Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (1 Viewer)

[TobiasFunke]

There's no reason to conflate protestors with shooters (is there more than one shooter?), or for that matter protestors with looters. The shots supposedly came from a distance, but even if it came from right in the middle of a crowd of protestors that doesn't mean you can group them together. And the same thing goes for referring to the "protestors who were looting." You wouldn't do it in any other context. For example your politics seem to lean right, as do those of many of our country's outspoken bigots- would you have a problem if I referred to everyone on that side of the political spectrum as conservatives/bigots?

Ahh, but the shooters and looters are a subset of the broader group we call "protesters". Your analogy works as well: outspoken conservative bigots are a subset of the broader group of people who lean to the political right.

That's not really true- the shots came from a distance rather than as part of the protests, and most reports indicated that the looters were mostly late arrivals looking to take advantage of the chaos rather than people participating in protests who just randomly decided they needed to bust up a convenience store.

Also this grew out of a dialogue where originally matttyl made no distinction at all, referring to the criminal behavior of the protestors. The later posts were better, but still unfair IMO,

As for the analogy- I chose it only to show how it's incredibly annoying when a group of which you're a part is wrongly associated with something almost everyone considers terrible. It wasn't meant to be a perfect analogy.

So an analogy is a comparison?

Sure, why not. A specific type of comparison, I guess. Score one for you, negative one internet point for me.

Anyway, the reason conflating protestors with shooters or looters bugs me is that in this particular case I think it's contributing to the downward spiral. The largely black protestors, most of whom are behaving responsibly, all of a sudden find themselves accountable for the behavior of other people with whom they have almost nothing in common other than skin color. And that makes them angrier, which escalates tensions and results in police coming out in riot gear with guns drawn, which in turn makes the protestors more upset and contributes to the sense that they're being treated poorly, and so on.

Ok, fair enough. So where are they trying to stop this - both now with the current situation, as well as with all the situations that lead up to this? Why do we only hear about the outrage that they have against Wilson (or Zimmerman vs Martin) but you rarely if ever hear of the outrage of black on black crime? Maybe it's all the black on black, and honestly black on non-black crime which initially is causing much of the escalated tensions and contributes to "the sense that they're being treated poorly"?

Plenty of protestors have said and done things to discourage looting or violence, so you can dismiss that complaint immediately. Here's a bunch of images and tweets from reporters and others if you don't believe me and don't feel like googling it.

The black on black crime thing is a nonsense and borderline racist argument, for at least two reasons.

One, nobody talks about white on white crime even though most violent crimes against white people are committed by other white people. That actually ties perfectly to what I said in the previous post- people make "the black community" responsible for the actions of others in the community in a way they don't do elsewhere, which is part of the problem and part of the reason for the anger. Here's Larry Wilmore taking that approach to critiquing the "black on black crime" argument.

Two, they do talk about it. Here's a litany of examples from Te-Nehisi Coates. Here's more from him on the subject. White people just assume they don't because ... well, I'm not quite sure why.

It's borderline racist to talk about black on black crime now?

You guys crack me up . Everybody that brings up a counterpoint to something is a racist or bigot for doing so. It's a nice bubble you've built there.

I never called anyone a racist or bigot. I called an argument "borderline racist," because it's a terrible borderline racist argument, and I gave two very good reasons why. I'm fairly sure matttyl is not a racist- he seems like a good guy and I respect him a lot, and I hope he feels the same way about me. I just think he posited a bad argument and possibly hadn't considered the ignorant and possibly racist implications of it, so I pointed out two of the obvious problems with it. Two reasons you didn't bother to address while complaining about how my response to a counterpoint, by the way.

 

[Sweet J]

Stop breaking the law. If you have broken the law and are caught do not flee, resist, or argue. Comply and Keep your mouth shut, as is you Constitutional right. If you are wrongfully accused have the brains to not argue that fact with the wrongful accuser/cop. Arguing is not going to get that person to change their mind and it conflates the situation. Wait to make your arguments with a cool head and cooled passions in court, perhaps with the aid and assistance of a criminal defense attorney who also has a civil rights specialist in their firm. Taking matters into your own hands, against an armed officer, on the volatile and unpredictable streets is never the answer, and yet far too many try just that.

I know this is really easy to say. And right in concept.

But.

I'm a white guy in my forties who works for the federal government, and the thought of being physically restrained and helpless while (potentially) currupt and dangerous and (potentially) life-threatening people with the state-backed power to end my life do with me as they will makes my skin crawl. I can't imagine what it feels like for a black person who KNOWS that police have gotten away with shooting/killing innocent black folks feels.

The only comparison I can think about is if I am travaling in another country where I know that the citizens distrust/fear my race/nationality at best (and fear/hate us at worst). Mexico? Liberia? Russia? Cambodia? Columbia? Whatever. Now imagine I've gotten stopped/detained by the police and fear that the police with hurt me very badly if they incapacitate me. Will I have an urge to resist or run, rather than trust that if I submit I won't be hurt? You bet your ###.

And I wonder if that is what it feels like to be a young black man dealing with police in the united states -- the same way I'd feel as a white american dealing with Columbian police, or Somali police, or Russian police.

It's easy to say: "just comply with the police." If you are a race and class that isn't scared shtless (with good reason) of the police.

Oh my God, you are really going to compare American police to Mexico, Liberia, Cambodia and Columbia? Is there a profiling issue in this country where black people get targeted for routine stops more than white people? Absolutely. Are the police indiscriminately killing black people in this country for no reason? No.

I don't think you have any concept of how black people in this country get treated by police. Or how they feel about it. None.

 

[whiskey7]

There's no reason to conflate protestors with shooters (is there more than one shooter?), or for that matter protestors with looters. The shots supposedly came from a distance, but even if it came from right in the middle of a crowd of protestors that doesn't mean you can group them together. And the same thing goes for referring to the "protestors who were looting." You wouldn't do it in any other context. For example your politics seem to lean right, as do those of many of our country's outspoken bigots- would you have a problem if I referred to everyone on that side of the political spectrum as conservatives/bigots?

Ahh, but the shooters and looters are a subset of the broader group we call "protesters". Your analogy works as well: outspoken conservative bigots are a subset of the broader group of people who lean to the political right.

That's not really true- the shots came from a distance rather than as part of the protests, and most reports indicated that the looters were mostly late arrivals looking to take advantage of the chaos rather than people participating in protests who just randomly decided they needed to bust up a convenience store.

Also this grew out of a dialogue where originally matttyl made no distinction at all, referring to the criminal behavior of the protestors. The later posts were better, but still unfair IMO,

As for the analogy- I chose it only to show how it's incredibly annoying when a group of which you're a part is wrongly associated with something almost everyone considers terrible. It wasn't meant to be a perfect analogy.

So an analogy is a comparison?

Sure, why not. A specific type of comparison, I guess. Score one for you, negative one internet point for me.

Anyway, the reason conflating protestors with shooters or looters bugs me is that in this particular case I think it's contributing to the downward spiral. The largely black protestors, most of whom are behaving responsibly, all of a sudden find themselves accountable for the behavior of other people with whom they have almost nothing in common other than skin color. And that makes them angrier, which escalates tensions and results in police coming out in riot gear with guns drawn, which in turn makes the protestors more upset and contributes to the sense that they're being treated poorly, and so on.

Ok, fair enough. So where are they trying to stop this - both now with the current situation, as well as with all the situations that lead up to this? Why do we only hear about the outrage that they have against Wilson (or Zimmerman vs Martin) but you rarely if ever hear of the outrage of black on black crime? Maybe it's all the black on black, and honestly black on non-black crime which initially is causing much of the escalated tensions and contributes to "the sense that they're being treated poorly"?

Plenty of protestors have said and done things to discourage looting or violence, so you can dismiss that complaint immediately. Here's a bunch of images and tweets from reporters and others if you don't believe me and don't feel like googling it.

The black on black crime thing is a nonsense and borderline racist argument, for at least two reasons.

One, nobody talks about white on white crime even though most violent crimes against white people are committed by other white people. That actually ties perfectly to what I said in the previous post- people make "the black community" responsible for the actions of others in the community in a way they don't do elsewhere, which is part of the problem and part of the reason for the anger. Here's Larry Wilmore taking that approach to critiquing the "black on black crime" argument.

Two, they do talk about it. Here's a litany of examples from Te-Nehisi Coates. Here's more from him on the subject. White people just assume they don't because ... well, I'm not quite sure why.

It's borderline racist to talk about black on black crime now?

You guys crack me up . Everybody that brings up a counterpoint to something is a racist or bigot for doing so. It's a nice bubble you've built there.

I never called anyone a racist or bigot. I called an argument "borderline racist," because it's a terrible borderline racist argument, and I gave two very good reasons why. I'm fairly sure matttyl is not a racist- he seems like a good guy and I respect him a lot, and I hope he feels the same way about me. I just think he posited a bad argument and possibly hadn't considered the ignorant and possibly racist implications of it, so I pointed out two of the obvious problems with it. Two reasons you didn't bother to address while complaining about how my response to a counterpoint, by the way.

The reason the black on black crime argument is brought up as much as it is is because it happens far more often than white on black (or cop on black) crime yet doesn't receive nearly the same negative outrage. In fact, its often celebrated. Look what happened this week with that girl at the McDonalds. Listen to a rap song sometime. Beat-down or kill your (perceived) enemies and you are the #### is the message. But, in the case of a white person/cop harming a black person, thousands take to the streets screaming about how black lives matter. How many of those people in McDonalds laughing or cheering (perhaps even involved in the fight) were also in Times Square "protesting" and chanting about black lives matter and the cops need to treat them with respect? Surely you realize how fraudulent many of them make themselves look.

 

[jonessed]

There's no reason to conflate protestors with shooters (is there more than one shooter?), or for that matter protestors with looters. The shots supposedly came from a distance, but even if it came from right in the middle of a crowd of protestors that doesn't mean you can group them together. And the same thing goes for referring to the "protestors who were looting." You wouldn't do it in any other context. For example your politics seem to lean right, as do those of many of our country's outspoken bigots- would you have a problem if I referred to everyone on that side of the political spectrum as conservatives/bigots?

Ahh, but the shooters and looters are a subset of the broader group we call "protesters". Your analogy works as well: outspoken conservative bigots are a subset of the broader group of people who lean to the political right.

That's not really true- the shots came from a distance rather than as part of the protests, and most reports indicated that the looters were mostly late arrivals looking to take advantage of the chaos rather than people participating in protests who just randomly decided they needed to bust up a convenience store.

Also this grew out of a dialogue where originally matttyl made no distinction at all, referring to the criminal behavior of the protestors. The later posts were better, but still unfair IMO,

As for the analogy- I chose it only to show how it's incredibly annoying when a group of which you're a part is wrongly associated with something almost everyone considers terrible. It wasn't meant to be a perfect analogy.

So an analogy is a comparison?

