Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (1 Viewer)

[Sinn Fein]

Again, just based on the "damning" evidence there is more than enough to indict. I wonder if a normal suspect gets this kind of treatment from a prosecutor, or do they get the indictment first, and then figure out the rest of the story?

What is confusing - could you not take some of the facts here and create probable cause that the officer committed a crime? There is a reason for the saying: "A prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich." It is not a fair process, it does not require an in-depth look at the entire case - just show enough to establish probable cause, and let the petit jury weigh the totality of the evidence. You don't have to call all witness, just witnesses favorable to the prosecution. Seems like there were enough favorable witnesses that they could have called here, without calling any contradictory witnesses.

Honestly, the best way to have avoided most of the civil unrest would have been to get a quick indictment, then either work a very lenient plea deal, or go to trial and let the chips fall where they may, but with all of the evidence presented in open court, where everyone gets a chance to evaluate. From much of the black communities standpoint, a non-indictment here is an indictment on White America keeping black folk down.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Is it me, or does it appear that the prosecutor probably presented more "exculpatory" evidence to the grand jury than a typical prosecutor would present?

Almost seems like the prosecutor does not want to prosecute the case, so he is trying to give the grand jury an out here.

Again, just based on the "damning" evidence there is more than enough to indict. I wonder if a normal suspect gets this kind of treatment from a prosecutor, or do they get the indictment first, and then figure out the rest of the story?

How do you know the totality of the evidence presented to the grand jury?

Blessed with being omniscient

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Finally, a voice of reason?

http://bsun.md/1Fellr8

In a speech Saturday at Morgan State University, Louis Farrakhan predicted violence in Ferguson this week and castigated black leaders from fellow preachers to President Barack Obama for trying to pacify protesters who have a right to express outrage over police brutality.

"They know an explosion is going to come," the Nation of Islam leader said to cheers from the more than 2,000 people crowding the university's Murphy Fine Arts Center. "You leaders are the worst."

Tonight in Ferguson everyone is on edge. White folks ain't never been on edge after they've killed a black man. Tonight they're on edge.

- Louis Farrakhan

It's bad enough he says this stuff, but thousands of people cheering doesn't seem good.

I was thinking about his statement about white people being on edge. Are they really? I guess they would be if the mob was assembled in a white suburb, but if all they're going to do is destroy ferguson again, white people will just stay clear of it.Maybe they should move the riots to a white neighborhood.

The white neighborhoods are armed, to keep out the people of Ferguson.

I cannot imagine this happening in my city of 100,000 (68% White alone - 17.3% White Hispanics). Talk about national headlines.

The death count from dumb white people arming themselves as protection from riots has now exceeded the death count from the riots. link

So can we call it even and end all this non-sense?

The gene pool is certainly better off now.

 

[kentric]

I don't think there will be an indictment. I base it on just the information I have read.

We shall see.

Yup. And the information we have read has been selectively leaked to get the public braced for a decision not to indict. This has been more of a PR campaign than a search for justice from the get-go.

Oh. you're serious.

 

[Sand]

Wonder what the crime rate did during those periods?

I'd think that and housing prices probably coincided and/or contributed to that "white flight/black integration".

By all rights it should have plummeted as crime in general has dropped precipitously since the 70s.

Many black people do take control of their destiny and they do fine in America. Unfortunately, there are also many black people who don't take control of their own destiny and they don't do well. The former group's success suggests that it's not racism that's keeping the latter group down.

As someone who lives close to being out in the sticks in Alabama I can tell you we have lots of "country folk" who don't do well of their own volition.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Wonder what the crime rate did during those periods?I'd think that and housing prices probably coincided and/or contributed to that "white flight/black integration".

By all rights it should have plummeted as crime in general has dropped precipitously since the 70s.

Many black people do take control of their destiny and they do fine in America. Unfortunately, there are also many black people who don't take control of their own destiny and they don't do well. The former group's success suggests that it's not racism that's keeping the latter group down.

As someone who lives close to being out in the sticks in Alabama I can tell you we have lots of "country folk" who don't do well of their own volition.

This is absurd. It's like pointing to Nate Robinson and Isaiah Thomas and saying that their regular minutes in the NBA suggests that height doesn't play a role in NBA success.

Of course there's black people who don't do well of their own volition. There's lots of people in every minority group who don't do well of their own volition.

 

[Widbil83]

CNN is reporting the decision will be announced later today.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/24/justice/ferguson-grand-jury/index.html

 

[jonessed]

I assume more information will come about surrounding this case regardless of the grand jury's decision (e.g. forensic reports). Seems foolish to make up one's mind now without access to the same information the grand jury has in front of it.

Let's also keep in mind that there are two different issues involved here. There's the shooting itself, which none of us are well-placed to evaluate. And then there's the police response in the aftermath, which we all saw and should agree was deplorable. Even if the shooting was 100% justified, the police department would still deserve all sorts of criticism for the way that they handled journalists and peaceful protestors.

The prosecutor has stated that he is presenting all available evidence and will make the transcripts available should there be no indictment.

Will they be time stamped? I wonder how much stalling there was.

Transcripts are obviously time stamped.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Let's also keep in mind that there are two different issues involved here. There's the shooting itself, which none of us are well-placed to evaluate. And then there's the police response in the aftermath, which we all saw and should agree was deplorable. Even if the shooting was 100% justified, the police department would still deserve all sorts of criticism for the way that they handled journalists and peaceful protestors.

Issue 3: And then there's the looter and rioter response in the aftermath, which we all saw and should agree was deplorable. Even if the shooting was 100% unjustified, the looters and rioters would still deserve all sorts of criticism for the way that they threatened businesses and innocent civilians.

