylor Decker played 50% more snaps in 2022; and (3) T.J. Hockenson got traded after 7 games. They didn't added Gibbs, Montgomery and LaPorta until 2023.

 

[Zeppelin]

I'm interested how Detroit will look as well. Before Johnson came, the Lions the Lions were a 3 win team with the 25th (points) and 22nd (yards) offense. Dan Campbell was the head coach. Aaron Glenn the DC. They had Jared Goff at QB. D'Andre Swift/Jamaal Williams at RB. Amon-Ra St. Brown at WR. T.J. Hockenson at TE. So they weren't devoid of talent.

Enter Ben Johnson and the team wins 9 games and has the 5th (points) and 4th (yards offense). All due respect to Frank Ragnow, I don't think he was the missing piece on offense. Plus, I think the defense from 2021 to 2022 actually got worse.

2021 was a trainwreck, especially the offensive line. Ragnow is one of the best centers in the NFL and he only played 4 games. Taylor Decker only played 9 games. Halapoulivaati Vaitai, Matt Nelson, Evan Brown, and Tommy Kraemer started a combined 41 games. That line was terrible. Offensive coordinator, Anthony Lynn was terrible (a trainwreck by himself), but I don't think anyone, including Ben Johnson, could have schemed that team into a good offense. The projected starting WRs were Tyrell Williams and Breshad Perriman, who caught a combined 2 passes for 14 yards. St. Brown didn't get going until week 13. The rest were average at best. Swift and Williams each had 600 rushing yards.

Ben Johnson was one of the best in the game during his time here, no question. The Lions might take a step back this year, especially early in the year but I don't think it will be a big step. Hiring John Morton was underwhelming to me. But he was here in Johnson's first year when the offense was installed, so he does know the offense. We'll see how he does as the coordinator. In addition, this team is absolutely loaded with talent on offense and has one of the best offensive lines in the NFL. This team is going to score points. Frankly I'm not overly worried.

And didn't the Lions keep adding offensive pieces along the way? Gibbs, Monty, LaPorta, Jamo. How many of those were there in 2021? Pretty sure the answer is zero.

From 2021 (pre-Johnson) to 2022 here are the changes:

2021 Depth Chart (snap %)
QB: Jared Goff (83.3%)
RB: Jamaal Williams (28.77%)/D'Andre Swift (50.82%)
WR: Amon-Ra St. Brown (74.05%)
WR: Kalif Raymond (67.33%)
WR: Josh Reynolds (30.22%)
TE: T.J. Hockenson (59.71%)
LT: Taylor Decker (48%)/Matt Nelson (61.25%)
LG: Jonah Jackson (94.1%)
C: Frank Ragnow (20.24%)/Evan Brown (68.51%)
RG: Halapoulivaati Vaitai (86.48%)
RT: Penei Sewell (94.28%)

2022 Depth Chart
QB: Jared Goff (99.21%)
RB: Jamaal Williams (40.19%)/D'Andre Swift (34.41%)
WR: Amon-Ra St. Brown (72.85%)
WR: Josh Reynolds (54.73%)
WR: Kalif Raymond (48.6%)
TE: Brock Wright (51.75%)
LT: Taylor Decker (100%)
LG: Jonah Jackson (75.13%)
C: Frank Ragnow (94.05%)
RG: Evan Brown (67.25%)
RT: Penei Sewell (100%)

So the difference here were: (1) Frank Ragnow played 70% more snaps in 2022 which allowed the Lions to move Evan Brown to RG instead of Vaitai; (2) Taylor Decker played 50% more snaps in 2022; and (3) T.J. Hockenson got traded after 7 games. They didn't added Gibbs, Montgomery and LaPorta until 2023.

Ragnow and Decker missing that many snaps by themselves made the offensive line a disaster. Matt Nelson started 11 games. He was brutal. There is no comparison between the offensive lines for those reasons alone. In addition, Williams and Swift had 1200 rushing yards and 10 TDs in 2021 and 1600 yards and 22 TDs in 2022.

Basically the difference in snaps between Ragnow and Decker was a massive difference. You can't have linemen of that caliber missing that many snaps without a huge dropoff in performance.

 

[Snotbubbles]

I'm interested how Detroit will look as well. Before Johnson came, the Lions the Lions were a 3 win team with the 25th (points) and 22nd (yards) offense. Dan Campbell was the head coach. Aaron Glenn the DC. They had Jared Goff at QB. D'Andre Swift/Jamaal Williams at RB. Amon-Ra St. Brown at WR. T.J. Hockenson at TE. So they weren't devoid of talent.

