Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (3 Viewers)

[GrandpaRox]

Wilson gaining support:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-darren-wilson-support/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

im gonna say that even if Wilson was found totally at fault and guilty of killing Brown un- provoked he would still have a lot of supporters . Its common practice to vilify the victims of killings like this ,especially if they are black . Already fake pictures of Brown are circulating with him holding a gun ,it turns out a cop posted the pic and it was of some other kid who had killed his grandmother. Now there is a criminal record on the internet that isnt Browns but people claiming it is . Happened to treyvon martin and its happening now .

Kind of like how if wilson is exonerated you will still feel exactly how you do now?

if hes exonerated even tho Brown was unarmed and killed 30 feet away from Wilson then yes ,i will have an issue with it.

Then you are irrationally close minded. Mr. Brown may have been unarmed, but he was a substantial threat, due to his size. If he was charging at the officer, why would it be a problem for you that the officer fired to defend himself? I suspect that if you were in that situation, you would shoot as well.

man....one woman who claims she knows the cop calls a talk show and everyone immediately believes her 3rd hand version of what the cops wife supposedly told her....and IM close minded? I wasnt at the scene ....im going by 4 separate eye witness accounts for my opinion.

4 separate biased accounts.

 

[timschochet]

Nice edit, Jim.

Tim's post (#3044) is not non-sensical at all -- he discarded the "blatant shots in the back" theory, and proposed another theory that would clear up some eyewitness ambiguity. Discarding the "victim recklessly charged the cop" theory is not crazy talk. It was easily possible that Brown was shot in the front without charging Wilson. All that was necessary was that Brown be facing Wilson.

EDIT: added post # in first sentence.

But "victim charging at cop" is supported by an almost contemporaneous account from a person who claims to have witnessed the altercation and has no personal stake in the outcome. Albeit, that account is in the background of a recording and the witness remains unidentified. Nonetheless, I'm not sure why someone would completely disregard an alleged eyewitness account that seems no less plausible than some of the other accounts not being dismissed.

Not sure who you're referring to. So far as I know, the only ones who have given this story (of the charging Brown) are:

1. A friend of Wilson's wife on a radio program.

2. A newspaper gossip columnist claiming that she is aware of 12 witnesses willing to back up the police's story (except that we don't have the police's story at this point.)

Is there somebody else? Because it's hard for me to take these sources with more than a grain of salt.

Here: http://buzzpo.com/breaking-news-new-witness-blows-huge-hole-michael-brown-case/#!

I'm sorry but I've never heard of "Buzzpo". It seems to be a conservative website. That doesn't mean it's not telling the truth here, only that I personally have no faith in such a source.

This is probably going to make some people here annoyed, but I continue to believe that unless it's been reported by one of the majors: CNN, NBC, Fox, the NY Times, the Washington Post, etc.- we should discount it.

Here: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/18/youtube-video-captures-purported-witness-backing-police-version-in-ferguson/

"Youtube Video", "Purported", "Apparently shows", etc. etc.

Fox themselves never interviewed the "purported witness." Otherwise the article would read, "Witness says..." So in essence, Fox did NOT report this.

I added Fox to be fair to them since they do have a news department and so many people use them as a source. But crap like this demonstrates why one should be skeptical of them as well. I can't imagine CNN, the NY Times, or the Washington Post running with this kind of "story." (I can see MSNBC doing it, though.)

CNN.com ran a similar story as the foxnews.com story.

That's really sad if true. Pathetic, actually.

 

[lod01]

Wilson gaining support:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-darren-wilson-support/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

im gonna say that even if Wilson was found totally at fault and guilty of killing Brown un- provoked he would still have a lot of supporters . Its common practice to vilify the victims of killings like this ,especially if they are black . Already fake pictures of Brown are circulating with him holding a gun ,it turns out a cop posted the pic and it was of some other kid who had killed his grandmother. Now there is a criminal record on the internet that isnt Browns but people claiming it is . Happened to treyvon martin and its happening now .

Kind of like how if wilson is exonerated you will still feel exactly how you do now?

if hes exonerated even tho Brown was unarmed and killed 30 feet away from Wilson then yes ,i will have an issue with it.

Then you are irrationally close minded. Mr. Brown may have been unarmed, but he was a substantial threat, due to his size. If he was charging at the officer, why would it be a problem for you that the officer fired to defend himself? I suspect that if you were in that situation, you would shoot as well.

man....one woman who claims she knows the cop calls a talk show and everyone immediately believes her 3rd hand version of what the cops wife supposedly told her....and IM close minded? I wasnt at the scene ....im going by 4 separate eye witness accounts for my opinion.

4 separate biased accounts.

Contradicted by the recorded account immediately after the incident. Someone who did not know they were being recorded at the time.

 

[GrandpaRox]

Of those 4, how many were discredited by the autopsy report?

The crime reporter for the St Louis Post-Dispatch has reported there are dozens of witnesses that corroborated the cop's version of events.

http://twitchy.com/2014/08/18/post-dispatch-reporter-more-than-a-dozen-witnesses-have-corroborated-cops-version-of-events/

The sooner people realize they were fed a pile of bull #### when this story first came out, the less they're going to have to backtrack down the road.

Christine Byers ✔ @ChristineDByers
Police sources tell me more than a dozen witnesses have corroborated cop's version of events in shooting #Ferguson

Really????????? Police sources ???? LMAO

So we have some unknown woman on the radio and un-named police sources as the proof M.Brown is guilty of what?