Is this even an issue? I've only seen one person argue on this forum argue that looting and violence are acceptable responses when things don't go their way.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I hope that wait until tomorrow...I'd really like to watch the football games tonight...Tomorrow I could devote my full attention to mayhem.

 

[McGarnicle]

Wonder what the crime rate did during those periods?

I'd think that and housing prices probably coincided and/or contributed to that "white flight/black integration".

By all rights it should have plummeted as crime in general has dropped precipitously since the 70s.

Many black people do take control of their destiny and they do fine in America. Unfortunately, there are also many black people who don't take control of their own destiny and they don't do well. The former group's success suggests that it's not racism that's keeping the latter group down.

As someone who lives close to being out in the sticks in Alabama I can tell you we have lots of "country folk" who don't do well of their own volition.

This is absurd. It's like pointing to Nate Robinson and Isaiah Thomas and saying that their regular minutes in the NBA suggests that height doesn't play a role in NBA success.

Of course there's there are black people who don't do well of their own volition. There's There are lots of people in every minority group who don't do well of their own volition.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Let's also keep in mind that there are two different issues involved here. There's the shooting itself, which none of us are well-placed to evaluate. And then there's the police response in the aftermath, which we all saw and should agree was deplorable. Even if the shooting was 100% justified, the police department would still deserve all sorts of criticism for the way that they handled journalists and peaceful protestors.

Issue 3: And then there's the looter and rioter response in the aftermath, which we all saw and should agree was deplorable. Even if the shooting was 100% unjustified, the looters and rioters would still deserve all sorts of criticism for the way that they threatened businesses and innocent civilians.

Is this even an issue? I've only seen one person argue on this forum argue that looting and violence are acceptable responses when things don't go their way.

The nearly all white male populace of the FFA is not a microcosm of the public at large. I've seen members of the usual suspect media outlets like Salon either condone or look the other way at the looting and rioting, and I've seen numerous bloggers and online commenters outright champion the rioters and looters.

Perhaps looting seems like a thing we can control. I refuse. I refuse to condemn the folks engaged in these acts, because I respect black rage. (Salon)

Blog: In Defense of the Ferguson Riots

Literally the first line of that Salon article you linked, after the title "I don't support the looting in Ferguson, Missouri."

Very few people champion looting and rioting- a small enough number that they can be ignored.

 

[Two Deep]

Are you guys still in here blaming the white people for the black peoples misbehavior?

 

[Henry Ford]

Are you guys still in here blaming the white people for the black peoples misbehavior?

Not white people in general, just Ditka specifically.

 

[Todem]

So CNN is interviewing peaceful protesters outside the court room and one of them simply said "if this were the other way around and Brown shot the Police Officer this all would have been wrapped up a long time ago"

Well....yeah of course. Because if you shoot a police officer your 99.99% going to be guilty of murder.

Who shoots and kills police officers on duty? Oh yeah, murderers.

Ever think they must carefully go over every piece of evidence and witness account to make sure you have enough reason to indict or not indict an officer of the law?

It seems crystal clear things are never changing in a lot of peoples minds who live in Ferguson. They have no faith in the law and feel the police are racist's and cold blooded killers and that's that.

 

[Two Deep]

Are you guys still in here blaming the white people for the black peoples misbehavior?

Not white people in general, just Ditka specifically.

??? Mike Ditka can say some crazy #### but?????

 

[Henry Ford]

Are you guys still in here blaming the white people for the black peoples misbehavior?

Not white people in general, just Ditka specifically.

??? Mike Ditka can say some crazy #### but?????

I know it seems like a lot to put on his shoulders, but I'm pretty sure it's all his fault.

 

[Doug B]

It seems crystal clear things are never changing in a lot of peoples minds who live in Ferguson. They have no faith in the law and feel the police are racist's and cold blooded killers and that's that.

From here, it looks like a hopeless situation, that's for sure. How can you credibly turn that around in less than a generation?

Time heals, I guess ... but nothing will get better anytime soon. And it's nowhere near as simple as having a majority black police force and having all-black elected officials.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

It seems crystal clear things are never changing in a lot of peoples minds who live in Ferguson. They have no faith in the law and feel the police are racist's and cold blooded killers and that's that.

From here, it looks like a hopeless situation, that's for sure. How can you credibly turn that around in less than a generation?

Time heals, I guess ... but nothing will get better anytime soon. And it's nowhere near as simple as having a majority black police force and having all-black elected officials.

I bet that would be a good start.

 

[Doug B]

I bet that would be a good start.

People may think that, but it does nothing to quell the most abhorrent of police abuses. That is, if New Orleans is any kind of a model.

 

[TobiasFunke]

s

Let's also keep in mind that there are two different issues involved here. There's the shooting itself, which none of us are well-placed to evaluate. And then there's the police response in the aftermath, which we all saw and should agree was deplorable. Even if the shooting was 100% justified, the police department would still deserve all sorts of criticism for the way that they handled journalists and peaceful protestors.

Issue 3: And then there's the looter and rioter response in the aftermath, which we all saw and should agree was deplorable. Even if the shooting was 100% unjustified, the looters and rioters would still deserve all sorts of criticism for the way that they threatened businesses and innocent civilians.

Is this even an issue? I've only seen one person argue on this forum argue that looting and violence are acceptable responses when things don't go their way.

The nearly all white male populace of the FFA is not a microcosm of the public at large. I've seen members of the usual suspect media outlets like Salon either condone or look the other way at the looting and rioting, and I've seen numerous bloggers and online commenters outright champion the rioters and looters.

