Libertarian Thread (Was: Gary Johnson Thread) (2 Viewers)

[Koya]

Insanity - Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different outcomes. That's basically the Trump campaign right now vs. how it operated during the Republican primaries. People are looking for a lifeboat who are moderate Republicans, or are just flat out not on board with Trump as the nominee. It has arrived in the form of Johnson/Weld if they evaluate the Libertarian ticket vs. Trump Pence with an open mind.

Im sure many people wanted to give Trump as many chances as possible, even though they felt uncomfortable.  Let the convention happen and the party unify.  Get a convention bounce and a more targeted message / stay on message. Begin mending fences within the party and then look to tackle new ground.

Instead, it's just groundhog day. Wouldn't surprise me if a number of people are seeing today, a week plus past the convention, as a point where if it ain't changed yet, it won't change from here out. Judging by the very public GOP defections to actually vote FOR Hillary coming out over the past few days, it makes sense that those who either "can't/won't" vote Hill/Dem or those who are  just now admitting it won't be Trump and don't yet know where they will land are in large part landing on the Libertarian ticket.

 

[humpback]

How can any self respecting FBG vote Trump when Eminence is the one who started his ***OFFICIAL*** thread?

Em started that one, Tim started the Hillary one, and MT started this one- let that sink in for a second.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Honestly, if this ticket were reversed, I don't think 15% would be a question.  

I mentioned earlier how one of GJ's big detractions is his inability to sometimes clearly eloquate the base issue.  Thats a talking point, and providing context (telling stories as you put it). And general doofiness (I keep going back to that awful Samantha Bee showing).

But Bill Weld has been around a long time and this is literally the first time I've ever heard him describe himself as a libertarian.  He's kind of a weird choice as the #2, he'd be really weird to top a libertarian ticket. 

 

[SwampDawg]

I just hope the Dem's and Rep's don't try and sabotage the Johnson campaign, I honestly believe each would rather see the other win and keep the current system then allow a third party to gain traction. 1992 was the first year I was old enough to vote and man what an interesting year, Perot had them on the ropes until the rumor is they started planning personal attacks on his families character.  Gary Johnson go watch this if you get in the debates and see how to blame both parties and sell your approach. 1992 Presidential Debate - Perot, Bush, Clinton

 

[Yankee23Fan]

It's time for the GOP members, supporters and voters that can't stand Trump to get behind this ticket.  He is more republican than not, was a very good Governor.  I don't see any way for him to win with the way the map breaks down for Hillary.  But it's time for the GOP to be fractured permenantly and this is the best place to start.

 

[mquinnjr]

It's time for the GOP members, supporters and voters that can't stand Trump to get behind this ticket.  He is more republican than not, was a very good Governor.  I don't see any way for him to win with the way the map breaks down for Hillary.  But it's time for the GOP to be fractured permenantly and this is the best place to start.

A loss in November, while it will sting for R's, is the one step backwards the party needs to take to either take two forward or become what the Libertarian party was while the Libertarian party emerges as the new, modernized Republican party. They nominated Donald Trump for president, this scenario would be the rock bottom needed to re-emerge stronger after 8 years of Hillary and 16 of Democratic rule.

 

[The Commish]

Em started that one, Tim started the Hillary one, and MT started this one- let that sink in for a second.

 

 

[Rich Conway]

A loss in November, while it will sting for R's, is the one step backwards the party needs to take to either take two forward or become what the Libertarian party was while the Libertarian party emerges as the new, modernized Republican party. They nominated Donald Trump for president, this scenario would be the rock bottom needed to re-emerge stronger after 8 years of Hillary and 16 of Democratic rule.

I don't see it.  Ted Cruz will push the narrative that Trump wasn't a true conservative (besides being bat#### crazy), and that the party needs to move towards its religious, right-wing base.  2020 may well be worse for the GOP.

 

[The Commish]

A loss in November, while it will sting for R's, is the one step backwards the party needs to take to either take two forward or become what the Libertarian party was while the Libertarian party emerges as the new, modernized Republican party. They nominated Donald Trump for president, this scenario would be the rock bottom needed to re-emerge stronger after 8 years of Hillary and 16 of Democratic rule.

I don't see it.  Ted Cruz will push the narrative that Trump wasn't a true conservative (besides being bat#### crazy), and that the party needs to move towards its religious, right-wing base.  2020 may well be worse for the GOP.

