Liriano (1 Viewer)

[Capella]

You don't even need to be good at all

See:

Brad Lidge

Give me a break. He's had a bad season this year, but dude has some of the best stuff in baseball. Terrible example.

He's done as a closer. He's the new Byung Hyun Kim and I predicted this would happen after the playoff debacle last year.

He's still got something like 57 ks in 41 innings and 22 walks, he's not done as anything.

I never said he didnt have outstanding stuff. But his collapse is mental just like Kim and just like Mark Wohlers. Both pitchers never recovered and I predict Lidge will never recover as well.

Whatever dude. You're making a broad statement here based on one half of play. Kim was actually much better in 2002 than he was in 2001, so I don't know where you're getting that he went through a mental collapse based on the 01 Series. He lost some miles on his heater and then was moved a few times and shuffled between the pen and starting.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

You don't even need to be good at all

See:

Brad Lidge

Give me a break. He's had a bad season this year, but dude has some of the best stuff in baseball. Terrible example.

Terrible example?Let's see how he's doing this year:

His WHIP last year was 1.15. Sure he got 42 Saves but besides the fact that Saves are a worthless stat, his WHIP came through in the playoffs.

This year his WHIP is 1.44

His ERA is 5.49!

He has 4 blown Saves

Lefties are hitting .295 against him and his WHIP against lefties is 2.00

He's given up 6 HR in 41 IP

22 BB in 41 IP for a 4.82 BB per 9 IP.

 

[David Yudkin]

Here are the candidates each year that a releiver won the Cy Young Award in the past 30 years. It doesn't look like the "there were no legit starting pitchers as candidates" argument holds up.