Enter Ben Johnson and the team wins 9 games and has the 5th (points) and 4th (yards offense). All due respect to Frank Ragnow, I don't think he was the missing piece on offense. Plus, I think the defense from 2021 to 2022 actually got worse.

2021 was a trainwreck, especially the offensive line. Ragnow is one of the best centers in the NFL and he only played 4 games. Taylor Decker only played 9 games. Halapoulivaati Vaitai, Matt Nelson, Evan Brown, and Tommy Kraemer started a combined 41 games. That line was terrible. Offensive coordinator, Anthony Lynn was terrible (a trainwreck by himself), but I don't think anyone, including Ben Johnson, could have schemed that team into a good offense. The projected starting WRs were Tyrell Williams and Breshad Perriman, who caught a combined 2 passes for 14 yards. St. Brown didn't get going until week 13. The rest were average at best. Swift and Williams each had 600 rushing yards.

Ben Johnson was one of the best in the game during his time here, no question. The Lions might take a step back this year, especially early in the year but I don't think it will be a big step. Hiring John Morton was underwhelming to me. But he was here in Johnson's first year when the offense was installed, so he does know the offense. We'll see how he does as the coordinator. In addition, this team is absolutely loaded with talent on offense and has one of the best offensive lines in the NFL. This team is going to score points. Frankly I'm not overly worried.

And didn't the Lions keep adding offensive pieces along the way? Gibbs, Monty, LaPorta, Jamo. How many of those were there in 2021? Pretty sure the answer is zero.

From 2021 (pre-Johnson) to 2022 here are the changes:

2021 Depth Chart (snap %)
QB: Jared Goff (83.3%)
RB: Jamaal Williams (28.77%)/D'Andre Swift (50.82%)
WR: Amon-Ra St. Brown (74.05%)
WR: Kalif Raymond (67.33%)
WR: Josh Reynolds (30.22%)
TE: T.J. Hockenson (59.71%)
LT: Taylor Decker (48%)/Matt Nelson (61.25%)
LG: Jonah Jackson (94.1%)
C: Frank Ragnow (20.24%)/Evan Brown (68.51%)
RG: Halapoulivaati Vaitai (86.48%)
RT: Penei Sewell (94.28%)

2022 Depth Chart
QB: Jared Goff (99.21%)
RB: Jamaal Williams (40.19%)/D'Andre Swift (34.41%)
WR: Amon-Ra St. Brown (72.85%)
WR: Josh Reynolds (54.73%)
WR: Kalif Raymond (48.6%)
TE: Brock Wright (51.75%)
LT: Taylor Decker (100%)
LG: Jonah Jackson (75.13%)
C: Frank Ragnow (94.05%)
RG: Evan Brown (67.25%)
RT: Penei Sewell (100%)

So the difference here were: (1) Frank Ragnow played 70% more snaps in 2022 which allowed the Lions to move Evan Brown to RG instead of Vaitai; (2) Taylor Decker played 50% more snaps in 2022; and (3) T.J. Hockenson got traded after 7 games. They didn't added Gibbs, Montgomery and LaPorta until 2023.

Ragnow and Decker missing that many snaps by themselves made the offensive line a disaster. Matt Nelson started 11 games. He was brutal. There is no comparison between the offensive lines for those reasons alone. In addition, Williams and Swift had 1200 rushing yards and 10 TDs in 2021 and 1600 yards and 22 TDs in 2022.

Basically the difference in snaps between Ragnow and Decker was a massive difference. You can't have linemen of that caliber missing that many snaps without a huge dropoff in performance.

Sure you can. Case in point. The 2017 Philadelphia Eagles lost HOF, PB, AP left tackle Jason Peters in game 7 of the season. They replaced them with a guy who was on the Lions 2021 line, Halapoulivaati Vaitai. The 2017 Eagles, scored 90 more points and rushed for 300 more yards.

Edit: I'll add, look at the 2023 Lions defense v. the 2024 Lions defense. The 2024 Lions defense was decimated by injury. But they gave up 53 less points. By your line of reasoning, the players the Lions lost on defense in 2024 should have led to a "huge dropoff in performance."

