Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (7 Viewers)

[SaintsInDome2006]

Meatwad and TPW wondering "why don't these guys ever speak out against black on black crime?"

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20131011/austin/al-sharpton-rent-west-side-apartment-highlight-gun-violence

Sharpton will rent an apartment on the West Side and commute from New York once a week for two to three months, according to Rachel Noerdlinger, a spokeswoman for the Baptist minister.

"He's staying on the West Side so he can talk to people and show that people should not be afraid to stand together to fight gun violence," Noerdlinger said. "Rev. Sharpton plans to be in Chicago Oct. 20, and he will hold a news conference on that day to talk more about his presence there."

First of all - I don't believe it.

Secondly Mr. Crown Heights getting involved in this thing in MO is absolutely awful.

 

[jonessed]

At any rate - can someone give a good clear step by step factual summary of what the two sides claim actually happened? If there's a prior post on this, sorry, please link to it.

A lot of debating going on without a clear understanding or statement of underlying facts.

Thanks.

The police offer claims there was a scuffle in the car where Brown tried to grab his gun.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

At any rate - can someone give a good clear step by step factual summary of what the two sides claim actually happened? If there's a prior post on this, sorry, please link to it.

A lot of debating going on without a clear understanding or statement of underlying facts.

Thanks.

The police offer claims there was a scuffle in the car where Brown tried to grab his gun.

And that's pretty much it? I think I heard the witness guy saying he saw something about someone reaching an arm into the car, any recap on that claim?

I'm just having a hard time understanding the alleged motivation behind even a "Bad Lieutenant" character type cop to just point blank shoot a guy in the back of his police car.

What's the theory of the victim's supporters here, the cop was just plain, mean, evil and decided to take the kid out?

 

[EYLive]

What are these blowhard reverends supposed to do? The criminals don't respect the yapping that come from these "leaders".

 

[jonessed]

At any rate - can someone give a good clear step by step factual summary of what the two sides claim actually happened? If there's a prior post on this, sorry, please link to it.

A lot of debating going on without a clear understanding or statement of underlying facts.

Thanks.

The police offer claims there was a scuffle in the car where Brown tried to grab his gun.

And that's pretty much it? I think I heard the witness guy saying he saw something about someone reaching an arm into the car, any recap on that claim?

I'm just having a hard time understanding the alleged motivation behind even a "Bad Lieutenant" character type cop to just point blank shoot a guy in the back of his police car.

What's the theory of the victim's supporters here, the cop was just plain, mean, evil and decided to take the kid out?

The claim is that after the scuffle the kid tried to give himself up. Hopefully forensics can help answer that.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

What's the theory of the victim's supporters here, the cop was just plain, mean, evil and decided to take the kid out?

Basically, yeah. There are a very large number of police officers in the US. Some of them have power issues, and basic statistics guarantees that a certain percentage of them will be mentally unhinged. It's not that far-fetched to entertain the possibility that this cop was one of those guys.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

What's the theory of the victim's supporters here, the cop was just plain, mean, evil and decided to take the kid out?

Basically, yeah. There are a very large number of police officers in the US. Some of them have power issues, and basic statistics guarantees that a certain percentage of them will be mentally unhinged. It's not that far-fetched to entertain the possibility that this cop was one of those guys.

After telling the officer that they were almost at their destination, Johnson’s house, the two continued walking. But as they did, Johnson says the officer slammed his brakes and threw his truck in reverse, nearly hitting them.

Now, in line with the officer’s driver’s side door, they could see the officer’s face. They heard him say something to the effect of, “what’d you say?” At the same time, Johnson says the officer attempted to thrust his door open but the door slammed into Brown and bounced closed. Johnson says the officer, with his left hand, grabbed Brown by the neck.

“I could see the muscles in his forearm,” Johnson said. “Mike was trying to get away from being choked.”

“They’re not wrestling so much as his arm went from his throat to now clenched on his shirt,” Johnson explained of the scene between Brown and the officer. “It’s like tug of war. He’s trying to pull him in. He’s pulling away, that’s when I heard, ‘I’m gonna shoot you.’”

At that moment, Johnson says he fixed his gaze on the officer to see if he was pulling a stun gun or a real gun. That’s when he saw the muzzle of the officer’s gun.

“I seen the barrel of the gun pointed at my friend,” he said. “He had it pointed at him and said ‘I’ll shoot,’ one more time.”

A second later Johnson said he heard the first shot go off.

“I seen the fire come out of the barrell,” he said. “I could see so vividly what was going on because I was so close.”

Johnson says he was within arm’s reach of both Brown and the officer. He looked over at Brown and saw blood pooling through his shirt on the right side of the body.

“The whole time [the officer] was holding my friend until the gun went off,” Johnson noted.

Brown and Johnson took off running together.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/eyewitness-michael-brown-fatal-shooting-missouri

Well I guess that's it then.

 

[TobiasFunke]

What's the theory of the victim's supporters here, the cop was just plain, mean, evil and decided to take the kid out?

Basically, yeah. There are a very large number of police officers in the US. Some of them have power issues, and basic statistics guarantees that a certain percentage of them will be mentally unhinged. It's not that far-fetched to entertain the possibility that this cop was one of those guys.