Sure, why not. A specific type of comparison, I guess. Score one for you, negative one internet point for me.

Anyway, the reason conflating protestors with shooters or looters bugs me is that in this particular case I think it's contributing to the downward spiral. The largely black protestors, most of whom are behaving responsibly, all of a sudden find themselves accountable for the behavior of other people with whom they have almost nothing in common other than skin color. And that makes them angrier, which escalates tensions and results in police coming out in riot gear with guns drawn, which in turn makes the protestors more upset and contributes to the sense that they're being treated poorly, and so on.

Ok, fair enough. So where are they trying to stop this - both now with the current situation, as well as with all the situations that lead up to this? Why do we only hear about the outrage that they have against Wilson (or Zimmerman vs Martin) but you rarely if ever hear of the outrage of black on black crime? Maybe it's all the black on black, and honestly black on non-black crime which initially is causing much of the escalated tensions and contributes to "the sense that they're being treated poorly"?

Plenty of protestors have said and done things to discourage looting or violence, so you can dismiss that complaint immediately. Here's a bunch of images and tweets from reporters and others if you don't believe me and don't feel like googling it.

The black on black crime thing is a nonsense and borderline racist argument, for at least two reasons.

One, nobody talks about white on white crime even though most violent crimes against white people are committed by other white people. That actually ties perfectly to what I said in the previous post- people make "the black community" responsible for the actions of others in the community in a way they don't do elsewhere, which is part of the problem and part of the reason for the anger. Here's Larry Wilmore taking that approach to critiquing the "black on black crime" argument.

Two, they do talk about it. Here's a litany of examples from Te-Nehisi Coates. Here's more from him on the subject. White people just assume they don't because ... well, I'm not quite sure why.

It's borderline racist to talk about black on black crime now?You guys crack me up . Everybody that brings up a counterpoint to something is a racist or bigot for doing so. It's a nice bubble you've built there.

I never called anyone a racist or bigot. I called an argument "borderline racist," because it's a terrible borderline racist argument, and I gave two very good reasons why. I'm fairly sure matttyl is not a racist- he seems like a good guy and I respect him a lot, and I hope he feels the same way about me. I just think he posited a bad argument and possibly hadn't considered the ignorant and possibly racist implications of it, so I pointed out two of the obvious problems with it. Two reasons you didn't bother to address while complaining about how my response to a counterpoint, by the way.

Of course I didn't bother to address them. Why would people talk about white-on-white crime in the context of black homicides? If the numbers are comparable make the argument. Simply not mentioning it does not make the whole argument racist. That's absurd.

 

[matttyl]

Plenty of protestors have said and done things to discourage looting or violence, so you can dismiss that complaint immediately. Here's a bunch of images and tweets from reporters and others if you don't believe me and don't feel like googling it.

The black on black crime thing is a nonsense and borderline racist argument, for at least two reasons.

One, nobody talks about white on white crime even though most violent crimes against white people are committed by other white people. That actually ties perfectly to what I said in the previous post- people make "the black community" responsible for the actions of others in the community in a way they don't do elsewhere, which is part of the problem and part of the reason for the anger. Here's Larry Wilmore taking that approach to critiquing the "black on black crime" argument.

Two, they do talk about it. Here's a litany of examples from Te-Nehisi Coates. Here's more from him on the subject. White people just assume they don't because ... well, I'm not quite sure why.

Tobias, I didn't mean to imply that there aren't those type of protests and such. I'm talking about the bigger picture, though - what the average American sees. If you have to google it to find it, then it doesn't exist in their heads (and what you found via google is 7 months old). They don't see it on a daily basis.

What do they see and hear? People attempting to hold a white officer accountable for an "unarmed black teens death". Same with Zimmerman. Now they see the news of more officers in that department not just being shot at, but actually shot. Where was or is the public outcry for Officer Terence Avery Green of Fulton Co., Georgia (black on black crime), Officer Robert Wilson, III of Philly (black with extensive criminal history on black crime), or of Deputy Marshall Josie Wells (black on black crime) - all within the last 10 days?

Hell, the Meritt Landry and Marshall Coulter situation in New Orleans (white guys shoots unarmed black kid attempting to rob his house) got more attention than all 3 of those combined.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Stop breaking the law. If you have broken the law and are caught do not flee, resist, or argue. Comply and Keep your mouth shut, as is you Constitutional right. If you are wrongfully accused have the brains to not argue that fact with the wrongful accuser/cop. Arguing is not going to get that person to change their mind and it conflates the situation. Wait to make your arguments with a cool head and cooled passions in court, perhaps with the aid and assistance of a criminal defense attorney who also has a civil rights specialist in their firm. Taking matters into your own hands, against an armed officer, on the volatile and unpredictable streets is never the answer, and yet far too many try just that.

I know this is really easy to say. And right in concept.

But.

I'm a white guy in my forties who works for the federal government, and the thought of being physically restrained and helpless while (potentially) currupt and dangerous and (potentially) life-threatening people with the state-backed power to end my life do with me as they will makes my skin crawl. I can't imagine what it feels like for a black person who KNOWS that police have gotten away with shooting/killing innocent black folks feels.

The only comparison I can think about is if I am travaling in another country where I know that the citizens distrust/fear my race/nationality at best (and fear/hate us at worst). Mexico? Liberia? Russia? Cambodia? Columbia? Whatever. Now imagine I've gotten stopped/detained by the police and fear that the police with hurt me very badly if they incapacitate me. Will I have an urge to resist or run, rather than trust that if I submit I won't be hurt? You bet your ###.

And I wonder if that is what it feels like to be a young black man dealing with police in the united states -- the same way I'd feel as a white american dealing with Columbian police, or Somali police, or Russian police.

It's easy to say: "just comply with the police." If you are a race and class that isn't scared shtless (with good reason) of the police.

Oh my God, you are really going to compare American police to Mexico, Liberia, Cambodia and Columbia? Is there a profiling issue in this country where black people get targeted for routine stops more than white people? Absolutely. Are the police indiscriminately killing black people in this country for no reason? No.

I don't think you have any concept of how black people in this country get treated by police. Or how they feel about it. None.

You mean how black people perceive the police treat them. Police do not like criminals.. period. They don't care if you are a black criminal, a white criminal or a Latin criminal.. period. If you don't want to have negative contact with the police, do not commit crimes..period. Unfortunately many times black (criminals) seem to think the police are hard on them because they are black, they fail to make a correlation between the crime they committed and the reason the police are making contact with them.. Again there are exceptions to every rule but the police really don't give a #### what color your skin is, they want you to obey the law...period.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

In the past, in intractable situations spiraling and cycling ever lower, we have had men of vision, courage, and fortitude step outside of the cycle and who through great personal sacrifice have set us on new courses. Where is the next Ghandi, the next King, men who march into the future instead of wallowing in parsing the past for inequities?

 

[Sabertooth]

In the past, in intractable situations spiraling and cycling ever lower, we have had men of vision, courage, and fortitude step outside of the cycle and who through great personal sacrifice have set us on new courses. Where is the next Ghandi, the next King, men who march into the future instead of wallowing in parsing the past for inequities?

Probably home doing the dishes.

 

[Hang 10]

It seems that we need to somehow perfect policing before we can ask a community to stop breaking the law so often. That plan doesn't seem to be working out so well but who knows maybe we are just couple protests away. :fingerscrossed:

 

[TobiasFunke]

Plenty of protestors have said and done things to discourage looting or violence, so you can dismiss that complaint immediately. Here's a bunch of images and tweets from reporters and others if you don't believe me and don't feel like googling it.

The black on black crime thing is a nonsense and borderline racist argument, for at least two reasons.

One, nobody talks about white on white crime even though most violent crimes against white people are committed by other white people. That actually ties perfectly to what I said in the previous post- people make "the black community" responsible for the actions of others in the community in a way they don't do elsewhere, which is part of the problem and part of the reason for the anger. Here's Larry Wilmore taking that approach to critiquing the "black on black crime" argument.

Two, they do talk about it. Here's a litany of examples from Te-Nehisi Coates. Here's more from him on the subject. White people just assume they don't because ... well, I'm not quite sure why.

Tobias, I didn't mean to imply that there aren't those type of protests and such. I'm talking about the bigger picture, though - what the average American sees. If you have to google it to find it, then it doesn't exist in their heads (and what you found via google is 7 months old). They don't see it on a daily basis.

What do they see and hear? People attempting to hold a white officer accountable for an "unarmed black teens death". Same with Zimmerman. Now they see the news of more officers in that department not just being shot at, but actually shot. Where was or is the public outcry for Officer Terence Avery Green of Fulton Co., Georgia (black on black crime), Officer Robert Wilson, III of Philly (black with extensive criminal history on black crime), or of Deputy Marshall Josie Wells (black on black crime) - all within the last 10 days?

Hell, the Meritt Landry and Marshall Coulter situation in New Orleans (white guys shoots unarmed black kid attempting to rob his house) got more attention than all 3 of those combined.

The bolded is a problem ... but a completely different one than the one you were previously discussing, at least as I read it. I read your previous questions to mean why isn't the black community doing more to fight looting or "black on black crime." I answered that. Now you're asking why the media doesn't cover certain things, and why certain media outlets ask the "black on black crime" question and wrongly suggest that there's no outrage from the black community about it. I don't have answer to that question- you'd have to ask Roger Ailes, I guess.

As to the rest of your post, I'm not sure what your point is exactly. I was pointing out the folly of asking why blacks don't care more about black on black crime, or asking why the protestors didn't do more to stop the looting, both of which are false premises. I don't know what the relative media coverage or public outcry in response to police shootings vs racially charged incidents has to do with any of that.

 

[mcintyre1]

It seems that we need to somehow perfect policing before we can ask a community to stop breaking the law so often. That plan doesn't seem to be working out so well but who knows maybe we are just couple protests away. :fingerscrossed:

Thanks for the 4th grade level analysis of the issues at hand. Truly helpful.

 

[General Tso]

Stop breaking the law. If you have broken the law and are caught do not flee, resist, or argue. Comply and Keep your mouth shut, as is you Constitutional right. If you are wrongfully accused have the brains to not argue that fact with the wrongful accuser/cop. Arguing is not going to get that person to change their mind and it conflates the situation. Wait to make your arguments with a cool head and cooled passions in court, perhaps with the aid and assistance of a criminal defense attorney who also has a civil rights specialist in their firm. Taking matters into your own hands, against an armed officer, on the volatile and unpredictable streets is never the answer, and yet far too many try just that.

I know this is really easy to say. And right in concept.

But.

I'm a white guy in my forties who works for the federal government, and the thought of being physically restrained and helpless while (potentially) currupt and dangerous and (potentially) life-threatening people with the state-backed power to end my life do with me as they will makes my skin crawl. I can't imagine what it feels like for a black person who KNOWS that police have gotten away with shooting/killing innocent black folks feels.