Perhaps looting seems like a thing we can control. I refuse. I refuse to condemn the folks engaged in these acts, because I respect black rage. (Salon)

Blog: In Defense of the Ferguson Riots

Literally the first line of that Salon article you linked, after the title "I don't support the looting in Ferguson, Missouri."

... and then the author goes on to drop the line in the article where she essentially condones the looting. Nobody ever said that Salon writers were the model of intellectual consistency or integrity,

Very few people champion looting and rioting- a small enough number that they can be ignored.

Very true, but Ivan said he's only seen one person champion looting and rioting so I wanted to share what's the foremost example of championing rioting that I encountered. Interesting read. You should check it out.

So if something is statistically small enough we should completely ignore it? What's the ratio of total police encounters with the public vs. police encounters that end with a member of the public dead?

Is the foremost example of someone championing rioting that blog post? That's not meaningful. You can find blog posts making all sorts of awful, ridiculous arguments. Here's some examples.

I don't even know what do to with the bolded- it's such nonsense logic that I can't even respond to it.

 

[TheWalkmen]

I think I'm leaving town. My sources are telling me the FBI expects several deaths over the next few days.

 

[Doug B]

Is the foremost example of someone championing rioting that blog post? That's not meaningful.

Man, I hope you're right that the sentiments in that blog post are pretty much held by no one. Because if that's a majority view, there's no room for understanding or reconciliation at all. If race relations can be compared to a negotiation for the sake of an example, one side can't come to the table and say "You -- give it all up. Make all the changes. We offer nothing in return." That's what the Salon writer suggests to me, and that's not good faith. That's pure vitriol.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I think they will indict him...They have got to know that if they drag their feet this long and then come back without an indictment it will be an absolute bloodbath in the streets.

 

[Todem]

Jesus..listening to these people waiting outside....my god. It is convict him on 1st degree murder or bust.

In the meantime it seems autopsy reports and ballistics of Brown support the officers account of what happened.

I also don't believe he shot a man holding his hands up to surrender. I just don't. There was a clear struggle and this kid completely endangered himself by assaulting a police officer and reaching to take his gun. I think we have some people lying through their teeth or claiming to see what they want to see.

No indictment is forth coming. I gotta believe that. I also believe in law enforcement far more than someone who apparently shoplifted moments before this happened and I understand he was cited for jay walking and it was unrelated to the crime he had just committed but once the officer realized he had the suspect things went bad. This kid was no angel. He was shot 6 times. This officer feared for his own life and this was an act of heavy aggression towards an officer of the law.

Your going to get shot when you assault a police officer.

From Wikipedia:

At 11:51 a.m. on August 9, 2014, a convenience store security camera captured video of Brown taking a $48 box of cigars.[21] A police dispatcher reported a "stealing in progress" at 11:53, and at 11:57 dispatch said the suspect was wearing a red Cardinals hat, a white T-shirt, yellow socks, and khaki shorts, and was accompanied by another man. At noon, Wilson radioed to ask other officers searching for the thieves if they needed him and was told by dispatch that the suspects had disappeared.[22]

At 12:01 p.m., Wilson drove up to Brown and Johnson in the middle of Canfield Drive and ordered them to move off the street and onto the sidewalk. Wilson continued driving past the two men, but then backed up and stopped close to them,[13][23][24][25][26] after, according to Wilson,[27] realizing that Brown matched the description of the robbery suspect. Dispatch recordings indicate that Wilson called for backup at 12:02, saying "[unit] 21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car."[22]

A struggle then took place between Brown and Wilson through the window of the police SUV, a Chevrolet Tahoe.[28] Wilson's gun was fired twice during the struggle, with one bullet hitting Brown's arm while it was inside the vehicle.[28] Brown and Johnson fled and Johnson hid behind a car.[29] Wilson got out of the vehicle and pursued Brown. At some point, Wilson fired his gun again, with at least six shots striking Brown in the front,[13] fatally wounding him. Brown was unarmed.[28][30]

Less than 90 seconds passed from the time Wilson encountered Brown to the time of Brown's death.[3][31]

 

[TobiasFunke]

Is the foremost example of someone championing rioting that blog post? That's not meaningful.

Man, I hope you're right that the sentiments in that blog post are pretty much held by no one. Because if that's a majority view, there's no room for understanding or reconciliation at all. If race relations can be compared to a negotiation for the sake of an example, one side can't come to the table and say "You -- give it all up. Make all the changes. We offer nothing in return." That's what the Salon writer suggests to me, and that's not good faith. That's pure vitriol.

I was talking about the other link, but I really don't think you can compare race relations to a negotiation. For one thing, 99% of us want the exact same result.

 

[Ketamine Dreams]

I think they will indict him...They have got to know that if they drag their feet this long and then come back without an indictment it will be an absolute bloodbath in the streets.

You can't let the opinion of the ignorant and misguided sway the search for truth.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Jesus..listening to these people waiting outside....my god. It is convict him on 1st degree murder or bust.

In the meantime it seems autopsy reports and ballistics of Brown support the officers account of what happened.

I also don't believe he shot a man holding his hands up to surrender. I just don't. There was a clear struggle and this kid completely endangered himself by assaulting a police officer and reaching to take his gun. I think we have some people lying through their teeth or claiming to see what they want to see.

No indictment is forth coming. I gotta believe that. I also believe in law enforcement far more than someone who apparently shoplifted moments before this happened and I understand he was cited for jay walking and it was unrelated to the crime he had just committed but once the officer realized he had the suspect things went bad. This kid was no angel. He was shot 6 times. This officer feared for his own life and this was an act of heavy aggression towards an officer of the law.