Being black in America

Being a thug, bully and dangerous.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

Nice edit, Jim.

Tim's post (#3044) is not non-sensical at all -- he discarded the "blatant shots in the back" theory, and proposed another theory that would clear up some eyewitness ambiguity. Discarding the "victim recklessly charged the cop" theory is not crazy talk. It was easily possible that Brown was shot in the front without charging Wilson. All that was necessary was that Brown be facing Wilson.

EDIT: added post # in first sentence.

But "victim charging at cop" is supported by an almost contemporaneous account from a person who claims to have witnessed the altercation and has no personal stake in the outcome. Albeit, that account is in the background of a recording and the witness remains unidentified. Nonetheless, I'm not sure why someone would completely disregard an alleged eyewitness account that seems no less plausible than some of the other accounts not being dismissed.

Not sure who you're referring to. So far as I know, the only ones who have given this story (of the charging Brown) are:

1. A friend of Wilson's wife on a radio program.

2. A newspaper gossip columnist claiming that she is aware of 12 witnesses willing to back up the police's story (except that we don't have the police's story at this point.)

Is there somebody else? Because it's hard for me to take these sources with more than a grain of salt.

Here: http://buzzpo.com/breaking-news-new-witness-blows-huge-hole-michael-brown-case/#!

I'm sorry but I've never heard of "Buzzpo". It seems to be a conservative website. That doesn't mean it's not telling the truth here, only that I personally have no faith in such a source.

This is probably going to make some people here annoyed, but I continue to believe that unless it's been reported by one of the majors: CNN, NBC, Fox, the NY Times, the Washington Post, etc.- we should discount it.

Here: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/18/youtube-video-captures-purported-witness-backing-police-version-in-ferguson/

"Youtube Video", "Purported", "Apparently shows", etc. etc.

Fox themselves never interviewed the "purported witness." Otherwise the article would read, "Witness says..." So in essence, Fox did NOT report this.

I added Fox to be fair to them since they do have a news department and so many people use them as a source. But crap like this demonstrates why one should be skeptical of them as well. I can't imagine CNN, the NY Times, or the Washington Post running with this kind of "story." (I can see MSNBC doing it, though.)

You could always just watch the video and judge for yourself rather than having "one of the majors" put their spin on it for you.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I noted that this police department has a record of behaving irresponsibly and violently towards the community,especially black men ...

Lod already brought this up ... but this point has to be better supported. Could well be true, but you can't expect an adversary in debate to take the statement at face value.

In addition to the numbers, which have been everywhere, and the clips and quotes from many members of the black community, which have also been everywhere, there's also this.

Think about the culture that has to exist in law enforcement for that to happen. That's not one bad actor. That's a litany of terrible cops, from the guy who arrested the wrong man without a word, to the booking officer who imprisoned him after his innocence was established, to the "number" of cops who beat the #### out of him for no reason, to every cop responsible for holding him for several days after that on four counts of property damage because he transferred blood onto their uniforms while they were beating the #### out of an innocent man. The guy was there for days. Multiple cops filed signed complaints alleging the property damage, complaints that were presumably read by many other cops. How many of them must have known about it. And not one of them said "what the #### is wrong with us?" That's not just a bad apple or two. That's a rotten tree.

And here's the thing- the only reason we know that story is because it's so outrageous and because the victim eventually brought a civil lawsuit for damages. It's possible (probable?) that there are many similar stories that go unreported.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

This is the "source" we are talking about:

#1 How’d he get from there to there? #2 Because he ran, the police was still in the truck – cause he was like over the truck {crosstalk} #2 But him and the police was both in the truck, then he ran – the police got out and ran after him {crosstalk} #2 Then the next thing I know he doubled back toward him cus - the police had his gun drawn already on him – #1. Oh, the police got his gun #2 The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like – but he kept coming toward him {crosstalk} #2 Police fired shots – the next thing I know – the police was missing #1 The Police? #2 The Police shot him #1 Police? #2 The next thing I know … I’m thinking … the dude started running … (garbled something about “he took it from him”)

ya, there's absolutely no ambiguity or lack of clarity. lol

 

[Doug B]

CNN.com ran a similar story as the foxnews.com story.

That's really sad if true. Pathetic, actually.

I'm looking for an article like that on CNN. Haven't found it yet, but maybe the second video on this page is germane to the issue?

 

[Doug B]

Contradicted by the recorded account immediately after the incident. Someone who did not know they were being recorded at the time.

To be fair, I don't think this "witness in the background" video/audio has yet been authenticated. I do know that authorities are looking for those heard in the video.

 

[TheIronSheik]

I noted that this police department has a record of behaving irresponsibly and violently towards the community,especially black men ...

Lod already brought this up ... but this point has to be better supported. Could well be true, but you can't expect an adversary in debate to take the statement at face value.

In addition to the numbers, which have been everywhere, and the clips and quotes from many members of the black community, which have also been everywhere, there's also this.

Think about the culture that has to exist in law enforcement for that to happen. That's not one bad actor. That's a litany of terrible cops, from the guy who arrested the wrong man without a word, to the booking officer who imprisoned him after his innocence was established, to the "number" of cops who beat the #### out of him for no reason, to every cop responsible for holding him for several days after that on four counts of property damage because he transferred blood onto their uniforms while they were beating the #### out of an innocent man. The guy was there for days. Multiple cops filed signed complaints alleging the property damage, complaints that were presumably read by many other cops. How many of them must have known about it. And not one of them said "what the #### is wrong with us?" That's not just a bad apple or two. That's a rotten tree.

