What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Libya is imploding (1 Viewer)

If you think that 2011 is the most momentous year in human history, you need a little perspective.

1776 saw the birth of the American Revolution, with the idea that all men were created equal, and thus were entitled to political freedom AND it also saw the publication of the Wealth of Nations, the first economic treatise which explained the value of economic freedom.

2011 has a long way to go.
There needs to be a momentous year in history draft to settle this.El-Gadhafi would make for a good movie dictator with his rambling incoherence. But unfortunately it's all too real :hot:

Btw, Mo's blaming bin-Laden for this now: Mmmmm Nescafe

He claimed al Qaida militants are "exploiting" teenagers, giving them "hallucinogenic pills in their coffee with milk, like Nescafe".
-QG

 
Someone needs to explain to me how this doesn't end with us bombing their military.
Unilaterally? No way.If Saudi Arabia were to shut down the oil shipments, we would be brought to our knees by $300 oil. How do you think they would feel about our going after an autocrat in an Arab country?
Can you explain this a bit more? I'm a little hazy on who is connected where right now. I thought Yemen was the most at risk for US interests as the Saudi's mainly supply Europe? Yemen oil is for the most part operated by big US oil?
The oil market is a world market. Even though certain supplying countries send their oil to certain consuming markets, the price is set by world demand/supply and future expectations. Although OPEC control only about 35% of the world's oil supply, they set the price by restricting the supply, because their capacity to produce is far in excess of their demands. In this sense, Saudi Arabia is the big honcho. So if the Arab world became incensed at a unilateral decision of the US to remove an autocrat, they could restrict the supply, thus driving up the world price for oil.
 
I liked the bit where he said it wasn't the rebels fault, that they were young and had been given drugs by the U.S. that caused them to hallucinate.Guy is mad as a bag of cats.
I'm guessing that "Obama", "Muslim Brotherhood", and "Project MKULTRA" will probably make their way onto Glenn Beck's chalkboard tonight.
 
Someone needs to explain to me how this doesn't end with us bombing their military.
Unilaterally? No way.If Saudi Arabia were to shut down the oil shipments, we would be brought to our knees by $300 oil. How do you think they would feel about our going after an autocrat in an Arab country?
Can you explain this a bit more? I'm a little hazy on who is connected where right now. I thought Yemen was the most at risk for US interests as the Saudi's mainly supply Europe? Yemen oil is for the most part operated by big US oil?
The oil market is a world market. Even though certain supplying countries send their oil to certain consuming markets, the price is set by world demand/supply and future expectations. Although OPEC control only about 35% of the world's oil supply, they set the price by restricting the supply, because their capacity to produce is far in excess of their demands. In this sense, Saudi Arabia is the big honcho. So if the Arab world became incensed at a unilateral decision of the US to remove an autocrat, they could restrict the supply, thus driving up the world price for oil.
What if we enforced a no-fly zone?
 
Journalists have been warned

Senior Libyan officials are warning foreign journalists who have entered Libya without proper government accreditation to cover the violent unrest sweeping the country that they will be considered Al Qaeda collaborators and subject to immediate arrest, the State Department said Thursday.

In meetings with U.S. diplomats, Libyan officials said their government would not be responsible for the safety of those journalists, the department said in a statement. The officials said all journalists now in the country must be part of government approved teams and will be prosecuted on immigration charges if they are working independently, according to the department.

“Be advised, entering Libya to report on the events unfolding there is additionally hazardous with the government labeling unauthorized media as terrorist collaborators and claiming they will be arrested if caught,” the department said in a notice to news organizations.
 
What's with all the anti-Al Qaeda talk from Gadhafi? Is it a desperate attempt at wooing support from the west?

 
'culdeus said:
'DiStefano said:
'culdeus said:
'DiStefano said:
'culdeus said:
Someone needs to explain to me how this doesn't end with us bombing their military.
Unilaterally? No way.If Saudi Arabia were to shut down the oil shipments, we would be brought to our knees by $300 oil. How do you think they would feel about our going after an autocrat in an Arab country?
Can you explain this a bit more? I'm a little hazy on who is connected where right now. I thought Yemen was the most at risk for US interests as the Saudi's mainly supply Europe? Yemen oil is for the most part operated by big US oil?
The oil market is a world market. Even though certain supplying countries send their oil to certain consuming markets, the price is set by world demand/supply and future expectations. Although OPEC control only about 35% of the world's oil supply, they set the price by restricting the supply, because their capacity to produce is far in excess of their demands. In this sense, Saudi Arabia is the big honcho. So if the Arab world became incensed at a unilateral decision of the US to remove an autocrat, they could restrict the supply, thus driving up the world price for oil.
What if we enforced a no-fly zone?
Of course we could do that. The point is, we cannot do it unilaterally without risking strong disapproval. So, if it is to be done, it must be done with the backing of the big players in the Arab world--and that means primarily Saudi Arabia.
 
If you think that 2011 is the most momentous year in human history, you need a little perspective.

1776 saw the birth of the American Revolution, with the idea that all men were created equal, and thus were entitled to political freedom AND it also saw the publication of the Wealth of Nations, the first economic treatise which explained the value of economic freedom.