Your going to get shot when you assault a police officer.

From Wikipedia:

At 11:51 a.m. on August 9, 2014, a convenience store security camera captured video of Brown taking a $48 box of cigars.[21] A police dispatcher reported a "stealing in progress" at 11:53, and at 11:57 dispatch said the suspect was wearing a red Cardinals hat, a white T-shirt, yellow socks, and khaki shorts, and was accompanied by another man. At noon, Wilson radioed to ask other officers searching for the thieves if they needed him and was told by dispatch that the suspects had disappeared.[22]

At 12:01 p.m., Wilson drove up to Brown and Johnson in the middle of Canfield Drive and ordered them to move off the street and onto the sidewalk. Wilson continued driving past the two men, but then backed up and stopped close to them,[13][23][24][25][26] after, according to Wilson,[27] realizing that Brown matched the description of the robbery suspect. Dispatch recordings indicate that Wilson called for backup at 12:02, saying "[unit] 21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car."[22]

A struggle then took place between Brown and Wilson through the window of the police SUV, a Chevrolet Tahoe.[28] Wilson's gun was fired twice during the struggle, with one bullet hitting Brown's arm while it was inside the vehicle.[28] Brown and Johnson fled and Johnson hid behind a car.[29] Wilson got out of the vehicle and pursued Brown. At some point, Wilson fired his gun again, with at least six shots striking Brown in the front,[13] fatally wounding him. Brown was unarmed.[28][30]

Less than 90 seconds passed from the time Wilson encountered Brown to the time of Brown's death.[3][31]

Most of this comes from the officer's own narrative. Footnote 28- the only cite here to the account of the "struggle"- is an article relaying the officer's account to investigators.

 

[Henry Ford]

Jesus..listening to these people waiting outside....my god. It is convict him on 1st degree murder or bust.

In the meantime it seems autopsy reports and ballistics of Brown support the officers account of what happened.

I also don't believe he shot a man holding his hands up to surrender. I just don't. There was a clear struggle and this kid completely endangered himself by assaulting a police officer and reaching to take his gun. I think we have some people lying through their teeth or claiming to see what they want to see.

No indictment is forth coming. I gotta believe that. I also believe in law enforcement far more than someone who apparently shoplifted moments before this happened and I understand he was cited for jay walking and it was unrelated to the crime he had just committed but once the officer realized he had the suspect things went bad. This kid was no angel. He was shot 6 times. This officer feared for his own life and this was an act of heavy aggression towards an officer of the law.

Your going to get shot when you assault a police officer.

From Wikipedia:

At 11:51 a.m. on August 9, 2014, a convenience store security camera captured video of Brown taking a $48 box of cigars.[21] A police dispatcher reported a "stealing in progress" at 11:53, and at 11:57 dispatch said the suspect was wearing a red Cardinals hat, a white T-shirt, yellow socks, and khaki shorts, and was accompanied by another man. At noon, Wilson radioed to ask other officers searching for the thieves if they needed him and was told by dispatch that the suspects had disappeared.[22]

At 12:01 p.m., Wilson drove up to Brown and Johnson in the middle of Canfield Drive and ordered them to move off the street and onto the sidewalk. Wilson continued driving past the two men, but then backed up and stopped close to them,[13][23][24][25][26] after, according to Wilson,[27] realizing that Brown matched the description of the robbery suspect. Dispatch recordings indicate that Wilson called for backup at 12:02, saying "[unit] 21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car."[22]

A struggle then took place between Brown and Wilson through the window of the police SUV, a Chevrolet Tahoe.[28] Wilson's gun was fired twice during the struggle, with one bullet hitting Brown's arm while it was inside the vehicle.[28] Brown and Johnson fled and Johnson hid behind a car.[29] Wilson got out of the vehicle and pursued Brown. At some point, Wilson fired his gun again, with at least six shots striking Brown in the front,[13] fatally wounding him. Brown was unarmed.[28][30]

Less than 90 seconds passed from the time Wilson encountered Brown to the time of Brown's death.[3][31]

Most of this comes from the officer's own narrative. Footnote 28- the only cite here to the account of the "struggle"- is an article relaying the officer's account to investigators.

This has really shaken my faith in Wikipedia.

 

[Ketamine Dreams]

Jesus..listening to these people waiting outside....my god. It is convict him on 1st degree murder or bust.

In the meantime it seems autopsy reports and ballistics of Brown support the officers account of what happened.

I also don't believe he shot a man holding his hands up to surrender. I just don't. There was a clear struggle and this kid completely endangered himself by assaulting a police officer and reaching to take his gun. I think we have some people lying through their teeth or claiming to see what they want to see.

No indictment is forth coming. I gotta believe that. I also believe in law enforcement far more than someone who apparently shoplifted moments before this happened and I understand he was cited for jay walking and it was unrelated to the crime he had just committed but once the officer realized he had the suspect things went bad. This kid was no angel. He was shot 6 times. This officer feared for his own life and this was an act of heavy aggression towards an officer of the law.

Your going to get shot when you assault a police officer.