And here's the thing- the only reason we know that story is because it's so outrageous and because the victim eventually brought a civil lawsuit for damages. It's possible (probable?) that there are many similar stories that go unreported.

Again, this is another example of where you site one example, then end your post trying to connect dots that aren't there. But, luckily, you never actually say it. So you can always have the comeback of "When did I say that?" or "I've never said such things."

The officer in this shooting had an exemplary work history. Why not draw the conclusion that all cops must be as great as him?

 

[Todd Andrews]

Wilson gaining support:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-darren-wilson-support/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

im gonna say that even if Wilson was found totally at fault and guilty of killing Brown un- provoked he would still have a lot of supporters . Its common practice to vilify the victims of killings like this ,especially if they are black . Already fake pictures of Brown are circulating with him holding a gun ,it turns out a cop posted the pic and it was of some other kid who had killed his grandmother. Now there is a criminal record on the internet that isnt Browns but people claiming it is . Happened to treyvon martin and its happening now .

Kind of like how if wilson is exonerated you will still feel exactly how you do now?

if hes exonerated even tho Brown was unarmed and killed 30 feet away from Wilson then yes ,i will have an issue with it.

Then you are irrationally close minded. Mr. Brown may have been unarmed, but he was a substantial threat, due to his size. If he was charging at the officer, why would it be a problem for you that the officer fired to defend himself? I suspect that if you were in that situation, you would shoot as well.

man....one woman who claims she knows the cop calls a talk show and everyone immediately believes her 3rd hand version of what the cops wife supposedly told her....and IM close minded? I wasnt at the scene ....im going by 4 separate eye witness accounts for my opinion.

4 separate biased accounts.

Could you please explain their bias?

 

[msommer]

Of those 4, how many were discredited by the autopsy report?

The crime reporter for the St Louis Post-Dispatch has reported there are dozens of witnesses that corroborated the cop's version of events.

http://twitchy.com/2014/08/18/post-dispatch-reporter-more-than-a-dozen-witnesses-have-corroborated-cops-version-of-events/

The sooner people realize they were fed a pile of bull #### when this story first came out, the less they're going to have to backtrack down the road.

Christine Byers ✔ @ChristineDByers
Police sources tell me more than a dozen witnesses have corroborated cop's version of events in shooting #Ferguson

Really????????? Police sources ???? LMAO

So we have some unknown woman on the radio and un-named police sources as the proof M.Brown is guilty of what?

Being black in America

Being a thug, bully and dangerous.

Death penalty without trial by jury for that?

 

[lod01]

I noted that this police department has a record of behaving irresponsibly and violently towards the community,especially black men ...

Lod already brought this up ... but this point has to be better supported. Could well be true, but you can't expect an adversary in debate to take the statement at face value.

In addition to the numbers, which have been everywhere, and the clips and quotes from many members of the black community, which have also been everywhere, there's also this.

Nice try. Fail. From the article.

But however lax the department’s system and however contradictory the officers’ testimony, a federal magistrate ruled that the apparent perjury about the “property damage” charges was too minor to constitute a violation of due process and that Davis’ injuries were de minimis—too minor to warrant a finding of excessive force.

From another article on this case:



Davis pleaded guilty to two of the four destruction-of-property counts and a handful of traffic violations. He paid $3,000 in damages. He also sued the officers, in a case that was dismissed but is being appealed.

I'll say that this police force really could use jail cell cameras and in car systems as well, but so far you have nothing. You may want to give up because it's pretty easy to destroy any argument you come up with. Save yourself some embarrassment.

 

[msommer]

I noted that this police department has a record of behaving irresponsibly and violently towards the community,especially black men ...

Lod already brought this up ... but this point has to be better supported. Could well be true, but you can't expect an adversary in debate to take the statement at face value.

In addition to the numbers, which have been everywhere, and the clips and quotes from many members of the black community, which have also been everywhere, there's also this.

Think about the culture that has to exist in law enforcement for that to happen. That's not one bad actor. That's a litany of terrible cops, from the guy who arrested the wrong man without a word, to the booking officer who imprisoned him after his innocence was established, to the "number" of cops who beat the #### out of him for no reason, to every cop responsible for holding him for several days after that on four counts of property damage because he transferred blood onto their uniforms while they were beating the #### out of an innocent man. The guy was there for days. Multiple cops filed signed complaints alleging the property damage, complaints that were presumably read by many other cops. How many of them must have known about it. And not one of them said "what the #### is wrong with us?" That's not just a bad apple or two. That's a rotten tree.

And here's the thing- the only reason we know that story is because it's so outrageous and because the victim eventually brought a civil lawsuit for damages. It's possible (probable?) that there are many similar stories that go unreported.

Again, this is another example of where you site one example, then end your post trying to connect dots that aren't there. But, luckily, you never actually say it. So you can always have the comeback of "When did I say that?" or "I've never said such things."

The officer in this shooting had an exemplary work history. Why not draw the conclusion that all cops must be as great as him?

This exemplary work history was brought forward by his boss, the police chief of Ferguson, himself a pillar of integrity as evidenced by his handling of this case, in particular the open and forthcoming press conferences

If your sarcasm meter didn't twitch here, it's time to hand it in for service.

 

[tom22406]

I'm sure this has been posted before but it's worth a look again.Interactive map regarding what your local PD has purchased.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/15/us/surplus-military-equipment-map.html?_r=1#body_armor

Click on each category to break it down

 

[lod01]

Contradicted by the recorded account immediately after the incident. Someone who did not know they were being recorded at the time.