W-L IP ERA WHIP SO SV

2003

1 Eric Gagne LAD 2-3 82 1.20 0.69 137 55

2 Jason Schmidt SFG 17-5 208 2.34 0.95 208

3 Mark Prior CHC 18-6 211 2.43 1.10 245

4 Russ Ortiz ATL 21-7 212 3.81 1.31 149

1992

1 Dennis Eckersley OAK 7-1 80 1.91 0.91 93 51

2 Jack McDowell CHW 20-10 261 3.18 1.24 178

3 Roger Clemens BOS 18-11 247 2.41 1.07 208

4 Mike Mussina BAL 18-5 241 2.54 1.08 130

5 Jack Morris TOR 21-6 241 4.04 1.25 132

6 Kevin Brown TEX 21-11 266 3.32 1.27 173

7 Charles Nagy CLE 17-10 252 2.96 1.20 169

1989 Marc Davis

1 Mark Davis SDP 4-3 93 1.85 1.05 92 44

2 Mike Scott HOU 20-10 229 3.10 1.06 172

3 Greg Maddux CHC 19-12 238 2.95 1.28 135

4 Orel Hershiser LAD 15-15 257 2.31 1.18 178

4 Joe Magrane STL 18-9 235 2.91 1.24 127

6 Tim Belcher LAD 15-12 230 2.82 1.14 200 1

6 Scott Garrelts SFG 14-5 193 2.28 1.01 119

8 Rick Reuschel SFG 17-8 208 2.94 1.20 111

9 Mike Bielecki CHC 18-7 212 3.14 1.26 147

9 Mitch Williams CHC 4-4 82 2.76 1.51 67 36

1987

1 Steve Bedrosian PHI 5-3 89 2.83 1.20 74 40

2 Rick Sutcliffe CHC 18-10 237 3.68 1.39 174

3 Rick Reuschel TOT 13-9 227 3.09 1.10 107

4 Orel Hershiser LAD 16-16 265 3.06 1.21 190 1

5 Dwight Gooden NYM 15-7 180 3.21 1.20 148

5 Nolan Ryan HOU 8-16 212 2.76 1.14 270

7 Mike Scott HOU 16-13 248 3.23 1.12 233

8 Bob Welch LAD 15-9 252 3.22 1.15 196

1984

1 Willie Hernandez DET 9-3 140 1.92 0.94 112 32

2 Dan Quisenberry KCR 6-3 129 2.64 1.03 41 44

3 Bert Blyleven CLE 19-7 245 2.87 1.13 170

4 Mike Boddicker BAL 20-11 261 2.79 1.14 128

5 Dan Petry DET 18-8 233 3.24 1.27 144

6 Frank Viola MIN 18-12 258 3.21 1.16 149

7 Jack Morris DET 19-11 240 3.60 1.28 148

7 Dave Stieb TOR 16-8 267 2.83 1.13 198

1981

1 Rollie Fingers MIL 6-3 78 1.04 0.87 61 28

2 Steve McCatty OAK 14-7 186 2.33 1.08 91

3 Jack Morris DET 14-7 198 3.05 1.17 97

4 Pete Vuckovich MIL 14-4 150 3.55 1.30 84

5 Rich Gossage NYY 3-2 47 0.77 0.77 48 20

5 Dennis Martinez BAL 14-5 179 3.32 1.31 88

7 Britt Burns CHW 10-6 157 2.64 1.20 108

7 Ron Guidry NYY 11-5 127 2.76 0.99 104

9 Larry Gura KCR 11-8 172 2.72 1.01 61

1979

1 Bruce Sutter CHC 6-6 101 2.22 0.98 110 37

2 Joe Niekro HOU 21-11 264 3.00 1.24 119

3 J.R. Richard HOU 18-13 292 2.71 1.09 313

4 Tom Seaver CIN 16-6 215 3.14 1.15 131

5 Kent Tekulve PIT 10-8 134 2.75 1.18 75 31

6 Phil Niekro ATL 21-20 342 3.39 1.24 208

1977

1 Sparky Lyle NYY 13-5 137 2.17 1.20 68 26

2 Jim Palmer BAL 20-11 319 2.91 1.13 193

3 Nolan Ryan CAL 19-16 299 2.77 1.34 341

4 Dennis Leonard KCR 20-12 293 3.04 1.11 244 1

5 Bill Campbell BOS 13-9 140 2.96 1.23 114 31

6 Dave Goltz MIN 20-11 303 3.36 1.24 186

7 Ron Guidry NYY 16-7 211 2.82 1.13 176 1

8 Dave Rozema DET 15-7 218 3.09 1.17 92

9 Frank Tanana CAL 15-9 241 2.54 1.09 205

 

[Darth Cheney]

Just to be clear, then, there is nothing that Papelbon (or any reliever) could have done to be considered as Cy Young by most of the posters here?

I think that the closers numbers have to be looked at more in depth to give him consideration as a Cy Young candidate.Some of the questions I would ask would be:

How many two inning saves did he get?

How many runners did he inherit...how many did he let score?

What are opponents batting average against him?

How many pressure situations has the closer come in on?

The way I see it... a good reliever puts up good numbers and has no trouble consistently pitching a 1-2-3 9th for a save. A Cy Young reliever comes in in pressure situations (often in the 8th) with runners on base and closes the door on a team trying to rally. In Papelbon is doing the latter with consistency, then he deserves to be considered for the Cy Young.

 

[Bob Henry]

Back to Steve's original post.. I agree that Liriano should be on the All-Star roster, but Cy Young? I dunno. Close, but.. in addition to Papelbon,

Justin Verlander is another young buck having a TREMENDOUS first half.

All three are lights out right now, but if we're talking talent and doing the "which one would you take as a GM" thing, then it would be like Liriano (barely) over Verlander and then Papelbon. That's just my opinion and Verlander might even be the best of the three. Liriano is filthy right now though and Papelbon is white hot as a closer.

All three are vital to their team's chances down the stretch.

 

[shadyridr]

You don't even need to be good at all

See:

Brad Lidge

Give me a break. He's had a bad season this year, but dude has some of the best stuff in baseball. Terrible example.

He's done as a closer. He's the new Byung Hyun Kim and I predicted this would happen after the playoff debacle last year.

He's still got something like 57 ks in 41 innings and 22 walks, he's not done as anything.

I never said he didnt have outstanding stuff. But his collapse is mental just like Kim and just like Mark Wohlers. Both pitchers never recovered and I predict Lidge will never recover as well.

Neither of those guys ever came back and put up the k/bb/ip numbers that lidge has this year. I'd say that given his entire body of work in the bigs, this season's ERA is more of an abberation that anything.

2 years as a closer = an entire body of work?Plus his K/IP and his BB/IP are both higher than the last 2 years.

 

[RKMoney]

Give me a good SP over a good RP any day of the year. Palpebon (like Rivera and Gagne) is nothing more than a failed SP who has been converted. HE has good stuff........but only for 1 inning.

This is wrong on so many levels. Paplebon volunteered to pitch however the team wanted to use him (starter, long reliever, closer, setup man, righthanded specialist, swingman, etc.). The team wanted him to be a starter (and still do). But Foulke got hurt and was ineffective. No one else really has shown the ability to close at the moment. The team STILL is considering using him as a starter anyway and trying Craig Hansen at closer (who has been a closer his minor league career). Paplebon never failed as a SP and will likely return to being a SP.

I retract the Papelbon as a failure as a starter comment. However, give me Papelbon as a successful starter or Liriano as a successful starter over Papelbon as a successful closer. A "closer" is one of the most ovverrated positions in any sport. Just about any pitcher with one great pitch can come in the game for one inning, with noone on base and record three outs... especially with a cushion of 2 runs or more.

If you have a Paps or Mariano, it's one of the BEST positions in baseball to have. Living in NYC since mid 90s when Mariano came in either one out left needed for the 8th or 9th it was OVER. Go look at MLB this year and you can't say that for 99% of th teams out there.Comparing Closers to Starters is laughable.

 

[RKMoney]

Give me a good SP over a good RP any day of the year. Palpebon (like Rivera and Gagne) is nothing more than a failed SP who has been converted. HE has good stuff........but only for 1 inning.