 

[Zeppelin]

Sure you can. Case in point. The 2017 Philadelphia Eagles lost HOF, PB, AP left tackle Jason Peters in game 7 of the season. They replaced them with a guy who was on the Lions 2021 line, Halapoulivaati Vaitai. The 2017 Eagles, scored 90 more points and rushed for 300 more yards.

You didn't have to replace Peters with someone like Matt Nelson that can't play a lick. You also didn't lose Kelce for 13 games like we did with Ragnow. You also had one of the best rosters in the NFL and we had arguably the worst roster in the NFL in 2021.

There is no comparison between your 13 win team and our 3 win team.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Sure you can. Case in point. The 2017 Philadelphia Eagles lost HOF, PB, AP left tackle Jason Peters in game 7 of the season. They replaced them with a guy who was on the Lions 2021 line, Halapoulivaati Vaitai. The 2017 Eagles, scored 90 more points and rushed for 300 more yards.

You didn't have to replace Peters with someone like Matt Nelson that can't play a lick. You also didn't lose Kelce for 13 games like we did with Ragnow. You also had one of the best rosters in the NFL and we had arguably the worst roster in the NFL in 2021.

There is no comparison between your 13 win team and our 3 win team.

Fair point, so then the 2023 Detroit Lions defense was better than the 2024 version that had all the injuries.

2023 defense gave up 395 points. The 2024 defense gave up 342 points.

That 2024 Lions defense didn't lose any important players, did they?

 

[Moonlight]

Im curious how detroit looks. i think losing their oc could really impact them. dont think the others look different except the raiders but thats a whole new regime

In my eyes how the OC change effects Goff is perhaps most important. My sense of it was that Goff was nursed back to health after the Rams dumped him off to Detroit. Lions offense was poor at the start of Goff's first year with the Lions. Lions were winless and Campbell fired Anthony Lynn as OC midseason.
Campbell announced that he was taking over as play caller but this also coincided with Ben Johnson who was TE coach taking on more responsibility in the passing game as passing game coordinator.
The Lions offense then improved, they won a few games and Ben Johnson was named OC the next year.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

well they'll probably remove the Jamo reverse option pass from the playbook

lol

 

[Zeppelin]

Sure you can. Case in point. The 2017 Philadelphia Eagles lost HOF, PB, AP left tackle Jason Peters in game 7 of the season. They replaced them with a guy who was on the Lions 2021 line, Halapoulivaati Vaitai. The 2017 Eagles, scored 90 more points and rushed for 300 more yards.

You didn't have to replace Peters with someone like Matt Nelson that can't play a lick. You also didn't lose Kelce for 13 games like we did with Ragnow. You also had one of the best rosters in the NFL and we had arguably the worst roster in the NFL in 2021.

There is no comparison between your 13 win team and our 3 win team.

Fair point, so then the 2023 Detroit Lions defense was better than the 2024 version that had all the injuries.

2023 defense gave up 395 points. The 2024 defense gave up 342 points.

That 2024 Lions defense didn't lose any important players, did they?

Before the Buffalo game, which was before Alim McNeill and Carlton Davis got hurt, the Lions were well inside the top 10 defenses and allowed 17 ppg...and half of those games were without Hutchinson. After that they allowed 139 points in the last 5.

I said many times in the Lions thread that they're defense was still pretty damn good prior to the McNeill and Davis injuries. The 2023 defense was never good, especially the corners. All you need to know about the 2023 defense is we started Kindle Vildor and Cam Sutton at corner and both were terrible all year.

Stats don't tell the whole story. Anyone who watched the Lions play all year could see the night and day difference between 2023 and 2024, even with the injuries.

 

[Zeppelin]

Anyways, I don't want to take anything away from Ben Johnson because he did a phenomenal job while he was here.

 

[Scoresman]

My thoughts on new OCs and how they will factor into my projections

Bears - Less about the OC, more about Ben Johnson. I don't know who won't be giving the entire team a bump, but I still keep in the back of my mind that this is still the Bears. Also, have nop idea who will be their starting RB yet.

Browns - Probably wont factor much into how I project them. Cant really project them worse than how they performed last year.

Cowboys - Again, not much impact due to the internal promotion. Schottenheimer still to call the plays.

Lions - Downgrades across the board. Mostly due to regression, not the OC hire. But you should at least attribute part of the Lions' success to Ben Johnson.

Texans - Unknown commodity at OC but he was a TE coach so maybe more TE usage? Probably wont factor in too much to my projections.

Jaguars - More about the HC hire than the OC, but I will be bumping their players like everyone else will be. But not by much. I think the talent in Tampa was better than what Coen will have in JAX.

