Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (2 Viewers)

[Smack Tripper]

I think Henry Ford is right as a general rule, but Ivan is right in this instance. To paraphrase the Passover Seder, why is this riot different from all other riots? The answer is the lack of spontaneity. These looters, many if whom brought masks, knew what was going to happen.

"The black community" knew what was going to happen before Brown's body was removed from the street.

if we had a riot after every time a black person was shot by a white policeman, we would have to schedule these riots months in advance

 

[jonessed]

Well, this thread was a great way to out all the closet racists on the board.

You were actively supporting violence and rioting not long ago. You are really in no position to be name-calling.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Um. Me. In fact, it is legally justifiable.

As a citizen of this country am I only allowed to stand outside my store and say, "Pretty please, with cherry on top, don't loot my store?" while the police officers I pay taxes to support stand around a mile down the street so as not to "inflame" tensions?

If you were on a jury you are going to convict a business owner of shooting looters when you see dozens of businesses vandalized?

Absolutely I would.

So you believe that property owners have no right to protect their business during mass unrest and anarchy? Please tell me what you think the available remedies are for a business owner?

I do not know Missouri law, but I'd be surprised if a business owner had the right to use deadly force to protect his commercial property. But I could be wrong.

but ipso facto, if you are in front of said property, you do have a right to protect yourself.

Assuming the looters were coming after the shop owner and not just the property.

if an armed mob is encroaching upon me, I'm guessing I have a right to defend myself.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

You forgot to mention that maybe the black youth had an extensive rap sheet and may have been carrying a gun at the time of his arrest.

I also forgot the same thing about the white youth.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/racial-disparity-drug-use_n_3941346.html

"The race issue isn't just that the judge is going, 'Oh, black man, I'm gonna sentence you higher,'" she said. "The police go into low-income minority neighborhoods and that's where they make most of their drug arrests. If they arrest you, now you have a 'prior,' so if you plead or get arrested again, you're gonna have a higher sentence. There's a kind of cumulative effect."

I guess the police should stay out of these neighborhoods and mind their own business, just police the white neighborhoods .

 

[TobiasFunke]

What good did the looting do? That is what I am having a hard time understanding. I get the anger. Just don't understand the leap from being extremely angry to burning buildings, robbing businesses, etc. Did those business owners contribute to the perceived miscarriage of justice? So if Michael Brown really was an innocent victim of police brutality, the solution is to burn down the neighborhood of the very people who are oppressed? Insane.

I think the general issue here is the breakdown of the social contract. The reason we don't steal from people, or destroy other people's things is that we are in a social contract with them - we all live together and create a society. In the view of much of the low-income and/or African American community, the social contract is meaningless when the establishment (in many cases, if not most, the "white establishment") can gun down members of their community and face no repercussions.

As a result, if the social contract has broken down to the point where their lives are not protected or valued, they have no issue with breaching their part of the social contract by stealing, destroying, etc.

I think you're making two mistakes, or misrepresentations here. You're assuming that Brown was "gunned down" for no cause. Also, you say "and face no repercussions" - but wasn't there a trial?

No, there was not a trial. There was a grand jury hearing, usually a formality but handled in a very odd way by the prosecutor here. I suspect that the prosecutor didn't actually want to charge Wilson but knew that decision would result in a massive ####storm put directly at his feet. So he used the grand jury process as a way to partially deflect said ####storm.

 

[SIDA!]

Um. Me. In fact, it is legally justifiable.

As a citizen of this country am I only allowed to stand outside my store and say, "Pretty please, with cherry on top, don't loot my store?" while the police officers I pay taxes to support stand around a mile down the street so as not to "inflame" tensions?

If you were on a jury you are going to convict a business owner of shooting looters when you see dozens of businesses vandalized?

Absolutely I would.

So you believe that property owners have no right to protect their business during mass unrest and anarchy? Please tell me what you think the available remedies are for a business owner?

I do not know Missouri law, but I'd be surprised if a business owner had the right to use deadly force to protect his commercial property. But I could be wrong.

but ipso facto, if you are in front of said property, you do have a right to protect yourself.

Assuming the looters were coming after the shop owner and not just the property.

How would you even know and distinguish the difference? Do some looters wear signs saying they are prepared to kill while others wear signs that say they are only looking to steal your ####? I

 

[whoknew]

Don't get caught with a dime bag then. Simple.


Want me to be more sympathetic to the idea blacks are unequally targeted by cops? Start showing me examples of blacks who are doing nothing wrong yet still getting busted/harassed. In almost all of these cases we hear about, these individuals were in the process of breaking the law and/or had warrants out for previous crimes. Don't be a troublemaker and then try to cry about people are looking at you as a troublemaker.

Seriously? There's anecdotal evidence of that everywhere. You are familiar with the term "driving while black"?