To be fair, I don't think this "witness in the background" video/audio has yet been authenticated. I do know that authorities are looking for those heard in the video.

I doubt that they find who said it. They will be hard pressed to find an eye witness to come forward to back the officers claim. Hell, the store owner got his store looted because of a video he did not release and would have rather not had made public. Imagine what happens to a citizen that goes against the rest of these 'eye witnesses'.

It's just luck that they were able to get a hold of this.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I noted that this police department has a record of behaving irresponsibly and violently towards the community,especially black men ...

Lod already brought this up ... but this point has to be better supported. Could well be true, but you can't expect an adversary in debate to take the statement at face value.

In addition to the numbers, which have been everywhere, and the clips and quotes from many members of the black community, which have also been everywhere, there's also this.

Think about the culture that has to exist in law enforcement for that to happen. That's not one bad actor. That's a litany of terrible cops, from the guy who arrested the wrong man without a word, to the booking officer who imprisoned him after his innocence was established, to the "number" of cops who beat the #### out of him for no reason, to every cop responsible for holding him for several days after that on four counts of property damage because he transferred blood onto their uniforms while they were beating the #### out of an innocent man. The guy was there for days. Multiple cops filed signed complaints alleging the property damage, complaints that were presumably read by many other cops. How many of them must have known about it. And not one of them said "what the #### is wrong with us?" That's not just a bad apple or two. That's a rotten tree.

And here's the thing- the only reason we know that story is because it's so outrageous and because the victim eventually brought a civil lawsuit for damages. It's possible (probable?) that there are many similar stories that go unreported.

Again, this is another example of where you site one example, then end your post trying to connect dots that aren't there. But, luckily, you never actually say it. So you can always have the comeback of "When did I say that?" or "I've never said such things."

The officer in this shooting had an exemplary work history. Why not draw the conclusion that all cops must be as great as him?

Here are some other accounts of the city's racial history, esp problems with the police's treatment of the black community

link

link

link (interview)

link (data- but note the conclusion that the disparity is racially driven given the higher rate of contraband found on whites at stops)

link (editorial)

As for the officer- we don't know anything about him or his account, but I'm not condemning him. All I said was that this extensive, well-documented history makes it seem a little less irrational to think a cop would shoot an innocent man with little to no reason. We all might think that sounds crazy, but it probably sounds a lot less crazy if you've lived through all the stuff documented here.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

I'm sure this has been posted before but it's worth a look again.Interactive map regarding what your local PD has purchased.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/15/us/surplus-military-equipment-map.html?_r=1#body_armor

Click on each category to break it down

My county sure is enamored with Assault Rifles. More so than the county that seats Newark, NJ.

 

[tom22406]

I'm sure this has been posted before but it's worth a look again.Interactive map regarding what your local PD has purchased.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/15/us/surplus-military-equipment-map.html?_r=1#body_armor

Click on each category to break it down

My county sure is enamored with Assault Rifles. More so than the county that seats Newark, NJ.

My county purchased 100 Assault rifles

 

[Doug B]

I'll say that this police force really could use jail cell cameras and in car systems as well, but so far you have nothing. You may want to give up because it's pretty easy to destroy any argument you come up with.

Disagree -- Tobias did a pretty good job supporting his point. Can't quite make the leap to "Wilson commited an obivous hate crime", but that wasn't the point he made.

...

One thing, though, Tobias: you had posted "the numbers are everywhere". I assumed you meant the "50 out of 53 Ferguson cops are white, while Ferguson is over 2/3 black". If those aren't the numbers you meant, then disregard the following quibble: the statement in red does not in and of itself establish that the Ferguson PD is collectively racist.

 

[timschochet]

Regarding witnesses: to be fair, I didn't believe in "John" from the Treyvon Martin case either, until he actually showed up at trial. So I was wrong about that, and I could very well be wrong about this.

But none of this really matters. I think Wilson is going to be indicted. I think he should be indicted, based on what we know. I think he likely committed a crime. I think there's is going to be a trial, and we're likely to be discussing it for months to come, just like Zimmerman. And in the end, I predict Wilson will be acquitted, because there's too much reasonable doubt, just like Zimmerman. And there will be justifiable anger, but no further rioting. Just like Zimmerman.

I also think that there will be repercussions for the terrible way the police have behaved here. Some people will resign or be fired. There will be lawsuits.

But the most important and saddest part of this whole affair is that it won't really change anything. Police departments all over this country will continue to stereotype black youths- not because the cops are evil, but because they honestly believe that it's the best way to fight crime. African-Americans will continue to feel victimized by the police, while refusing to acknowledge any responsibility for their problems. Liberals will continue to side with blacks in every situation, and blame the government, conservatives, the police, and themselves for the plight of so many African-Americans, but never the African-Americans themselves. Conservatives will continue to exonerate the police in every instance, blame blacks in every instance, and refuse to acknowledge that there is any racism at all, or that the American Dream doesn't always extend itself to certain minorities the same way that it does for white people.

And so we'll continue to have these sorts of incidents for decades to come. Rinse and repeat...