2011 has a long way to go.
I'll take 2011.- Mass revolt in the Muslim world with leaders who've been in power for decades getting deposed. This will shape a humongous swath of land for decades to come.

- Two more major European leaders have proclaimed multiculturalism a failure. Statements that could shape Europe in the coming decades.

- Mass revolts in the United States that can shape the U.S. For decades to come. States vs. The Federal Government and Unions vs. States.

Interesting times.

Here's an article from yesterday that discusses world altering years in history:

Revolution and the Muslim World

By George Friedman

The Muslim world, from North Africa to Iran, has experienced a wave of instability in the last few weeks. No regimes have been overthrown yet, although as of this writing, Libya was teetering on the brink.

There have been moments in history where revolution spread in a region or around the world as if it were a wildfire. These moments do not come often. Those that come to mind include 1848, where a rising in France engulfed Europe. There was also 1968, where the demonstrations of what we might call the New Left swept the world: Mexico City, Paris, New York and hundreds of other towns saw anti-war revolutions staged by Marxists and other radicals. Prague saw the Soviets smash a New Leftist government. Even China's Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution could, by a stretch, be included. In 1989, a wave of unrest, triggered by East Germans wanting to get to the West, generated an uprising in Eastern Europe that overthrew Soviet rule.

Each had a basic theme. The 1848 uprisings attempted to establish liberal democracies in nations that had been submerged in the reaction to Napoleon. 1968 was about radical reform in capitalist society. 1989 was about the overthrow of communism. They were all more complex than that, varying from country to country. But in the end, the reasons behind them could reasonably be condensed into a sentence or two.

Some of these revolutions had great impact. 1989 changed the global balance of power. 1848 ended in failure at the time - France reverted to a monarchy within four years - but set the stage for later political changes. 1968 produced little that was lasting. The key is that in each country where they took place, there were significant differences in the details - but they shared core principles at a time when other countries were open to those principles, at least to some extent.

The Current Rising in Context

In looking at the current rising, the geographic area is clear: The Muslim countries of North Africa and the Arabian Peninsula have been the prime focus of these risings, and in particular North Africa where Egypt, Tunisia and now Libya have had profound crises. Of course, many other Muslim countries also had revolutionary events that have not, at least until now, escalated into events that threaten regimes or even ruling personalities. There have been hints of such events elsewhere. There were small demonstrations in China, and of course Wisconsin is in turmoil over budget cuts. But these don't really connect to what is happening in the Middle East. The first was small and the second is not taking inspiration from Cairo. So what we have is a rising in the Arab world that has not spread beyond there for the time being.

The key principle that appears to be driving the risings is a feeling that the regimes, or a group of individuals within the regimes, has deprived the public of political and, more important, economic rights - in short, that they enriched themselves beyond what good taste permitted. This has expressed itself in different ways. In Bahrain, for example, the rising was of the primarily Shiite population against a predominantly Sunni royal family. In Egypt, it was against the person of Hosni Mubarak. In Libya, it is against the regime and person of Moammar Gadhafi and his family, and is driven by tribal hostility.

Why has it come together now? One reason is that there was a tremendous amount of regime change in the region from the 1950s through the early 1970s, as the Muslim countries created regimes to replace foreign imperial powers and were buffeted by the Cold War. Since the early 1970s, the region has, with the exception of Iran in 1979, been fairly stable in the sense that the regimes - and even the personalities who rose up in the unstable phase - stabilized their countries and imposed regimes that could not easily be moved. Gadhafi, for example, overthrew the Libyan monarchy in 1969 and has governed continually for 42 years since then.

Any regime dominated by a small group of people over time will see that group use their position to enrich themselves. There are few who can resist for 40 years. It is important to recognize that Gadhafi, for example, was once a genuine, pro-Soviet revolutionary. But over time, revolutionary zeal declines and avarice emerges along with the arrogance of extended power. And in the areas of the region where there had not been regime changes since after World War I, this principle stays true as well, although interestingly, over time, the regimes seem to learn to spread the wealth a bit.

Thus, what emerged throughout the region were regimes and individuals who were classic kleptocrats. More than anything, if we want to define this wave of unrest, particularly in North Africa, it is a rising against regimes - and particularly individuals - who have been in place for extraordinarily long periods of time. And we can add to this that they are people who were planning to maintain family power and money by installing sons as their political heirs. The same process, with variations, is under way in the Arabian Peninsula. This is a rising against the revolutionaries of previous generations.

The revolutions have been coming for a long time. The rising in Tunisia, particularly when it proved successful, caused it to spread. As in 1848, 1968 and 1989, similar social and cultural conditions generate similar events and are triggered by the example of one country and then spread more broadly. That has happened in 2011 and is continuing.