This is wrong on so many levels. Paplebon volunteered to pitch however the team wanted to use him (starter, long reliever, closer, setup man, righthanded specialist, swingman, etc.). The team wanted him to be a starter (and still do). But Foulke got hurt and was ineffective. No one else really has shown the ability to close at the moment. The team STILL is considering using him as a starter anyway and trying Craig Hansen at closer (who has been a closer his minor league career). Paplebon never failed as a SP and will likely return to being a SP.

I retract the Papelbon as a failure as a starter comment. However, give me Papelbon as a successful starter or Liriano as a successful starter over Papelbon as a successful closer. A "closer" is one of the most ovverrated positions in any sport. Just about any pitcher with one great pitch can come in the game for one inning, with noone on base and record three outs... especially with a cushion of 2 runs or more.

You don't even need to be good at all to be a closer and get a high amount of saves.The save is the most over rated stat in baseball.

See:

Todd Jones

Brad Lidge

Jason Isringhausen

Derrick Turnbow

Just to name a few.

Look at their stats, not just Saves. Would you consider a batter who hits 30hr with a .210 average a great player as well?There's more than just Saves to a closer.

 

[shadyridr]

You don't even need to be good at all

See:

Brad Lidge

Give me a break. He's had a bad season this year, but dude has some of the best stuff in baseball. Terrible example.

He's done as a closer. He's the new Byung Hyun Kim and I predicted this would happen after the playoff debacle last year.

He's still got something like 57 ks in 41 innings and 22 walks, he's not done as anything.

I never said he didnt have outstanding stuff. But his collapse is mental just like Kim and just like Mark Wohlers. Both pitchers never recovered and I predict Lidge will never recover as well.

Whatever dude. You're making a broad statement here based on one half of play. Kim was actually much better in 2002 than he was in 2001, so I don't know where you're getting that he went through a mental collapse based on the 01 Series. He lost some miles on his heater and then was moved a few times and shuffled between the pen and starting.

Kim was much better in 2002? His WHIP went up, his K/IP went down, and his BS went up as well.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Back to Steve's original post.. I agree that Liriano should be on the All-Star roster, but Cy Young? I dunno. Close, but.. in addition to Papelbon,

Justin Verlander is another young buck having a TREMENDOUS first half.

All three are lights out right now, but if we're talking talent and doing the "which one would you take as a GM" thing, then it would be like Liriano (barely) over Verlander and then Papelbon. That's just my opinion and Verlander might even be the best of the three. Liriano is filthy right now though and Papelbon is white hot as a closer.

All three are vital to their team's chances down the stretch.

Verlander is not the best of the three3.01 ERA

A 1.17 WHIP

11 HRA

Remember folks, Liriano wasn't even in the starting rotation at the beginning of the year.

Gardnerforhire thought Scott Baker was more ready for the big leagues as a starter.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Give me a good SP over a good RP any day of the year. Palpebon (like Rivera and Gagne) is nothing more than a failed SP who has been converted. HE has good stuff........but only for 1 inning.

This is wrong on so many levels. Paplebon volunteered to pitch however the team wanted to use him (starter, long reliever, closer, setup man, righthanded specialist, swingman, etc.). The team wanted him to be a starter (and still do). But Foulke got hurt and was ineffective. No one else really has shown the ability to close at the moment. The team STILL is considering using him as a starter anyway and trying Craig Hansen at closer (who has been a closer his minor league career). Paplebon never failed as a SP and will likely return to being a SP.

I retract the Papelbon as a failure as a starter comment. However, give me Papelbon as a successful starter or Liriano as a successful starter over Papelbon as a successful closer. A "closer" is one of the most ovverrated positions in any sport. Just about any pitcher with one great pitch can come in the game for one inning, with noone on base and record three outs... especially with a cushion of 2 runs or more.

You don't even need to be good at all to be a closer and get a high amount of saves.The save is the most over rated stat in baseball.

See:

Todd Jones

Brad Lidge

Jason Isringhausen

Derrick Turnbow

Just to name a few.

Look at their stats, not just Saves. Would you consider a batter who hits 30hr with a .210 average a great player as well?There's more than just Saves to a closer.

Umm, I thought that was the point I was making. These players have a high number of saves but looking their stats proves that these aren't great pitchers.

There is another post showing WHIP, ERA, Blown Saves that proves my point.

 

[David Yudkin]

Paplebon just gave up a game tying homer to blow another save . . .

 

[thecatch]

Here are the candidates each year that a releiver won the Cy Young Award in the past 30 years. It doesn't look like the "there were no legit starting pitchers as candidates" argument holds up.

W-L IP ERA WHIP SO SV

2003

1 Eric Gagne LAD 2-3 82 1.20 0.69 137 55

2 Jason Schmidt SFG 17-5 208 2.34 0.95 208

3 Mark Prior CHC 18-6 211 2.43 1.10 245

4 Russ Ortiz ATL 21-7 212 3.81 1.31 149

20 wins seems to be some sort of magic Cy Young number with voters... If Schmidt had 3 more wins in 03 I don't think there is any doubt he would have won. As for the others, I either wasn't alive or didn't really follow the debate at the time to really comment on.