The only comparison I can think about is if I am travaling in another country where I know that the citizens distrust/fear my race/nationality at best (and fear/hate us at worst). Mexico? Liberia? Russia? Cambodia? Columbia? Whatever. Now imagine I've gotten stopped/detained by the police and fear that the police with hurt me very badly if they incapacitate me. Will I have an urge to resist or run, rather than trust that if I submit I won't be hurt? You bet your ###.

And I wonder if that is what it feels like to be a young black man dealing with police in the united states -- the same way I'd feel as a white american dealing with Columbian police, or Somali police, or Russian police.

It's easy to say: "just comply with the police." If you are a race and class that isn't scared shtless (with good reason) of the police.

Oh my God, you are really going to compare American police to Mexico, Liberia, Cambodia and Columbia? Is there a profiling issue in this country where black people get targeted for routine stops more than white people? Absolutely. Are the police indiscriminately killing black people in this country for no reason? No.

Newspapers, television and internet down?

You do know that the media likes to sensationalize things a bit, right? Remember Deflategate? What was a national scandal from the media's standpoint turned out to be absolutely nothing.I'm not trying to trivialize the legitimate issues with police profiling and over usage of deadly force. But please - let's keep things in perspective. Take a trip to Mexico, Liberia, Columbia or Russia and tell me if that comparison is valid.

 

[mcintyre1]

I dont think its quite as simple as "they dont vote" or "apathy."

Id say a number of things contribute to the low voter turn out. For example, the DOJ investigation uncovered that law enforcement was motivated to ticket, arrest and incarcerate black people in the community to increase revenue. The more that are incarcerated directly affects voter turn out because people incarcerated, on probation or parole cant vote.

The Link Between Mass Incarceration and Voter Turnout
And then there is this

How Ferguson exposes the racial bias in local elections

Black voter turnout in Ferguson was weak relative to white voter turnout (as a percentage if not in an absolute basis). The idea that incarceration (based on revenue generaion) has anything other than an infinitessimal effect is crazy. You don't incarcerate people for jaywalking or parking violations.

You do when you start stacking non-payment of fines on top of the original violation.

 

[Hang 10]

It seems that we need to somehow perfect policing before we can ask a community to stop breaking the law so often. That plan doesn't seem to be working out so well but who knows maybe we are just couple protests away. :fingerscrossed:

Thanks for the 4th grade level analysis of the issues at hand. Truly helpful.

And I bet you were so close to a solution before I popped in.

 

[matttyl]

HAHA, white on white crime is never talked about, Tobias? Yeah, no one knows who Chris Kyle is. I mean, they didn't make a movie out of it or anything.

No one knows who James Eagan Holmes is either (Aurora movie theater shooter), and news of the Boston Marathon bombing never got out. No one knows Jarad and Amanda Miller (Las Vegas couple shooters), or Ronald Lee Haskell, Jr (the guy who killed 6 members of his ex-wife's family), Joel Smith (murder-suicide father who in all killed 5), Bradley William Stone (again, killer of 6 of his ex- wife's family).....

Fact is that there are just as many black on black murders as there are white on white murders. Ok, but there are 5.7x more whites than blacks. Is saying a black is nearly 6x as likely to kill a member of their own race as a white racist to say? Is it racist to say that over twice as many blacks kill whites as the other way around racist? Putting all that together, is it racist to say that an average black person is 12 times more likely to kill a white than the other way around - is that racist to say?

 

[matttyl]

Plenty of protestors have said and done things to discourage looting or violence, so you can dismiss that complaint immediately. Here's a bunch of images and tweets from reporters and others if you don't believe me and don't feel like googling it.

The black on black crime thing is a nonsense and borderline racist argument, for at least two reasons.

One, nobody talks about white on white crime even though most violent crimes against white people are committed by other white people. That actually ties perfectly to what I said in the previous post- people make "the black community" responsible for the actions of others in the community in a way they don't do elsewhere, which is part of the problem and part of the reason for the anger. Here's Larry Wilmore taking that approach to critiquing the "black on black crime" argument.

Two, they do talk about it. Here's a litany of examples from Te-Nehisi Coates. Here's more from him on the subject. White people just assume they don't because ... well, I'm not quite sure why.

Tobias, I didn't mean to imply that there aren't those type of protests and such. I'm talking about the bigger picture, though - what the average American sees. If you have to google it to find it, then it doesn't exist in their heads (and what you found via google is 7 months old). They don't see it on a daily basis.

What do they see and hear? People attempting to hold a white officer accountable for an "unarmed black teens death". Same with Zimmerman. Now they see the news of more officers in that department not just being shot at, but actually shot. Where was or is the public outcry for Officer Terence Avery Green of Fulton Co., Georgia (black on black crime), Officer Robert Wilson, III of Philly (black with extensive criminal history on black crime), or of Deputy Marshall Josie Wells (black on black crime) - all within the last 10 days?

Hell, the Meritt Landry and Marshall Coulter situation in New Orleans (white guys shoots unarmed black kid attempting to rob his house) got more attention than all 3 of those combined.

The bolded is a problem ... but a completely different one than the one you were previously discussing, at least as I read it. I read your previous questions to mean why isn't the black community doing more to fight looting or "black on black crime." I answered that. Now you're asking why the media doesn't cover certain things, and why certain media outlets ask the "black on black crime" question and wrongly suggest that there's no outrage from the black community about it. I don't have answer to that question- you'd have to ask Roger Ailes, I guess.

As to the rest of your post, I'm not sure what your point is exactly. I was pointing out the folly of asking why blacks don't care more about black on black crime, or asking why the protestors didn't do more to stop the looting, both of which are false premises. I don't know what the relative media coverage or public outcry in response to police shootings vs racially charged incidents has to do with any of that.

No, you didn't. You brought up a 7 month old article that you needed go find via google about "dozens" of people. That's not "the black community doing more" at all. I think you know that.

Where are the protests and marches of hundreds or thousands?

 

[mcintyre1]

Stop breaking the law. If you have broken the law and are caught do not flee, resist, or argue. Comply and Keep your mouth shut, as is you Constitutional right. If you are wrongfully accused have the brains to not argue that fact with the wrongful accuser/cop. Arguing is not going to get that person to change their mind and it conflates the situation. Wait to make your arguments with a cool head and cooled passions in court, perhaps with the aid and assistance of a criminal defense attorney who also has a civil rights specialist in their firm. Taking matters into your own hands, against an armed officer, on the volatile and unpredictable streets is never the answer, and yet far too many try just that.

You think people in this community have money for an attorney? They use court appointed attorneys which as you know based on the statement give you a lesser chance in court. Regardless of innocence. And as for do not flee or resist, thats easier said than done when your encounters with police are usually not them beating on you for no reason. their perception is quite difference. To them, the police are the violent ones, the police are to be feared. Its obvious that to many its better to take the chance of running than to risk what might happen if the police catch you. Again, the way you and I might handle a police encounter is extremely different to the way they may approach it. Its easy to say respect the police when they havent been terrorizing you and your friends and family for decades.

Alright. As a percentage of stops how many people are assaulted by police during that stop? You seem to be implying it's a very large number. It would probably be a good idea to start looking at the actual statistics.

Good luck finding those #'s. It'd be on the Ferguson PD to accurately report them, same as how it is voluntary for PD's across the country to report lethal use of force statistics.

 

[mcintyre1]

It seems that we need to somehow perfect policing before we can ask a community to stop breaking the law so often. That plan doesn't seem to be working out so well but who knows maybe we are just couple protests away. :fingerscrossed:

Thanks for the 4th grade level analysis of the issues at hand. Truly helpful.

And I bet you were so close to a solution before I popped in.

Still just knocking it out of the park. Keep at it buddy, you'll get there.

 

[General Tso]

2012 statistics (in the USA):

Number of arrests = 12,197,000

Police uses of deadly force = 410.

Look - we are the most armed-to-the-teeth country in the world. And nowadays people don't listen to instructions very well either. I think they do an amazing job all things considered. Could it be better? Yes. Must it be better? Yes. Is it on par with the corruption we see in Mexico? NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE.

 

[mcintyre1]

HAHA, white on white crime is never talked about, Tobias? Yeah, no one knows who Chris Kyle is. I mean, they didn't make a movie out of it or anything.

No one knows who James Eagan Holmes is either (Aurora movie theater shooter), and news of the Boston Marathon bombing never got out. No one knows Jarad and Amanda Miller (Las Vegas couple shooters), or Ronald Lee Haskell, Jr (the guy who killed 6 members of his ex-wife's family), Joel Smith (murder-suicide father who in all killed 5), Bradley William Stone (again, killer of 6 of his ex- wife's family).....

Fact is that there are just as many black on black murders as there are white on white murders. Ok, but there are 5.7x more whites than blacks. Is saying a black is nearly 6x as likely to kill a member of their own race as a white racist to say? Is it racist to say that over twice as many blacks kill whites as the other way around racist? Putting all that together, is it racist to say that an average black person is 12 times more likely to kill a white than the other way around - is that racist to say?

Your takeaway of American Sniper was the fade to black screen about how he was killed by a suicidal fellow vet? That's your paragon of "white on white" crime?

Plenty of protestors have said and done things to discourage looting or violence, so you can dismiss that complaint immediately. Here's a bunch of images and tweets from reporters and others if you don't believe me and don't feel like googling it.

The black on black crime thing is a nonsense and borderline racist argument, for at least two reasons.

One, nobody talks about white on white crime even though most violent crimes against white people are committed by other white people. That actually ties perfectly to what I said in the previous post- people make "the black community" responsible for the actions of others in the community in a way they don't do elsewhere, which is part of the problem and part of the reason for the anger. Here's Larry Wilmore taking that approach to critiquing the "black on black crime" argument.

Two, they do talk about it. Here's a litany of examples from Te-Nehisi Coates. Here's more from him on the subject. White people just assume they don't because ... well, I'm not quite sure why.

Tobias, I didn't mean to imply that there aren't those type of protests and such. I'm talking about the bigger picture, though - what the average American sees. If you have to google it to find it, then it doesn't exist in their heads (and what you found via google is 7 months old). They don't see it on a daily basis.

What do they see and hear? People attempting to hold a white officer accountable for an "unarmed black teens death". Same with Zimmerman. Now they see the news of more officers in that department not just being shot at, but actually shot. Where was or is the public outcry for Officer Terence Avery Green of Fulton Co., Georgia (black on black crime), Officer Robert Wilson, III of Philly (black with extensive criminal history on black crime), or of Deputy Marshall Josie Wells (black on black crime) - all within the last 10 days?

Hell, the Meritt Landry and Marshall Coulter situation in New Orleans (white guys shoots unarmed black kid attempting to rob his house) got more attention than all 3 of those combined.