A Uniquely Sensitive Region

It is, however, happening in a region that is uniquely sensitive at the moment. The U.S.-jihadist war means that, as with previous revolutionary waves, there are broader potential geopolitical implications. 1989 meant the end of the Soviet empire, for example. In this case, the question of greatest importance is not why these revolutions are taking place, but who will take advantage of them. We do not see these revolutions as a vast conspiracy by radical Islamists to take control of the region. A conspiracy that vast is easily detected, and the security forces of the individual countries would have destroyed the conspiracies quickly. No one organized the previous waves, although there have been conspiracy theories about them as well. They arose from certain conditions, following the example of one incident. But particular groups certainly tried, with greater and lesser success, to take advantage of them.

In this case, whatever the cause of the risings, there is no question that radical Islamists will attempt to take advantage and control of them. Why wouldn't they? It is a rational and logical course for them. Whether they will be able to do so is a more complex and important question, but that they would want to and are trying to do so is obvious. They are a broad, transnational and disparate group brought up in conspiratorial methods. This is their opportunity to create a broad international coalition. Thus, as with traditional communists and the New Left in the 1960s, they did not create the rising but they would be fools not to try to take advantage of it. I would add that there is little question but that the United States and other Western countries are trying to influence the direction of the uprisings. For both sides, this is a difficult game to play, but it is particularly difficult for the United States as outsiders to play this game compared to native Islamists who know their country.

But while there is no question that Islamists would like to take control of the revolution, that does not mean that they will, nor does it mean that these revolutions will be successful. Recall that 1848 and 1968 were failures and those who tried to take advantage of them had no vehicle to ride. Also recall that taking control of a revolution is no easy thing. But as we saw in Russia in 1917, it is not necessarily the more popular group that wins, but the best organized. And you frequently don't find out who is best organized until afterwards.

Democratic revolutions have two phases. The first is the establishment of democracy. The second is the election of governments. The example of Hitler is useful as a caution on what kind of governments a young democracy can produce, since he came to power through democratic and constitutional means - and then abolished democracy to cheering crowds. So there are three crosscurrents here. The first is the reaction against corrupt regimes. The second is the election itself. And the third? The United States needs to remember, as it applauds the rise of democracy, that the elected government may not be what one expected.

In any event, the real issue is whether these revolutions will succeed in replacing existing regimes. Let's consider the process of revolution for the moment, beginning by distinguishing a demonstration from an uprising. A demonstration is merely the massing of people making speeches. This can unsettle the regime and set the stage for more serious events, but by itself, it is not significant. Unless the demonstrations are large enough to paralyze a city, they are symbolic events. There have been many demonstrations in the Muslim world that have led nowhere; consider Iran.

It is interesting here to note that the young frequently dominate revolutions like 1848, 1969 and 1989 at first. This is normal. Adults with families and maturity rarely go out on the streets to face guns and tanks. It takes young people to have the courage or lack of judgment to risk their lives in what might be a hopeless cause. However, to succeed, it is vital that at some point other classes of society join them. In Iran, one of the key moments of the 1979 revolution was when the shopkeepers joined young people in the street. A revolution only of the young, as we saw in 1968 for example, rarely succeeds. A revolution requires a broader base than that, and it must go beyond demonstrations. The moment it goes beyond the demonstration is when it confronts troops and police. If the demonstrators disperse, there is no revolution. If they confront the troops and police, and if they carry on even after they are fired on, then you are in a revolutionary phase. Thus, pictures of peaceful demonstrators are not nearly as significant as the media will have you believe, but pictures of demonstrators continuing to hold their ground after being fired on is very significant.

A Revolution's Key Event

This leads to the key event in the revolution. The revolutionaries cannot defeat armed men. But if those armed men, in whole or part, come over to the revolutionary side, victory is possible. And this is the key event. In Bahrain, the troops fired on demonstrators and killed some. The demonstrators dispersed and then were allowed to demonstrate - with memories of the gunfire fresh. This was a revolution contained. In Egypt, the military and police opposed each other and the military sided with the demonstrators, for complex reasons obviously. Personnel change, if not regime change, was inevitable. In Libya, the military has split wide open.

When that happens, you have reached a branch in the road. If the split in the military is roughly equal and deep, this could lead to civil war. Indeed, one way for a revolution to succeed is to proceed to civil war, turning the demonstrators into an army, so to speak. That's what Mao did in China. Far more common is for the military to split. If the split creates an overwhelming anti-regime force, this leads to the revolution's success. Always, the point to look for is thus the police joining with the demonstrators. This happened widely in 1989 but hardly at all in 1968. It happened occasionally in 1848, but the balance was always on the side of the state. Hence, that revolution failed.

It is this act, the military and police coming over to the side of the demonstrators, that makes or breaks a revolution. Therefore, to return to the earlier theme, the most important question on the role of radical Islamists is not their presence in the crowd, but their penetration of the military and police. If there were a conspiracy, it would focus on joining the military, waiting for demonstrations and then striking.

Those who argue that these risings have nothing to do with radical Islam may be correct in the sense that the demonstrators in the streets may well be students enamored with democracy. But they miss the point that the students, by themselves, can't win. They can only win if the regime wants them to, as in Egypt, or if other classes and at least some of the police or military - people armed with guns who know how to use them - join them. Therefore, looking at the students on TV tells you little. Watching the soldiers tells you much more.