 

[Shirtless]

Here are the candidates each year that a releiver won the Cy Young Award in the past 30 years. It doesn't look like the "there were no legit starting pitchers as candidates" argument holds up.

W-L IP ERA WHIP SO SV

2003

1 Eric Gagne LAD 2-3 82 1.20 0.69 137 55

2 Jason Schmidt SFG 17-5 208 2.34 0.95 208

3 Mark Prior CHC 18-6 211 2.43 1.10 245

4 Russ Ortiz ATL 21-7 212 3.81 1.31 149

20 wins seems to be some sort of magic Cy Young number with voters... If Schmidt had 3 more wins in 03 I don't think there is any doubt he would have won. As for the others, I either wasn't alive or didn't really follow the debate at the time to really comment on.

Agreed. As I already said, in order for a closer to win a Cy Young, he needs a fantastic year while no starter distinguishes himself with a stellar season (i.e. 20+ wins and sub 3.00 ERA). What's actually better than looking at the seasons when closers won the Cy Young is looking at the seasons when they received votes but didn't win. 2005

1 Chris Carpenter STL 19 132 140 0.94 | 21-5 242 2.83 1.06 213

2 Dontrelle Willis FLA 11 112 140 0.80 | 22-10 236 2.63 1.13 170

3 Roger Clemens HOU 2 40 140 0.29 | 13-8 211 1.87 1.01 185

4 Roy Oswalt HOU 0 2 140 0.01 | 20-12 242 2.94 1.20 184

5 Chad Cordero WSN 0 1 140 0.01 | 2-4 74 1.82 0.97 61 47

5 Andy Pettitte HOU 0 1 140 0.01 | 17-9 222 2.39 1.03 171

1 Bartolo Colon LAA 17 118 140 0.84 | 21-8 223 3.48 1.16 157

2 Mariano Rivera NYY 8 68 140 0.49 | 7-4 78 1.38 0.87 80 43

3 Johan Santana MIN 3 51 140 0.36 | 16-7 232 2.87 0.97 238

4 Cliff Lee CLE 0 8 140 0.06 | 18-5 202 3.79 1.22 143

5 Mark Buehrle CHW 0 5 140 0.04 | 16-8 237 3.12 1.18 149

6 Jon Garland CHW 0 1 140 0.01 | 18-10 221 3.50 1.17 115

6 Kevin Millwood CLE 0 1 140 0.01 | 9-11 192 2.86 1.22 146

2004

1 Roger Clemens HOU 23 140 160 0.88 | 18-4 214 2.98 1.16 218

2 Randy Johnson ARI 8 97 160 0.61 | 16-14 246 2.60 0.90 290

3 Roy Oswalt HOU 1 19 160 0.12 | 20-10 237 3.49 1.24 206

4 Jason Schmidt SFG 0 13 160 0.08 | 18-7 225 3.20 1.08 251

5 Carlos Zambrano CHC 0 8 160 0.05 | 16-8 210 2.75 1.22 188

6 Carl Pavano FLA 0 6 160 0.04 | 18-8 222 3.00 1.17 139

7 Eric Gagne LAD 0 3 160 0.02 | 7-3 82 2.19 0.91 114 45

8 Brad Lidge HOU 0 1 160 0.01 | 6-5 95 1.90 0.92 157 29

8 Ben Sheets MIL 0 1 160 0.01 | 12-14 237 2.70 0.98 264

1 Johan Santana MIN 28 140 140 1.00 | 20-6 228 2.61 0.92 265

2 Curt Schilling BOS 0 82 140 0.59 | 21-6 227 3.26 1.06 203

3 Mariano Rivera NYY 0 27 140 0.19 | 4-2 79 1.94 1.08 66 53

4 Pedro Martinez BOS 0 1 140 0.01 | 16-9 217 3.90 1.17 227

4 Joe Nathan MIN 0 1 140 0.01 | 1-2 72 1.62 0.98 89 44

4 Francisco Rodrigu ANA 0 1 140 0.01 | 4-1 84 1.82 1.00 123 12

And so on and so on...

I mean look at Rivera in 2004, 53 saves and a 1.94 ERA. That's almost identical to Eck's Cy Young season. The difference is that there wasn't a starter during Eck's season who had a truly stellar season. There was in Rivera's. As a result, Eck won but Rivera finished a distant 3rd.

 

[RnR]

You don't even need to be good at all

See:

Brad Lidge

Give me a break. He's had a bad season this year, but dude has some of the best stuff in baseball. Terrible example.

Terrible example?Let's see how he's doing this year:

His WHIP last year was 1.15. Sure he got 42 Saves but besides the fact that Saves are a worthless stat, his WHIP came through in the playoffs.

This year his WHIP is 1.44

His ERA is 5.49!

He has 4 blown Saves

Lefties are hitting .295 against him and his WHIP against lefties is 2.00

He's given up 6 HR in 41 IP

22 BB in 41 IP for a 4.82 BB per 9 IP.

I'm pretty sure I already admitted to a subpar season thus far. He's definitely missing with his slider and relying too much on his fastball. Hitters can sit on the heater when he can't locate his slider.