It seems a little disingenuous to not even mention the possibility of a racial component. This is the third unarmed black man in the last month killed by police officers despite appearing by most or all accounts to pose no threat to the police officers at the time of the homicide (the others, if anyone is curious, are Eric Garner and John Crawford). I'm not aware of any similar incidents involving unarmed victims of any other race during the last month. Whether that played a role in this particular incident or not, it's a huge part of the story and the reason for the outrage from the black community.

 

[tommyGunZ]

What's the theory of the victim's supporters here, the cop was just plain, mean, evil and decided to take the kid out?

Basically, yeah. There are a very large number of police officers in the US. Some of them have power issues, and basic statistics guarantees that a certain percentage of them will be mentally unhinged. It's not that far-fetched to entertain the possibility that this cop was one of those guys.

I think it's more subtle than that. We are conditioned to be scared of people who do not look like us. Some of it is racism, some of it is a natural byproduct of our country's racist history.

Trying to find a motive at this point is a fools errand. Perhaps details will emerge that suggest the cop is an active racist and this incident can be tied directly to other forms of bigotry he has displayed in the past. But if I had to wager, I'd guess that it was much more fear based than overt "evil".

 

[Yenrub]

What's the theory of the victim's supporters here, the cop was just plain, mean, evil and decided to take the kid out?

Basically, yeah. There are a very large number of police officers in the US. Some of them have power issues, and basic statistics guarantees that a certain percentage of them will be mentally unhinged. It's not that far-fetched to entertain the possibility that this cop was one of those guys.

After telling the officer that they were almost at their destination, Johnson’s house, the two continued walking. But as they did, Johnson says the officer slammed his brakes and threw his truck in reverse, nearly hitting them.

Now, in line with the officer’s driver’s side door, they could see the officer’s face. They heard him say something to the effect of, “what’d you say?” At the same time, Johnson says the officer attempted to thrust his door open but the door slammed into Brown and bounced closed. Johnson says the officer, with his left hand, grabbed Brown by the neck.

“I could see the muscles in his forearm,” Johnson said. “Mike was trying to get away from being choked.”

“They’re not wrestling so much as his arm went from his throat to now clenched on his shirt,” Johnson explained of the scene between Brown and the officer. “It’s like tug of war. He’s trying to pull him in. He’s pulling away, that’s when I heard, ‘I’m gonna shoot you.’”

At that moment, Johnson says he fixed his gaze on the officer to see if he was pulling a stun gun or a real gun. That’s when he saw the muzzle of the officer’s gun.

“I seen the barrel of the gun pointed at my friend,” he said. “He had it pointed at him and said ‘I’ll shoot,’ one more time.”

A second later Johnson said he heard the first shot go off.

“I seen the fire come out of the barrell,” he said. “I could see so vividly what was going on because I was so close.”

Johnson says he was within arm’s reach of both Brown and the officer. He looked over at Brown and saw blood pooling through his shirt on the right side of the body.

“The whole time [the officer] was holding my friend until the gun went off,” Johnson noted.

Brown and Johnson took off running together.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/eyewitness-michael-brown-fatal-shooting-missouri

Well I guess that's it then.

This part of the eyewitness story probably has a lot to do with the outrage

Brown made it past the third car. Then, “blam!” the officer took his second shot, striking Brown in the back. At that point, Johnson says Brown stopped, turned with his hands up and said “I don’t have a gun, stop shooting!”

 

[IvanKaramazov]

What's the theory of the victim's supporters here, the cop was just plain, mean, evil and decided to take the kid out?

Basically, yeah. There are a very large number of police officers in the US. Some of them have power issues, and basic statistics guarantees that a certain percentage of them will be mentally unhinged. It's not that far-fetched to entertain the possibility that this cop was one of those guys.

I think it's more subtle than that. We are conditioned to be scared of people who do not look like us. Some of it is racism, some of it is a natural byproduct of our country's racist history.

Trying to find a motive at this point is a fools errand. Perhaps details will emerge that suggest the cop is an active racist and this incident can be tied directly to other forms of bigotry he has displayed in the past. But if I had to wager, I'd guess that it was much more fear based than overt "evil".

That's certainly possible, yeah. I was just trying to get across the point that it's quite possible that this cop really was just a bad guy, for whatever reason.

 

[TobiasFunke]

What's the theory of the victim's supporters here, the cop was just plain, mean, evil and decided to take the kid out?

Basically, yeah. There are a very large number of police officers in the US. Some of them have power issues, and basic statistics guarantees that a certain percentage of them will be mentally unhinged. It's not that far-fetched to entertain the possibility that this cop was one of those guys.

It seems a little disingenuous to not even mention the possibility of a racial component. This is the third unarmed black man in the last month killed by police officers despite appearing by most or all accounts to pose no threat to the police officers at the time of the homicide (the others, if anyone is curious, are Eric Garner and John Crawford). I'm not aware of any similar incidents involving unarmed victims of any other race during the last month. Whether that played a role in this particular incident or not, it's a huge part of the story and the reason for the outrage from the black community.

Disingenous?

Yup. Race is a huge part of the story and of the "theory of the victim's supporters," who allege race likely played a role in the cop's actions. The supporters have contrasted this victim's treatment with, say, the Denver movie shooter who killed 12 people and was taken alive.

I assume you know that, but you didn't mention it. Thus, disingenuous. Sorry if that upsets you- seemed like a pretty innocent observation

 

[fatness]

Benjamin Crump, a lawyer representing the Brown family, said Tuesday that Mr. Johnson had yet to be called in for questioning by the police and wanted to speak only to federal authorities.