The problem with revolutions is that the people who start them rarely finish them. The idealist democrats around Alexander Kerensky in Russia were not the ones who finished the revolution. The thuggish Bolsheviks did. In these Muslim countries, the focus on the young demonstrators misses the point just as it did in Tiananmen Square. It wasn't the demonstrators that mattered, but the soldiers. If they carried out orders, there would be no revolution.

I don't know the degree of Islamist penetration of the military in Libya, to pick one example of the unrest. I suspect that tribalism is far more important than theology. In Egypt, I suspect the regime has saved itself by buying time. Bahrain was more about Iranian influence on the Shiite population than Sunni jihadists at work. But just as the Iranians are trying to latch on to the process, so will the Sunni jihadists.

The Danger of Chaos

I suspect some regimes will fall, mostly reducing the country in question to chaos. The problem, as we are seeing in Tunisia, is that frequently there is no one on the revolutionaries' side equipped to take power. The Bolsheviks had an organized party. In these revolutions, the parties are trying to organize themselves during the revolution, which is another way to say that the revolutionaries are in no position to govern. The danger is not radical Islam, but chaos, followed either by civil war, the military taking control simply to stabilize the situation or the emergence of a radical Islamic party to take control - simply because they are the only ones in the crowd with a plan and an organization. That's how minorities take control of revolutions.

All of this is speculation. What we do know is that this is not the first wave of revolution in the world, and most waves fail, with their effects seen decades later in new regimes and political cultures. Only in the case of Eastern Europe do we see broad revolutionary success, but that was against an empire in collapse, so few lessons can be drawn from that for the Muslim world.

In the meantime, as you watch the region, remember not to watch the demonstrators. Watch the men with the guns. If they stand their ground for the state, the demonstrators have failed. If some come over, there is some chance of victory. And if victory comes, and democracy is declared, do not assume that what follows will in any way please the West - democracy and pro-Western political culture do not mean the same thing.

The situation remains fluid, and there are no broad certainties. It is a country-by-country matter now, with most regimes managing to stay in power to this point. There are three possibilities. One is that this is like 1848, a broad rising that will fail for lack of organization and coherence, but that will resonate for decades. The second is 1968, a revolution that overthrew no regime even temporarily and left some cultural remnants of minimal historical importance. The third is 1989, a revolution that overthrew the political order in an entire region, and created a new order in its place.

If I were to guess at this point, I would guess that we are facing 1848. The Muslim world will not experience massive regime change as in 1989, but neither will the effects be as ephemeral as 1968. Like 1848, this revolution will fail to transform the Muslim world or even just the Arab world. But it will plant seeds that will germinate in the coming decades. I think those seeds will be democratic, but not necessarily liberal. In other words, the democracies that eventually arise will produce regimes that will take their bearings from their own culture, which means Islam.

The West celebrates democracy. It should be careful what it hopes for: It might get it.
 
Well, now Gadhafi is in serious trouble. The Chairman of the UN Human Rights Council has condemned his actions. And it carries so much moral authority coming from the same council that actually has Libya sitting on it ad a judge of other countries. What a joke the UN is.

 
Well, now Gadhafi is in serious trouble. The Chairman of the UN Human Rights Council has condemned his actions. And it carries so much moral authority coming from the same council that actually has Libya sitting on it ad a judge of other countries. What a joke the UN is.
The seats rotate everybody gets a shot.
 
Protesters hit by gunfire

BENGHAZI, Libya – Militias loyal to Moammar Gadhafi opened fire Friday on protesters streaming out of mosques and marching across the Libyan capital to demand the regime's ouster, witnesses said, reporting multiple deaths. In rebellious cities in the east, tens of thousands held rallies in support of the first Tripoli protests in days.

Protesters described coming under a hail of bullets as they tried to march from several districts around the city toward Tripoli's central Green Square. One man among a crowd of thousands said gunmen on rooftops and in the streets opened fire with automatic weapons and even an anti-aircraft gun.

"In the first wave of fire, seven people within 10 meters (yards) of me were killed. Many people were shot in the head," the man, who was marching from Tripoli's eastern Tajoura district, told The Associated Press. "It was really like we are dogs."

"We can't see where it is coming from," another protester from Tajoura said of the gunfire. "They don't want to stop." He said a man next to him was shot in the neck.

Militiamen opened fire on other marches in the nearby Souq al-Jomaa and Fashloum districts, where witnesses reported four killed. The reports could not be immediately confirmed.

In the evening, Gadhafi appeared before a crowd over more than 1,000 supporters massed in Green Square and called on them to fight back against protesters and "defend the nation."

"Retaliate against them, retaliate against them," Gadhafi said, speaking by microphone from the ramparts of the Red Castle, a Crusader fort overlooking the square. Wearing a fur cap and sunglasses, he shook his fist in the air, telling the crowd, "Dance, sing and prepare. Prepare to defend Libya, to defend the oil, dignity and independence."

He warned, "At the suitable time we will open the arms depot so all Libyans and tribes become armed, so that Libya becomes red with fire." The crowd waved pictures of the leader and green flags as he said, "I am in the middle of the people in the Green Square. ... This is the people that loves Moammar Gadhafi. If the people of Libya and the Arabs and Africans don't love Moammar Gadhafi then Moammar Gadhafi does not deserve to live."