 

[Todem]

Why is the black community rallying their cause around a thug? There are so many racial injustices in this country. Pick a better one to to rally around. Don't pick the guy who robs a store, assaults the store owner, punches a cop in the cop car, then bull rushes a cop. Then to go riot and burn innocent people's busineses. Makes you wonder.

This is what has me shaking my head in disbelief. Then you have some of these moronic tweets from Serena Williams, Magic Johnson, Pharell asking why no indictment? And so many more to come of course. People need to ####. Because they are sounding just a dumb as these rioters, looters and criminals running in the streets.

And most of the protesters were trying to be peaceful, but boy they were sounding ignorant....so freaking ignorant. They have no clue. They really don't. They had made up their minds the day it happened and nothing but a 1st or 2nd degree conviction would satisfy them. End of story.

This is what our country is coming too. Social Media and mobile devices driving and inciting riots, shaping definite verdicts and trying people in the court of public opinion, before an ounce of evidence is looked at and it just keeps getting worse and worse with each and every incident that is deemed worthy to go viral.

It's out of control.

There was a thorough and complete investigation into all the accounts, forensic evidence and circumstantial evidence surrounding this tragedy. Because it is tragic when a young man loses his life. No question and that is a fact. But it was concluded by a grand jury there were no grounds for any charges for a trial. The Officer acted within his rights as an officer of the law and took actions deemed appropriate for his situation. I don't believe for a moment he had any intentions of killing a young man that day. But unfortunately this young man took it upon himself to put his life in danger by assaulting a police officer.

The problem is we have a load of people who refuse to believe it was justified (based on color). What would have happened if the police officer was black?

Nothing. No news story, no riots.

Nothing. Just another black man shot dead.

But wait...stop the presses. This was a white police officer and some hoodlums say he had his hands raised to surrender and he was shot in the back!!!!, or slightly raised facing the officer, or he did not run at him or whatever the hell they wanted to lie about and it went viral. Then a lot of these so called eye witnesses retracted a lot of their accounts when other far more credible peoples accounts refuted their BS The fact is, he assaulted the officer and there was a major struggle that resulted in one gun shot and he fled the scene. The benefit of the doubt is going to go to an officer of the law not some 18 year old punk who just robbed a convenience store!!! And then you have witnesses who backed the police officers story and they were black!!!! But no that's not good enough....they must be uncle toms then. More likely though is, no one wants to hear it. Last night once the word got out of no trial, all these people were off to the races and crying foul and racism and all the same rhetoric we were hearing for months. And of course a small portion went on to riot, burn and loot there community. Forget all the evidence, all the interviews, all the forensic science and facts....FACTS!!! Forget all that.

SMFH.

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

if an armed mob is encroaching upon me, I'm guessing I have a right to defend myself.

This conversation is ridiculous. No business is worth a person's life, regardless of whether that life belongs to the owner or to the rioter.

 

[Henry Ford]

Don't get caught with a dime bag then. Simple.


Want me to be more sympathetic to the idea blacks are unequally targeted by cops? Start showing me examples of blacks who are doing nothing wrong yet still getting busted/harassed. In almost all of these cases we hear about, these individuals were in the process of breaking the law and/or had warrants out for previous crimes. Don't be a troublemaker and then try to cry about people are looking at you as a troublemaker.

Is "tazed and shot to death because he was looking for help after a car accident" an example?

 

[Henry Ford]

What good did the looting do? That is what I am having a hard time understanding. I get the anger. Just don't understand the leap from being extremely angry to burning buildings, robbing businesses, etc. Did those business owners contribute to the perceived miscarriage of justice? So if Michael Brown really was an innocent victim of police brutality, the solution is to burn down the neighborhood of the very people who are oppressed? Insane.

I think the general issue here is the breakdown of the social contract. The reason we don't steal from people, or destroy other people's things is that we are in a social contract with them - we all live together and create a society. In the view of much of the low-income and/or African American community, the social contract is meaningless when the establishment (in many cases, if not most, the "white establishment") can gun down members of their community and face no repercussions.

As a result, if the social contract has broken down to the point where their lives are not protected or valued, they have no issue with breaching their part of the social contract by stealing, destroying, etc.

I think you're making two mistakes, or misrepresentations here. You're assuming that Brown was "gunned down" for no cause. Also, you say "and face no repercussions" - but wasn't there a trial?

1. I'm not assuming anything. I'm explaining a mindset I don't personally have.

2. No, there wasn't a trial. That's the problem.

 

[Smack Tripper]

if an armed mob is encroaching upon me, I'm guessing I have a right to defend myself.

This conversation is ridiculous. No business is worth a person's life, regardless of whether that life belongs to the owner or to the rioter.

I agree... and I have questioned the mindset of those who are so enraged over this looting,as its isolated and nominal.