From Wikipedia:

At 11:51 a.m. on August 9, 2014, a convenience store security camera captured video of Brown taking a $48 box of cigars.[21] A police dispatcher reported a "stealing in progress" at 11:53, and at 11:57 dispatch said the suspect was wearing a red Cardinals hat, a white T-shirt, yellow socks, and khaki shorts, and was accompanied by another man. At noon, Wilson radioed to ask other officers searching for the thieves if they needed him and was told by dispatch that the suspects had disappeared.[22]

At 12:01 p.m., Wilson drove up to Brown and Johnson in the middle of Canfield Drive and ordered them to move off the street and onto the sidewalk. Wilson continued driving past the two men, but then backed up and stopped close to them,[13][23][24][25][26] after, according to Wilson,[27] realizing that Brown matched the description of the robbery suspect. Dispatch recordings indicate that Wilson called for backup at 12:02, saying "[unit] 21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car."[22]

A struggle then took place between Brown and Wilson through the window of the police SUV, a Chevrolet Tahoe.[28] Wilson's gun was fired twice during the struggle, with one bullet hitting Brown's arm while it was inside the vehicle.[28] Brown and Johnson fled and Johnson hid behind a car.[29] Wilson got out of the vehicle and pursued Brown. At some point, Wilson fired his gun again, with at least six shots striking Brown in the front,[13] fatally wounding him. Brown was unarmed.[28][30]

Less than 90 seconds passed from the time Wilson encountered Brown to the time of Brown's death.[3][31]

Most of this comes from the officer's own narrative. Footnote 28- the only cite here to the account of the "struggle"- is an article relaying the officer's account to investigators.

Brown's blood was found inside the police vehicle.

Ballistics show a close range gunshot wound to Brown's hand.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/22/justice/ferguson-michael-brown-autopsy/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

Also, the autopsy did not support shots into Brown's back, nor did it conclude Brown had his hands raised in surrender

 

[TobiasFunke]

s

Let's also keep in mind that there are two different issues involved here. There's the shooting itself, which none of us are well-placed to evaluate. And then there's the police response in the aftermath, which we all saw and should agree was deplorable. Even if the shooting was 100% justified, the police department would still deserve all sorts of criticism for the way that they handled journalists and peaceful protestors.

Issue 3: And then there's the looter and rioter response in the aftermath, which we all saw and should agree was deplorable. Even if the shooting was 100% unjustified, the looters and rioters would still deserve all sorts of criticism for the way that they threatened businesses and innocent civilians.

Is this even an issue? I've only seen one person argue on this forum argue that looting and violence are acceptable responses when things don't go their way.

The nearly all white male populace of the FFA is not a microcosm of the public at large. I've seen members of the usual suspect media outlets like Salon either condone or look the other way at the looting and rioting, and I've seen numerous bloggers and online commenters outright champion the rioters and looters.

Perhaps looting seems like a thing we can control. I refuse. I refuse to condemn the folks engaged in these acts, because I respect black rage. (Salon)

Blog: In Defense of the Ferguson Riots

Literally the first line of that Salon article you linked, after the title "I don't support the looting in Ferguson, Missouri."

... and then the author goes on to drop the line in the article where she essentially condones the looting. Nobody ever said that Salon writers were the model of intellectual consistency or integrity,

Very few people champion looting and rioting- a small enough number that they can be ignored.

Very true, but Ivan said he's only seen one person champion looting and rioting so I wanted to share what's the foremost example of championing rioting that I encountered. Interesting read. You should check it out.

So if something is statistically small enough we should completely ignore it? What's the ratio of total police encounters with the public vs. police encounters that end with a member of the public dead?

Is the foremost example of someone championing rioting that blog post? That's not meaningful. You can find blog posts making all sorts of awful, ridiculous arguments. Here's some examples.

I don't even know what do to with the bolded- it's such nonsense logic that I can't even respond to it.

And yet it was your logic, so at least we can agree on your conculsion.

You probably should have said that we can ignore stupid positions based on those positions being stupid. You, instead, said that we can ignore matters based on statistical insignificance.

No, I said that when discussing how the population feels about issues we can ignore positions held by a statistically insignificant percentage of the population. Your attempt to extend it beyond that is really really silly.

 

[Sinn Fein]

I think I'm leaving town. My sources are telling me the FBI expects several deaths over the next few days.

Your sources looking at an actuary table?

 

[Two Deep]

I think they will indict him...They have got to know that if they drag their feet this long and then come back without an indictment it will be an absolute bloodbath in the streets.

You can't let the opinion of the ignorant and misguided sway the search for truth.

If it drags out to trial and then he got off it would be far worse. Bite the bullet now and get it over with.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Jesus..listening to these people waiting outside....my god. It is convict him on 1st degree murder or bust.

In the meantime it seems autopsy reports and ballistics of Brown support the officers account of what happened.

I also don't believe he shot a man holding his hands up to surrender. I just don't. There was a clear struggle and this kid completely endangered himself by assaulting a police officer and reaching to take his gun. I think we have some people lying through their teeth or claiming to see what they want to see.

No indictment is forth coming. I gotta believe that. I also believe in law enforcement far more than someone who apparently shoplifted moments before this happened and I understand he was cited for jay walking and it was unrelated to the crime he had just committed but once the officer realized he had the suspect things went bad. This kid was no angel. He was shot 6 times. This officer feared for his own life and this was an act of heavy aggression towards an officer of the law.

Your going to get shot when you assault a police officer.