The bolded is a problem ... but a completely different one than the one you were previously discussing, at least as I read it. I read your previous questions to mean why isn't the black community doing more to fight looting or "black on black crime." I answered that. Now you're asking why the media doesn't cover certain things, and why certain media outlets ask the "black on black crime" question and wrongly suggest that there's no outrage from the black community about it. I don't have answer to that question- you'd have to ask Roger Ailes, I guess.

As to the rest of your post, I'm not sure what your point is exactly. I was pointing out the folly of asking why blacks don't care more about black on black crime, or asking why the protestors didn't do more to stop the looting, both of which are false premises. I don't know what the relative media coverage or public outcry in response to police shootings vs racially charged incidents has to do with any of that.

No, you didn't. You brought up a 7 month old article that you needed go find via google about "dozens" of people. That's not "the black community doing more" at all. I think you know that.

Where are the protests and marches of hundreds or thousands?

The only reason you're not seeing black people advocating against black on black crime is because Fox News hasn't told you and you're unwilling to look for it on your own. You're seriously complaining that someone had to google something in order to find it? How's the economy back there in '92?

 

[whiskey7]

I dont think its quite as simple as "they dont vote" or "apathy."

Id say a number of things contribute to the low voter turn out. For example, the DOJ investigation uncovered that law enforcement was motivated to ticket, arrest and incarcerate black people in the community to increase revenue. The more that are incarcerated directly affects voter turn out because people incarcerated, on probation or parole cant vote.

The Link Between Mass Incarceration and Voter Turnout
And then there is this

How Ferguson exposes the racial bias in local elections

Black voter turnout in Ferguson was weak relative to white voter turnout (as a percentage if not in an absolute basis). The idea that incarceration (based on revenue generaion) has anything other than an infinitessimal effect is crazy. You don't incarcerate people for jaywalking or parking violations.

You do when you start stacking non-payment of fines on top of the original violation.

Which is evidence of racism or further non-compliance on the part of the charged?

 

[kentric]

Stop breaking the law. If you have broken the law and are caught do not flee, resist, or argue. Comply and Keep your mouth shut, as is you Constitutional right. If you are wrongfully accused have the brains to not argue that fact with the wrongful accuser/cop. Arguing is not going to get that person to change their mind and it conflates the situation. Wait to make your arguments with a cool head and cooled passions in court, perhaps with the aid and assistance of a criminal defense attorney who also has a civil rights specialist in their firm. Taking matters into your own hands, against an armed officer, on the volatile and unpredictable streets is never the answer, and yet far too many try just that.

I know this is really easy to say. And right in concept.

But.

I'm a white guy in my forties who works for the federal government, and the thought of being physically restrained and helpless while (potentially) currupt and dangerous and (potentially) life-threatening people with the state-backed power to end my life do with me as they will makes my skin crawl. I can't imagine what it feels like for a black person who KNOWS that police have gotten away with shooting/killing innocent black folks feels.

The only comparison I can think about is if I am travaling in another country where I know that the citizens distrust/fear my race/nationality at best (and fear/hate us at worst). Mexico? Liberia? Russia? Cambodia? Columbia? Whatever. Now imagine I've gotten stopped/detained by the police and fear that the police with hurt me very badly if they incapacitate me. Will I have an urge to resist or run, rather than trust that if I submit I won't be hurt? You bet your ###.

And I wonder if that is what it feels like to be a young black man dealing with police in the united states -- the same way I'd feel as a white american dealing with Columbian police, or Somali police, or Russian police.

It's easy to say: "just comply with the police." If you are a race and class that isn't scared shtless (with good reason) of the police.

Oh my God, you are really going to compare American police to Mexico, Liberia, Cambodia and Columbia? Is there a profiling issue in this country where black people get targeted for routine stops more than white people? Absolutely. Are the police indiscriminately killing black people in this country for no reason? No.

I don't think you have any concept of how black people in this country get treated by police. Or how they feel about it. None.

You mean how black people perceive the police treat them. Police do not like criminals.. period. They don't care if you are a black criminal, a white criminal or a Latin criminal.. period. If you don't want to have negative contact with the police, do not commit crimes..period. Unfortunately many times black (criminals) seem to think the police are hard on them because they are black, they fail to make a correlation between the crime they committed and the reason the police are making contact with them.. Again there are exceptions to every rule but the police really don't give a #### what color your skin is, they want you to obey the law...period.

It goes beyond crimes. Statistical evidence has shown that police in certain areas were more likely to pull a black motorist over than a white motorist (all other things being equal - same car, driving the same speed, etc.). There is not doubt about that. That in turn influences their view on law enforcement.

 

[mcintyre1]

Stop breaking the law. If you have broken the law and are caught do not flee, resist, or argue. Comply and Keep your mouth shut, as is you Constitutional right. If you are wrongfully accused have the brains to not argue that fact with the wrongful accuser/cop. Arguing is not going to get that person to change their mind and it conflates the situation. Wait to make your arguments with a cool head and cooled passions in court, perhaps with the aid and assistance of a criminal defense attorney who also has a civil rights specialist in their firm. Taking matters into your own hands, against an armed officer, on the volatile and unpredictable streets is never the answer, and yet far too many try just that.

You think people in this community have money for an attorney? They use court appointed attorneys which as you know based on the statement give you a lesser chance in court. Regardless of innocence. And as for do not flee or resist, thats easier said than done when your encounters with police are usually not them beating on you for no reason. their perception is quite difference. To them, the police are the violent ones, the police are to be feared. Its obvious that to many its better to take the chance of running than to risk what might happen if the police catch you. Again, the way you and I might handle a police encounter is extremely different to the way they may approach it. Its easy to say respect the police when they havent been terrorizing you and your friends and family for decades.

Alright. As a percentage of stops how many people are assaulted by police during that stop? You seem to be implying it's a very large number. It would probably be a good idea to start looking at the actual statistics.

Good luck finding those #'s. It'd be on the Ferguson PD to accurately report them, same as how it is voluntary for PD's across the country to report lethal use of force statistics.

How about national numbers?

They probably have some, but again, they'd be borderline useless because it would be self-reported data whose only purpose is to make the reporter look bad. Same reason why the lethal use of force statistics are considered junk and massively under reported.

 

[Hang 10]

It seems that we need to somehow perfect policing before we can ask a community to stop breaking the law so often. That plan doesn't seem to be working out so well but who knows maybe we are just couple protests away. :fingerscrossed:

Thanks for the 4th grade level analysis of the issues at hand. Truly helpful.

And I bet you were so close to a solution before I popped in.

Still just knocking it out of the park. Keep at it buddy, you'll get there.

Get where? But seriously quit wasting time with me when you could be solving that pesky race relations problem. We are all counting on you.

 

[Hang 10]

I dont think its quite as simple as "they dont vote" or "apathy."

Id say a number of things contribute to the low voter turn out. For example, the DOJ investigation uncovered that law enforcement was motivated to ticket, arrest and incarcerate black people in the community to increase revenue. The more that are incarcerated directly affects voter turn out because people incarcerated, on probation or parole cant vote.

The Link Between Mass Incarceration and Voter Turnout
And then there is this

How Ferguson exposes the racial bias in local elections

Black voter turnout in Ferguson was weak relative to white voter turnout (as a percentage if not in an absolute basis). The idea that incarceration (based on revenue generaion) has anything other than an infinitessimal effect is crazy. You don't incarcerate people for jaywalking or parking violations.

You do when you start stacking non-payment of fines on top of the original violation.

Which is evidence of racism or further non-compliance on the part of the charged?

Because the cops are white and the people breaking the law are black. Duh!

 

[jonessed]

Stop breaking the law. If you have broken the law and are caught do not flee, resist, or argue. Comply and Keep your mouth shut, as is you Constitutional right. If you are wrongfully accused have the brains to not argue that fact with the wrongful accuser/cop. Arguing is not going to get that person to change their mind and it conflates the situation. Wait to make your arguments with a cool head and cooled passions in court, perhaps with the aid and assistance of a criminal defense attorney who also has a civil rights specialist in their firm. Taking matters into your own hands, against an armed officer, on the volatile and unpredictable streets is never the answer, and yet far too many try just that.

You think people in this community have money for an attorney? They use court appointed attorneys which as you know based on the statement give you a lesser chance in court. Regardless of innocence. And as for do not flee or resist, thats easier said than done when your encounters with police are usually not them beating on you for no reason. their perception is quite difference. To them, the police are the violent ones, the police are to be feared. Its obvious that to many its better to take the chance of running than to risk what might happen if the police catch you. Again, the way you and I might handle a police encounter is extremely different to the way they may approach it. Its easy to say respect the police when they havent been terrorizing you and your friends and family for decades.

Alright. As a percentage of stops how many people are assaulted by police during that stop? You seem to be implying it's a very large number. It would probably be a good idea to start looking at the actual statistics.

Good luck finding those #'s. It'd be on the Ferguson PD to accurately report them, same as how it is voluntary for PD's across the country to report lethal use of force statistics.

How about national numbers?

They probably have some, but again, they'd be borderline useless because it would be self-reported data whose only purpose is to make the reporter look bad. Same reason why the lethal use of force statistics are considered junk and massively under reported.

So what's the argument based on? Anecdotes of one compared to anecdotes of the other. How do you measure scale like that?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

2012 statistics (in the USA):

Number of arrests = 12,197,000

Police uses of deadly force = 410.

Look - we are the most armed-to-the-teeth country in the world. And nowadays people don't listen to instructions very well either. I think they do an amazing job all things considered. Could it be better? Yes. Must it be better? Yes. Is it on par with the corruption we see in Mexico? NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE.

So .00003% of the time. Now how many of those involved a white officer and a black person.

 

[kentric]

I dont think its quite as simple as "they dont vote" or "apathy."

Id say a number of things contribute to the low voter turn out. For example, the DOJ investigation uncovered that law enforcement was motivated to ticket, arrest and incarcerate black people in the community to increase revenue. The more that are incarcerated directly affects voter turn out because people incarcerated, on probation or parole cant vote.

The Link Between Mass Incarceration and Voter Turnout
And then there is this

How Ferguson exposes the racial bias in local elections

Black voter turnout in Ferguson was weak relative to white voter turnout (as a percentage if not in an absolute basis). The idea that incarceration (based on revenue generaion) has anything other than an infinitessimal effect is crazy. You don't incarcerate people for jaywalking or parking violations.

You do when you start stacking non-payment of fines on top of the original violation.

The percentage of people who are thrown in jail for non-payment of fines (which I don't believe would generally result in long-term incarceration) is minimal relative to the overall black population. My comment was that the argument that incarceration of blacks had an impact (other than immaterial) on the election of public officials in Ferguson.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Stop breaking the law. If you have broken the law and are caught do not flee, resist, or argue. Comply and Keep your mouth shut, as is you Constitutional right. If you are wrongfully accused have the brains to not argue that fact with the wrongful accuser/cop. Arguing is not going to get that person to change their mind and it conflates the situation. Wait to make your arguments with a cool head and cooled passions in court, perhaps with the aid and assistance of a criminal defense attorney who also has a civil rights specialist in their firm. Taking matters into your own hands, against an armed officer, on the volatile and unpredictable streets is never the answer, and yet far too many try just that.