 

[Gary Coal Man]

This is the "source" we are talking about:

#1 How’d he get from there to there? #2 Because he ran, the police was still in the truck – cause he was like over the truck {crosstalk} #2 But him and the police was both in the truck, then he ran – the police got out and ran after him {crosstalk} #2 Then the next thing I know he doubled back toward him cus - the police had his gun drawn already on him –#1. Oh, the police got his gun #2 The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like – but he kept coming toward him {crosstalk} #2 Police fired shots – the next thing I know – the police was missing #1 The Police? #2 The Police shot him #1 Police? #2 The next thing I know … I’m thinking … the dude started running … (garbled something about “he took it from him”)

ya, there's absolutely no ambiguity or lack of clarity. lol

It's very ambiguous. Brown coming toward Wilson doesn't necessarily mean that Brown was rushing toward Wilson in an aggressive manner, but it may mean that.

The same goes for the autopsy results. They're ambiguous as to what Brown may have been doing at the time of the shooting. Both sides could potentially use those autopsy results to buttress their argument. Tim, called Benjamin Crump a liar for saying that the autopsy results support Crump's theory of the case, but the autopsy results may support a theory that Brown was shot from a distance with his hands up so, in that way, Crump wasn't lying.

 

[Doug B]

I doubt that they find who said it. They will be hard pressed to find an eye witness to come forward to back the officers claim. Hell, the store owner got his store looted because of a video he did not release and would have rather not had made public. Imagine what happens to a citizen that goes against the rest of these 'eye witnesses'.

It's just luck that they were able to get a hold of this.

Perhaps even without finding the speaker(s), the video can eventually be forensically verified with a high degree of confidence.

 

[TheIronSheik]

I noted that this police department has a record of behaving irresponsibly and violently towards the community,especially black men ...

Lod already brought this up ... but this point has to be better supported. Could well be true, but you can't expect an adversary in debate to take the statement at face value.

In addition to the numbers, which have been everywhere, and the clips and quotes from many members of the black community, which have also been everywhere, there's also this.

Think about the culture that has to exist in law enforcement for that to happen. That's not one bad actor. That's a litany of terrible cops, from the guy who arrested the wrong man without a word, to the booking officer who imprisoned him after his innocence was established, to the "number" of cops who beat the #### out of him for no reason, to every cop responsible for holding him for several days after that on four counts of property damage because he transferred blood onto their uniforms while they were beating the #### out of an innocent man. The guy was there for days. Multiple cops filed signed complaints alleging the property damage, complaints that were presumably read by many other cops. How many of them must have known about it. And not one of them said "what the #### is wrong with us?" That's not just a bad apple or two. That's a rotten tree.

And here's the thing- the only reason we know that story is because it's so outrageous and because the victim eventually brought a civil lawsuit for damages. It's possible (probable?) that there are many similar stories that go unreported.

Again, this is another example of where you site one example, then end your post trying to connect dots that aren't there. But, luckily, you never actually say it. So you can always have the comeback of "When did I say that?" or "I've never said such things."

The officer in this shooting had an exemplary work history. Why not draw the conclusion that all cops must be as great as him?

This exemplary work history was brought forward by his boss, the police chief of Ferguson, himself a pillar of integrity as evidenced by his handling of this case, in particular the open and forthcoming press conferences

If your sarcasm meter didn't twitch here, it's time to hand it in for service.

If you are going to immediately assume that police officers always lie, then the problem will never get better. Distrust works against both sides. Until that gap can be bridged, there is no chance for any community to ever come together. If communities are brought up to believe that the police are bad guys, that's how they will be perceived. If cops come out of the academy believing that all poor people are criminals, that's how they'll be treated. Both sides have to change here. Not just one.

People can scream all day that the police are racist, or that they treat the community poorly, but the reality is that somehow, they are going to have to put their faith in the police to make a change. Both sides are at fault here right now. And if we ever want it to change, both sides need to work on making it better.

 

[Henry Ford]

the notion of Brown charging an armed policeman seems like a real stretch to me.

So does the notion that he was running away. Were the cops firing those magical U turn bullets that go past the target, then turn around and enter the front side of a person who's running away?

Take a picture of your back with your webcam. What part of your arm is showing?

JMHO.. which is worth about the same of every other person in this thread. Not much

Why were his arms out to his side turned up like he was showing the cop his stigmata?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

My belief is the people on the street/protesters have already made their decision, and no amount of independent autopsies or investigations are going to be believed unless they come back in Brown's favor.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I'll say that this police force really could use jail cell cameras and in car systems as well, but so far you have nothing. You may want to give up because it's pretty easy to destroy any argument you come up with.

Disagree -- Tobias did a pretty good job supporting his point. Can't quite make the leap to "Wilson commited an obivous hate crime", but that wasn't the point he made.

...

One thing, though, Tobias: you had posted "the numbers are everywhere". I assumed you meant the "50 out of 53 Ferguson cops are white, while Ferguson is over 2/3 black". If those aren't the numbers you meant, then disregard the following quibble: the statement in red does not in and of itself establish that the Ferguson PD is collectively racist.

I meant the numbers in the links in my post above.

And as I said, I don't make that leap and don't think anyone should. I just don't think it's as crazy a conclusion as it would seem to us, a bunch of mostly upper middle class white guys who can (and do!) walk down the street smoking weed or carrying a weapon without the slightest concern that we'd get arrested for it.

 

[Henry Ford]

the notion of Brown charging an armed policeman seems like a real stretch to me.

So does the notion that he was running away. Were the cops firing those magical U turn bullets that go past the target, then turn around and enter the front side of a person who's running away?

Take a picture of your back with your webcam. What part of your arm is showing?

http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2014/08/michael-brown-autopsy-shot-six-times

Why are his arms turned up like that? Is that how you walk around? Or run at people?