I like how you completely ignored 2004 and only referenced the 1.15 WHIP in 2005. Way to paint the complete picture.

 

[bj8288]

In terms of who I'd want as a GM, my order:

Liriano

Verlander

Weaver

Papelbon

Lots of great young guns right now.

One thing that is overlooked in the closer argument is the K-rate of Gagne. Gagne's 137 strikeouts, put him on another level IMO, when making comparisions between his big season and some of the other big seasons by closers.

 

[RnR]

PS- Poor 2006 numbers aside, if you can watch Brad Lidge pitch and say he is "not good at all", then I can confidently say you are completely clueless. Time to move along.

 

[[icon]]

Give me a good SP over a good RP any day of the year.  Palpebon (like Rivera and Gagne) is nothing more than a failed SP who has been converted. HE has good stuff........but only for 1 inning.

wow.... you really should start using your head for something other than a hat rack.Failed starter?

Look at his numbers from last year as a starter and get back to me. 3-1 with a 2.65 ERA in limited action late in the season. You're right... what a bum.

He'll be moved to the rotation when his value to the team is greater there and Boston has someone else who can step into the role (ie hansen).

 

[Bob Henry]

In terms of who I'd want as a GM, my order:

Liriano

Verlander

Weaver

Papelbon

Lots of great young guns right now.

One thing that is overlooked in the closer argument is the K-rate of Gagne. Gagne's 137 strikeouts, put him on another level IMO, when making comparisions between his big season and some of the other big seasons by closers.

Jared Weaver definitely belongs in that group as well. Good catch.

 

[Big Papi]

In terms of who I'd want as a GM, my order:

Liriano

Verlander

Weaver

Papelbon

Lots of great young guns right now.

One thing that is overlooked in the closer argument is the K-rate of Gagne. Gagne's 137 strikeouts, put him on another level IMO, when making comparisions between his big season and some of the other big seasons by closers.

Jared Weaver definitely belongs in that group as well. Good catch.

No way. Top tier is Liriano and Verlander, then Papelbon, and then Weaver. Weaver is doing well this time through the league, but I will go on record as saying that the league will catch up to him. Weaver will be a decent pitcher for the next several years, but he won't be the star pitcher that Liriano or Verlander will be**Caveat: assuming no injuries

 

[GRIDIRON ASSASSIN]

The worst part is that the Giants traded Nathan, Liriano AND another prospect for Pierzinski...

The Giants are the big losers in that deal.Nathan and Liriano are outstanding.

AJ has a World Series ring and is in the All Star game.

The Giants have absolutely NOTHING to show for any of those players now.

 

[BoulderBob]

In terms of who I'd want as a GM, my order:

Liriano

Verlander

Weaver

Papelbon

Lots of great young guns right now.

One thing that is overlooked in the closer argument is the K-rate of Gagne.  Gagne's 137 strikeouts, put him on another level IMO, when making comparisions between his big season and some of the other big seasons by closers.

Jared Weaver definitely belongs in that group as well. Good catch.

No way. Top tier is Liriano and Verlander, then Papelbon, and then Weaver. Weaver is doing well this time through the league, but I will go on record as saying that the league will catch up to him. Weaver will be a decent pitcher for the next several years, but he won't be the star pitcher that Liriano or Verlander will be**Caveat: assuming no injuries

Weaver is solid, but he gives up way too many fly balls to be a top of the line ace in the big leagues. Give me Liriano, King Felix, and Verlander before the Jeff Weaver clone (minus the two-cent head).

 

[thecatch]

The worst part is that the Giants traded Nathan, Liriano AND another prospect for Pierzinski...

The Giants are the big losers in that deal.Nathan and Liriano are outstanding.

AJ has a World Series ring and is in the All Star game.

The Giants have absolutely NOTHING to show for any of those players now.

Yeah, pretty much one of the worst trades ever. Sabean gets so much credit for his lopsided trades over the years, but he doesn't seem to have gotten enough heat for this one. Even had they kept AJ, it'd be awful.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Wow is Papelbon being undervalued here. If you are comparing Papelbon the closer to all of the other young guns as starters than I cant argue. I think the closer position is vastly overrated.

After Papelbon puts in a full year as a starter next year, then we will see where he stands.

I personally think he projects to be 2nd on the list of pitchers we are using, behind Liriano but ahead of Verlander.

 

[GRIDIRON ASSASSIN]

The worst part is that the Giants traded Nathan, Liriano AND another prospect for Pierzinski...

The Giants are the big losers in that deal.Nathan and Liriano are outstanding.

AJ has a World Series ring and is in the All Star game.

The Giants have absolutely NOTHING to show for any of those players now.

Yeah, pretty much one of the worst trades ever. Sabean gets so much credit for his lopsided trades over the years, but he doesn't seem to have gotten enough heat for this one. Even had they kept AJ, it'd be awful.

Ya, they would have probably had to pay AJ a boatload. The White Sox signed him on the cheap towards the end of the offseason prior to last year.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

PS- Poor 2006 numbers aside, if you can watch Brad Lidge pitch and say he is "not good at all", then I can confidently say you are completely clueless. Time to move along.