The only issue I see with this becoming the narrative is Ted Cruz trumpeting it.  Does anyone listen to this guy?  Will he be able to convince the party they weren't just slapped right in the face with a wake up call?

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I don't see it.  Ted Cruz will push the narrative that Trump wasn't a true conservative (besides being bat#### crazy), and that the party needs to move towards its religious, right-wing base.  2020 may well be worse for the GOP.

As luck would have it, Ted Cruz represents a state that didn't much care for his opposition to Trump.  His poll numbers in Texas are in the sewer, and he's extremely likely to be defeaTED in a primary.  That wouldn't preclude a social conservative.  It's just unlikely to be Cruz.

 

[mquinnjr]

The only issue I see with this becoming the narrative is Ted Cruz trumpeting it.  Does anyone listen to this guy?  Will he be able to convince the party they weren't just slapped right in the face with a wake up call?

Oh, I fully assume a loss in 2020 as 2016 is it. It's pretty hard to unseat an incumbent president, no matter what party they are a part of.

 

[The Commish]

The only issue I see with this becoming the narrative is Ted Cruz trumpeting it.  Does anyone listen to this guy?  Will he be able to convince the party they weren't just slapped right in the face with a wake up call?

Oh, I fully assume a loss in 2020 as 2016 is it. It's pretty hard to unseat an incumbent president, no matter what party they are a part of.

I wouldn't.  Whoever is elected is going to start out with the worst favorable numbers in history.  

 

[trogg78]

I wouldn't.  Whoever is elected is going to start out with the worst favorable numbers in history.  

So they can only go up.

 

[Koya]

But Bill Weld has been around a long time and this is literally the first time I've ever heard him describe himself as a libertarian.  He's kind of a weird choice as the #2, he'd be really weird to top a libertarian ticket. 

Others have also noted that, and upon reflection it makes sense.

Which goes back to my post a few days back - I question whether the Libertarian party is a truly viable vehicle for a successful alternative option.  There really is such an opportunity to actually have structural change in terms of who / what the parties are (since uh, Zach Taylor or whatever? ) with potential irreparable cracks in the Republican party as we know it - could a true third party emerge, not ideologically bound to the hard tenets of Libertarianism, while also free from the "crazier" elements of their base, that has a strong spirit of what Libertarians believe in, but with some policy / reality check solutions/compromises?

Say:

* Equal rights and protections for all, including the LBGTQ community

* More gun control than the Libertarian platform, but still a root belief in access to guns and the 2nd amendment and no baby with the bathwater solutions like the Dems at times.

* Less, but not no, federal role in education (some base metrics / continuities, make sure its a real, aka science based, curriculum, but then let the States handle details)

* Slightly more hawkish / less retracting militarily than current platform, but far less hawkish than Hill and the Hill have been (only say this because a strong military resonates with a certain base and I could see this as a compromise outcome)

* Legalized Weed and some reform to harder drugs

Just a few platform items, all of which have some tie (and some are the same as) the Libertarian platforms. But with some minor adjustments, especially in the underlying hardcore Libertarian strains, you could have a huge opportunity. 

 

[The Commish]

So they can only go up.

Agreed.  I'm willing to bet they stay pretty close to the same as a net number.  The demographics will probably change with respect to who likes/dislikes her though.

 

[trogg78]

Agreed.  I'm willing to bet they stay pretty close to the same as a net number.  The demographics will probably change with respect to who likes/dislikes her though.

I imagine when people who never had any paid leave suddenly get it...they'll come around to be with her.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Seems to me that Weld was put on the ticket as an overt appeal to Republicans that disliked Trump, who was already the likely nominee at that point.  And I agree with Commish that we shouldn't assume 8 years are a given for the next President.

 

[The Commish]

Agreed.  I'm willing to bet they stay pretty close to the same as a net number.  The demographics will probably change with respect to who likes/dislikes her though.

I imagine when people who never had any paid leave suddenly get it...they'll come around to be with her.

Assuming you are talking about paid maternity leave etc....and I'd agree.  Though all women should be voting for her this time around as they've been warned there is a special place in hell for women who don't vote for her.  Of course she has to get to it at some point.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Seems to me that Weld was put on the ticket as an overt appeal to Republicans that disliked Trump, who was already the likely nominee at that point.  And I agree with Commish that we shouldn't assume 8 years are a given for the next President.