Raiders - Caroll and Kelly will be an interesting combo, but not bumping anyone a lot here.

Patriots - McDaniels offenses heavily feature slot receivers and TEs, but we're talking Demario Douglas and Hunter Henry here, so how high can you really project them?

Saints - Kellen Moore will be calling the plays and I think it's a good bump for almost everyone. If he brings the Tush Push to NO, maybe Kamara gets a slight downgrade? Kamara also relies on receptions and Moore's offenses have never excelled at generating RB targets.

Jets - No real impact. Still think they will be a trainwreck.

Eagles - Promotion from within, probably not much to see here.

49ers - Who cares. The offense is 100% run by Shanahan.

Seahawks - Probably a bump to RB receptions and carries. Not much impact elsewhere.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Patullo has been sirianni’s right hand man for many years . Considering the fact that almost all of the personnel will be the same and I think Sirianni liked the offense last year, I would be surprised if it’s too much different. One possibility is that Sirianni would trust patullo to do things a little differently and make the offense better, but my assumption is that one way or the other they will operate similarly for the majority of the season.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

TB also. Josh Grizzard.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Sure you can. Case in point. The 2017 Philadelphia Eagles lost HOF, PB, AP left tackle Jason Peters in game 7 of the season. They replaced them with a guy who was on the Lions 2021 line, Halapoulivaati Vaitai. The 2017 Eagles, scored 90 more points and rushed for 300 more yards.

You didn't have to replace Peters with someone like Matt Nelson that can't play a lick. You also didn't lose Kelce for 13 games like we did with Ragnow. You also had one of the best rosters in the NFL and we had arguably the worst roster in the NFL in 2021.

There is no comparison between your 13 win team and our 3 win team.

Fair point, so then the 2023 Detroit Lions defense was better than the 2024 version that had all the injuries.

2023 defense gave up 395 points. The 2024 defense gave up 342 points.

That 2024 Lions defense didn't lose any important players, did they?

Before the Buffalo game, which was before Alim McNeill and Carlton Davis got hurt, the Lions were well inside the top 10 defenses and allowed 17 ppg...and half of those games were without Hutchinson. After that they allowed 139 points in the last 5.

I said many times in the Lions thread that they're defense was still pretty damn good prior to the McNeill and Davis injuries. The 2023 defense was never good, especially the corners. All you need to know about the 2023 defense is we started Kindle Vildor and Cam Sutton at corner and both were terrible all year.

Stats don't tell the whole story. Anyone who watched the Lions play all year could see the night and day difference between 2023 and 2024, even with the injuries.

Why do you think the Lions defense in 2024 was able to lose so many players and continue to play at a high level. Up-thread you didn't think coaching would matter. What was the difference here?

 

[Zeppelin]

Why do you think the Lions defense in 2024 was able to lose so many players and continue to play at a high level. Up-thread you didn't think coaching would matter. What was the difference here?

I never said coaching didn't matter (it does) and I don't recall saying anything about the coaches on the defense. The only thing I remember saying was that the offense might take a step back because of losing Ben Johnson but, because of the high end talent, that I don't think it will be a big step back. I think it could be tougher early in the season because of adjusting to not only the new coordinators but to several changes with the position coaches (same with the defense). You never know how new play callers will do. Time will tell.

As for the defense last year, they played at a high level even after losing Hutchinson and others, but, aside from the last Vikings game, they weren't good at all after losing Alim McNeill and Carlton Davis (which I already mentioned) so I'm only going to reference the defense before those injuries.

As far as the defense playing at a high level up to the above two injuries, the secondary was the biggest reason, namely the CBs. In 2023 Cam Sutton and Kindle Vildor were starters. They were terrible and so was whoever played nickel. Last year it was Carlton Davis, Terrion Arnold, and Amik Robertson. Massive improvement.

Second is the improvement of the younger players, namely Joseph, Branch, McNeill, Hutchinson (prior to his injury, Onwuzurike, and Jack Campbell. They all took a big step forward from 2023 to 2024.

Lastly, I don't think position coaches get enough credit for what they do, especially developing young players. In particular, last year we signed defensive line coach Terrell Williams, who I think is the best D-line coach in the league. What he did with the D-line given the massive number of injuries was incredible in my opinion.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Lastly, I don't think position coaches get enough credit for what they do, especially developing young players.