“He does not trust the local law enforcement community,” Mr. Crump said. “How could he? He saw his friend executed.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/13/us/ferguson-police-cite-safety-risk-in-decision-not-to-name-officer-in-shooting.html?_r=0

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

What's the theory of the victim's supporters here, the cop was just plain, mean, evil and decided to take the kid out?

Basically, yeah. There are a very large number of police officers in the US. Some of them have power issues, and basic statistics guarantees that a certain percentage of them will be mentally unhinged. It's not that far-fetched to entertain the possibility that this cop was one of those guys.

After telling the officer that they were almost at their destination, Johnson’s house, the two continued walking. But as they did, Johnson says the officer slammed his brakes and threw his truck in reverse, nearly hitting them.

Now, in line with the officer’s driver’s side door, they could see the officer’s face. They heard him say something to the effect of, “what’d you say?” At the same time, Johnson says the officer attempted to thrust his door open but the door slammed into Brown and bounced closed. Johnson says the officer, with his left hand, grabbed Brown by the neck.

“I could see the muscles in his forearm,” Johnson said. “Mike was trying to get away from being choked.”

“They’re not wrestling so much as his arm went from his throat to now clenched on his shirt,” Johnson explained of the scene between Brown and the officer. “It’s like tug of war. He’s trying to pull him in. He’s pulling away, that’s when I heard, ‘I’m gonna shoot you.’”

At that moment, Johnson says he fixed his gaze on the officer to see if he was pulling a stun gun or a real gun. That’s when he saw the muzzle of the officer’s gun.

“I seen the barrel of the gun pointed at my friend,” he said. “He had it pointed at him and said ‘I’ll shoot,’ one more time.”

A second later Johnson said he heard the first shot go off.

“I seen the fire come out of the barrell,” he said. “I could see so vividly what was going on because I was so close.”

Johnson says he was within arm’s reach of both Brown and the officer. He looked over at Brown and saw blood pooling through his shirt on the right side of the body.

“The whole time [the officer] was holding my friend until the gun went off,” Johnson noted.

Brown and Johnson took off running together.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/eyewitness-michael-brown-fatal-shooting-missouri

Well I guess that's it then.

This part of the eyewitness story probably has a lot to do with the outrage

Brown made it past the third car. Then, “blam!” the officer took his second shot, striking Brown in the back. At that point, Johnson says Brown stopped, turned with his hands up and said “I don’t have a gun, stop shooting!”

Yeah, I'll post the rest:

“The whole time [the officer] was holding my friend until the gun went off,” Johnson noted.

Brown and Johnson took off running together. There were three cars lined up along the side of the street. Johnson says he ducked behind the first car, whose two passengers were screaming. Crouching down a bit, he watched Brown run past.

“Keep running, bro!,” he said Brown yelled. Then Brown yelled it a second time. Those would be the last words Johnson’s friend, “Big Mike,” would ever say to him.

Brown made it past the third car. Then, “blam!” the officer took his second shot, striking Brown in the back. At that point, Johnson says Brown stopped, turned with his hands up and said “I don’t have a gun, stop shooting!”


By that point, Johnson says the officer and Brown were face-to-face. The officer then fired several more shots. Johnson described watching Brown go from standing with his hands up to crumbling to the ground and curling into a fetal position.

...

There has been some terrible stuff done by cops here in NO. The feds have actually planted a monitor inside the police force, the NOPD itself (and the parish jail also) is under federal oversight by consent decree - which I agree with and am happy about. This series of events, if true as told, is awful. What has to happen here is absolute transparency within that Ferguson police force. Take a look at everything, their finances, their record keeping and crime stats, past convictions, everything.

 

[jon_mx]

If the story is anywhere close to true, the cop needs to be in jail. Since there seems to be a pattern of shootings by cops here, there needs to be some further investigation.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Benjamin Crump, a lawyer representing the Brown family, said Tuesday that Mr. Johnson had yet to be called in for questioning by the police and wanted to speak only to federal authorities.

“He does not trust the local law enforcement community,” Mr. Crump said. “How could he? He saw his friend executed.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/13/us/ferguson-police-cite-safety-risk-in-decision-not-to-name-officer-in-shooting.html?_r=0

Unbelievable that he hasn't been called in for questioning. Would love to hear the rationale behind not interviewing Johnson at this point.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

I think it's more subtle than that. We are conditioned to be scared of people who do not look like us. Some of it is racism, some of it is a natural byproduct of our country's racist history.

Could some of it be natural in-group bias that all racial groups exhibit? Studies show that children exhibit in-group racial bias as young as six months old. (link)

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I think it's more subtle than that. We are conditioned to be scared of people who do not look like us. Some of it is racism, some of it is a natural byproduct of our country's racist history.

Could some of it be natural in-group bias that all racial groups exhibit? Studies show that children exhibit in-group racial bias as young as six months old. (link)

Depends on where you grow up, maybe people in lily white suburban Marin Cty CA for instance don't interact with other ethnicities much (just an example). I'm guessing this cop didn't have any lack of interracial interaction.

 

[urbanhack]

What's the theory of the victim's supporters here, the cop was just plain, mean, evil and decided to take the kid out?

Basically, yeah. There are a very large number of police officers in the US. Some of them have power issues, and basic statistics guarantees that a certain percentage of them will be mentally unhinged. It's not that far-fetched to entertain the possibility that this cop was one of those guys.