From Wikipedia:

At 11:51 a.m. on August 9, 2014, a convenience store security camera captured video of Brown taking a $48 box of cigars.[21] A police dispatcher reported a "stealing in progress" at 11:53, and at 11:57 dispatch said the suspect was wearing a red Cardinals hat, a white T-shirt, yellow socks, and khaki shorts, and was accompanied by another man. At noon, Wilson radioed to ask other officers searching for the thieves if they needed him and was told by dispatch that the suspects had disappeared.[22]

At 12:01 p.m., Wilson drove up to Brown and Johnson in the middle of Canfield Drive and ordered them to move off the street and onto the sidewalk. Wilson continued driving past the two men, but then backed up and stopped close to them,[13][23][24][25][26] after, according to Wilson,[27] realizing that Brown matched the description of the robbery suspect. Dispatch recordings indicate that Wilson called for backup at 12:02, saying "[unit] 21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car."[22]

A struggle then took place between Brown and Wilson through the window of the police SUV, a Chevrolet Tahoe.[28] Wilson's gun was fired twice during the struggle, with one bullet hitting Brown's arm while it was inside the vehicle.[28] Brown and Johnson fled and Johnson hid behind a car.[29] Wilson got out of the vehicle and pursued Brown. At some point, Wilson fired his gun again, with at least six shots striking Brown in the front,[13] fatally wounding him. Brown was unarmed.[28][30]

Less than 90 seconds passed from the time Wilson encountered Brown to the time of Brown's death.[3][31]

Most of this comes from the officer's own narrative. Footnote 28- the only cite here to the account of the "struggle"- is an article relaying the officer's account to investigators.

Brown's blood was found inside the police vehicle.

Ballistics show a close range gunshot wound to Brown's hand.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/22/justice/ferguson-michael-brown-autopsy/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

Also, the autopsy did not support shots into Brown's back, nor did it conclude Brown had his hands raised in surrender

Yeah I suspect that there was some sort of struggle in the car, although as I said I think the grand jury stuff is being selectively leaked. Also, as the editor's note at the end of the St Louis Dispatch article linked there says, the forensic pathologist they used to reach those conclusions pretty much trashed the article as a misrepresentation.

 

[Doug B]

I was talking about the other link, but I really don't think you can compare race relations to a negotiation. For one thing, 99% of us want the exact same result.

What result do you have in mind? Sincerely, I am not sure what you're getting at.

But even if we take as given both sides want the same thing ... perhaps there can be polarizing differences over the means to achieve the desired result?

Note: it's bothersome to me that we even have to regard this as "sides". How do so many people get to feel so excluded from the main line of society? Is disposession an effect of the world, or an effect of the psyche?

 

[Ketamine Dreams]

Jesus..listening to these people waiting outside....my god. It is convict him on 1st degree murder or bust.

In the meantime it seems autopsy reports and ballistics of Brown support the officers account of what happened.

I also don't believe he shot a man holding his hands up to surrender. I just don't. There was a clear struggle and this kid completely endangered himself by assaulting a police officer and reaching to take his gun. I think we have some people lying through their teeth or claiming to see what they want to see.

No indictment is forth coming. I gotta believe that. I also believe in law enforcement far more than someone who apparently shoplifted moments before this happened and I understand he was cited for jay walking and it was unrelated to the crime he had just committed but once the officer realized he had the suspect things went bad. This kid was no angel. He was shot 6 times. This officer feared for his own life and this was an act of heavy aggression towards an officer of the law.

Your going to get shot when you assault a police officer.

From Wikipedia:

At 11:51 a.m. on August 9, 2014, a convenience store security camera captured video of Brown taking a $48 box of cigars.[21] A police dispatcher reported a "stealing in progress" at 11:53, and at 11:57 dispatch said the suspect was wearing a red Cardinals hat, a white T-shirt, yellow socks, and khaki shorts, and was accompanied by another man. At noon, Wilson radioed to ask other officers searching for the thieves if they needed him and was told by dispatch that the suspects had disappeared.[22]

At 12:01 p.m., Wilson drove up to Brown and Johnson in the middle of Canfield Drive and ordered them to move off the street and onto the sidewalk. Wilson continued driving past the two men, but then backed up and stopped close to them,[13][23][24][25][26] after, according to Wilson,[27] realizing that Brown matched the description of the robbery suspect. Dispatch recordings indicate that Wilson called for backup at 12:02, saying "[unit] 21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car."[22]

A struggle then took place between Brown and Wilson through the window of the police SUV, a Chevrolet Tahoe.[28] Wilson's gun was fired twice during the struggle, with one bullet hitting Brown's arm while it was inside the vehicle.[28] Brown and Johnson fled and Johnson hid behind a car.[29] Wilson got out of the vehicle and pursued Brown. At some point, Wilson fired his gun again, with at least six shots striking Brown in the front,[13] fatally wounding him. Brown was unarmed.[28][30]

Less than 90 seconds passed from the time Wilson encountered Brown to the time of Brown's death.[3][31]

Most of this comes from the officer's own narrative. Footnote 28- the only cite here to the account of the "struggle"- is an article relaying the officer's account to investigators.

Brown's blood was found inside the police vehicle.

Ballistics show a close range gunshot wound to Brown's hand.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/22/justice/ferguson-michael-brown-autopsy/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

Also, the autopsy did not support shots into Brown's back, nor did it conclude Brown had his hands raised in surrender

Yeah I suspect that there was some sort of struggle in the car, although as I said I think the grand jury stuff is being selectively leaked. Also, as the editor's note at the end of the St Louis Dispatch article linked there says, the forensic pathologist they used to reach those conclusions pretty much trashed the article as a misrepresentation.

Interesting... The close proximity hand wound is very telling IMO. Brown had just committed a felony and it appears he reached for the gun in a struggle with the officer. Then he was shot front to back in the torso shots.

 

[[icon]]

GET YOUR LOOT ON
GET YOUR LOOT ON
ERRYBODY GET YOUR MOTHER####IN LOOT ON!

 

[Ketamine Dreams]

Serious question: has any forensic evidence supported an indictment of Officer Wilson?