.

.
This guy needs to be stopped and yesterday.
 
Protesters hit by gunfire

BENGHAZI, Libya – Militias loyal to Moammar Gadhafi opened fire Friday on protesters streaming out of mosques and marching across the Libyan capital to demand the regime's ouster, witnesses said, reporting multiple deaths. In rebellious cities in the east, tens of thousands held rallies in support of the first Tripoli protests in days.

Protesters described coming under a hail of bullets as they tried to march from several districts around the city toward Tripoli's central Green Square. One man among a crowd of thousands said gunmen on rooftops and in the streets opened fire with automatic weapons and even an anti-aircraft gun.

"In the first wave of fire, seven people within 10 meters (yards) of me were killed. Many people were shot in the head," the man, who was marching from Tripoli's eastern Tajoura district, told The Associated Press. "It was really like we are dogs."

"We can't see where it is coming from," another protester from Tajoura said of the gunfire. "They don't want to stop." He said a man next to him was shot in the neck.

Militiamen opened fire on other marches in the nearby Souq al-Jomaa and Fashloum districts, where witnesses reported four killed. The reports could not be immediately confirmed.

In the evening, Gadhafi appeared before a crowd over more than 1,000 supporters massed in Green Square and called on them to fight back against protesters and "defend the nation."

"Retaliate against them, retaliate against them," Gadhafi said, speaking by microphone from the ramparts of the Red Castle, a Crusader fort overlooking the square. Wearing a fur cap and sunglasses, he shook his fist in the air, telling the crowd, "Dance, sing and prepare. Prepare to defend Libya, to defend the oil, dignity and independence."

He warned, "At the suitable time we will open the arms depot so all Libyans and tribes become armed, so that Libya becomes red with fire." The crowd waved pictures of the leader and green flags as he said, "I am in the middle of the people in the Green Square. ... This is the people that loves Moammar Gadhafi. If the people of Libya and the Arabs and Africans don't love Moammar Gadhafi then Moammar Gadhafi does not deserve to live."

.

.
This guy needs to be stopped and yesterday.
Looks like the people are trying to do it. I wish them the best of luck.
 
Good news for Gaddafi, the UN is about to adopt a report praising Libya for it's human rights record.http://www.ottawacitizen.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=4363104Nevermind that their diplomats that testified favorably for Libya have defected and admitted they lied or that most of the high praise comes from Cuba, Venezuela, etc.
I never remembered you being this angry a few years ago. The tone and content of your posts have become somehow different. Shared alias swap?
 
Good news for Gaddafi, the UN is about to adopt a report praising Libya for it's human rights record.http://www.ottawacitizen.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=4363104Nevermind that their diplomats that testified favorably for Libya have defected and admitted they lied or that most of the high praise comes from Cuba, Venezuela, etc.
Iran, Sudan and Cuba are among countries that heaped praise on Libya's human rights record -- despite themselves having poor human rights records, according to monitoring groups.
Why in the world would you have known human rights abusers on a council to determine which countries are abusing human rights? :thumbup:
 
Good news for Gaddafi, the UN is about to adopt a report praising Libya for it's human rights record.http://www.ottawacitizen.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=4363104Nevermind that their diplomats that testified favorably for Libya have defected and admitted they lied or that most of the high praise comes from Cuba, Venezuela, etc.
I never remembered you being this angry a few years ago. The tone and content of your posts have become somehow different. Shared alias swap?
Lol, maybe having a precocious 2 year old has made me more impatient. I've always been fairly angry when it comes to tyrannical governments though and how they treat their citizens.
 
Good news for Gaddafi, the UN is about to adopt a report praising Libya for it's human rights record.http://www.ottawacitizen.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=4363104Nevermind that their diplomats that testified favorably for Libya have defected and admitted they lied or that most of the high praise comes from Cuba, Venezuela, etc.
Iran, Sudan and Cuba are among countries that heaped praise on Libya's human rights record -- despite themselves having poor human rights records, according to monitoring groups.
Why in the world would you have known human rights abusers on a council to determine which countries are abusing human rights? :rolleyes:
This is the UN we're talking about. Par for the course.
 
Joy as opposition beats back Gadhafi forces in Misrata

(CNN) -- Standing outside a courthouse Sunday that the Libyan opposition is using for a base of operations in the town of Misrata, a witness described a sense of jubilation against a backdrop of blood stains and rocket fragments.

"I'm standing in the middle of a ... battlefield," the witness told CNN by phone from Misrata after a fierce fight between rebels and Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's forces.

People were holding their hands up, singing, chanting and cheering, he said. "Everyone is hugging everyone."

Videos posted on YouTube and thought to be out of Misrata showed damage to buildings and several shots of people celebrating around the opposition flag -- once being raised on a pole, and another time being waved by a man atop a charred vehicle that had a dead body inside.