The problem is that I don't see how that's a very big percentage of the Republican party.  God bless, Bill Weld.  I love me some Rockefeller Republicans, but Kasich (who is no Rockefeller Republican) had to scramble like hell to avoid an 0fer by winning his own state.  Mike Huntsman came with a whimper in 2012. 

I don't know what the centrist coalition looks like.  I'm not sure there is one.  Many centrists believe the Democrats are too weak on foreign policy.  Johnson believes both parties are too interventionist. 

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

The problem is that I don't see how that's a very big percentage of the Republican party.  God bless, Bill Weld.  I love me some Rockefeller Republicans, but Kasich (who is no Rockefeller Republican) had to scramble like hell to avoid an 0fer by winning his own state.  Mike Huntsman came with a whimper in 2012. 

I don't know what the centrist coalition looks like.  I'm not sure there is one.  Many centrists believe the Democrats are too weak on foreign policy.  Johnson believes both parties are too interventionist. 

Johnson got like 2% last time around.  I don't think he harbors any illusions he's going to win.  It would have to be considered a success if he can end up cobbling together over 10% with a coalition of true libertarians and NeverTrump Republicans and some Independents and NeverHillary Democrats.

 

[The Commish]

When is Johnson/Weld's next appearance on TV....like their last townhall?

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Johnson got like 2% last time around.  I don't think he harbors any illusions he's going to win.  It would have to be considered a success if he can end up cobbling together over 10% with a coalition of true libertarians and NeverTrump Republicans and some Independents and NeverHillary Democrats.

That just seems like an unlikely coalition to coalesce behind the Libertarian Party for any sustained period of time. There really isn't a Libertarian wing of the Democratic Party.  There is a small Libertarian wing of the Republican party.  And there's a larger establishment wing of the Republican Party that could probably easily pivot to the Libertarian wing while still being able to feel like they were being faithful to the party of Reagan. 

Seems to me that a win for the Libertarian party has less to do with the total percentage of the electorate and more to do with the percentage of Republican leaning voters. 

 

[badmojo1006]

Can somebody explain Johnson's Tax Plan? Also his Federal spending plan?

I looked at some stuff, but I want to hear from a supporter.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

That just seems like an unlikely coalition to coalesce behind the Libertarian Party for any sustained period of time. There really isn't a Libertarian wing of the Democratic Party.  There is a small Libertarian wing of the Republican party.  And there's a larger establishment wing of the Republican Party that could probably easily pivot to the Libertarian wing while still being able to feel like they were being faithful to the party of Reagan. 

Seems to me that a win for the Libertarian party has less to do with the total percentage of the electorate and more to do with the percentage of Republican leaning voters. 

If that coalition gets Johnson and Weld into the debates and gets the Libertarians public financing in future elections, those are big steps towards establishing a national brand.  We're talking about a party with no Senators or Congressmen or Governors or any other statewide officeholders, I think.  I've heard a lot of libertarians argue that there's a huge percentage of the population receptive to their ideas, but those ideas don't get a fair airing due to media bias and perceptions that they can't win.  If they're right*, then the attention they get from this election could help them in attracting "real" libertarians to their party.

*This is a big if.      

 

[joffer]

never understood the "i won't vote for him because he can't win" mindset

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Can somebody explain Johnson's Tax Plan? Also his Federal spending plan?

I looked at some stuff, but I want to hear from a supporter.

I've heard the tax plan referred to as the Fair Tax, in which case you can peruse the gigantic thread here.  In any case, he favors eventually replacing the federal income tax with a consumption tax and abolishing the IRS. 

Best I can tell on a spending plan is that he wants to cut spending by 43% pretty much across the board and leave the administration of any entitlements to the states as no-strings-attached block grants. 

 

[The Commish]

Can somebody explain Johnson's Tax Plan? Also his Federal spending plan?

I looked at some stuff, but I want to hear from a supporter.

He wants to move to a consumption based tax.  You pay more the more you consume.

 

[badmojo1006]

I've heard the tax plan referred to as the Fair Tax, in which case you can peruse the gigantic thread here.  In any case, he favors eventually replacing the federal income tax with a consumption tax and abolishing the IRS. 

Best I can tell on a spending plan is that he wants to cut spending by 43% pretty much across the board and leave the administration of any entitlements to the states as no-strings-attached block grants. 

OK I will check out the Fair Tax Thread.