 

[Todem]

So we will never get the truth then will we. But you rather assume a police officer killed a young man in cold blood for no good reason? A kid getting killed is no joke. I am sure this was carefully looked at inside and out to come to whatever decision we get today.

In the meantime that story about the 12 year old shot dead who had the toy gun....my god that was a tragedy. A horrible thing. And nothing like this case. That was a baby.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

The prosecutor will formally announce at 5 p.m. ET that a decision has been reached by the grand jury. The announcement of the actual decision will come later, the sources said.

Per CNN's blog. I have a major problem with this if it's accurate. This is a major, national news story, and the public has a right to know in a timely manner what the grand jury has decided.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Serious question: has any forensic evidence supported an indictment of Officer Wilson?

Other than the bullet(s) from his gun hitting Brown at distance?

 

[Sinn Fein]

The prosecutor will formally announce at 5 p.m. ET that a decision has been reached by the grand jury. The announcement of the actual decision will come later, the sources said.

Per CNN's blog. I have a major problem with this if it's accurate. This is a major, national news story, and the public has a right to know in a timely manner what the grand jury has decided.

You can't handle the truth.

 

[Todem]

Serious question: has any forensic evidence supported an indictment of Officer Wilson?

No not according what was selectively told to us. Hence why I do not see it happening. He had reasonable cause to take this man down. 6 shots? No question in my mind he was coming at him with bad intentions. He had already struggled with him in the freaking patrol car!!! This is absurd IMO.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

The prosecutor will formally announce at 5 p.m. ET that a decision has been reached by the grand jury. The announcement of the actual decision will come later, the sources said.

Per CNN's blog. I have a major problem with this if it's accurate. This is a major, national news story, and the public has a right to know in a timely manner what the grand jury has decided.

They will probably make the announcement of the actual decision at 3:00 am.

 

[Todem]

Serious question: has any forensic evidence supported an indictment of Officer Wilson?

Other than the bullet(s) from his gun hitting Brown at distance?

Oh so that means the officer killed him...cold blood right? He should just wait for him to get right up on him and tackle him and take his gun and shoot him with it...right?

GTFOH.

 

[Fennis]

Jesus..listening to these people waiting outside....my god. It is convict him on 1st degree murder or bust.

In the meantime it seems autopsy reports and ballistics of Brown support the officers account of what happened.

I also don't believe he shot a man holding his hands up to surrender. I just don't. There was a clear struggle and this kid completely endangered himself by assaulting a police officer and reaching to take his gun. I think we have some people lying through their teeth or claiming to see what they want to see.

No indictment is forth coming. I gotta believe that. I also believe in law enforcement far more than someone who apparently shoplifted moments before this happened and I understand he was cited for jay walking and it was unrelated to the crime he had just committed but once the officer realized he had the suspect things went bad. This kid was no angel. He was shot 6 times. This officer feared for his own life and this was an act of heavy aggression towards an officer of the law.

Your going to get shot when you assault a police officer.

From Wikipedia:

At 11:51 a.m. on August 9, 2014, a convenience store security camera captured video of Brown taking a $48 box of cigars.[21] A police dispatcher reported a "stealing in progress" at 11:53, and at 11:57 dispatch said the suspect was wearing a red Cardinals hat, a white T-shirt, yellow socks, and khaki shorts, and was accompanied by another man. At noon, Wilson radioed to ask other officers searching for the thieves if they needed him and was told by dispatch that the suspects had disappeared.[22]

At 12:01 p.m., Wilson drove up to Brown and Johnson in the middle of Canfield Drive and ordered them to move off the street and onto the sidewalk. Wilson continued driving past the two men, but then backed up and stopped close to them,[13][23][24][25][26] after, according to Wilson,[27] realizing that Brown matched the description of the robbery suspect. Dispatch recordings indicate that Wilson called for backup at 12:02, saying "[unit] 21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car."[22]

A struggle then took place between Brown and Wilson through the window of the police SUV, a Chevrolet Tahoe.[28] Wilson's gun was fired twice during the struggle, with one bullet hitting Brown's arm while it was inside the vehicle.[28] Brown and Johnson fled and Johnson hid behind a car.[29] Wilson got out of the vehicle and pursued Brown. At some point, Wilson fired his gun again, with at least six shots striking Brown in the front,[13] fatally wounding him. Brown was unarmed.[28][30]

Less than 90 seconds passed from the time Wilson encountered Brown to the time of Brown's death.[3][31]

Most of this comes from the officer's own narrative. Footnote 28- the only cite here to the account of the "struggle"- is an article relaying the officer's account to investigators.

This has really shaken my faith in Wikipedia.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject, so you know you are getting the best possible information.- Michael Scott

 

[Todem]

Jesus..listening to these people waiting outside....my god. It is convict him on 1st degree murder or bust.

In the meantime it seems autopsy reports and ballistics of Brown support the officers account of what happened.

I also don't believe he shot a man holding his hands up to surrender. I just don't. There was a clear struggle and this kid completely endangered himself by assaulting a police officer and reaching to take his gun. I think we have some people lying through their teeth or claiming to see what they want to see.

No indictment is forth coming. I gotta believe that. I also believe in law enforcement far more than someone who apparently shoplifted moments before this happened and I understand he was cited for jay walking and it was unrelated to the crime he had just committed but once the officer realized he had the suspect things went bad. This kid was no angel. He was shot 6 times. This officer feared for his own life and this was an act of heavy aggression towards an officer of the law.

Your going to get shot when you assault a police officer.