With the exception of being a small business owner. If I'm standing outside, armed to the teeth, and you choose to come into my store, I have no sympathy for the stupid.

Burn the Applebees down, not the indian grocery who's the only guy willing to open a shop in your dopey neighborhood

 

[Slapdash]

How stupid is this grand jury to announce this at 10PM?

Not stupid at all. Would you rather have them announce it at noon when most of the residents are at work and kids at school? Imagine trying to get home to your family or get kids out of school with all of this mess going on.

Announcing late meant that the majority of the law abiding adults and children were safely home. Wise move IMO.

I think it is less likely there is this amount of shenanigans if they announced this in the morning while most of these people are asleep.

 

[Mr Two Cents]

Some speculation from politicos this morning that these events will help shape the Republican Presidential race that starts next year. At least one or more of the candidates will campaign primarily on law and order, ala Nixon in 1968.

This will just be a blip on the radar by then. Hell, by next week things should be over.

Think you are warm, the visuals, hate and disgust will last decades. Very good strategy.

 

[saintfool]

i haven't looked at the evidence. I plan on it. So far though as a general rule, liberals tend to believe the evidence points toward Brown being wrongfully killed, and conservatives believe it was justified .

So common sense (guy steals cigars, is considered a suspect, is confronted, goes after officer's gun and is shot in the head), evades a liberal and is a staple of a conservative.

IIRC, that wasn't why PO Wilson confronted the Brown. he didn't know anything about the theft at the time.

Not true. That myth has been dispelled.

The record shows that the officer received word of a suspect matching Brown's description.

I'm sorry but there seems to be confusion and conflicting reports. I only remember what the Ferguson Police Chief said after the shooting:

Ferguson, Missouri (CNN) -- The Ferguson police officer who shot Michael Brown didn't stop him because he was suspected in a convenience-store robbery, but because he was "walking down the middle of the street blocking traffic," the city's police chief said Friday.

Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson -- hours after documents came out labeling the 18-year-old Brown as the "primary suspect" in the store theft -- told reporters the "robbery does not relate to the initial contact between the officer and Michael Brown.

 

[mcintyre1]

i haven't looked at the evidence. I plan on it. So far though as a general rule, liberals tend to believe the evidence points toward Brown being wrongfully killed, and conservatives believe it was justified .

So common sense (guy steals cigars, is considered a suspect, is confronted, goes after officer's gun and is shot in the head), evades a liberal and is a staple of a conservative.

IIRC, that wasn't why PO Wilson confronted the Brown. he didn't know anything about the theft at the time.

Not true. That myth has been dispelled.

The record shows that the officer received word of a suspect matching Brown's description.

The official police report from the Grand Jury evidence also indicates that Wilson wasn't pursuing Brown as a suspect to that crime.

 

[mcintyre1]

I think Henry Ford is right as a general rule, but Ivan is right in this instance. To paraphrase the Passover Seder, why is this riot different from all other riots? The answer is the lack of spontaneity. These looters, many if whom brought masks, knew what was going to happen.

"The black community" knew what was going to happen before Brown's body was removed from the street.

if we had a riot after every time a black person was shot by a white policeman, we would have to schedule these riots months in advance

Isn't that kind of the point? This was a tipping point for the community.

 

[jonessed]

if an armed mob is encroaching upon me, I'm guessing I have a right to defend myself.

This conversation is ridiculous. No business is worth a person's life, regardless of whether that life belongs to the owner or to the rioter.

If I put my life savings and work into a small business I'm defending it. That's much different than a Wal-Mart or a McDonalds.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Don't get caught with a dime bag then. Simple.


Want me to be more sympathetic to the idea blacks are unequally targeted by cops? Start showing me examples of blacks who are doing nothing wrong yet still getting busted/harassed. In almost all of these cases we hear about, these individuals were in the process of breaking the law and/or had warrants out for previous crimes. Don't be a troublemaker and then try to cry about people are looking at you as a troublemaker.

Seriously? There's anecdotal evidence of that everywhere. You are familiar with the term "driving while black"?

I'm familiar with the term Big Foot as well. We have terms for lots of things that don't exist and we have lots of people that believe in the imaginary.

 

[Todem]

Don't get caught with a dime bag then. Simple.


Want me to be more sympathetic to the idea blacks are unequally targeted by cops? Start showing me examples of blacks who are doing nothing wrong yet still getting busted/harassed. In almost all of these cases we hear about, these individuals were in the process of breaking the law and/or had warrants out for previous crimes. Don't be a troublemaker and then try to cry about people are looking at you as a troublemaker.

Seriously? There's anecdotal evidence of that everywhere. You are familiar with the term "driving while black"?

No question racial profiling goes on. But don't use this case as an example.