I think it's more subtle than that. We are conditioned to be scared of people who do not look like us.

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t31.0-8/10608803_10101585389638251_2960420538901245932_o.jpg

 

[IvanKaramazov]

What's the theory of the victim's supporters here, the cop was just plain, mean, evil and decided to take the kid out?

Basically, yeah. There are a very large number of police officers in the US. Some of them have power issues, and basic statistics guarantees that a certain percentage of them will be mentally unhinged. It's not that far-fetched to entertain the possibility that this cop was one of those guys.

It seems a little disingenuous to not even mention the possibility of a racial component. This is the third unarmed black man in the last month killed by police officers despite appearing by most or all accounts to pose no threat to the police officers at the time of the homicide (the others, if anyone is curious, are Eric Garner and John Crawford). I'm not aware of any similar incidents involving unarmed victims of any other race during the last month. Whether that played a role in this particular incident or not, it's a huge part of the story and the reason for the outrage from the black community.

Disingenous?

Yup. Race is a huge part of the story and of the "theory of the victim's supporters," who allege race likely played a role in the cop's actions. The supporters have contrasted this victim's treatment with, say, the Denver movie shooter who killed 12 people and was taken alive.

I assume you know that, but you didn't mention it. Thus, disingenuous. Sorry if that upsets you- seemed like a pretty innocent observation

Kindly #### off. I'm lots of things. Dishonest isn't one of them.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

unfortunately the guy that tossed the first rock through a business window is a local hero.....and many of the people there were just waiting for it to "go off" so they could get some free ####....opportunist who if you walked into their home probably couldn't even tell you the name of the victim in this case while they played their new XBox game on their new TV....not sure why we are surprised by this and really have discussions about it....it's happened before, it's happening now, and it will happen again...to me this is the expected reaction in some situations and not really a surprise....it's not going to be any different next time......deal with it....

great summary!

thank you...it is what is what it is....this thread was about the looting......facts of the case really don't matter to the looters....they ain't giving it back if it is proven the shooting was justified...

 

[timschochet]

I don't think Ivan was being disingenuous or dishonest in the least. He didn't mention the racial element- so what? Is there anyone who is aware of this story who doesn't know there is a racial element?

Tobias, I generally agree with your position on these issues, but you take it too far when you make these sorts of accusations.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Benjamin Crump, a lawyer representing the Brown family, said Tuesday that Mr. Johnson had yet to be called in for questioning by the police and wanted to speak only to federal authorities.

“He does not trust the local law enforcement community,” Mr. Crump said. “How could he? He saw his friend executed.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/13/us/ferguson-police-cite-safety-risk-in-decision-not-to-name-officer-in-shooting.html?_r=0

Unbelievable that he hasn't been called in for questioning. Would love to hear the rationale behind not interviewing Johnson at this point.

He needs to go in and put it on the record, with a transcript, with his attorneys present, even record it if need be. He should do it for his friend, it would actually corner the police if what he says is true. - On the other hand, maybe it's just a matter of time before the feds take over.

 

[Boston]

As long as there is a rush to judgment prior to the facts being known these events will only further divide the country...for too many people they are incapable of seeing these events outside of how they want them to play out...once they make up their mind they see everything thru that lens...if this cop killed the kid for no reason (or did not follow correct procedures) than he should feel the full brunt of the law...hopefully those in the police community will not back him simply because he's a fellow officer...if this kid did actually pose a threat to the officer hopefully those who see everything thru race will admit that and not use this event to further their own beliefs or make political statements ratcheting up emotions...regardless of what happens there is a very serious issue of crime in the inner-cities and until some honest discussions of what causes it and how it can be handled correctly by law-enforcement it's not going away...the leaders of the black communities and law-enforcement have to all get on the same page and until they do incidents like this will continue to occur and divide us further as a country...

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

As long as there is a rush to judgment prior to the facts being known these events will only further divide the country...for too many people they are incapable of seeing these events outside of how they want them to play out...once they make up their mind they see everything thru that lens...if this cop killed the kid for no reason (or did not follow correct procedures) than he should feel the full brunt of the law...hopefully those in the police community will not back him simply because he's a fellow officer...if this kid did actually pose a threat to the officer hopefully those who see everything thru race will admit that and not use this event to further their own beliefs or make a political statements ratcheting up emotions...regardless of what happens there is a very serious issue of crime in the inner-cities and until some honest discussions of what causes it and how it can be handled correctly by law-enforcement it's not going away...the leaders of the black communities and law-enforcement have to all get on the same page and until they do incidents like this will continue to occur and divide us further as a country...

Conversely that cop had better have a damned good reason why he pulled these guys over in the first place. Something like the cops were on the lookout for teens who had committed a crime or something. If they were walking home two blocks from their house, absolutely totally not ok to just harass them.

 

[Boston]

As long as there is a rush to judgment prior to the facts being known these events will only further divide the country...for too many people they are incapable of seeing these events outside of how they want them to play out...once they make up their mind they see everything thru that lens...if this cop killed the kid for no reason (or did not follow correct procedures) than he should feel the full brunt of the law...hopefully those in the police community will not back him simply because he's a fellow officer...if this kid did actually pose a threat to the officer hopefully those who see everything thru race will admit that and not use this event to further their own beliefs or make a political statements ratcheting up emotions...regardless of what happens there is a very serious issue of crime in the inner-cities and until some honest discussions of what causes it and how it can be handled correctly by law-enforcement it's not going away...the leaders of the black communities and law-enforcement have to all get on the same page and until they do incidents like this will continue to occur and divide us further as a country...