 

[TheIronSheik]

I'm sure this has been posted before but it's worth a look again.Interactive map regarding what your local PD has purchased.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/15/us/surplus-military-equipment-map.html?_r=1#body_armor

Click on each category to break it down

My county sure is enamored with Assault Rifles. More so than the county that seats Newark, NJ.

My county purchased 100 Assault rifles

And by purchased, you mean got for free.

 

[ATC1]

Not sure if posted already, so sorry if Honda

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/breaking-report-po-darren-wilson-suffered-orbital-blowout-fracture-to-eye-socket-during-encounter-with-mike-brown/

Local St. Louis sources said Wilson suffered an “orbital blowout fracture to the eye socket.” This comes from a source within the Prosecuting Attorney’s office and confirmed by the St. Louis County Police.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

I'm sure this has been posted before but it's worth a look again.Interactive map regarding what your local PD has purchased.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/15/us/surplus-military-equipment-map.html?_r=1#body_armor

Click on each category to break it down

My county sure is enamored with Assault Rifles. More so than the county that seats Newark, NJ.

My county purchased 100 Assault rifles

176

16th-highest per capita county in the US.

No "urban" area other than some pocket Hispanic American communities.

What the ####?

Maybe its to protect all the Big Pharma in the area? But they have their own assault rifles.

 

[Henry Ford]

the notion of Brown charging an armed policeman seems like a real stretch to me.

So does the notion that he was running away. Were the cops firing those magical U turn bullets that go past the target, then turn around and enter the front side of a person who's running away?

thats absolutely true. But yesterday Henry Ford, among others, suggested some plausible alternatives. I have to say that:1. It seems unlikely to me that Wilson fired at Brown's back as Brown was running away. (If the first autopsy is accurate, then this DID NOT HAPPEN.

2. It seems even MORE unlikely to me that Brown ran away, turned around, and started charging an armed policeman. This sounds like the made up defense of Wilson and/or his supporters. Unless somebody finds a way to prove it, I think it's bs.

So I'm thinking there has to be a 3rd alternative. Maybe the kid ran away, the cop fired and missed (or winged him in the arm), the kid turned around and put his hands up, the cop fired the rest of the shots. That would match the 3 witnesses close enough. Or maybe something else happened.

the notion of Brown charging an armed policeman seems like a real stretch to me.

So does the notion that he was running away. Were the cops firing those magical U turn bullets that go past the target, then turn around and enter the front side of a person who's running away?

Take a picture of your back with your webcam. What part of your arm is showing?

Gimme a break. Mr. Brown was shot it the chest & head...the FRONT of his head.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/official-autopsy-michael-brown-had-marijuana-in-his-system-was-shot-6-times/2014/08/18/8c016ef8-26f4-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html

Brown, 18, had six gunshot wounds to the head and chest and was shot from the front

Which is consistent with his arm taking a hit or two from behind and him turning around, or him raising his arms in the air. What other position gives a clear shot at all of those parts of his arms? He obviously changed positions at times while being shot, the question is what positions he was in.

 

[TheIronSheik]

I'll say that this police force really could use jail cell cameras and in car systems as well, but so far you have nothing. You may want to give up because it's pretty easy to destroy any argument you come up with.

Disagree -- Tobias did a pretty good job supporting his point. Can't quite make the leap to "Wilson commited an obivous hate crime", but that wasn't the point he made.

...

One thing, though, Tobias: you had posted "the numbers are everywhere". I assumed you meant the "50 out of 53 Ferguson cops are white, while Ferguson is over 2/3 black". If those aren't the numbers you meant, then disregard the following quibble: the statement in red does not in and of itself establish that the Ferguson PD is collectively racist.

It most certainly doesn't. They have stated that they have actively been trying to fill positions with black people, but they couldn't find any applicants.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

My belief is the people on the street/protesters have already made their decision, and no amount of independent autopsies or investigations are going to be believed unless they come back in Brown's favor.

Probably true.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

the notion of Brown charging an armed policeman seems like a real stretch to me.

So does the notion that he was running away. Were the cops firing those magical U turn bullets that go past the target, then turn around and enter the front side of a person who's running away?

Take a picture of your back with your webcam. What part of your arm is showing?

http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2014/08/michael-brown-autopsy-shot-six-times

Why are his arms turned up like that? Is that how you walk around? Or run at people?

The better question is why is he naked and white?

 

[Henry Ford]

the notion of Brown charging an armed policeman seems like a real stretch to me.

So does the notion that he was running away. Were the cops firing those magical U turn bullets that go past the target, then turn around and enter the front side of a person who's running away?

Take a picture of your back with your webcam. What part of your arm is showing?

http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2014/08/michael-brown-autopsy-shot-six-times

Why are his arms turned up like that? Is that how you walk around? Or run at people?

The better question is why is he naked and white?

Excellent point. We've been lied to all along.

 

[avoiding injuries]

Contradicted by the recorded account immediately after the incident. Someone who did not know they were being recorded at the time.

To be fair, I don't think this "witness in the background" video/audio has yet been authenticated. I do know that authorities are looking for those heard in the video.

I doubt that they find who said it. They will be hard pressed to find an eye witness to come forward to back the officers claim. Hell, the store owner got his store looted because of a video he did not release and would have rather not had made public. Imagine what happens to a citizen that goes against the rest of these 'eye witnesses'.It's just luck that they were able to get a hold of this.

What are you trying to say...Snitches get stitches?