Please don't. The fact the black community is hanging there hat on a case like this shows a complete lack of any intelligence and common sense. This kid did things that led to his untimely demise.

HE PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED A POLICE OFFICER. It will never end well when you try to do that. Especially when you are far larger than said officer.

 

[Slapdash]

i haven't looked at the evidence. I plan on it. So far though as a general rule, liberals tend to believe the evidence points toward Brown being wrongfully killed, and conservatives believe it was justified .

So common sense (guy steals cigars, is considered a suspect, is confronted, goes after officer's gun and is shot in the head), evades a liberal and is a staple of a conservative.

IIRC, that wasn't why PO Wilson confronted the Brown. he didn't know anything about the theft at the time.

Not true. That myth has been dispelled.

The record shows that the officer received word of a suspect matching Brown's description.

I'm sorry but there seems to be confusion and conflicting reports. I only remember what the Ferguson Police Chief said after the shooting:

Ferguson, Missouri (CNN) -- The Ferguson police officer who shot Michael Brown didn't stop him because he was suspected in a convenience-store robbery, but because he was "walking down the middle of the street blocking traffic," the city's police chief said Friday.

Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson -- hours after documents came out labeling the 18-year-old Brown as the "primary suspect" in the store theft -- told reporters the "robbery does not relate to the initial contact between the officer and Michael Brown.

Are you suggesting that Wilson modified his story to make himself look better? Pretty sure cops never do that.

 

[saintfool]

Don't get caught with a dime bag then. Simple.


Want me to be more sympathetic to the idea blacks are unequally targeted by cops? Start showing me examples of blacks who are doing nothing wrong yet still getting busted/harassed. In almost all of these cases we hear about, these individuals were in the process of breaking the law and/or had warrants out for previous crimes. Don't be a troublemaker and then try to cry about people are looking at you as a troublemaker.

Seriously? There's anecdotal evidence of that everywhere. You are familiar with the term "driving while black"?

I'm familiar with the term Big Foot as well. We have terms for lots of things that don't exist and we have lots of people that believe in the imaginary.

Right! Like Global Warming! There can't be global warming if I have an inch of snow on my lawn.

 

[lod01]

i haven't looked at the evidence. I plan on it. So far though as a general rule, liberals tend to believe the evidence points toward Brown being wrongfully killed, and conservatives believe it was justified .

So common sense (guy steals cigars, is considered a suspect, is confronted, goes after officer's gun and is shot in the head), evades a liberal and is a staple of a conservative.

IIRC, that wasn't why PO Wilson confronted the Brown. he didn't know anything about the theft at the time.

Educate yourself. He did in fact know about it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/11/25/why-darren-wilson-said-he-killed-michael-brown/

On a hot August day, Wilson drove down a street and spotted two young black men walking down the middle of the road. One wore a black shirt. The other held cigarillos. The details of a robbery earlier that day, blared out on a police radio, clicked into Wilson’s head. Were they suspects?

 

[jonessed]

Don't get caught with a dime bag then. Simple.

Want me to be more sympathetic to the idea blacks are unequally targeted by cops? Start showing me examples of blacks who are doing nothing wrong yet still getting busted/harassed. In almost all of these cases we hear about, these individuals were in the process of breaking the law and/or had warrants out for previous crimes. Don't be a troublemaker and then try to cry about people are looking at you as a troublemaker.

Seriously? There's anecdotal evidence of that everywhere. You are familiar with the term "driving while black"?

I'm familiar with the term Big Foot as well. We have terms for lots of things that don't exist and we have lots of people that believe in the imaginary.

Right! Like Global Warming! There can't be global warming if I have an inch of snow on my lawn.

You need to stop taking analogy lessons from Tim.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

i haven't looked at the evidence. I plan on it. So far though as a general rule, liberals tend to believe the evidence points toward Brown being wrongfully killed, and conservatives believe it was justified .

So common sense (guy steals cigars, is considered a suspect, is confronted, goes after officer's gun and is shot in the head), evades a liberal and is a staple of a conservative.

IIRC, that wasn't why PO Wilson confronted the Brown. he didn't know anything about the theft at the time.

Not true. That myth has been dispelled.

The record shows that the officer received word of a suspect matching Brown's description.

I'm sorry but there seems to be confusion and conflicting reports. I only remember what the Ferguson Police Chief said after the shooting:

Ferguson, Missouri (CNN) -- The Ferguson police officer who shot Michael Brown didn't stop him because he was suspected in a convenience-store robbery, but because he was "walking down the middle of the street blocking traffic," the city's police chief said Friday.

Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson -- hours after documents came out labeling the 18-year-old Brown as the "primary suspect" in the store theft -- told reporters the "robbery does not relate to the initial contact between the officer and Michael Brown.

Are you suggesting that Wilson modified his story to make himself look better? Pretty sure cops never do that.