From Wikipedia:

At 11:51 a.m. on August 9, 2014, a convenience store security camera captured video of Brown taking a $48 box of cigars.[21] A police dispatcher reported a "stealing in progress" at 11:53, and at 11:57 dispatch said the suspect was wearing a red Cardinals hat, a white T-shirt, yellow socks, and khaki shorts, and was accompanied by another man. At noon, Wilson radioed to ask other officers searching for the thieves if they needed him and was told by dispatch that the suspects had disappeared.[22]

At 12:01 p.m., Wilson drove up to Brown and Johnson in the middle of Canfield Drive and ordered them to move off the street and onto the sidewalk. Wilson continued driving past the two men, but then backed up and stopped close to them,[13][23][24][25][26] after, according to Wilson,[27] realizing that Brown matched the description of the robbery suspect. Dispatch recordings indicate that Wilson called for backup at 12:02, saying "[unit] 21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car."[22]

A struggle then took place between Brown and Wilson through the window of the police SUV, a Chevrolet Tahoe.[28] Wilson's gun was fired twice during the struggle, with one bullet hitting Brown's arm while it was inside the vehicle.[28] Brown and Johnson fled and Johnson hid behind a car.[29] Wilson got out of the vehicle and pursued Brown. At some point, Wilson fired his gun again, with at least six shots striking Brown in the front,[13] fatally wounding him. Brown was unarmed.[28][30]

Less than 90 seconds passed from the time Wilson encountered Brown to the time of Brown's death.[3][31]

Most of this comes from the officer's own narrative. Footnote 28- the only cite here to the account of the "struggle"- is an article relaying the officer's account to investigators.

This has really shaken my faith in Wikipedia.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject, so you know you are getting the best possible information.- Michael Scott

Or you can watch CNN...whats the difference?

 

[Fennis]

Jesus..listening to these people waiting outside....my god. It is convict him on 1st degree murder or bust.

In the meantime it seems autopsy reports and ballistics of Brown support the officers account of what happened.

I also don't believe he shot a man holding his hands up to surrender. I just don't. There was a clear struggle and this kid completely endangered himself by assaulting a police officer and reaching to take his gun. I think we have some people lying through their teeth or claiming to see what they want to see.

No indictment is forth coming. I gotta believe that. I also believe in law enforcement far more than someone who apparently shoplifted moments before this happened and I understand he was cited for jay walking and it was unrelated to the crime he had just committed but once the officer realized he had the suspect things went bad. This kid was no angel. He was shot 6 times. This officer feared for his own life and this was an act of heavy aggression towards an officer of the law.

Your going to get shot when you assault a police officer.

From Wikipedia:

At 11:51 a.m. on August 9, 2014, a convenience store security camera captured video of Brown taking a $48 box of cigars.[21] A police dispatcher reported a "stealing in progress" at 11:53, and at 11:57 dispatch said the suspect was wearing a red Cardinals hat, a white T-shirt, yellow socks, and khaki shorts, and was accompanied by another man. At noon, Wilson radioed to ask other officers searching for the thieves if they needed him and was told by dispatch that the suspects had disappeared.[22]

At 12:01 p.m., Wilson drove up to Brown and Johnson in the middle of Canfield Drive and ordered them to move off the street and onto the sidewalk. Wilson continued driving past the two men, but then backed up and stopped close to them,[13][23][24][25][26] after, according to Wilson,[27] realizing that Brown matched the description of the robbery suspect. Dispatch recordings indicate that Wilson called for backup at 12:02, saying "[unit] 21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car."[22]

A struggle then took place between Brown and Wilson through the window of the police SUV, a Chevrolet Tahoe.[28] Wilson's gun was fired twice during the struggle, with one bullet hitting Brown's arm while it was inside the vehicle.[28] Brown and Johnson fled and Johnson hid behind a car.[29] Wilson got out of the vehicle and pursued Brown. At some point, Wilson fired his gun again, with at least six shots striking Brown in the front,[13] fatally wounding him. Brown was unarmed.[28][30]

Less than 90 seconds passed from the time Wilson encountered Brown to the time of Brown's death.[3][31]

Most of this comes from the officer's own narrative. Footnote 28- the only cite here to the account of the "struggle"- is an article relaying the officer's account to investigators.

This has really shaken my faith in Wikipedia.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject, so you know you are getting the best possible information.- Michael Scott

Or you can watch CNN...whats the difference?

I don't know that Michael Scott said anything about CNN

 

[TobiasFunke]

So we will never get the truth then will we. But you rather assume a police officer killed a young man in cold blood for no good reason? A kid getting killed is no joke. I am sure this was carefully looked at inside and out to come to whatever decision we get today.

In the meantime that story about the 12 year old shot dead who had the toy gun....my god that was a tragedy. A horrible thing. And nothing like this case. That was a baby.

I don't think a police officer killed a young man in cold blood for no reason. But I'm really not all that concerned with it, to be honest. I think the much bigger story is the steady string of terrible things done by law enforcement at pretty much every juncture since that body hit the pavement- many of which deepened the distrust among the community they're supposed to serve.

 

[Ketamine Dreams]

Serious question: has any forensic evidence supported an indictment of Officer Wilson?

No not according what was selectively told to us. Hence why I do not see it happening. He had reasonable cause to take this man down. 6 shots? No question in my mind he was coming at him with bad intentions. He had already struggled with him in the freaking patrol car!!! This is absurd IMO.

I agree.

Serious question: has any forensic evidence supported an indictment of Officer Wilson?

Other than the bullet(s) from his gun hitting Brown at distance?

The shots to the front of the body are not necessarily indicative of foul play on the part of the officer.