This is a great point. Developing position coaches is an important part in developing young players. And, if you're developing good assistant coaches, you're also gonna lose them. The wheel never stops turning.

 

[Ruffrodys05]

Lastly, I don't think position coaches get enough credit for what they do, especially developing young players.

This is a great point. Developing position coaches is an important part in developing young players. And, if you're developing good assistant coaches, you're also gonna lose them. The wheel never stops turning.

Definitely agree. Good position coaches get poached. Just look at Andy Reids tenure in Philly. These are just some of the position coaches Reid lost to better opportunities.

Sean McDermott
John Harbaugh
Brad Childress
Pat Shurmur
Ron Riviera
Leslie Frazier
Steve Spagnuolo
David Culley

All of these positional coaches became Head Coaches, except for Culley. McDermott and Harbaugh remain HC's of the Bills and Ravens, respectively.

Losing top coordinators after a Super Bowl run or victory just seems commonplace anymore. The Eagles were going to lose Kellen Moore, win-or-lose the Super Bowl. Hell, they were going to lose him whether or not they even made the Super Bowl.

Apologies for tangent, back to the OP discussion......

I am glad the Eagles have hired someone in-house to take over offensive coordinator duties. The base offensive philosophies from 2024 should remain intact. Maybe with a new wrinkle or two. Aside from somehow retaining Moore, I believe the Eagles have made the correct decision here. As a result, I think the Eagles offensive philosophy for 2025 will be the least affected by a coordinator change, as opposed to other franchises with coordinator turnover in '25.

 

[Zeppelin]

Lastly, I don't think position coaches get enough credit for what they do, especially developing young players.

This is a great point. Developing position coaches is an important part in developing young players. And, if you're developing good assistant coaches, you're also gonna lose them. The wheel never stops turning.

Definitely agree. Good position coaches get poached. Just look at Andy Reids tenure in Philly. These are just some of the position coaches Reid lost to better opportunities.

Sean McDermott
John Harbaugh
Brad Childress
Pat Shurmur
Ron Riviera
Leslie Frazier
Steve Spagnuolo
David Culley

All of these positional coaches became Head Coaches, except for Culley. McDermott and Harbaugh remain HC's of the Bills and Ravens, respectively.

Losing top coordinators after a Super Bowl run or victory just seems commonplace anymore. The Eagles were going to lose Kellen Moore, win-or-lose the Super Bowl. Hell, they were going to lose him whether or not they even made the Super Bowl.

Apologies for tangent, back to the OP discussion......

I am glad the Eagles have hired someone in-house to take over offensive coordinator duties. The base offensive philosophies from 2024 should remain intact. Maybe with a new wrinkle or two. Aside from somehow retaining Moore, I believe the Eagles have made the correct decision here. As a result, I think the Eagles offensive philosophy for 2025 will be the least affected by a coordinator change, as opposed to other franchises with coordinator turnover in '25.

David Culley was head coach of the Texans for one year, don't recall when.

 

[Desert_Power]

I'm really interested in the Seattle situation. New Orleans came out of the gate on fire on offense last year before injuries, but let Kubiak walk to Seattle. Seems like he was a strong proponent of getting Darnold. Not predicting how good the team could be but there is a potential for a fantasy points bonanza here.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

I'm trying to focus on under the radar situations. And the following to me are pretty interesting...

Seattle - I'm clearly in the minority, but I'm a believer in Darnold. Underdog rankings have him as QB27. When I think back to his FA, he was linked to PIT potentially, but it always seemed SEA was in the drivers seat here and I think that's in large part because Darnold identified Kubiak as someone who could help him continue his career ascent. And as a QB who likely understands how important that dynamic is based on bad (and good) experiences, feels like SEA being a bit undersold.

Vegas - Kelly obviously flamed out as an NFL HC (and even college), but he and Carroll are both married to the run game. Whether its Jeanty or another rookie RB, that player will be a central focus.

Texans - This time last year, the Slowik/Stroud partnership was spoken about with reverence. Now <checks notes> Nick Caley is being entrusted here to get Stroud back on track. Warren Sharp hated Slowik and his stubborn commitment to the run and his fast downfall suggests they want to lean on Stroud who is QB18 at the moment. He was overdrafted last year...but potential here for being underdrafted in 2025.

Jaguars - I'm intrigued insofar as how quickly Doug Pederson wore out his welcome in two situations now after early success. And IMO...there is more talent here than I think people realize. One of my sleeper teams