Conversely that cop had better have a damned good reason why he pulled these guys over in the first place. Something like the cops were on the lookout for teens who had committed a crime or something. If they were walking home two blocks from their house, absolutely totally not ok to just harass them.

Could not agree more...he killed someone and regardless of race there better be a very good reason why...he must be held accountable for his actions but let's find out what those actions were first before convicting him...

 

[timschochet]

As long as there is a rush to judgment prior to the facts being known these events will only further divide the country...for too many people they are incapable of seeing these events outside of how they want them to play out...once they make up their mind they see everything thru that lens...if this cop killed the kid for no reason (or did not follow correct procedures) than he should feel the full brunt of the law...hopefully those in the police community will not back him simply because he's a fellow officer...if this kid did actually pose a threat to the officer hopefully those who see everything thru race will admit that and not use this event to further their own beliefs or make a political statements ratcheting up emotions...regardless of what happens there is a very serious issue of crime in the inner-cities and until some honest discussions of what causes it and how it can be handled correctly by law-enforcement it's not going away...the leaders of the black communities and law-enforcement have to all get on the same page and until they do incidents like this will continue to occur and divide us further as a country...

The combination of the 24 hour news cycle and the internet guarantees greater rush to judgment than ever before. That being said, I think you miss the point by focusing on this aspect of it.

The reason these sorts of reported incidents, whether true or not, receive so much uproar is because most African-Americans, especially those living in poor urban areas, have been subject to racism and mistreatment by the police. So when a black man is killed by a white policeman in one of these areas for whatever reason, they are almost always inclined to view it through a lens of great suspicion and anger.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

unfortunately the guy that tossed the first rock through a business window is a local hero.....and many of the people there were just waiting for it to "go off" so they could get some free ####....opportunist who if you walked into their home probably couldn't even tell you the name of the victim in this case while they played their new XBox game on their new TV....not sure why we are surprised by this and really have discussions about it....it's happened before, it's happening now, and it will happen again...to me this is the expected reaction in some situations and not really a surprise....it's not going to be any different next time......deal with it....

great summary!

thank you...it is what is what it is....this thread was about the looting......facts of the case really don't matter to the looters....they ain't giving it back if it is proven the shooting was justified...

It is? The reason behind the looting is pretty important in discussing the looting.

I have thought about how bad it is to loot business owners for absolutely no GD reason. And there is Sharpton, the original baiter. On the other hand, maybe we should be happy no one ever gets the bright idea to take it out on the authorities themselves, you know the police and city hall, the folks who actually craft the policy. There's a word for that.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I don't think Ivan was being disingenuous or dishonest in the least. He didn't mention the racial element- so what? Is there anyone who is aware of this story who doesn't know there is a racial element?

Tobias, I generally agree with your position on these issues, but you take it too far when you make these sorts of accusations.

Kindly #### off. I'm lots of things. Dishonest isn't one of them.

Really, guys? Calling a post disingenuous is some sort of horrible insult to the poster now? Can you guys really not separate the post from the poster?

If someone asks the theory of the victim's supporters and you don't mention that many think the cop's action was likely colored by racial bias, I consider that a disingenuous reply. I didn't say anything about Ivan, who I respect very much. You can call a post disingenuous, or weird, or misinformed, or stupid, or lots of other adjectives, without calling the poster the same thing.

 

[meatwad1]

Meatwad and TPW wondering "why don't these guys ever speak out against black on black crime?" reminds me of some conservatives who always wonder why Muslim leaders never speak out against Islamic violence- when in fact they always do.

The facts are out there guys, and easily accessed. But I doubt you'll ever look for them because they don't match your agenda.

Classic Tim....nice job taking the bait. This never even happened. Of course, it took all of two seconds to find this. Nice try buddy.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/Felsenthal-Files/April-2014/Where-Have-You-Been-Al-Sharpton-Chicago-Turns-Its-Frightened-Eyes-to-You/

 

[timschochet]

Saints, I detest Sharpton as much as you do. But to be fair, he came into this only AFTER the protests, and he has spoken out against violence and looting in this instance.

He's really not an important part of this story (though I'm sure he would like to be.)

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Saints, I detest Sharpton as much as you do. But to be fair, he came into this only AFTER the protests, and he has spoken out against violence and looting in this instance.

He's really not an important part of this story (though I'm sure he would like to be.)

That guy in a racially heated situation is like a dude carrying a cigarette around in a gasoline depot. You're just hoping he doesn't drop the cigarette. He literally preys on these events for profit.

 

[jonessed]

I think it's more subtle than that. We are conditioned to be scared of people who do not look like us. Some of it is racism, some of it is a natural byproduct of our country's racist history.

Could some of it be natural in-group bias that all racial groups exhibit? Studies show that children exhibit in-group racial bias as young as six months old. (link)

Depends on where you grow up, maybe people in lily white suburban Marin Cty CA for instance don't interact with other ethnicities much (just an example). I'm guessing this cop didn't have any lack of interracial interaction.

Marin City is about 40% black.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Benjamin Crump, a lawyer representing the Brown family, said Tuesday that Mr. Johnson had yet to be called in for questioning by the police and wanted to speak only to federal authorities.