A doctor at Central Misrata Hospital said 42 people were killed in the fighting -- 17 from the opposition and 25 from the pro-Gadhafi forces. Among the dead was a 3-year-old child, killed from direct fire, the doctor said. At least 85 people were wounded, the doctor said.

On Sunday morning, pro-Gadhafi militias converged on Misrata from three different points, trying to retake control of the city, the witness said. He saw four tanks, though other witnesses told him there were a total of six. Using heavy artillery, the ground forces and tanks headed for the courthouse operations base.

Tanks fired rockets at the building, and black smoke could be seen rising from it, he said.

The opposition couldn't match the government's weaponry, but rebels took to the streets using what weapons they had, such as machine guns. And some simply picked up whatever they could find, with some resorting to sticks, he said.

Speaking to CNN during the battle, he said, "People are willing to die for the cause," describing them as "fearless" and "amazing."

Later, after the forces had been repelled from the city center, the witness said, "I can't believe it.

"The will and the determination and dedication that people are showing here on the ground, it just makes you speechless," he said.
Gadhafi's forces can't take the city using tanks and artillery? These are some ####ing well-armed protestors.
 
I read an article today that may point to a historical watershed moment coming upon us...

link

Libya puts China in world stage spotlight

.....

Unlike in the case of the Iraq war, Europe is solidly backing the US. There are no dissonant voices like France's Jacques Chirac or Germany's Gerhard Schroeder's mocking at the impending US intervention. Europe's vital economic and business interests are at stake in Libya.

But Obama's sail is also getting wind from two other quarters. First, Russia's "cooperative" stance. Russia is not opposing US plans, which makes things easy for Obama in the United Nations Security Council - and avoids the stigma of "unilateralism". Russian diplomats worked hard to push the unanimous Libya resolution through in New York, which was no mean contribution to US diplomacy.

Libya puts China in world stage spotlight

By M K Bhadrakumar

Launcelot Gobbo told his elderly father in a poignant moment in William Shakespeare's play Merchant of Venice, "Truth will come to light; murder cannot be hid long." But the tragedy of life is often that by the time "truth is out", Gobbo would have become sand-blind and would no more be able to see his son.

For the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who perished since 2003, it is no consolation that the "truth is out" - that the war was a phony one bred by greed and imperial arrogance. Which is why it becomes important that the United States' proposed intervention in Libya shouldn't turn out to be another sojourn in yet another unknown land of killings.

A report in the London Sunday Times that a British special forces unit had been captured in the east of Libya underscores that

"truth" is once again at a premium. Anyone who follows events in Libya would know that Muammar Gaddafi's hold over the eastern provinces of his country, especially Benghazi, was tenuous at the best of times. Libya is a complex tribal mosaic and Western intelligence exploited Gaddafi's Achilles' heel.

War option is the only option

British Defense Secretary Liam Fox wrote an article in the London Sunday Telegraph recently in which he argued that the impact of the Middle East uprising would be far-reaching and would resonate for many years and it raised the question of how British forces could respond to crisis situations. Fox actually pledged to strengthen Britain's special forces in response to the Arab revolt. These are excerpts:

The events over the recent days may produce a strategic shock and change in how we view the world. The speed of events in North Africa has shown how quickly circumstances can change and how quickly the UK can be drawn in. An island like Britain, with so many interests in so many parts of the world ... is inevitably affected by global stability ... If required, we could field a force of 30,000, including maritime and air assets for a one-off intervention. Although I cannot go into detail, our internationally respected and battle-tested Special Forces will receive significantly enhanced capabilities.

Clearly, the "intervention option" is propelling the Anglo-American juggernaut. A little behind, France tags along not to miss out on the "peace dividends" that follow the intervention - Libyan oil. The parallel with the Iraq war is striking, except that things are on a fast-forward mode.

United States senators John McCain and Joseph Lieberman forcefully outlined the blueprint for President Barack Obama immediately after their return to Washington last week after consultations in Tel Aviv. They urged that Obama needed to take tougher action against Gaddafi. Lieberman demanded, "The fact is now is the time for action, not statements."

McCain spelt out specific steps: "Libyan pilots aren't going to fly if there is a no-fly zone and we could get air assets there to ensure it. Recognize some provisional government that they are trying to set up in the eastern part of Libya, help them with material assistance, make sure that every one of the mercenaries knows that ... they will find themselves in front a war crimes tribunal. Get tough."

Indeed, Obama got "tough". The chief military correspondent of Politics Daily, David Wood, reported from Fort Bragg, North Carolina, four days ago:

With orders from the White House to prepare "all options", military planners across the armed services are scrambling, from the XVIII Airborne Corps and 82nd Airborne Division headquartered here, to the U.S. Central Command and the U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla., down to the future operations cell of the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, embarked on the USS Kearsarge, an ambitious assault carrier headed toward Libya from the Red Sea ... None of the US planners involved will talk on the record.

Privately, though, planners, strategists and analysts describe a range of potential missions from imposing "no-fly" and "no-drive" zones ... to launching limited and short-duration humanitarian and relief operations. And because operations planners must consider worst-case situations, some are also looking at larger-scale armed intervention.