If I heard correctly....These are all true statements....Wilson initially stopped to tell Brown and his buddy to get out of the road, and then realized he fit the description of the suspect in the store robbery and called for backup...Is that not correct?

 

[Todem]

What good did the looting do? That is what I am having a hard time understanding. I get the anger. Just don't understand the leap from being extremely angry to burning buildings, robbing businesses, etc. Did those business owners contribute to the perceived miscarriage of justice? So if Michael Brown really was an innocent victim of police brutality, the solution is to burn down the neighborhood of the very people who are oppressed? Insane.

I think the general issue here is the breakdown of the social contract. The reason we don't steal from people, or destroy other people's things is that we are in a social contract with them - we all live together and create a society. In the view of much of the low-income and/or African American community, the social contract is meaningless when the establishment (in many cases, if not most, the "white establishment") can gun down members of their community and face no repercussions.

As a result, if the social contract has broken down to the point where their lives are not protected or valued, they have no issue with breaching their part of the social contract by stealing, destroying, etc.

I think you're making two mistakes, or misrepresentations here. You're assuming that Brown was "gunned down" for no cause. Also, you say "and face no repercussions" - but wasn't there a trial?

1. I'm not assuming anything. I'm explaining a mindset I don't personally have.

2. No, there wasn't a trial. That's the problem.

Sorry Henry....there was no grounds for a trial here. A grand Jury came to that conclusion after reviewing everything.

That is the law, that is our system. It is not going to change. If your going to try every police officer for every time they have to shoot and kill a suspected criminal you will never have law enforcement.

They are given certain rights as officers of the law to act accordingly if circumstances present themselves that they had little to no choice to use their fire arm. We are asking men and woman to protect and serve. In order for them to do that they must have some amount of rights to defend their own lives as well.

All of the evidence pointed that this officer acted within his rights that we as tax payers give our men and woman of the police the right use. There was no evidence he abused that right to use deadly force to protect himself.

What is so hard to understand.

 

[fantasycurse42]

What good did the looting do? That is what I am having a hard time understanding. I get the anger. Just don't understand the leap from being extremely angry to burning buildings, robbing businesses, etc. Did those business owners contribute to the perceived miscarriage of justice? So if Michael Brown really was an innocent victim of police brutality, the solution is to burn down the neighborhood of the very people who are oppressed? Insane.

I think the general issue here is the breakdown of the social contract. The reason we don't steal from people, or destroy other people's things is that we are in a social contract with them - we all live together and create a society. In the view of much of the low-income and/or African American community, the social contract is meaningless when the establishment (in many cases, if not most, the "white establishment") can gun down members of their community and face no repercussions.

As a result, if the social contract has broken down to the point where their lives are not protected or valued, they have no issue with breaching their part of the social contract by stealing, destroying, etc.

I think you're making two mistakes, or misrepresentations here. You're assuming that Brown was "gunned down" for no cause. Also, you say "and face no repercussions" - but wasn't there a trial?

No, there was not a trial. There was a grand jury hearing, usually a formality but handled in a very odd way by the prosecutor here. I suspect that the prosecutor didn't actually want to charge Wilson but knew that decision would result in a massive ####storm put directly at his feet. So he used the grand jury process as a way to partially deflect said ####storm.

If a grand jury didn't indict, there is zero chance a conviction would've happened as they would need substantially more evidence to convict during a criminal trial. They didn't even find probable cause to go to that next step.

I feel like a lot of people are just disregarding all of the evidence the prosecutor laid out.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

IK - great job. Jets joke was awesome. I had some thoughts that ended up being long winded but no one wants or cares to hear my opinion. I can only pray that some good comes out of these events. I have no idea what that good is as it seems that all this is doing is reenforcing stereotypes that make it impossible to break down walls to communication, but I can hope.

 

[SIDA!]

Saintsfool/McIntyre:

Maybe I am mistaken. But I could have sworn the prosecutor stated last night that Wilson had received the call about a suspected burglary while he was attending to a child in distress call. So, I am confused now as to what the actual sequence of events was in this situation.

 

[Todem]

i haven't looked at the evidence. I plan on it. So far though as a general rule, liberals tend to believe the evidence points toward Brown being wrongfully killed, and conservatives believe it was justified .

So common sense (guy steals cigars, is considered a suspect, is confronted, goes after officer's gun and is shot in the head), evades a liberal and is a staple of a conservative.

IIRC, that wasn't why PO Wilson confronted the Brown. he didn't know anything about the theft at the time.

Not true. That myth has been dispelled.

The record shows that the officer received word of a suspect matching Brown's description.

I'm sorry but there seems to be confusion and conflicting reports. I only remember what the Ferguson Police Chief said after the shooting:

Ferguson, Missouri (CNN) -- The Ferguson police officer who shot Michael Brown didn't stop him because he was suspected in a convenience-store robbery, but because he was "walking down the middle of the street blocking traffic," the city's police chief said Friday.

Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson -- hours after documents came out labeling the 18-year-old Brown as the "primary suspect" in the store theft -- told reporters the "robbery does not relate to the initial contact between the officer and Michael Brown.

Are you suggesting that Wilson modified his story to make himself look better? Pretty sure cops never do that.

People are reaching...reaching for anything to show it was racial profiling and this Police officer murdered an "unarmed" black male. I love how CNN keeps bloding that unarmed paart...like your life can't be threatened by a far larger male who can over power you and kill you by grabbing your weapon or bashing your skull in the ground because you did not do anything to stop him running at you. And forget that the suspect had already tried assaulting you while you were vulnerable sitting in a car.

This is the wrong case to prove any point. Just so wrong. It defies common sense in the human species.

 

[Henry Ford]

Sorry Henry....there was no grounds for a trial here. A grand Jury came to that conclusion after reviewing everything.


That is the law, that is our system. It is not going to change. If your going to try every police officer for every time they have to shoot and kill a suspected criminal you will never have law enforcement.

They are given certain rights as officers of the law to act accordingly if circumstances present themselves that they had little to no choice to use their fire arm. We are asking men and woman to protect and serve. In order for them to do that they must have some amount of rights to defend their own lives as well.

All of the evidence pointed that this officer acted within his rights that we as tax payers give our men and woman of the police the right use. There was no evidence he abused that right to use deadly force to protect himself.

What is so hard to understand.

None of it is hard to understand. Especially if you understand the role of a prosecutor in a grand jury situation, and the difference between what happened here and the way a grand jury is usually run. I appreciate your perspective on this, but I believe it to be a simplistic and flawed understanding of the legal process and of the concept of "no evidence."

 

[TobiasFunke]

Don't get caught with a dime bag then. Simple.


Want me to be more sympathetic to the idea blacks are unequally targeted by cops? Start showing me examples of blacks who are doing nothing wrong yet still getting busted/harassed. In almost all of these cases we hear about, these individuals were in the process of breaking the law and/or had warrants out for previous crimes. Don't be a troublemaker and then try to cry about people are looking at you as a troublemaker.

Seriously? There's anecdotal evidence of that everywhere. You are familiar with the term "driving while black"?

No question racial profiling goes on. But don't use this case as an example.

Please don't. The fact the black community is hanging there hat on a case like this shows a complete lack of any intelligence and common sense. This kid did things that led to his untimely demise.

HE PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED A POLICE OFFICER. It will never end well when you try to do that. Especially when you are far larger than said officer.

Officer Wilson is 6'4 210 lbs, the same height as Brown, and was an armed police officer who presumably had some training in fighting/subduing suspects without the use of a weapon. Brown was just fatter than him- that's literally the only "advantage" he would have had in a fight. The narrative that Wilson was some sort of tiny helpless weakling that Brown could easily pummel is just one of many piles of that people are lapping up without bothering to check the facts.

Also, maybe don't run around calling other people "dumb" and "so freaking ignorant" until you sort out the difference between "there" and "their."

 

[Todem]

Saintsfool/McIntyre:

Maybe I am mistaken. But I could have sworn the prosecutor stated last night that Wilson had received the call about a suspected burglary while he was attending to a child in distress call. So, I am confused now as to what the actual sequence of events was in this situation.

He did. Once he felt he had a suspect that matched the ID of the robbery he called in for backup. But the initial contact was to tell them to stop walking in the street and get on the side walk. And then things went from there. He called in for backup after feeling he had a positive match to the description of the robbery suspects. And then boom the confrontation began.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Sorry Henry....there was no grounds for a trial here. A grand Jury came to that conclusion after reviewing everything.


That is the law, that is our system. It is not going to change. If your going to try every police officer for every time they have to shoot and kill a suspected criminal you will never have law enforcement.

They are given certain rights as officers of the law to act accordingly if circumstances present themselves that they had little to no choice to use their fire arm. We are asking men and woman to protect and serve. In order for them to do that they must have some amount of rights to defend their own lives as well.

All of the evidence pointed that this officer acted within his rights that we as tax payers give our men and woman of the police the right use. There was no evidence he abused that right to use deadly force to protect himself.

What is so hard to understand.

None of it is hard to understand. Especially if you understand the role of a prosecutor in a grand jury situation, and the difference between what happened here and the way a grand jury is usually run. I appreciate your perspective on this, but I believe it to be a simplistic and flawed understanding of the legal process and of the concept of "no evidence."

Are we implying the Grand Jury was rigged?