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

Not sure if posted already, so sorry if Honda

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/breaking-report-po-darren-wilson-suffered-orbital-blowout-fracture-to-eye-socket-during-encounter-with-mike-brown/

Local St. Louis sources said Wilson suffered an “orbital blowout fracture to the eye socket.” This comes from a source within the Prosecuting Attorney’s office and confirmed by the St. Louis County Police.

vague sources. I wonder if it's the wife's friend again?

 

[ATC1]

the notion of Brown charging an armed policeman seems like a real stretch to me.

So does the notion that he was running away. Were the cops firing those magical U turn bullets that go past the target, then turn around and enter the front side of a person who's running away?

thats absolutely true. But yesterday Henry Ford, among others, suggested some plausible alternatives. I have to say that:1. It seems unlikely to me that Wilson fired at Brown's back as Brown was running away. (If the first autopsy is accurate, then this DID NOT HAPPEN.

2. It seems even MORE unlikely to me that Brown ran away, turned around, and started charging an armed policeman. This sounds like the made up defense of Wilson and/or his supporters. Unless somebody finds a way to prove it, I think it's bs.

So I'm thinking there has to be a 3rd alternative. Maybe the kid ran away, the cop fired and missed (or winged him in the arm), the kid turned around and put his hands up, the cop fired the rest of the shots. That would match the 3 witnesses close enough. Or maybe something else happened.

the notion of Brown charging an armed policeman seems like a real stretch to me.

So does the notion that he was running away. Were the cops firing those magical U turn bullets that go past the target, then turn around and enter the front side of a person who's running away?

Take a picture of your back with your webcam. What part of your arm is showing?

Gimme a break. Mr. Brown was shot it the chest & head...the FRONT of his head.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/official-autopsy-michael-brown-had-marijuana-in-his-system-was-shot-6-times/2014/08/18/8c016ef8-26f4-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html

Brown, 18, had six gunshot wounds to the head and chest and was shot from the front

Which is consistent with his arm taking a hit or two from behind and him turning around, or him raising his arms in the air. What other position gives a clear shot at all of those parts of his arms? He obviously changed positions at times while being shot, the question is what positions he was in.

I thought it was very odd and plausible as well, until I saw the video of the guy describing Brown's actions just after he was shot.

 

[timschochet]

My belief is the people on the street/protesters have already made their decision, and no amount of independent autopsies or investigations are going to be believed unless they come back in Brown's favor.

Could very well be true. But doesn't this also apply to Jim11, johnnycakes, Iod01, avoiding injuries, and yourself?

 

[Henry Ford]

the notion of Brown charging an armed policeman seems like a real stretch to me.

So does the notion that he was running away. Were the cops firing those magical U turn bullets that go past the target, then turn around and enter the front side of a person who's running away?

thats absolutely true. But yesterday Henry Ford, among others, suggested some plausible alternatives. I have to say that:1. It seems unlikely to me that Wilson fired at Brown's back as Brown was running away. (If the first autopsy is accurate, then this DID NOT HAPPEN.

2. It seems even MORE unlikely to me that Brown ran away, turned around, and started charging an armed policeman. This sounds like the made up defense of Wilson and/or his supporters. Unless somebody finds a way to prove it, I think it's bs.

So I'm thinking there has to be a 3rd alternative. Maybe the kid ran away, the cop fired and missed (or winged him in the arm), the kid turned around and put his hands up, the cop fired the rest of the shots. That would match the 3 witnesses close enough. Or maybe something else happened.

the notion of Brown charging an armed policeman seems like a real stretch to me.

So does the notion that he was running away. Were the cops firing those magical U turn bullets that go past the target, then turn around and enter the front side of a person who's running away?

Take a picture of your back with your webcam. What part of your arm is showing?

Gimme a break. Mr. Brown was shot it the chest & head...the FRONT of his head.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/official-autopsy-michael-brown-had-marijuana-in-his-system-was-shot-6-times/2014/08/18/8c016ef8-26f4-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html

Brown, 18, had six gunshot wounds to the head and chest and was shot from the front

Which is consistent with his arm taking a hit or two from behind and him turning around, or him raising his arms in the air. What other position gives a clear shot at all of those parts of his arms? He obviously changed positions at times while being shot, the question is what positions he was in.

I thought it was very odd and plausible as well, until I saw the video of the guy describing Brown's actions just after he was shot.

I just want a full autopsy report, not the limited initial description of entry wounds. Some forensic pathologist has to put something together of what position the body would have to have been in during each shot based on height of shooter, etc. That I want to read.

There's no way he was standing the position that the autopsy "mark entry wounds here" diagram is in. Which is totally normal, that's just the position that they put a body in to make an examination - and that's what they call the "front" and "back" in a report. When you're talking about arm injuries in a dispute about being shot from the front or back, it's a poor way to label it.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I'll say that this police force really could use jail cell cameras and in car systems as well, but so far you have nothing. You may want to give up because it's pretty easy to destroy any argument you come up with.

Disagree -- Tobias did a pretty good job supporting his point. Can't quite make the leap to "Wilson commited an obivous hate crime", but that wasn't the point he made.

...

One thing, though, Tobias: you had posted "the numbers are everywhere". I assumed you meant the "50 out of 53 Ferguson cops are white, while Ferguson is over 2/3 black". If those aren't the numbers you meant, then disregard the following quibble: the statement in red does not in and of itself establish that the Ferguson PD is collectively racist.

It most certainly doesn't. They have stated that they have actively been trying to fill positions with black people, but they couldn't find any applicants.