“He does not trust the local law enforcement community,” Mr. Crump said. “How could he? He saw his friend executed.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/13/us/ferguson-police-cite-safety-risk-in-decision-not-to-name-officer-in-shooting.html?_r=0

Unbelievable that he hasn't been called in for questioning. Would love to hear the rationale behind not interviewing Johnson at this point.

He has been (see the link I posted a page or two back); he just hasn't gone to them yet, for the reasons stated in the post you quoted.

 

[timschochet]

Meatwad and TPW wondering "why don't these guys ever speak out against black on black crime?" reminds me of some conservatives who always wonder why Muslim leaders never speak out against Islamic violence- when in fact they always do.

The facts are out there guys, and easily accessed. But I doubt you'll ever look for them because they don't match your agenda.

Classic Tim....nice job taking the bait. This never even happened. Of course, it took all of two seconds to find this. Nice try buddy.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/Felsenthal-Files/April-2014/Where-Have-You-Been-Al-Sharpton-Chicago-Turns-Its-Frightened-Eyes-to-You/

Don't look to me to defend Sharpton.

But I believe you made a wider claim that neither black leaders, nor the media, are paying attention to black on black crime, whereas acts of reported racism by white police against blacks always make the news, and you were implying a double standard. That is demonstrably false. Black leaders and the media DO pay plenty of attention to black on black crime. The truth is that we the public, tune out because it's repetitive, depressing, and no solution is ever offered beyond "hey, don't do that!"

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I think it's more subtle than that. We are conditioned to be scared of people who do not look like us. Some of it is racism, some of it is a natural byproduct of our country's racist history.

Could some of it be natural in-group bias that all racial groups exhibit? Studies show that children exhibit in-group racial bias as young as six months old. (link)

Depends on where you grow up, maybe people in lily white suburban Marin Cty CA for instance don't interact with other ethnicities much (just an example). I'm guessing this cop didn't have any lack of interracial interaction.

Marin City is about 40% black.

( see I knew I shouldn't have mentioned anywhere specific). Thanks, apologies to Marin-ers, noted.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Look at what he's in the middle of

Excellent point. If I found myself surrounded by armed assailants who shoot unarmed kids in the back I'd be a bit tetchy too.

 

[Boston]

As long as there is a rush to judgment prior to the facts being known these events will only further divide the country...for too many people they are incapable of seeing these events outside of how they want them to play out...once they make up their mind they see everything thru that lens...if this cop killed the kid for no reason (or did not follow correct procedures) than he should feel the full brunt of the law...hopefully those in the police community will not back him simply because he's a fellow officer...if this kid did actually pose a threat to the officer hopefully those who see everything thru race will admit that and not use this event to further their own beliefs or make a political statements ratcheting up emotions...regardless of what happens there is a very serious issue of crime in the inner-cities and until some honest discussions of what causes it and how it can be handled correctly by law-enforcement it's not going away...the leaders of the black communities and law-enforcement have to all get on the same page and until they do incidents like this will continue to occur and divide us further as a country...

The combination of the 24 hour news cycle and the internet guarantees greater rush to judgment than ever before. That being said, I think you miss the point by focusing on this aspect of it.

The reason these sorts of reported incidents, whether true or not, receive so much uproar is because most African-Americans, especially those living in poor urban areas, have been subject to racism and mistreatment by the police. So when a black man is killed by a white policeman in one of these areas for whatever reason, they are almost always inclined to view it through a lens of great suspicion and anger.

No...I do not miss the point...I fully understand what you are saying and I do agree a big component is what you say...yet, if you only focus on that you are seeing it only thru your lens...there is major violence going on in these areas and to think a cop is not more on-guard when he is in situations in these communities is being incredibly naïve...also, you have issues where the black communities gets outraged over crime yet many don't like policies like the stop and frisk or there are codes of no-snitching which make solving crimes that much more difficult...while I have zero doubts that there is legitimacy to many of the suspicions of the black community towards the police there is much more to this situation than that...

 

[Gary Coal Man]

I think it's more subtle than that. We are conditioned to be scared of people who do not look like us. Some of it is racism, some of it is a natural byproduct of our country's racist history.

Could some of it be natural in-group bias that all racial groups exhibit? Studies show that children exhibit in-group racial bias as young as six months old. (link)

Depends on where you grow up, maybe people in lily white suburban Marin Cty CA for instance don't interact with other ethnicities much (just an example). I'm guessing this cop didn't have any lack of interracial interaction.

Statistics don't support the notion that significant racial interaction creates a more liberal view on race among whites. States with the highest percentage of whites who identify as Liberal and have more liberal vies on race include the New England states, Wisconsin and Minnesota. These states have a low percentage of black citizens (and minority residents in general). Meanwhile, the states with the highest percentage of whites who identify as Conservative and have more conservative views on race are the Southern states. Southern states have the highest percentage of black residents. We see a similar dynamic along the border states where white residents in the states with the highest percentage of Hispanic residents tend to be Conservative with more conservative views on race.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

unfortunately the guy that tossed the first rock through a business window is a local hero.....and many of the people there were just waiting for it to "go off" so they could get some free ####....opportunist who if you walked into their home probably couldn't even tell you the name of the victim in this case while they played their new XBox game on their new TV....not sure why we are surprised by this and really have discussions about it....it's happened before, it's happening now, and it will happen again...to me this is the expected reaction in some situations and not really a surprise....it's not going to be any different next time......deal with it....

great summary!

thank you...it is what is what it is....this thread was about the looting......facts of the case really don't matter to the looters....they ain't giving it back if it is proven the shooting was justified...