So cut the Federal spending almost in half? That is a lot

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

never understood the "i won't vote for him because he can't win" mindset

Who's articulated that?  Let's concede that he can't win.  The question is whether this ticket can make significant, lasting gains that will affect future elections.  That's hard.  The Reform Party largely failed at that.

 

[dickey moe]

Others have also noted that, and upon reflection it makes sense.

Which goes back to my post a few days back - I question whether the Libertarian party is a truly viable vehicle for a successful alternative option.  There really is such an opportunity to actually have structural change in terms of who / what the parties are (since uh, Zach Taylor or whatever? ) with potential irreparable cracks in the Republican party as we know it - could a true third party emerge, not ideologically bound to the hard tenets of Libertarianism, while also free from the "crazier" elements of their base, that has a strong spirit of what Libertarians believe in, but with some policy / reality check solutions/compromises?

Say:

* Equal rights and protections for all, including the LBGTQ community

* More gun control than the Libertarian platform, but still a root belief in access to guns and the 2nd amendment and no baby with the bathwater solutions like the Dems at times.

* Less, but not no, federal role in education (some base metrics / continuities, make sure its a real, aka science based, curriculum, but then let the States handle details)

* Slightly more hawkish / less retracting militarily than current platform, but far less hawkish than Hill and the Hill have been (only say this because a strong military resonates with a certain base and I could see this as a compromise outcome)

* Legalized Weed and some reform to harder drugs

Just a few platform items, all of which have some tie (and some are the same as) the Libertarian platforms. But with some minor adjustments, especially in the underlying hardcore Libertarian strains, you could have a huge opportunity. 

You left out the most important policy point: less federal involvement in our economy.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Can somebody explain Johnson's Tax Plan? Also his Federal spending plan?

I looked at some stuff, but I want to hear from a supporter.

His tax plan is basically the Fair Tax to be implemented over time.  Well, maybe not the Fair Tax specifically, but a national consumption tax do to away with almost all of the IRS code.

His spending plan is basically a real balanced budget provided to Congress immediately - not some save 20 trillion over 45 years type thing but a balanced budget and has said that no department of the government will be immune to cuts to get there, meaning mainly military spending.  And he would veto deficit spending.  There was a time years ago where he claimed he would cut the budget 40% and introduce legislation to create room in federal law for states to declare bankruptcy if necessary because he would never sign anything that gave federal money to bail them out of their mess.

 If you want more....... He actually understands the issue better than TrumpGOP and favors limited government in everything as opposed to Clinton.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

never understood the "i won't vote for him because he can't win" mindset

I think the mindset makes sense if you have a strong preference between the two major party candidates.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

OK I will check out the Fair Tax Thread.

So cut the Federal spending almost in half? That is a lot

The Fair Tax is awesome.  Just be prepared to be blown away by its awesomeness while you read.  Might want to grab yourself a drink of fine bourbon while you do to enjoy it more.

 

[Koya]

You left out the most important policy point: less federal involvement in our economy.

Even more resonant, I'd suggest tax reform.  A third party could be the (only?) way to interject a realistic discussion here. Whether its consumption and/or flat or whatever.  Plenty of examples where the answer is not coming from the interest driven dems or lunatic coming apart at the seams republicans. 

 

[badmojo1006]

His tax plan is basically the Fair Tax to be implemented over time.  Well, maybe not the Fair Tax specifically, but a national consumption tax do to away with almost all of the IRS code.

His spending plan is basically a real balanced budget provided to Congress immediately - not some save 20 trillion over 45 years type thing but a balanced budget and has said that no department of the government will be immune to cuts to get there, meaning mainly military spending.  And he would veto deficit spending.  There was a time years ago where he claimed he would cut the budget 40% and introduce legislation to create room in federal law for states to declare bankruptcy if necessary because he would never sign anything that gave federal money to bail them out of their mess.

 If you want more....... He actually understands the issue better than TrumpGOP and favors limited government in everything as opposed to Clinton.

That would probably throw hundred of thousands of people out of work if done immediately

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Not allowing deficit spending during a recession would also be a very unpopular position with most mainstream economists.  Seems like a disaster waiting to happen.   But obviously, I'm not Johnson's target audience. 

 

[skol asylum]

You left out the most important policy point: less federal involvement in our economy.

Can you unpack this a bit more? I'm actually of the mindset the government has a crucial role to play in helping maintain the stability of our economy. 