I know this is really easy to say. And right in concept.

But.

I'm a white guy in my forties who works for the federal government, and the thought of being physically restrained and helpless while (potentially) currupt and dangerous and (potentially) life-threatening people with the state-backed power to end my life do with me as they will makes my skin crawl. I can't imagine what it feels like for a black person who KNOWS that police have gotten away with shooting/killing innocent black folks feels.

The only comparison I can think about is if I am travaling in another country where I know that the citizens distrust/fear my race/nationality at best (and fear/hate us at worst). Mexico? Liberia? Russia? Cambodia? Columbia? Whatever. Now imagine I've gotten stopped/detained by the police and fear that the police with hurt me very badly if they incapacitate me. Will I have an urge to resist or run, rather than trust that if I submit I won't be hurt? You bet your ###.

And I wonder if that is what it feels like to be a young black man dealing with police in the united states -- the same way I'd feel as a white american dealing with Columbian police, or Somali police, or Russian police.

It's easy to say: "just comply with the police." If you are a race and class that isn't scared shtless (with good reason) of the police.

Oh my God, you are really going to compare American police to Mexico, Liberia, Cambodia and Columbia? Is there a profiling issue in this country where black people get targeted for routine stops more than white people? Absolutely. Are the police indiscriminately killing black people in this country for no reason? No.

I don't think you have any concept of how black people in this country get treated by police. Or how they feel about it. None.

You mean how black people perceive the police treat them. Police do not like criminals.. period. They don't care if you are a black criminal, a white criminal or a Latin criminal.. period. If you don't want to have negative contact with the police, do not commit crimes..period. Unfortunately many times black (criminals) seem to think the police are hard on them because they are black, they fail to make a correlation between the crime they committed and the reason the police are making contact with them.. Again there are exceptions to every rule but the police really don't give a #### what color your skin is, they want you to obey the law...period.

It goes beyond crimes. Statistical evidence has shown that police in certain areas were more likely to pull a black motorist over than a white motorist (all other things being equal - same car, driving the same speed, etc.). There is not doubt about that. That in turn influences their view on law enforcement.

Do you have a link to this study(s). I would be interested in reading it (them).

 

[jonessed]

HAHA, white on white crime is never talked about, Tobias? Yeah, no one knows who Chris Kyle is. I mean, they didn't make a movie out of it or anything.

No one knows who James Eagan Holmes is either (Aurora movie theater shooter), and news of the Boston Marathon bombing never got out. No one knows Jarad and Amanda Miller (Las Vegas couple shooters), or Ronald Lee Haskell, Jr (the guy who killed 6 members of his ex-wife's family), Joel Smith (murder-suicide father who in all killed 5), Bradley William Stone (again, killer of 6 of his ex- wife's family).....

Fact is that there are just as many black on black murders as there are white on white murders. Ok, but there are 5.7x more whites than blacks. Is saying a black is nearly 6x as likely to kill a member of their own race as a white racist to say? Is it racist to say that over twice as many blacks kill whites as the other way around racist? Putting all that together, is it racist to say that an average black person is 12 times more likely to kill a white than the other way around - is that racist to say?

Your takeaway of American Sniper was the fade to black screen about how he was killed by a suicidal fellow vet? That's your paragon of "white on white" crime?

Plenty of protestors have said and done things to discourage looting or violence, so you can dismiss that complaint immediately. Here's a bunch of images and tweets from reporters and others if you don't believe me and don't feel like googling it.

The black on black crime thing is a nonsense and borderline racist argument, for at least two reasons.

One, nobody talks about white on white crime even though most violent crimes against white people are committed by other white people. That actually ties perfectly to what I said in the previous post- people make "the black community" responsible for the actions of others in the community in a way they don't do elsewhere, which is part of the problem and part of the reason for the anger. Here's Larry Wilmore taking that approach to critiquing the "black on black crime" argument.

Two, they do talk about it. Here's a litany of examples from Te-Nehisi Coates. Here's more from him on the subject. White people just assume they don't because ... well, I'm not quite sure why.

Tobias, I didn't mean to imply that there aren't those type of protests and such. I'm talking about the bigger picture, though - what the average American sees. If you have to google it to find it, then it doesn't exist in their heads (and what you found via google is 7 months old). They don't see it on a daily basis. What do they see and hear? People attempting to hold a white officer accountable for an "unarmed black teens death". Same with Zimmerman. Now they see the news of more officers in that department not just being shot at, but actually shot. Where was or is the public outcry for Officer Terence Avery Green of Fulton Co., Georgia (black on black crime), Officer Robert Wilson, III of Philly (black with extensive criminal history on black crime), or of Deputy Marshall Josie Wells (black on black crime) - all within the last 10 days?

Hell, the Meritt Landry and Marshall Coulter situation in New Orleans (white guys shoots unarmed black kid attempting to rob his house) got more attention than all 3 of those combined.

The bolded is a problem ... but a completely different one than the one you were previously discussing, at least as I read it. I read your previous questions to mean why isn't the black community doing more to fight looting or "black on black crime." I answered that. Now you're asking why the media doesn't cover certain things, and why certain media outlets ask the "black on black crime" question and wrongly suggest that there's no outrage from the black community about it. I don't have answer to that question- you'd have to ask Roger Ailes, I guess.

As to the rest of your post, I'm not sure what your point is exactly. I was pointing out the folly of asking why blacks don't care more about black on black crime, or asking why the protestors didn't do more to stop the looting, both of which are false premises. I don't know what the relative media coverage or public outcry in response to police shootings vs racially charged incidents has to do with any of that.

No, you didn't. You brought up a 7 month old article that you needed go find via google about "dozens" of people. That's not "the black community doing more" at all. I think you know that.Where are the protests and marches of hundreds or thousands?

The only reason you're not seeing black people advocating against black on black crime is because Fox News hasn't told you and you're unwilling to look for it on your own. You're seriously complaining that someone had to google something in order to find it? How's the economy back there in '92?

I find it hard to believe you were criticizing people about using grade-school arguments just a few minutes ago.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Plenty of protestors have said and done things to discourage looting or violence, so you can dismiss that complaint immediately. Here's a bunch of images and tweets from reporters and others if you don't believe me and don't feel like googling it.

The black on black crime thing is a nonsense and borderline racist argument, for at least two reasons.

One, nobody talks about white on white crime even though most violent crimes against white people are committed by other white people. That actually ties perfectly to what I said in the previous post- people make "the black community" responsible for the actions of others in the community in a way they don't do elsewhere, which is part of the problem and part of the reason for the anger. Here's Larry Wilmore taking that approach to critiquing the "black on black crime" argument.

Two, they do talk about it. Here's a litany of examples from Te-Nehisi Coates. Here's more from him on the subject. White people just assume they don't because ... well, I'm not quite sure why.

Tobias, I didn't mean to imply that there aren't those type of protests and such. I'm talking about the bigger picture, though - what the average American sees. If you have to google it to find it, then it doesn't exist in their heads (and what you found via google is 7 months old). They don't see it on a daily basis.

What do they see and hear? People attempting to hold a white officer accountable for an "unarmed black teens death". Same with Zimmerman. Now they see the news of more officers in that department not just being shot at, but actually shot. Where was or is the public outcry for Officer Terence Avery Green of Fulton Co., Georgia (black on black crime), Officer Robert Wilson, III of Philly (black with extensive criminal history on black crime), or of Deputy Marshall Josie Wells (black on black crime) - all within the last 10 days?

Hell, the Meritt Landry and Marshall Coulter situation in New Orleans (white guys shoots unarmed black kid attempting to rob his house) got more attention than all 3 of those combined.

The bolded is a problem ... but a completely different one than the one you were previously discussing, at least as I read it. I read your previous questions to mean why isn't the black community doing more to fight looting or "black on black crime." I answered that. Now you're asking why the media doesn't cover certain things, and why certain media outlets ask the "black on black crime" question and wrongly suggest that there's no outrage from the black community about it. I don't have answer to that question- you'd have to ask Roger Ailes, I guess.

As to the rest of your post, I'm not sure what your point is exactly. I was pointing out the folly of asking why blacks don't care more about black on black crime, or asking why the protestors didn't do more to stop the looting, both of which are false premises. I don't know what the relative media coverage or public outcry in response to police shootings vs racially charged incidents has to do with any of that.

No, you didn't. You brought up a 7 month old article that you needed go find via google about "dozens" of people. That's not "the black community doing more" at all. I think you know that.

Where are the protests and marches of hundreds or thousands?

Huh? Did you not click on all the links I included?

Read this one again. It provides exactly what you are asking for. Lots of protests, with hundreds or more involved. It has video of them and everything.

And I have no idea what "needed to go find via google" has to do with anything. I knew they'd happened and been written up, I just googled it to find those reports. Do you have links committed to memory or something? Nor do I have any idea what the timing has to do with it, whether they're 7 months old or 5 years old or whatever. What exactly are you trying to say? That black people used to care about black on black crime but they abruptly stopped 7 months ago? That unless they're protesting it every day it doesn't count in your eyes?

Honestly you've lost me here. What point are you trying to make with this "black on black crime" argument?

 

[kentric]

HAHA, white on white crime is never talked about, Tobias? Yeah, no one knows who Chris Kyle is. I mean, they didn't make a movie out of it or anything.

No one knows who James Eagan Holmes is either (Aurora movie theater shooter), and news of the Boston Marathon bombing never got out. No one knows Jarad and Amanda Miller (Las Vegas couple shooters), or Ronald Lee Haskell, Jr (the guy who killed 6 members of his ex-wife's family), Joel Smith (murder-suicide father who in all killed 5), Bradley William Stone (again, killer of 6 of his ex- wife's family).....

Fact is that there are just as many black on black murders as there are white on white murders. Ok, but there are 5.7x more whites than blacks. Is saying a black is nearly 6x as likely to kill a member of their own race as a white racist to say? Is it racist to say that over twice as many blacks kill whites as the other way around racist? Putting all that together, is it racist to say that an average black person is 12 times more likely to kill a white than the other way around - is that racist to say?

Your takeaway of American Sniper was the fade to black screen about how he was killed by a suicidal fellow vet? That's your paragon of "white on white" crime?

Plenty of protestors have said and done things to discourage looting or violence, so you can dismiss that complaint immediately. Here's a bunch of images and tweets from reporters and others if you don't believe me and don't feel like googling it.

The black on black crime thing is a nonsense and borderline racist argument, for at least two reasons.

One, nobody talks about white on white crime even though most violent crimes against white people are committed by other white people. That actually ties perfectly to what I said in the previous post- people make "the black community" responsible for the actions of others in the community in a way they don't do elsewhere, which is part of the problem and part of the reason for the anger. Here's Larry Wilmore taking that approach to critiquing the "black on black crime" argument.