 

[fantasycurse42]

Officer Wilson is 6'4 210 lbs, the same height as Brown, and was an armed police officer who presumably had some training in fighting/subduing suspects without the use of a weapon. Brown was just fatter than him- that's literally the only "advantage" he would have had in a fight.

Brown had 100 lbs on him, that's like a welterweight fighting a heavyweight... It is a gigantic advantage, this isn't really debatable.

 

[TobiasFunke]

What good did the looting do? That is what I am having a hard time understanding. I get the anger. Just don't understand the leap from being extremely angry to burning buildings, robbing businesses, etc. Did those business owners contribute to the perceived miscarriage of justice? So if Michael Brown really was an innocent victim of police brutality, the solution is to burn down the neighborhood of the very people who are oppressed? Insane.

I think the general issue here is the breakdown of the social contract. The reason we don't steal from people, or destroy other people's things is that we are in a social contract with them - we all live together and create a society. In the view of much of the low-income and/or African American community, the social contract is meaningless when the establishment (in many cases, if not most, the "white establishment") can gun down members of their community and face no repercussions.

As a result, if the social contract has broken down to the point where their lives are not protected or valued, they have no issue with breaching their part of the social contract by stealing, destroying, etc.

I think you're making two mistakes, or misrepresentations here. You're assuming that Brown was "gunned down" for no cause. Also, you say "and face no repercussions" - but wasn't there a trial?

No, there was not a trial. There was a grand jury hearing, usually a formality but handled in a very odd way by the prosecutor here. I suspect that the prosecutor didn't actually want to charge Wilson but knew that decision would result in a massive ####storm put directly at his feet. So he used the grand jury process as a way to partially deflect said ####storm.

If a grand jury didn't indict, there is zero chance a conviction would've happened as they would need substantially more evidence to convict during a criminal trial. They didn't even find probable cause to go to that next step.

I feel like a lot of people are just disregarding all of the evidence the prosecutor laid out.

I agree that there's zero chance there would have been a conviction. Not sure why you posted that in response to my post, I didn't say otherwise.

I do find it funny that you reference "all the evidence the prosecutor laid out," though. Because laying out evidence to defend the accused and support a failure to indict isn't really his job. In fact his job is kind of the opposite of that. Says it right there in the job title and everything.

 

[Todem]

Don't get caught with a dime bag then. Simple.


Want me to be more sympathetic to the idea blacks are unequally targeted by cops? Start showing me examples of blacks who are doing nothing wrong yet still getting busted/harassed. In almost all of these cases we hear about, these individuals were in the process of breaking the law and/or had warrants out for previous crimes. Don't be a troublemaker and then try to cry about people are looking at you as a troublemaker.

Seriously? There's anecdotal evidence of that everywhere. You are familiar with the term "driving while black"?

No question racial profiling goes on. But don't use this case as an example.

Please don't. The fact the black community is hanging there hat on a case like this shows a complete lack of any intelligence and common sense. This kid did things that led to his untimely demise.

HE PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED A POLICE OFFICER. It will never end well when you try to do that. Especially when you are far larger than said officer.

Officer Wilson is 6'4 210 lbs, the same height as Brown, and was an armed police officer who presumably had some training in fighting/subduing suspects without the use of a weapon. Brown was just fatter than him- that's literally the only "advantage" he would have had in a fight. The narrative that Wilson was some sort of tiny helpless weakling that Brown could easily pummel is just one of many piles of that people are lapping up without bothering to check the facts.

Also, maybe don't run around calling other people "dumb" and "so freaking ignorant" until you sort out the difference between "there" and "their.

Don't get caught with a dime bag then. Simple.


Want me to be more sympathetic to the idea blacks are unequally targeted by cops? Start showing me examples of blacks who are doing nothing wrong yet still getting busted/harassed. In almost all of these cases we hear about, these individuals were in the process of breaking the law and/or had warrants out for previous crimes. Don't be a troublemaker and then try to cry about people are looking at you as a troublemaker.

Seriously? There's anecdotal evidence of that everywhere. You are familiar with the term "driving while black"?

No question racial profiling goes on. But don't use this case as an example.

Please don't. The fact the black community is hanging there hat on a case like this shows a complete lack of any intelligence and common sense. This kid did things that led to his untimely demise.

HE PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED A POLICE OFFICER. It will never end well when you try to do that. Especially when you are far larger than said officer.

Officer Wilson is 6'4 210 lbs, the same height as Brown, and was an armed police officer who presumably had some training in fighting/subduing suspects without the use of a weapon. Brown was just fatter than him- that's literally the only "advantage" he would have had in a fight. The narrative that Wilson was some sort of tiny helpless weakling that Brown could easily pummel is just one of many piles of that people are lapping up without bothering to check the facts.

Also, maybe don't run around calling other people "dumb" and "so freaking ignorant" until you sort out the difference between "there" and "their."