It is? The reason behind the looting is pretty important in discussing the looting.

I have thought about how bad it is to loot business owners for absolutely no GD reason. And there is Sharpton, the original baiter. On the other hand, maybe we should be happy no one ever gets the bright idea to take it out on the authorities themselves, you know the police and city hall, the folks who actually craft the policy. There's a word for that.

for us sitting here discussing the looting....sure.....we can sit here and break it all down, blah, blah, blah....

but when these looters steal things they aren't thinking about WHY they are stealing it.....they are just taking advantage of an opportunity.....I'll stand by my statement that many of them still couldn't tell you the victim's last name if you interrupted their XBox game.....

 

[jonessed]

I think it's more subtle than that. We are conditioned to be scared of people who do not look like us. Some of it is racism, some of it is a natural byproduct of our country's racist history.

Could some of it be natural in-group bias that all racial groups exhibit? Studies show that children exhibit in-group racial bias as young as six months old. (link)

Depends on where you grow up, maybe people in lily white suburban Marin Cty CA for instance don't interact with other ethnicities much (just an example). I'm guessing this cop didn't have any lack of interracial interaction.

Marin City is about 40% black.

( see I knew I shouldn't have mentioned anywhere specific). Thanks, apologies to Marin-ers, noted.

Marin is pretty white. Marin City is a particular part of Marin with a lot of low-income housing.

 

[meatwad1]

Here is a nice example of Al Sharpton's work blowing up in his face...taken from of of the days he was in Chicago, where according to Slappy and Timbo, he is now 'living'. Actually anyone who actually works and is friends with real African Americans knows that the vast majority are slowly shifting their thinking to along these lines. The last straw will be when President Nutsack helps Tim realize his DREAM of legalizing 10 million people at the expense of all the inner city suffering that is going on in our cities. Timbo would not know anything about that though, he is a suburbs guy all the way and just likes to take shots from the gallery rather than work on the front lines.

http://allenbwest.com/2013/12/amazing-video-black-people-erupt-al-sharptons-town-hall-meeting/

 

[timschochet]

Yes Boston, you are also right. The fact is that police are expected to fight crime in high crime urban areas in which the populace treats them with great suspicion- and so they feel like they are in a war zone. Police, especially whites, in these areas can spend a career trying to help the community, spending their off hours in volunteer work with children and others, trying to protect legitimate businesspeople and keep violence off the streets. And yet none of that matters- after one of these incidents, they are all treated with hatred and suspicion. Is it any wonder that some of them respond with racist attitudes in return? Is it any wonder that many of them feel like they are the victims, and that they live in a war zone?

It's a depressing cycle. I think it's easy to understand all sides. What's difficult is how to make it better.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I think it's more subtle than that. We are conditioned to be scared of people who do not look like us. Some of it is racism, some of it is a natural byproduct of our country's racist history.

Could some of it be natural in-group bias that all racial groups exhibit? Studies show that children exhibit in-group racial bias as young as six months old. (link)

Depends on where you grow up, maybe people in lily white suburban Marin Cty CA for instance don't interact with other ethnicities much (just an example). I'm guessing this cop didn't have any lack of interracial interaction.

Statistics don't necessarily support the notion that significant interaction creates a more liberal view on race among whites. States with the highest percentage of whites who identify as Liberal and have more liberal vies on race include the New England states, Wisconsin and Minnesota. These states have a low percentage of black citizens (and minority residents in general). Meanwhile, the states with the highest percentage of whites who identify as Conservative and have more conservative views on race are the Southern states. Southern states have the highest percentage of black residents. We see a similar dynamic along the border states where white residents in the states with the highest percentage of Hispanic residents tend to be Conservative with more conservative views on race.

That's actually a different issue IMO. You're talking political ideology or viewpoint.

Gunz was talking about being "scared of people who do not look like us." That's a physical, visceral, psychological reaction. Take a liberal from MN and place him walking within a few blocks of a project or downtown in Atlanta or NO or Baltimore etc. and see how he reacts.

 

[timschochet]

The last straw will be when President Nutsack helps Tim realize his DREAM of legalizing 10 million people at the expense of all the inner city suffering that is going on in our cities. Timbo would not know anything about that though, he is a suburbs guy all the way and just likes to take shots from the gallery rather than work on the front lines.

You know very little about me. But that doesn't matter. What matters is your belief, shared by many others, that giving legal recognition to illegal immigrants already in this country will somehow make things worse in the inner cities. This is a completely false and absurd notion, but we should probably save it for a different thread.

 

[meatwad1]

Meatwad and TPW wondering "why don't these guys ever speak out against black on black crime?" reminds me of some conservatives who always wonder why Muslim leaders never speak out against Islamic violence- when in fact they always do.

The facts are out there guys, and easily accessed. But I doubt you'll ever look for them because they don't match your agenda.

Classic Tim....nice job taking the bait. This never even happened. Of course, it took all of two seconds to find this. Nice try buddy.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/Felsenthal-Files/April-2014/Where-Have-You-Been-Al-Sharpton-Chicago-Turns-Its-Frightened-Eyes-to-You/

Don't look to me to defend Sharpton.