Time to move something alright.Let me move another L in the Lidge column

Let's see:

Another blown save. That's 4 on the year

0-3 W-L record

That stellar ERA is up to 5.79 now. Dang! He's awesome isn't he?

42 IP, 39H, and 23 BB. God, he is so good!

That stellar 1.48 WHIP He's got that good stuff working now baby!

.339 OBA...He has TREMENDOUS stuff

He absolutely OWNS lefties. They are only hitting .409 against him. He RULES!

He has the righties down to .279 though so...um...he still sucks.

Put him on the road and he's getting hit with an OBA of .343

He's awesome at home as his OBA is much lower. It's only .336

You are so right. I can't believe that I can't tell he has such good stuff.

Everybody give it up for RockNRolen!

Peter Gammons should just retire. RockNRolen will gladly take his place and tell us how great Lidge is.

After your done sweeping and mopping why don't you get me a beer.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

You don't even need to be good at all

See:

Brad Lidge

Give me a break. He's had a bad season this year, but dude has some of the best stuff in baseball. Terrible example.

Terrible example?Let's see how he's doing this year:

His WHIP last year was 1.15. Sure he got 42 Saves but besides the fact that Saves are a worthless stat, his WHIP came through in the playoffs.

This year his WHIP is 1.44

His ERA is 5.49!

He has 4 blown Saves

Lefties are hitting .295 against him and his WHIP against lefties is 2.00

He's given up 6 HR in 41 IP

22 BB in 41 IP for a 4.82 BB per 9 IP.

I'm pretty sure I already admitted to a subpar season thus far. He's definitely missing with his slider and relying too much on his fastball. Hitters can sit on the heater when he can't locate his slider.

I like how you completely ignored 2004 and only referenced the 1.15 WHIP in 2005. Way to paint the complete picture.

The WHOLE picture is that he hasn't gotten over the Pujols HR in the playoffsHe isn't the same pitcher anymore

 

[Big Papi]

PS- Poor 2006 numbers aside, if you can watch Brad Lidge pitch and say he is "not good at all", then I can confidently say you are completely clueless. Time to move along.

Time to move something alright.Let me move another L in the Lidge column

Let's see:

Another blown save. That's 4 on the year

0-3 W-L record

That stellar ERA is up to 5.79 now. Dang! He's awesome isn't he?

42 IP, 39H, and 23 BB. God, he is so good!

That stellar 1.48 WHIP He's got that good stuff working now baby!

.339 OBA...He has TREMENDOUS stuff

He absolutely OWNS lefties. They are only hitting .409 against him. He RULES!

He has the righties down to .279 though so...um...he still sucks.

Put him on the road and he's getting hit with an OBA of .343

He's awesome at home as his OBA is much lower. It's only .336

You are so right. I can't believe that I can't tell he has such good stuff.

Everybody give it up for RockNRolen!

Peter Gammons should just retire. RockNRolen will gladly take his place and tell us how great Lidge is.

After your done sweeping and mopping why don't you get me a beer.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

PS- Poor 2006 numbers aside, if you can watch Brad Lidge pitch and say he is "not good at all", then I can confidently say you are completely clueless. Time to move along.

Time to move something alright.Let me move another L in the Lidge column

Let's see:

Another blown save. That's 4 on the year

0-3 W-L record

That stellar ERA is up to 5.79 now. Dang! He's awesome isn't he?

42 IP, 39H, and 23 BB. God, he is so good!

That stellar 1.48 WHIP He's got that good stuff working now baby!

.339 OBA...He has TREMENDOUS stuff

He absolutely OWNS lefties. They are only hitting .409 against him. He RULES!

He has the righties down to .279 though so...um...he still sucks.

Put him on the road and he's getting hit with an OBA of .343

He's awesome at home as his OBA is much lower. It's only .336

You are so right. I can't believe that I can't tell he has such good stuff.

Everybody give it up for RockNRolen!

Peter Gammons should just retire. RockNRolen will gladly take his place and tell us how great Lidge is.

After your done sweeping and mopping why don't you get me a beer.

What do you want?

 

[RnR]

PS- Poor 2006 numbers aside, if you can watch Brad Lidge pitch and say he is "not good at all", then I can confidently say you are completely clueless. Time to move along.

Time to move something alright.Let me move another L in the Lidge column

Let's see:

Another blown save. That's 4 on the year

0-3 W-L record

That stellar ERA is up to 5.79 now. Dang! He's awesome isn't he?

42 IP, 39H, and 23 BB. God, he is so good!

That stellar 1.48 WHIP He's got that good stuff working now baby!

.339 OBA...He has TREMENDOUS stuff

He absolutely OWNS lefties. They are only hitting .409 against him. He RULES!

He has the righties down to .279 though so...um...he still sucks.

Put him on the road and he's getting hit with an OBA of .343

He's awesome at home as his OBA is much lower. It's only .336

You are so right. I can't believe that I can't tell he has such good stuff.