Two, they do talk about it. Here's a litany of examples from Te-Nehisi Coates. Here's more from him on the subject. White people just assume they don't because ... well, I'm not quite sure why.

Tobias, I didn't mean to imply that there aren't those type of protests and such. I'm talking about the bigger picture, though - what the average American sees. If you have to google it to find it, then it doesn't exist in their heads (and what you found via google is 7 months old). They don't see it on a daily basis.

What do they see and hear? People attempting to hold a white officer accountable for an "unarmed black teens death". Same with Zimmerman. Now they see the news of more officers in that department not just being shot at, but actually shot. Where was or is the public outcry for Officer Terence Avery Green of Fulton Co., Georgia (black on black crime), Officer Robert Wilson, III of Philly (black with extensive criminal history on black crime), or of Deputy Marshall Josie Wells (black on black crime) - all within the last 10 days?

Hell, the Meritt Landry and Marshall Coulter situation in New Orleans (white guys shoots unarmed black kid attempting to rob his house) got more attention than all 3 of those combined.

The bolded is a problem ... but a completely different one than the one you were previously discussing, at least as I read it. I read your previous questions to mean why isn't the black community doing more to fight looting or "black on black crime." I answered that. Now you're asking why the media doesn't cover certain things, and why certain media outlets ask the "black on black crime" question and wrongly suggest that there's no outrage from the black community about it. I don't have answer to that question- you'd have to ask Roger Ailes, I guess.

As to the rest of your post, I'm not sure what your point is exactly. I was pointing out the folly of asking why blacks don't care more about black on black crime, or asking why the protestors didn't do more to stop the looting, both of which are false premises. I don't know what the relative media coverage or public outcry in response to police shootings vs racially charged incidents has to do with any of that.

No, you didn't. You brought up a 7 month old article that you needed go find via google about "dozens" of people. That's not "the black community doing more" at all. I think you know that.

Where are the protests and marches of hundreds or thousands?

The only reason you're not seeing black people advocating against black on black crime is because Fox News hasn't told you and you're unwilling to look for it on your own. You're seriously complaining that someone had to google something in order to find it? How's the economy back there in '92?

I'm pretty sure the media (with the possible exception of Fox) would broadcast an event where hundreds of black people marched to shed light on a black cop shooting an unarmed black thief. Though the million man march was fairly heavily covered and I believe one of the tenats of the march was black on black violence.

 

[kentric]

Stop breaking the law. If you have broken the law and are caught do not flee, resist, or argue. Comply and Keep your mouth shut, as is you Constitutional right. If you are wrongfully accused have the brains to not argue that fact with the wrongful accuser/cop. Arguing is not going to get that person to change their mind and it conflates the situation. Wait to make your arguments with a cool head and cooled passions in court, perhaps with the aid and assistance of a criminal defense attorney who also has a civil rights specialist in their firm. Taking matters into your own hands, against an armed officer, on the volatile and unpredictable streets is never the answer, and yet far too many try just that.

I know this is really easy to say. And right in concept.

But.

I'm a white guy in my forties who works for the federal government, and the thought of being physically restrained and helpless while (potentially) currupt and dangerous and (potentially) life-threatening people with the state-backed power to end my life do with me as they will makes my skin crawl. I can't imagine what it feels like for a black person who KNOWS that police have gotten away with shooting/killing innocent black folks feels.

The only comparison I can think about is if I am travaling in another country where I know that the citizens distrust/fear my race/nationality at best (and fear/hate us at worst). Mexico? Liberia? Russia? Cambodia? Columbia? Whatever. Now imagine I've gotten stopped/detained by the police and fear that the police with hurt me very badly if they incapacitate me. Will I have an urge to resist or run, rather than trust that if I submit I won't be hurt? You bet your ###.

And I wonder if that is what it feels like to be a young black man dealing with police in the united states -- the same way I'd feel as a white american dealing with Columbian police, or Somali police, or Russian police.

It's easy to say: "just comply with the police." If you are a race and class that isn't scared shtless (with good reason) of the police.

Oh my God, you are really going to compare American police to Mexico, Liberia, Cambodia and Columbia? Is there a profiling issue in this country where black people get targeted for routine stops more than white people? Absolutely. Are the police indiscriminately killing black people in this country for no reason? No.

I don't think you have any concept of how black people in this country get treated by police. Or how they feel about it. None.

You mean how black people perceive the police treat them. Police do not like criminals.. period. They don't care if you are a black criminal, a white criminal or a Latin criminal.. period. If you don't want to have negative contact with the police, do not commit crimes..period. Unfortunately many times black (criminals) seem to think the police are hard on them because they are black, they fail to make a correlation between the crime they committed and the reason the police are making contact with them.. Again there are exceptions to every rule but the police really don't give a #### what color your skin is, they want you to obey the law...period.

It goes beyond crimes. Statistical evidence has shown that police in certain areas were more likely to pull a black motorist over than a white motorist (all other things being equal - same car, driving the same speed, etc.). There is not doubt about that. That in turn influences their view on law enforcement.

Do you have a link to this study(s). I would be interested in reading it (them).

Not going to do legwork as I am way too easy. The last big study (exclusive of Ferguson) I am aware of which found bias was evident in the police force was for NJ State Troopers. If you keep up with the news I'm sure you've heard of that one..

 

[General Tso]

Stop breaking the law. If you have broken the law and are caught do not flee, resist, or argue. Comply and Keep your mouth shut, as is you Constitutional right. If you are wrongfully accused have the brains to not argue that fact with the wrongful accuser/cop. Arguing is not going to get that person to change their mind and it conflates the situation. Wait to make your arguments with a cool head and cooled passions in court, perhaps with the aid and assistance of a criminal defense attorney who also has a civil rights specialist in their firm. Taking matters into your own hands, against an armed officer, on the volatile and unpredictable streets is never the answer, and yet far too many try just that.

I know this is really easy to say. And right in concept.

But.

I'm a white guy in my forties who works for the federal government, and the thought of being physically restrained and helpless while (potentially) currupt and dangerous and (potentially) life-threatening people with the state-backed power to end my life do with me as they will makes my skin crawl. I can't imagine what it feels like for a black person who KNOWS that police have gotten away with shooting/killing innocent black folks feels.

The only comparison I can think about is if I am travaling in another country where I know that the citizens distrust/fear my race/nationality at best (and fear/hate us at worst). Mexico? Liberia? Russia? Cambodia? Columbia? Whatever. Now imagine I've gotten stopped/detained by the police and fear that the police with hurt me very badly if they incapacitate me. Will I have an urge to resist or run, rather than trust that if I submit I won't be hurt? You bet your ###.

And I wonder if that is what it feels like to be a young black man dealing with police in the united states -- the same way I'd feel as a white american dealing with Columbian police, or Somali police, or Russian police.

It's easy to say: "just comply with the police." If you are a race and class that isn't scared shtless (with good reason) of the police.

Oh my God, you are really going to compare American police to Mexico, Liberia, Cambodia and Columbia? Is there a profiling issue in this country where black people get targeted for routine stops more than white people? Absolutely. Are the police indiscriminately killing black people in this country for no reason? No.

I don't think you have any concept of how black people in this country get treated by police. Or how they feel about it. None.

Oh please. Do you really think you are helping the black community by propagating this relentless sense of persecution? It's 2015. We have a black President. There is more equal opportunity in this country than at any time in its history. You could actually make a very good argument that there is BETTER opportunity for minorities at certain companies than similarly qualified white workers. The best way to keep someone down is to keep pounding into their heads that they are a victim.

 

[Sabertooth]

Exactly. Always the victim. JFC, move to someplace that isn't a ####hole and get an education.

 

[Hang 10]

Stop breaking the law. If you have broken the law and are caught do not flee, resist, or argue. Comply and Keep your mouth shut, as is you Constitutional right. If you are wrongfully accused have the brains to not argue that fact with the wrongful accuser/cop. Arguing is not going to get that person to change their mind and it conflates the situation. Wait to make your arguments with a cool head and cooled passions in court, perhaps with the aid and assistance of a criminal defense attorney who also has a civil rights specialist in their firm. Taking matters into your own hands, against an armed officer, on the volatile and unpredictable streets is never the answer, and yet far too many try just that.

I know this is really easy to say. And right in concept.

But.

I'm a white guy in my forties who works for the federal government, and the thought of being physically restrained and helpless while (potentially) currupt and dangerous and (potentially) life-threatening people with the state-backed power to end my life do with me as they will makes my skin crawl. I can't imagine what it feels like for a black person who KNOWS that police have gotten away with shooting/killing innocent black folks feels.

The only comparison I can think about is if I am travaling in another country where I know that the citizens distrust/fear my race/nationality at best (and fear/hate us at worst). Mexico? Liberia? Russia? Cambodia? Columbia? Whatever. Now imagine I've gotten stopped/detained by the police and fear that the police with hurt me very badly if they incapacitate me. Will I have an urge to resist or run, rather than trust that if I submit I won't be hurt? You bet your ###.

And I wonder if that is what it feels like to be a young black man dealing with police in the united states -- the same way I'd feel as a white american dealing with Columbian police, or Somali police, or Russian police.

It's easy to say: "just comply with the police." If you are a race and class that isn't scared shtless (with good reason) of the police.

Oh my God, you are really going to compare American police to Mexico, Liberia, Cambodia and Columbia? Is there a profiling issue in this country where black people get targeted for routine stops more than white people? Absolutely. Are the police indiscriminately killing black people in this country for no reason? No.

I don't think you have any concept of how black people in this country get treated by police. Or how they feel about it. None.

Oh please. Do you really think you are helping the black community by propagating this relentless sense of persecution? It's 2015. We have a black President. There is more equal opportunity in this country than at any time in its history. You could actually make a very good argument that there is BETTER opportunity for minorities at certain companies than similarly qualified white workers. The best way to keep someone down is to keep pounding into their heads that they are a victim.

Makes me think of this quote: Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.

If this community never believes it will get any better than this, it won't. It's not helping them to reinforce this idea.

 

[mcintyre1]

2012 statistics (in the USA):

Number of arrests = 12,197,000

Police uses of deadly force = 410.

Look - we are the most armed-to-the-teeth country in the world. And nowadays people don't listen to instructions very well either. I think they do an amazing job all things considered. Could it be better? Yes. Must it be better? Yes. Is it on par with the corruption we see in Mexico? NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE.

410 is the self-reported number of "justifiable homicides", which is a subset of police uses of deadly force in which deadly force was used in a manner that complied with department policy. So, they're killing 410 people nationwide that they're willing to self-report (because those killings complied with the policy the department themselves created). There's two systems that collect that data, but I'm pretty sure that number is from the Uniform Crime Reporting Program for the FBI, which is completely voluntary on a per department basis. The other system attempts to compile information based on filed death certificates, but those aren't consistent between states and many don't report how they died or whether law enforcement was involved.