Agence France-Presse reported from Athens on Friday that the USS Kearsarge and another warship, the USS Ponce, had already set anchor at the US naval base on the Greek island of Crete and that the amphibious ready group included 800 marines and a fleet of helicopters. The American aircraft carrier USS Enterprise (which has fighter jets that could enforce a "no-fly" zone) is also on call for the Libya crisis.

Defining a historical moment?

In short, the attempt by Washington to portray that its Libya plans are molded by events does not add up. Clearly, the US is defining a historical moment: if the Western world's vital economic interests come under threat, it is only the US that can salvage them, even when the theater is Europe's immediate neighborhood.

Unlike in the case of the Iraq war, Europe is solidly backing the US. There are no dissonant voices like France's Jacques Chirac or Germany's Gerhard Schroeder's mocking at the impending US intervention. Europe's vital economic and business interests are at stake in Libya.

But Obama's sail is also getting wind from two other quarters. First, Russia's "cooperative" stance. Russia is not opposing US plans, which makes things easy for Obama in the United Nations Security Council - and avoids the stigma of "unilateralism". Russian diplomats worked hard to push the unanimous Libya resolution through in New York, which was no mean contribution to US diplomacy.

Clearly, Obama's "reset" with Moscow is coming into play. Obama has successfully pandered to Russian demands to be treated as an "equal power". Now, there could even be more US-Russia tradeoffs in the coming months in the wake of the Middle East crisis. Iranians already voice disquiet that Moscow is again playing hide-and-seek on the commissioning of the Bushehr nuclear power plant.

Anyhow, coincidence or not, US Vice President Joseph Biden is visiting Moscow this week and Washington has held out missile defense and Russia's World Trade Organization membership as two priority areas in US policies in 2011.

.....

For China, too, such uneasiness about the democracy virus probably exists. But that's a peripheral concern and probably a nuisance. But China is always a unique country and its behavior in New York was highly unusual in voting for the US resolution imposing sanctions on Libya and a referral of that country to the International Criminal Court.

Non-intervention has been a core principle for China. Over Myanmar, Zimbabwe or North Korea, China's stance has been consistent. Was it the specter of Gaddafi trampling on the holiest of Chinese principles - stability? Obviously, China has high stakes in the Middle East's stability and its economic interests happen to coincide with Eastern interests.

But that alone is insufficient to explain the novel Chinese stance on national sovereignty. One reason could be that China found itself on the defensive through much of last year by being pilloried (rightly or wrongly) as an "assertive" power and 2010 turned out to be China's annus horribilus in foreign policy. Libya presents an opportunity for China to be a "stakeholder" with Western countries.

The fashion in which China evacuated its nationals out of Libya is also relevant. A Chinese frigate was needlessly pressed into the mission and four Chinese military transport planes lifted off from Xinjiang and appeared in the Mediterranean skies in an unprecedented move. Besides, by not only evacuating its own nationals, but also lending a hand to rescue hundreds of Europeans, Bangladeshis and Vietnamese, China probably displayed its willingness to carry the burdens of a world power.

However, the big question still remains: Is this a one-off or has China's defining moment come as a collaborator of the US in securing the "global commons". We will know when and if the US presses the UN Security Council for the establishment of a "no-fly" zone over Libya.

From the fact that the US and its partners are discussing the "no-fly" zone option outside the UN if need arises to do so, it appears Obama isn't quite sure how far China is willing to go to concede its red lines.
 
Good news for Gaddafi, the UN is about to adopt a report praising Libya for it's human rights record.http://www.ottawacitizen.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=4363104Nevermind that their diplomats that testified favorably for Libya have defected and admitted they lied or that most of the high praise comes from Cuba, Venezuela, etc.
Iran, Sudan and Cuba are among countries that heaped praise on Libya's human rights record -- despite themselves having poor human rights records, according to monitoring groups.
Why in the world would you have known human rights abusers on a council to determine which countries are abusing human rights? :thumbup:
Just one of the (many) reasons the UN is a joke.
 
It's going down right now. Obviously CNN and Fox News aren't covering it because Piers Morgan's interview of Jimmy Fallon is obviously real important.

The best coverage is on Twitter though, follow @AntDeRosa

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Maltese ships trying to get refugees have been fired at and had to pull back, Tunisia recognizing the new rebel government, and Gaddafi giving crazed live speech damning NATO and anyone supporting violence during Ramadan. Interesting stuff, his speech sounded like a classic.

 
20 or so international reporters trapped in Tripoli hotel as gunfire rages outside. The hotel staff has abandoned them. Grim situation. Gaddafi just spoke again and said he will there till the end.

 
robcrilly Rob Crilly

Diplomat in Benghazi tells me one third of Tripoli is in rebel hands or is being contested #libya

5 minutes ago

 
It's nice to see people actually willing to fight instead of waiting for someone to come in and liberate them.
It's nice that people are being allowed to liberate themselves instead of having liberty forced upon them.
You seem really intent on picking fights here. :shrug:
It's great that they are rebelling, but the post made it sound like people in countries like Iraq were just waiting around to be liberated. Iraq rebelled in 1991 after we left but no one helped them and they didn't stand a chance. Libya' rebellion would not have stood a chance either without outside help.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This whole thing is refreshing.Cant deny that our involvement was was kept minor and played perfectly for our own ends.
Obama was a little slow and seemed to flip-flop a bit about what our goals were, but he made the right call against many in his party and hopefully we can get some good leadership in Libya. So he deserves credit for that, eventhough the rationale for the Libyan action is not all that different than the Iraq War which he seems to think was unjustified. Now, the countdown begins to Obama's prime time announcement and petting himself on the back.
 