But I believe you made a wider claim that neither black leaders, nor the media, are paying attention to black on black crime, whereas acts of reported racism by white police against blacks always make the news, and you were implying a double standard. That is demonstrably false. Black leaders and the media DO pay plenty of attention to black on black crime. The truth is that we the public, tune out because it's repetitive, depressing, and no solution is ever offered beyond "hey, don't do that!"

Black leaders, starting with the detestable and feeble minded twit we have running this place have done nothing. Things are getting worse for black Americans. I know some of you guys hate cops, but really, do you think any of this ends well for the average black person in our society? Our cops are armed to the teeth with high grade military style weaponry. The looting begins and you fools egg it on by rationalizing it and floating ideas that it is justified because of a Sociology class you took in 1989. It is a bunch of tripe. There is no excuse to not condemn this in the most vigorous way and not only to you guys not condemn it, you further deflect the blame by pointing at anyone who does and call them a racist. WTF.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

I think it's more subtle than that. We are conditioned to be scared of people who do not look like us. Some of it is racism, some of it is a natural byproduct of our country's racist history.

Could some of it be natural in-group bias that all racial groups exhibit? Studies show that children exhibit in-group racial bias as young as six months old. (link)

Depends on where you grow up, maybe people in lily white suburban Marin Cty CA for instance don't interact with other ethnicities much (just an example). I'm guessing this cop didn't have any lack of interracial interaction.

Statistics don't necessarily support the notion that significant interaction creates a more liberal view on race among whites. States with the highest percentage of whites who identify as Liberal and have more liberal vies on race include the New England states, Wisconsin and Minnesota. These states have a low percentage of black citizens (and minority residents in general). Meanwhile, the states with the highest percentage of whites who identify as Conservative and have more conservative views on race are the Southern states. Southern states have the highest percentage of black residents. We see a similar dynamic along the border states where white residents in the states with the highest percentage of Hispanic residents tend to be Conservative with more conservative views on race.

That's actually a different issue IMO. You're talking political ideology or viewpoint.

Gunz was talking about being "scared of people who do not look like us." That's a physical, visceral, psychological reaction. Take a liberal from MN and place him walking within a few blocks of a project or downtown in Atlanta or NO or Baltimore etc. and see how he reacts.

I think he'll react with greater naivete than a person who has greater exposure to those bad sections of those respective cities.

 

[meatwad1]

The last straw will be when President Nutsack helps Tim realize his DREAM of legalizing 10 million people at the expense of all the inner city suffering that is going on in our cities. Timbo would not know anything about that though, he is a suburbs guy all the way and just likes to take shots from the gallery rather than work on the front lines.

You know very little about me. But that doesn't matter. What matters is your belief, shared by many others, that giving legal recognition to illegal immigrants already in this country will somehow make things worse in the inner cities. This is a completely false and absurd notion, but we should probably save it for a different thread.

Well, I reserve the right to make assumptions when I have a group of choads who are making not so subtle insinuations that I am a card carrying member of the KKK. Sorry, but I sort of feel the urge to respond when that kind of stupidity is being bandied about.

 

[timschochet]

The last straw will be when President Nutsack helps Tim realize his DREAM of legalizing 10 million people at the expense of all the inner city suffering that is going on in our cities. Timbo would not know anything about that though, he is a suburbs guy all the way and just likes to take shots from the gallery rather than work on the front lines.

You know very little about me. But that doesn't matter. What matters is your belief, shared by many others, that giving legal recognition to illegal immigrants already in this country will somehow make things worse in the inner cities. This is a completely false and absurd notion, but we should probably save it for a different thread.

Well, I reserve the right to make assumptions when I have a group of choads who are making not so subtle insinuations that I am a card carrying member of the KKK. Sorry, but I sort of feel the urge to respond when that kind of stupidity is being bandied about.

Not from me. I disagree with many (though not all) of your points on these issues, but I don't consider you a racist.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I think it's more subtle than that. We are conditioned to be scared of people who do not look like us. Some of it is racism, some of it is a natural byproduct of our country's racist history.

Could some of it be natural in-group bias that all racial groups exhibit? Studies show that children exhibit in-group racial bias as young as six months old. (link)

Depends on where you grow up, maybe people in lily white suburban Marin Cty CA for instance don't interact with other ethnicities much (just an example). I'm guessing this cop didn't have any lack of interracial interaction.

Statistics don't necessarily support the notion that significant interaction creates a more liberal view on race among whites. States with the highest percentage of whites who identify as Liberal and have more liberal vies on race include the New England states, Wisconsin and Minnesota. These states have a low percentage of black citizens (and minority residents in general). Meanwhile, the states with the highest percentage of whites who identify as Conservative and have more conservative views on race are the Southern states. Southern states have the highest percentage of black residents. We see a similar dynamic along the border states where white residents in the states with the highest percentage of Hispanic residents tend to be Conservative with more conservative views on race.

That's actually a different issue IMO. You're talking political ideology or viewpoint.

Gunz was talking about being "scared of people who do not look like us." That's a physical, visceral, psychological reaction. Take a liberal from MN and place him walking within a few blocks of a project or downtown in Atlanta or NO or Baltimore etc. and see how he reacts.

I think he'll react with greater naivete than a person who has greater exposure to those bad sections of those respective cities.

Well naivete (or ignorance) is what racism is all about, isn't it.