A study funded by the National Institute of Health covering both reporting methods over the years 1976-1998 determined that both under-reported for different reasons and that "reliable estimates of the number of justifiable homicides by police officers in the United States do not exist." Another study of killings by police in Central Florida from 1999-2002 determined that only one out of four deaths reported on local news media were reported to national databases.

So, really, we don't know that we're better than Mexico. We almost certainly are, but we can't support that assertion with data.

 

[mcintyre1]

HAHA, white on white crime is never talked about, Tobias? Yeah, no one knows who Chris Kyle is. I mean, they didn't make a movie out of it or anything.

No one knows who James Eagan Holmes is either (Aurora movie theater shooter), and news of the Boston Marathon bombing never got out. No one knows Jarad and Amanda Miller (Las Vegas couple shooters), or Ronald Lee Haskell, Jr (the guy who killed 6 members of his ex-wife's family), Joel Smith (murder-suicide father who in all killed 5), Bradley William Stone (again, killer of 6 of his ex- wife's family).....

Fact is that there are just as many black on black murders as there are white on white murders. Ok, but there are 5.7x more whites than blacks. Is saying a black is nearly 6x as likely to kill a member of their own race as a white racist to say? Is it racist to say that over twice as many blacks kill whites as the other way around racist? Putting all that together, is it racist to say that an average black person is 12 times more likely to kill a white than the other way around - is that racist to say?

Your takeaway of American Sniper was the fade to black screen about how he was killed by a suicidal fellow vet? That's your paragon of "white on white" crime?

Plenty of protestors have said and done things to discourage looting or violence, so you can dismiss that complaint immediately. Here's a bunch of images and tweets from reporters and others if you don't believe me and don't feel like googling it.

The black on black crime thing is a nonsense and borderline racist argument, for at least two reasons.

One, nobody talks about white on white crime even though most violent crimes against white people are committed by other white people. That actually ties perfectly to what I said in the previous post- people make "the black community" responsible for the actions of others in the community in a way they don't do elsewhere, which is part of the problem and part of the reason for the anger. Here's Larry Wilmore taking that approach to critiquing the "black on black crime" argument.

Two, they do talk about it. Here's a litany of examples from Te-Nehisi Coates. Here's more from him on the subject. White people just assume they don't because ... well, I'm not quite sure why.

Tobias, I didn't mean to imply that there aren't those type of protests and such. I'm talking about the bigger picture, though - what the average American sees. If you have to google it to find it, then it doesn't exist in their heads (and what you found via google is 7 months old). They don't see it on a daily basis. What do they see and hear? People attempting to hold a white officer accountable for an "unarmed black teens death". Same with Zimmerman. Now they see the news of more officers in that department not just being shot at, but actually shot. Where was or is the public outcry for Officer Terence Avery Green of Fulton Co., Georgia (black on black crime), Officer Robert Wilson, III of Philly (black with extensive criminal history on black crime), or of Deputy Marshall Josie Wells (black on black crime) - all within the last 10 days?

Hell, the Meritt Landry and Marshall Coulter situation in New Orleans (white guys shoots unarmed black kid attempting to rob his house) got more attention than all 3 of those combined.

The bolded is a problem ... but a completely different one than the one you were previously discussing, at least as I read it. I read your previous questions to mean why isn't the black community doing more to fight looting or "black on black crime." I answered that. Now you're asking why the media doesn't cover certain things, and why certain media outlets ask the "black on black crime" question and wrongly suggest that there's no outrage from the black community about it. I don't have answer to that question- you'd have to ask Roger Ailes, I guess.

As to the rest of your post, I'm not sure what your point is exactly. I was pointing out the folly of asking why blacks don't care more about black on black crime, or asking why the protestors didn't do more to stop the looting, both of which are false premises. I don't know what the relative media coverage or public outcry in response to police shootings vs racially charged incidents has to do with any of that.

No, you didn't. You brought up a 7 month old article that you needed go find via google about "dozens" of people. That's not "the black community doing more" at all. I think you know that.Where are the protests and marches of hundreds or thousands?

The only reason you're not seeing black people advocating against black on black crime is because Fox News hasn't told you and you're unwilling to look for it on your own. You're seriously complaining that someone had to google something in order to find it? How's the economy back there in '92?

I find it hard to believe you were criticizing people about using grade-school arguments just a few minutes ago.

I try to use words that my audience can understand and relate to.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Stop breaking the law. If you have broken the law and are caught do not flee, resist, or argue. Comply and Keep your mouth shut, as is you Constitutional right. If you are wrongfully accused have the brains to not argue that fact with the wrongful accuser/cop. Arguing is not going to get that person to change their mind and it conflates the situation. Wait to make your arguments with a cool head and cooled passions in court, perhaps with the aid and assistance of a criminal defense attorney who also has a civil rights specialist in their firm. Taking matters into your own hands, against an armed officer, on the volatile and unpredictable streets is never the answer, and yet far too many try just that.

I know this is really easy to say. And right in concept.

But.

I'm a white guy in my forties who works for the federal government, and the thought of being physically restrained and helpless while (potentially) currupt and dangerous and (potentially) life-threatening people with the state-backed power to end my life do with me as they will makes my skin crawl. I can't imagine what it feels like for a black person who KNOWS that police have gotten away with shooting/killing innocent black folks feels.

The only comparison I can think about is if I am travaling in another country where I know that the citizens distrust/fear my race/nationality at best (and fear/hate us at worst). Mexico? Liberia? Russia? Cambodia? Columbia? Whatever. Now imagine I've gotten stopped/detained by the police and fear that the police with hurt me very badly if they incapacitate me. Will I have an urge to resist or run, rather than trust that if I submit I won't be hurt? You bet your ###.

And I wonder if that is what it feels like to be a young black man dealing with police in the united states -- the same way I'd feel as a white american dealing with Columbian police, or Somali police, or Russian police.

It's easy to say: "just comply with the police." If you are a race and class that isn't scared shtless (with good reason) of the police.

Oh my God, you are really going to compare American police to Mexico, Liberia, Cambodia and Columbia? Is there a profiling issue in this country where black people get targeted for routine stops more than white people? Absolutely. Are the police indiscriminately killing black people in this country for no reason? No.

I don't think you have any concept of how black people in this country get treated by police. Or how they feel about it. None.

You mean how black people perceive the police treat them. Police do not like criminals.. period. They don't care if you are a black criminal, a white criminal or a Latin criminal.. period. If you don't want to have negative contact with the police, do not commit crimes..period. Unfortunately many times black (criminals) seem to think the police are hard on them because they are black, they fail to make a correlation between the crime they committed and the reason the police are making contact with them.. Again there are exceptions to every rule but the police really don't give a #### what color your skin is, they want you to obey the law...period.

It goes beyond crimes. Statistical evidence has shown that police in certain areas were more likely to pull a black motorist over than a white motorist (all other things being equal - same car, driving the same speed, etc.). There is not doubt about that. That in turn influences their view on law enforcement.

Do you have a link to this study(s). I would be interested in reading it (them).

Not going to do legwork as I am way too easy. The last big study (exclusive of Ferguson) I am aware of which found bias was evident in the police force was for NJ State Troopers. If you keep up with the news I'm sure you've heard of that one..

I guess I will have to do my own google fu. No problem.

I do not believe you to be too easy.

 

[mcintyre1]

How many times has the phrase "we have a black President" been used in this thread? As if we can use that to support the demise of racism while ignoring that a significant portion of the population doesn't even believe that black President legally holds the office.

 

[timschochet]

I haven't posted in this thread in a long while, but after reading the last several pages, I have to ask, don't you guys get tired of regurgitating the same old stale arguments over and over?

Almost none of the liberals in this thread ever want to blame blacks for anything bad that happens to them- it is always the fault of police, of racism, of the establishment keeping the black man down.

Almost none of the conservatives in this thread are ever willing to acknowledge that racism plays a significant role in how blacks are treated. The police never do anything wrong; they treat everyone equally, and economic opportunity is the exact same for all colors.

And even those few of you on both sides who are willing to acknowledge exceptions are quick to dismiss them as exceptions and go back to focusing on your preachy arguments.

It's bull####. All of it. We live in a complicated, nuanced world. Blacks struggle in America because of a combination of factors: personal responsibility, racism, past racism, lack of quality education. Blacks are harshly treated by police in this country partly due to racism and partly because blacks commit more crimes by comparison. None of this is either-or.

 

[matttyl]

HAHA, white on white crime is never talked about, Tobias? Yeah, no one knows who Chris Kyle is. I mean, they didn't make a movie out of it or anything.

No one knows who James Eagan Holmes is either (Aurora movie theater shooter), and news of the Boston Marathon bombing never got out. No one knows Jarad and Amanda Miller (Las Vegas couple shooters), or Ronald Lee Haskell, Jr (the guy who killed 6 members of his ex-wife's family), Joel Smith (murder-suicide father who in all killed 5), Bradley William Stone (again, killer of 6 of his ex- wife's family).....

Fact is that there are just as many black on black murders as there are white on white murders. Ok, but there are 5.7x more whites than blacks. Is saying a black is nearly 6x as likely to kill a member of their own race as a white racist to say? Is it racist to say that over twice as many blacks kill whites as the other way around racist? Putting all that together, is it racist to say that an average black person is 12 times more likely to kill a white than the other way around - is that racist to say?

Your takeaway of American Sniper was the fade to black screen about how he was killed by a suicidal fellow vet? That's your paragon of "white on white" crime?

Haven't seen the movie - don't spoil the ending for me! Just saying that white on white crime is of course talked about, which Tobias said it wasn't. It's just not categorized as "white on white" when discussed.

 

[General Tso]

Stop breaking the law. If you have broken the law and are caught do not flee, resist, or argue. Comply and Keep your mouth shut, as is you Constitutional right. If you are wrongfully accused have the brains to not argue that fact with the wrongful accuser/cop. Arguing is not going to get that person to change their mind and it conflates the situation. Wait to make your arguments with a cool head and cooled passions in court, perhaps with the aid and assistance of a criminal defense attorney who also has a civil rights specialist in their firm. Taking matters into your own hands, against an armed officer, on the volatile and unpredictable streets is never the answer, and yet far too many try just that.

I know this is really easy to say. And right in concept.

But.

I'm a white guy in my forties who works for the federal government, and the thought of being physically restrained and helpless while (potentially) currupt and dangerous and (potentially) life-threatening people with the state-backed power to end my life do with me as they will makes my skin crawl. I can't imagine what it feels like for a black person who KNOWS that police have gotten away with shooting/killing innocent black folks feels.

The only comparison I can think about is if I am travaling in another country where I know that the citizens distrust/fear my race/nationality at best (and fear/hate us at worst). Mexico? Liberia? Russia? Cambodia? Columbia? Whatever. Now imagine I've gotten stopped/detained by the police and fear that the police with hurt me very badly if they incapacitate me. Will I have an urge to resist or run, rather than trust that if I submit I won't be hurt? You bet your ###.