This whole thing is refreshing.

Cant deny that our involvement was was kept minor and played perfectly for our own ends.
Obama was a little slow and seemed to flip-flop a bit about what our goals were, but he made the right call against many in his party and hopefully we can get some good leadership in Libya. So he deserves credit for that, eventhough the rationale for the Libyan action is not all that different than the Iraq War which he seems to think was unjustified. Now, the countdown begins to Obama's prime time announcement and petting himself on the back.
Obama claimed that Libya was hiding WMDs?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Our world is being transformed before our eyes and it's mostly due to Facebook and Twitter- it's beyond amazing. Is it hyperbole to suggest that historians will look at 2011 as a momentous year in human history? I'm beginning to think this is the case.
Timmy, I think you made a very good point. Nothing can mobilize a mob faster than Facebook and Twitter.It's the age of Piranha Politics. :excited: Take cover.
 
This whole thing is refreshing.

Cant deny that our involvement was was kept minor and played perfectly for our own ends.
Obama was a little slow and seemed to flip-flop a bit about what our goals were, but he made the right call against many in his party and hopefully we can get some good leadership in Libya. So he deserves credit for that, eventhough the rationale for the Libyan action is not all that different than the Iraq War which he seems to think was unjustified. Now, the countdown begins to Obama's prime time announcement and petting himself on the back.
Obama claimed that Libya was hiding WMDs?
Bush gave four reasons for the Iraq War, and that is not an accurate representation of any of them. HTH.
 
This whole thing is refreshing.

Cant deny that our involvement was was kept minor and played perfectly for our own ends.
Obama was a little slow and seemed to flip-flop a bit about what our goals were, but he made the right call against many in his party and hopefully we can get some good leadership in Libya. So he deserves credit for that, eventhough the rationale for the Libyan action is not all that different than the Iraq War which he seems to think was unjustified. Now, the countdown begins to Obama's prime time announcement and petting himself on the back.
Yes too bad we aren't being led now by any of one of those running to replace him. All budding Metternichs, as the catalogue of their positions here on Libya conclusively demonstrates: http://www.balloon-juice.com/2011/08/21/send-in-the-clowns/Osama, Mubarak, Gaddafi. All just the product of good luck and coincidence, and his predecessor just had bad luck with 9/11 and in going into Iraq.

 
This whole thing is refreshing.

Cant deny that our involvement was was kept minor and played perfectly for our own ends.
Obama was a little slow and seemed to flip-flop a bit about what our goals were, but he made the right call against many in his party and hopefully we can get some good leadership in Libya. So he deserves credit for that, eventhough the rationale for the Libyan action is not all that different than the Iraq War which he seems to think was unjustified. Now, the countdown begins to Obama's prime time announcement and petting himself on the back.
Yes too bad we aren't being led now by any of one of those running to replace him. All budding Metternichs, as the catalogue of their positions here on Libya conclusively demonstrates: http://www.balloon-juice.com/2011/08/21/send-in-the-clowns/Osama, Mubarak, Gaddafi. All just the product of good luck and coincidence, and his predecessor just had bad luck with 9/11 and in going into Iraq.
Do you really have any idea what lead to 9/11 and when it happened? I thought not. OK, Obama deserves some props for Osama's death, but let's not get carried away.
 
I think Ghadaffi needs to have Baghdad Bob working for him now.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
This #### is just amazing to watch. I often think about what it would be like to be part of a rebel force who is trying to win freedom from an oppressive government. It must be an incredible feeling when that day comes.

 
This #### is just amazing to watch. I often think about what it would be like to be part of a rebel force who is trying to win freedom from an oppressive government. It must be an incredible feeling when that day comes.
Or, more likely, you get brutally crushed by superior firepower and are forced to flee or die. But hey, it's good to dream.
 
This #### is just amazing to watch. I often think about what it would be like to be part of a rebel force who is trying to win freedom from an oppressive government. It must be an incredible feeling when that day comes.
Or, more likely, you get brutally crushed by superior firepower and are forced to flee or die. But hey, it's good to dream.
Well yeah, there's that possibility too.
 
If Gaddafi's regime falls, its going to have powerfully grave consequences. It will convince the leadership in North Korea and Iran to never surrender their dreams of obtaining nuclear weapons. The only reason we are bombing Libya is because Gaddafi didn't have the resolve to stick to his WMD program. Years of successful diplomacy completely undone. North Korea and Iran will never trust the West again. I was hoping Gaddafi could hold out until our leadership could see the error of their ways, but its looking like that won't happen. We're going to see the rise of nuclear Iran and nuclear North Korea for sure now.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top