Everybody give it up for RockNRolen!

Peter Gammons should just retire. RockNRolen will gladly take his place and tell us how great Lidge is.

After your done sweeping and mopping why don't you get me a beer.

You sure are good at completely ignoring what I say. Lidge is struggling in 2006, no question. I've admitted that multiple times in this thread. You said that guys that aren't any good get saves and listed Lidge as one of them. I called you on it, and all you can do is keep referring to 1/2 of a season here in 2006. Lidge is a good pitcher having a rough season. I'm not sure how this isn't evident. When he is right, his fastball is in the high 90's and his slider is probably one of the top 3 pitches in all of baseball. I'm not letting one bad half of a season cloud my vision.

Clearly you are here...

What I can't believe is that I'm having to sit here and defend Brad Lidge as a Cardinals fan. Ugh.

 

[David Yudkin]

Well, if you value The Sporting News' opinion, they said Papelbon was the first half MVP, Cy Young, and Rookie of the Year.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

PS- Poor 2006 numbers aside, if you can watch Brad Lidge pitch and say he is "not good at all", then I can confidently say you are completely clueless. Time to move along.

Time to move something alright.Let me move another L in the Lidge column

Let's see:

Another blown save. That's 4 on the year

0-3 W-L record

That stellar ERA is up to 5.79 now. Dang! He's awesome isn't he?

42 IP, 39H, and 23 BB. God, he is so good!

That stellar 1.48 WHIP He's got that good stuff working now baby!

.339 OBA...He has TREMENDOUS stuff

He absolutely OWNS lefties. They are only hitting .409 against him. He RULES!

He has the righties down to .279 though so...um...he still sucks.

Put him on the road and he's getting hit with an OBA of .343

He's awesome at home as his OBA is much lower. It's only .336

You are so right. I can't believe that I can't tell he has such good stuff.

Everybody give it up for RockNRolen!

Peter Gammons should just retire. RockNRolen will gladly take his place and tell us how great Lidge is.

After your done sweeping and mopping why don't you get me a beer.

You sure are good at completely ignoring what I say. Lidge is struggling in 2006, no question. I've admitted that multiple times in this thread. You said that guys that aren't any good get saves and listed Lidge as one of them. I called you on it, and all you can do is keep referring to 1/2 of a season here in 2006. Lidge is a good pitcher having a rough season. I'm not sure how this isn't evident. When he is right, his fastball is in the high 90's and his slider is probably one of the top 3 pitches in all of baseball. I'm not letting one bad half of a season cloud my vision.

Clearly you are here...

What I can't believe is that I'm having to sit here and defend Brad Lidge as a Cardinals fan. Ugh.

I'm not fishingThe guy has lost it.

He has NO, none, nada, zilch confidence in his pitching anymore.

Did you watch the game last night?

The Astros bench could see him out there coming unglued (See Pettite)

You could see Lidge had no confidence in that slider

Go back to the playoffs last year and then to this year. He has struggled now since those playoffs and I won't be surprised if the Astros try and do something. Like move Lidge out of the closer role OR move him out all together.

A change of scenery might, just might help him get that ERA down to a 4 or 4.50

 

[RnR]

PS- Poor 2006 numbers aside, if you can watch Brad Lidge pitch and say he is "not good at all", then I can confidently say you are completely clueless. Time to move along.

Time to move something alright.Let me move another L in the Lidge column

Let's see:

Another blown save. That's 4 on the year

0-3 W-L record

That stellar ERA is up to 5.79 now. Dang! He's awesome isn't he?

42 IP, 39H, and 23 BB. God, he is so good!

That stellar 1.48 WHIP He's got that good stuff working now baby!

.339 OBA...He has TREMENDOUS stuff

He absolutely OWNS lefties. They are only hitting .409 against him. He RULES!

He has the righties down to .279 though so...um...he still sucks.

Put him on the road and he's getting hit with an OBA of .343

He's awesome at home as his OBA is much lower. It's only .336

You are so right. I can't believe that I can't tell he has such good stuff.

Everybody give it up for RockNRolen!

Peter Gammons should just retire. RockNRolen will gladly take his place and tell us how great Lidge is.

After your done sweeping and mopping why don't you get me a beer.

You sure are good at completely ignoring what I say. Lidge is struggling in 2006, no question. I've admitted that multiple times in this thread. You said that guys that aren't any good get saves and listed Lidge as one of them. I called you on it, and all you can do is keep referring to 1/2 of a season here in 2006. Lidge is a good pitcher having a rough season. I'm not sure how this isn't evident. When he is right, his fastball is in the high 90's and his slider is probably one of the top 3 pitches in all of baseball. I'm not letting one bad half of a season cloud my vision.

Clearly you are here...

What I can't believe is that I'm having to sit here and defend Brad Lidge as a Cardinals fan. Ugh.

I'm not fishingThe guy has lost it.

He has NO, none, nada, zilch confidence in his pitching anymore.

Did you watch the game last night?