And I wonder if that is what it feels like to be a young black man dealing with police in the united states -- the same way I'd feel as a white american dealing with Columbian police, or Somali police, or Russian police.

It's easy to say: "just comply with the police." If you are a race and class that isn't scared shtless (with good reason) of the police.

Oh my God, you are really going to compare American police to Mexico, Liberia, Cambodia and Columbia? Is there a profiling issue in this country where black people get targeted for routine stops more than white people? Absolutely. Are the police indiscriminately killing black people in this country for no reason? No.

I don't think you have any concept of how black people in this country get treated by police. Or how they feel about it. None.

Oh please. Do you really think you are helping the black community by propagating this relentless sense of persecution? It's 2015. We have a black President. There is more equal opportunity in this country than at any time in its history. You could actually make a very good argument that there is BETTER opportunity for minorities at certain companies than similarly qualified white workers. The best way to keep someone down is to keep pounding into their heads that they are a victim.

Makes me think of this quote: Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.

If this community never believes it will get any better than this, it won't. It's not helping them to reinforce this idea.

That's one of my favorite quotes. I do a lot of volunteer work in the Community (mostly with recovering drug addicts, and most of them minorities) and I use that quote all the time. I know it sounds harsh, but there's another phrase we throw around a lot - "Pity is a negative emotion". If you want to help someone, motivate them to overcome adversity and rise above it. And stop filling people's heads with all this crap about everyone being out to get them. ALL PEOPLE - black, white Latino, Police even - are generally good people who will help you if you treat them right. Yes, there are a few bad apples ( a very low percentage of the population) but why on earth should your focus be on them rather than the good people? You are more likely to get what you need from the good people than by changing the behaviors of the bad ones.

 

[TobiasFunke]

HAHA, white on white crime is never talked about, Tobias? Yeah, no one knows who Chris Kyle is. I mean, they didn't make a movie out of it or anything.

No one knows who James Eagan Holmes is either (Aurora movie theater shooter), and news of the Boston Marathon bombing never got out. No one knows Jarad and Amanda Miller (Las Vegas couple shooters), or Ronald Lee Haskell, Jr (the guy who killed 6 members of his ex-wife's family), Joel Smith (murder-suicide father who in all killed 5), Bradley William Stone (again, killer of 6 of his ex- wife's family).....

Fact is that there are just as many black on black murders as there are white on white murders. Ok, but there are 5.7x more whites than blacks. Is saying a black is nearly 6x as likely to kill a member of their own race as a white racist to say? Is it racist to say that over twice as many blacks kill whites as the other way around racist? Putting all that together, is it racist to say that an average black person is 12 times more likely to kill a white than the other way around - is that racist to say?

Your takeaway of American Sniper was the fade to black screen about how he was killed by a suicidal fellow vet? That's your paragon of "white on white" crime?

Haven't seen the movie - don't spoil the ending for me! Just saying that white on white crime is of course talked about, which Tobias said it wasn't. It's just not categorized as "white on white" when discussed.

Why not?

 

[TobiasFunke]

I haven't posted in this thread in a long while, but after reading the last several pages, I have to ask, don't you guys get tired of regurgitating the same old stale arguments over and over?

Almost none of the liberals in this thread ever want to blame blacks for anything bad that happens to them- it is always the fault of police, of racism, of the establishment keeping the black man down.

Almost none of the conservatives in this thread are ever willing to acknowledge that racism plays a significant role in how blacks are treated. The police never do anything wrong; they treat everyone equally, and economic opportunity is the exact same for all colors.

And even those few of you on both sides who are willing to acknowledge exceptions are quick to dismiss them as exceptions and go back to focusing on your preachy arguments.

It's bull####. All of it. We live in a complicated, nuanced world. Blacks struggle in America because of a combination of factors: personal responsibility, racism, past racism, lack of quality education. Blacks are harshly treated by police in this country partly due to racism and partly because blacks commit more crimes by comparison. None of this is either-or.

I respond to the people I like and respect because I like exchanging ideas with them. I know I learn something from it, and I hope they do too. I'm not sure why that's a problem for you.

 

[timschochet]

I haven't posted in this thread in a long while, but after reading the last several pages, I have to ask, don't you guys get tired of regurgitating the same old stale arguments over and over?

Almost none of the liberals in this thread ever want to blame blacks for anything bad that happens to them- it is always the fault of police, of racism, of the establishment keeping the black man down.

Almost none of the conservatives in this thread are ever willing to acknowledge that racism plays a significant role in how blacks are treated. The police never do anything wrong; they treat everyone equally, and economic opportunity is the exact same for all colors.

And even those few of you on both sides who are willing to acknowledge exceptions are quick to dismiss them as exceptions and go back to focusing on your preachy arguments.

It's bull####. All of it. We live in a complicated, nuanced world. Blacks struggle in America because of a combination of factors: personal responsibility, racism, past racism, lack of quality education. Blacks are harshly treated by police in this country partly due to racism and partly because blacks commit more crimes by comparison. None of this is either-or.

I respond to the people I like and respect because I like exchanging ideas with them. I know I learn something from it, and I hope they do too. I'm not sure why that's a problem for you.

i have no problem with you Tobias or anyone here. Just expressing some frustration with the same old arguments repeated endlessly.

 

[mcintyre1]

I haven't posted in this thread in a long while, but after reading the last several pages, I have to ask, don't you guys get tired of regurgitating the same old stale arguments over and over?

Almost none of the liberals in this thread ever want to blame blacks for anything bad that happens to them- it is always the fault of police, of racism, of the establishment keeping the black man down.

Almost none of the conservatives in this thread are ever willing to acknowledge that racism plays a significant role in how blacks are treated. The police never do anything wrong; they treat everyone equally, and economic opportunity is the exact same for all colors.

And even those few of you on both sides who are willing to acknowledge exceptions are quick to dismiss them as exceptions and go back to focusing on your preachy arguments.

It's bull####. All of it. We live in a complicated, nuanced world. Blacks struggle in America because of a combination of factors: personal responsibility, racism, past racism, lack of quality education. Blacks are harshly treated by police in this country partly due to racism and partly because blacks commit more crimes by comparison. None of this is either-or.

I respond to the people I like and respect because I like exchanging ideas with them. I know I learn something from it, and I hope they do too. I'm not sure why that's a problem for you.

i have no problem with you Tobias or anyone here. Just expressing some frustration with the same old arguments repeated endlessly.

Welcome to human civilization.

 

[General Tso]

I haven't posted in this thread in a long while, but after reading the last several pages, I have to ask, don't you guys get tired of regurgitating the same old stale arguments over and over?

Almost none of the liberals in this thread ever want to blame blacks for anything bad that happens to them- it is always the fault of police, of racism, of the establishment keeping the black man down.

Almost none of the conservatives in this thread are ever willing to acknowledge that racism plays a significant role in how blacks are treated. The police never do anything wrong; they treat everyone equally, and economic opportunity is the exact same for all colors.

And even those few of you on both sides who are willing to acknowledge exceptions are quick to dismiss them as exceptions and go back to focusing on your preachy arguments.

It's bull####. All of it. We live in a complicated, nuanced world. Blacks struggle in America because of a combination of factors: personal responsibility, racism, past racism, lack of quality education. Blacks are harshly treated by police in this country partly due to racism and partly because blacks commit more crimes by comparison. None of this is either-or.

I agree with a lot of this and share in the frustration. We have become way too polarized in this country. But at least people are talking and (for the most part) listening to others' opinions and experiences. In the old days (pre-internet) people weren't as exposed to contrarian viewpoints.

 

[matttyl]

No, you didn't. You brought up a 7 month old article that you needed go find via google about "dozens" of people. That's not "the black community doing more" at all. I think you know that.

Where are the protests and marches of hundreds or thousands?

Huh? Did you not click on all the links I included?

Read this one again. It provides exactly what you are asking for. Lots of protests, with hundreds or more involved. It has video of them and everything.

And I have no idea what "needed to go find via google" has to do with anything. I knew they'd happened and been written up, I just googled it to find those reports. Do you have links committed to memory or something? Nor do I have any idea what the timing has to do with it, whether they're 7 months old or 5 years old or whatever. What exactly are you trying to say? That black people used to care about black on black crime but they abruptly stopped 7 months ago? That unless they're protesting it every day it doesn't count in your eyes?

Honestly you've lost me here. What point are you trying to make with this "black on black crime" argument?

So an article from "The Atlantic" that's 3 years old with a video of Chicago from 5 years ago and Newark from 6 years ago?

My point, rather than argument cause it's not really debatable, is when there is a white on black crime (Fergueson, Zimmerman, whatever) it makes national news - there are protests and marches. These are for individual situations with singular deaths. It makes nationals and international news and gets thousands of people gathered for a singular cause. You don't see that with black on black crimes, which are far more prevalent to the tune of hundreds (maybe a thousand) times more often to nearly the same degree - it at all on a national news scale. Why is that?

How come I can turn on my TV (and not just Fox News, which I don't watch by the way), or via a social media page and see nothing but these singular situations and their huge reactions - but never see anything of the other? Why do you have to go to google and pull up articles from years ago with videos of even further back to show it? Again, I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all - what I'm saying is that when it does happen it's on a far smaller scale, and never receives any "real" attention (which I understand are two different issues, but both exist).

 

[matttyl]

HAHA, white on white crime is never talked about, Tobias? Yeah, no one knows who Chris Kyle is. I mean, they didn't make a movie out of it or anything.

No one knows who James Eagan Holmes is either (Aurora movie theater shooter), and news of the Boston Marathon bombing never got out. No one knows Jarad and Amanda Miller (Las Vegas couple shooters), or Ronald Lee Haskell, Jr (the guy who killed 6 members of his ex-wife's family), Joel Smith (murder-suicide father who in all killed 5), Bradley William Stone (again, killer of 6 of his ex- wife's family).....

Fact is that there are just as many black on black murders as there are white on white murders. Ok, but there are 5.7x more whites than blacks. Is saying a black is nearly 6x as likely to kill a member of their own race as a white racist to say? Is it racist to say that over twice as many blacks kill whites as the other way around racist? Putting all that together, is it racist to say that an average black person is 12 times more likely to kill a white than the other way around - is that racist to say?

Your takeaway of American Sniper was the fade to black screen about how he was killed by a suicidal fellow vet? That's your paragon of "white on white" crime?

Haven't seen the movie - don't spoil the ending for me! Just saying that white on white crime is of course talked about, which Tobias said it wasn't. It's just not categorized as "white on white" when discussed.

Why not?

It's just called crime I guess. When you see the victim and the shooter you can see for yourself. When you see this situation in Ferguson you can see it to, and people are quick to put it into that race situation box to drum up reactions.