I posted in regards to this earlier in the thread....Black officers across the nation are in high demand for the very reasons the black community want black officers...The black officer has his pick of job location....He is going to wisely pick a location that pays him the most. so essentially it becomes a bidding war.

 

[Sand]

What's sad is the people, some of whom are here, who are in the camp of those who rip the cops no matter what they do.

The cops stand by and watch and don't stop looting? It's the cops' fault.

The cops try to keep some order by not letting protesting escalate and get out of hand? It's the cops' fault.

They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I won't say they have handled this as well as they could have, but remember that they have been thrown into a very difficult situation and their lives are on the line. I think some forget that.

I guess the question I have here is if the store owner decided to sit in his store with an AK and picked off looters as they came into the store if he would have been arrested?

As a side note, in watching the news/events last night, it appears the media has chosen sides with the protesters and are currently fanning the flames of unrest.

The protests really should be over by now, IMHO. Their point re: Michael Brown has been made, and further demonstrations change nothing at all. Starting to smell like Occupy Wall Street.

So they're crapping en masse behind dumpsters now? Oh, the horrors!

 

[Fennis]

CNN.com ran a similar story as the foxnews.com story.

That's really sad if true. Pathetic, actually.

I'm looking for an article like that on CNN. Haven't found it yet, but maybe the second video on this page is germane to the issue?

I couldn't find it either. Maybe I am mistaken.

 

[johnnycakes]

I'm sure this has been posted before but it's worth a look again.Interactive map regarding what your local PD has purchased.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/15/us/surplus-military-equipment-map.html?_r=1#body_armor

Click on each category to break it down

Cool. I see Pima County, Arizona, purchased 455 night vision pieces, 282 body armor pieces, and 151 assault rifles. Maricopa County Arizona purchased 1,696 night vision pieces, 406 assault rifles, and 4 mine-resistant vehicles, but... they're probably drooling over Santa Barbara County California's purchase of 2 grenade launchers and 6 helicopters.

 

[avoiding injuries]

the notion of Brown charging an armed policeman seems like a real stretch to me.

So does the notion that he was running away. Were the cops firing those magical U turn bullets that go past the target, then turn around and enter the front side of a person who's running away?

Take a picture of your back with your webcam. What part of your arm is showing?

http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2014/08/michael-brown-autopsy-shot-six-times

Why are his arms turned up like that? Is that how you walk around? Or run at people?

You'll have to take your objection to the drawing up with the coroner's office. With my arms naturally at my side, only the forearm wound is not completely visible from my front. (It isn't from my back either)

Unless it's sports related, I don't run at people. Hard to say how I would hold my arms if I was charging someone who was firing a gun at me.

 

[tom22406]

CNN.com ran a similar story as the foxnews.com story.

That's really sad if true. Pathetic, actually.

I'm looking for an article like that on CNN. Haven't found it yet, but maybe the second video on this page is germane to the issue?

I couldn't find it either. Maybe I am mistaken.

CNN did a little of this on tv if that helps any.

 

[[icon]]

This thread is awesome...

They could have videotape of Brown charging Wilson with a chainsaw screaming "Im going to kill you" and a half dozen of you fools would be screaming that it was doctored

Subsequently they could have video of brown cowering in fear on his knees with Wilson blasting away and a half dozen of you fools would be screaming that it was doctored as well.

Both equally funny to me.

 

[Fennis]

Regarding witnesses: to be fair, I didn't believe in "John" from the Treyvon Martin case either, until he actually showed up at trial. So I was wrong about that, and I could very well be wrong about this.

But none of this really matters. I think Wilson is going to be indicted. I think he should be indicted, based on what we know. I think he likely committed a crime. I think there's is going to be a trial, and we're likely to be discussing it for months to come, just like Zimmerman. And in the end, I predict Wilson will be acquitted, because there's too much reasonable doubt, just like Zimmerman. And there will be justifiable anger, but no further rioting. Just like Zimmerman.

I also think that there will be repercussions for the terrible way the police have behaved here. Some people will resign or be fired. There will be lawsuits.

But the most important and saddest part of this whole affair is that it won't really change anything. Police departments all over this country will continue to stereotype black youths- not because the cops are evil, but because they honestly believe that it's the best way to fight crime. African-Americans will continue to feel victimized by the police, while refusing to acknowledge any responsibility for their problems. Liberals will continue to side with blacks in every situation, and blame the government, conservatives, the police, and themselves for the plight of so many African-Americans, but never the African-Americans themselves. Conservatives will continue to exonerate the police in every instance, blame blacks in every instance, and refuse to acknowledge that there is any racism at all, or that the American Dream doesn't always extend itself to certain minorities the same way that it does for white people.

And so we'll continue to have these sorts of incidents for decades to come. Rinse and repeat...

unless the feds step in there is no chance Wilson is indicted. The police force will never, ever, never, ever, never, ever, never, ever, never, ever let it happen.

 

[tom22406]

I'm sure this has been posted before but it's worth a look again.Interactive map regarding what your local PD has purchased.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/15/us/surplus-military-equipment-map.html?_r=1#body_armor

Click on each category to break it down

Cool. I see Pima County, Arizona, purchased 455 night vision pieces, 282 body armor pieces, and 151 assault rifles. Maricopa County Arizona purchased 1,696 night vision pieces, 406 assault rifles, and 4 mine-resistant vehicles, but... they're probably drooling over Santa Barbara County California's purchase of 2 grenade launchers and 6 helicopters.

Seems like California and Florida are loading up!