The Astros bench could see him out there coming unglued (See Pettite)

You could see Lidge had no confidence in that slider

Go back to the playoffs last year and then to this year. He has struggled now since those playoffs and I won't be surprised if the Astros try and do something. Like move Lidge out of the closer role OR move him out all together.

A change of scenery might, just might help him get that ERA down to a 4 or 4.50

What part of "I'M NOT LETTING A COUPLE OF BAD MONTHS FOR LIDGE CHANGE MY OPINION ON WHAT KIND OF PITCHER HE IS" do you not understand? Lidge was very good in 2004 and 2005. One of the best relievers in the game by any metrics. Sure, maybe the Pujols HR has some sort of lasting effect on his swagger, but let's be serious. It was one HR. The Astros went on to win the series without a problem. It's over. You can't possibily think baseball players are that fragile can you?I watched the game last night. I watched him get Pujols out, strike Rolen out, and take Miles to a 1-2 count before he slapped a fast ball down the third base line. Part of that is Lidge not having confidence in getting his slider over the plate on that pitch, and part of it was dumb luck on Miles' part. I can admit that as a Cardinals fan.

 

[RKMoney]

I have already gotten Lidge in one of my baseball fantasy leagues today and will try the others. He's never been this dirt cheap and given his K's and Save opps, he should be fine second half of season.

 

[Northern Voice]

Funny how if there were a first half Cy Young, he would win, yet he wasn't good enough to make the all-star game.

I can't imagine that has ever happened before.

Enlighten us on the last 'first half Cy Young' winner. Was that back in '69 when the Cubs were the 'first half World Series' champion?

OMG LOL That is so funny. Last year probably would have been Roy Halladay.

Maybe this years as well.

 

[SofaKings]

Back to Steve's original post.. I agree that Liriano should be on the All-Star roster, but Cy Young? I dunno. Close, but.. in addition to Papelbon,

Justin Verlander is another young buck having a TREMENDOUS first half.

All three are lights out right now, but if we're talking talent and doing the "which one would you take as a GM" thing, then it would be like Liriano (barely) over Verlander and then Papelbon. That's just my opinion and Verlander might even be the best of the three. Liriano is filthy right now though and Papelbon is white hot as a closer.

All three are vital to their team's chances down the stretch.

Verlander is not the best of the three3.01 ERA

A 1.17 WHIP

11 HRA

Remember folks, Liriano wasn't even in the starting rotation at the beginning of the year.

Gardnerforhire thought Scott Baker was more ready for the big leagues as a starter.

He said "might". Geez.

 

[Big Papi]

PS- Poor 2006 numbers aside, if you can watch Brad Lidge pitch and say he is "not good at all", then I can confidently say you are completely clueless. Time to move along.

Time to move something alright.Let me move another L in the Lidge column

Let's see:

Another blown save. That's 4 on the year

0-3 W-L record

That stellar ERA is up to 5.79 now. Dang! He's awesome isn't he?

42 IP, 39H, and 23 BB. God, he is so good!

That stellar 1.48 WHIP He's got that good stuff working now baby!

.339 OBA...He has TREMENDOUS stuff

He absolutely OWNS lefties. They are only hitting .409 against him. He RULES!

He has the righties down to .279 though so...um...he still sucks.

Put him on the road and he's getting hit with an OBA of .343

He's awesome at home as his OBA is much lower. It's only .336

You are so right. I can't believe that I can't tell he has such good stuff.

Everybody give it up for RockNRolen!

Peter Gammons should just retire. RockNRolen will gladly take his place and tell us how great Lidge is.

After your done sweeping and mopping why don't you get me a beer.

What do you want?

Gammons is essentially retired - last I heard, he's still in the hospital because of a brain aneurysm. Just seemed to be bad form on your part there

 

[Jules Winnfield]

PS- Poor 2006 numbers aside, if you can watch Brad Lidge pitch and say he is "not good at all", then I can confidently say you are completely clueless. Time to move along.

Time to move something alright.Let me move another L in the Lidge column

Let's see:

Another blown save. That's 4 on the year

0-3 W-L record

That stellar ERA is up to 5.79 now. Dang! He's awesome isn't he?

42 IP, 39H, and 23 BB. God, he is so good!

That stellar 1.48 WHIP He's got that good stuff working now baby!

.339 OBA...He has TREMENDOUS stuff

He absolutely OWNS lefties. They are only hitting .409 against him. He RULES!

He has the righties down to .279 though so...um...he still sucks.

Put him on the road and he's getting hit with an OBA of .343

He's awesome at home as his OBA is much lower. It's only .336

You are so right. I can't believe that I can't tell he has such good stuff.

Everybody give it up for RockNRolen!

Peter Gammons should just retire. RockNRolen will gladly take his place and tell us how great Lidge is.

After your done sweeping and mopping why don't you get me a beer.

What do you want?

Gammons is essentially retired - last I heard, he's still in the hospital because of a brain aneurysm. Just seemed to be bad form on your part there

Um sure. Whatever.All it was is that you got to use the penalty flag throwing smilie.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Halliday will win the AL Cy Young this year.