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Not allowing deficit spending during a recession would also be a very unpopular position with most mainstream economists.  Seems like a disaster waiting to happen.   But obviously, I'm not Johnson's target audience. 

Yeah, while I'm very much a limited government guy I fully appreciate the need for deficit spending and don't see it as a boogeyman.  

 

[dickey moe]

Can you unpack this a bit more? I'm actually of the mindset the government has a crucial role to play in helping maintain the stability of our economy. 

Can you unpack "economic stability" a little more? If you feel the last couple of administrations have simply attempted to maintain economic stability then you and I probably aren't going to agree on much, especially in a thread geared toward a discussion of libertarian policy.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

That would probably throw hundred of thousands of people out of work if done immediately

Ok?

 

[dickey moe]

Yeah, while I'm very much a limited government guy I fully appreciate the need for deficit spending and don't see it as a boogeyman.  

Only if balanced by disciplined surplusses during booms, which never freaking happens.

 

[skol asylum]

Can you unpack "economic stability" a little more? If you feel the last couple of administrations have simply attempted to maintain economic stability then you and I probably aren't going to agree on much, especially in a thread geared toward a discussion of libertarian policy.

Not letting the free market drive massive swings in unemployment, inflation or deflation, or the value of the dollar. At the same time, i think we should enforce the break up of monopolies which provide inherent risk to our economy. There should be no enterprise too big to fail.

 

[Steve Tasker]

The problem is that I don't see how that's a very big percentage of the Republican party.  God bless, Bill Weld.  I love me some Rockefeller Republicans, but Kasich (who is no Rockefeller Republican) had to scramble like hell to avoid an 0fer by winning his own state.  Mike Huntsman came with a whimper in 2012. 

I don't know what the centrist coalition looks like.  I'm not sure there is one.  Many centrists believe the Democrats are too weak on foreign policy.  Johnson believes both parties are too interventionist. 

Huntsman was so anonymous that you got his name wrong and no one noticed....

(Huntsman was by far my favorite R/D candidate of my voting-age life and I may very well have voted for him for president)

 

[nirad3]

Nothing really to add other than I agree with those saying that Weld was probably a little more impressive in the Town Hall than Johnson, save for the diatribe on marijuana. 

Still, love the ticket and plan on voting Libertarian for sure. 

 

[dickey moe]

Not letting the free market drive massive swings in unemployment, inflation or deflation, or the value of the dollar. 

Rather than the "free market," which is anything but these days, I think the federal government's policies and its incestuous relationship with the Federal Reserve bears most of the responsibilities for the negative aspects of the things you mentioned, but as I said before, we're probably not going to agree on that.

 

[skol asylum]

Rather than the "free market," which is anything but these days, I think the federal government's policies and its incestuous relationship with the Federal Reserve bears most of the responsibilities for the negative aspects of the things you mentioned, but as I said before, we're probably not going to agree on that.

Oh no i completely agree with that. Which is why i say we need to shrink the power of institutions to affect government policy.

 

[Eminence]

Pretty much summarizes the base base the Donald attracts.

Stupid AND racist? Where do I get in line!

I don't think much of you either.

 

[Tom Servo]

POLITICO: Debate sites drawing up plans for 3-person podium
 

The venues that will host the presidential debates are drawing up plans for a three-person forum that would provide a lectern for a third-party candidate to stand on stage next to Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.

The directive comes from producers working for the Commission on Presidential Debates and it’s meant, they say, to force the university hosts to be prepared and not as a reflection of the state of the race. But it could give supporters of Libertarian Gary Johnson and Green Party nominee Jill Stein hope as they push an alternative to the historically unpopular major party nominees.

 

[dgreen]

Not that it will happen, but Stein should endorse Johnson to help him get to 15% in the polls. Third Parties Unite!

 

[NCCommish]

Not sure if that happens. Johnson would appeal to moderate Republicans disenfranchised with Trump, which CNN probably wouldn't take issue with. Stein would attract disenfranchised Bernie voters, got to think Hillary's not signing off on a CNN town hall serving that purpose.

Actually as a Bernie person I wouldn't vote for Stein. More likely to go Johnson. Stein is kind of anti-science as is the party with its endorsement of stuff like homeopathy and her running mate is a loon extremist. And the stuff both Stein and her VP have said about Bernie turned me off completely. She called him a traitor, he called him a tool of white supremacy.

Johnson is a little goofy. And I certainly don't agree with him on everything but he isn't a loon or an extremist.