He obviously felt his life was threatened. But you don't believe him.

He obviously felt his life was threatened. But you don't believe him.

And I type fast and auto correct screws things up sometimes and I have no time to proof read my posts so cool it with the grammar nazi BS Tobias. I thought you were better than that.

 

[jonessed]

The problem is this simply wasn't a fair fight. Wilson had an obligation to thrown down his weapon and duke it out with Brown mano y mano.

 

[Smack Tripper]

I think Henry Ford is right as a general rule, but Ivan is right in this instance. To paraphrase the Passover Seder, why is this riot different from all other riots? The answer is the lack of spontaneity. These looters, many if whom brought masks, knew what was going to happen.

"The black community" knew what was going to happen before Brown's body was removed from the street.

if we had a riot after every time a black person was shot by a white policeman, we would have to schedule these riots months in advance

Isn't that kind of the point? This was a tipping point for the community.

well.. yeah.. my point was it doesn't happen every time

 

[bryhamm]

Why is the black community rallying their cause around a thug? There are so many racial injustices in this country. Pick a better one to to rally around. Don't pick the guy who robs a store, assaults the store owner, punches a cop in the cop car, then bull rushes a cop. Then to go riot and burn innocent people's busineses. Makes you wonder.

This is what has me shaking my head in disbelief. Then you have some of these moronic tweets from Serena Williams, Magic Johnson, Pharell asking why no indictment? And so many more to come of course. People need to ####. Because they are sounding just a dumb as these rioters, looters and criminals running in the streets.

And most of the protesters were trying to be peaceful, but boy they were sounding ignorant....so freaking ignorant. They have no clue. They really don't. They had made up there minds the day it happened and nothing but a 1st or 2nd degree conviction would satisfy them. End of story.

This is what our country is coming too. Social Media and mobile devices driving and inciting riots, shaping definite verdicts and trying people in the court of public opinion, before an ounce of evidence is looked at and it just keeps getting worse and worse with each and every incident that is deemed worthy to go viral.

It's out of control.

There was a thorough and complete investigation into all the accounts, forensic evidence and circumstancel evidence surrounding this tragedy. Because it is tragic when a young man loses his life. No question and that is a fact. But it was concluded by a grand jury there were no grounds for any charges for a trial. The Officer acted within his rights as an officer of the law and took actions deemed appropriate for his situation. I don't believe for a moment he had any intentions of killing a young man that day. But unfortunately this young man took it upon himself to put his life in danger by assaulting a police officer.

The problem is we have a load of people who refuse to believe it was justified (based on color). What would have happened if the police officer was black?

Nothing. No news story, no riots.

Nothing. Just another black man shot dead.

But wait...stop the presses. This was a white police officer and some hoodlums say he had his hands raised to surrender and he was shot in the back!!!!, or slightly raised facing the officer, or he did not run at him or whatever the hell they wanted to lie about and it went viral. Then a lot of these so called eye witnesses retracted a lot of their accounts when other far more credible peoples accounts refuted their BS The fact is, he assaulted the officer and there was a major struggle that resulted in one gun shot and he fled the scene. The benefit of the doubt is going to go to an officer of the law not some 18 year old punk who just robbed a convenience store!!! And then you have witnesses who backed the police officers story and they were black!!!! But no that's not good enough....they must be uncle toms then. More likely though is, no one wants to hear it. Last night once the word got out of no trial, all these people were off to the races and crying foul and racism and all the same rhetoric we were hearing for months. And of course a small portion went on to riot, burn and loot there community. Forget all the evidence, all the interviews, all the forensic science and facts....FACTS!!! Forget all that.

SMFH.

 

[fantasycurse42]

What good did the looting do? That is what I am having a hard time understanding. I get the anger. Just don't understand the leap from being extremely angry to burning buildings, robbing businesses, etc. Did those business owners contribute to the perceived miscarriage of justice? So if Michael Brown really was an innocent victim of police brutality, the solution is to burn down the neighborhood of the very people who are oppressed? Insane.

I think the general issue here is the breakdown of the social contract. The reason we don't steal from people, or destroy other people's things is that we are in a social contract with them - we all live together and create a society. In the view of much of the low-income and/or African American community, the social contract is meaningless when the establishment (in many cases, if not most, the "white establishment") can gun down members of their community and face no repercussions.

As a result, if the social contract has broken down to the point where their lives are not protected or valued, they have no issue with breaching their part of the social contract by stealing, destroying, etc.

I think you're making two mistakes, or misrepresentations here. You're assuming that Brown was "gunned down" for no cause. Also, you say "and face no repercussions" - but wasn't there a trial?

No, there was not a trial. There was a grand jury hearing, usually a formality but handled in a very odd way by the prosecutor here. I suspect that the prosecutor didn't actually want to charge Wilson but knew that decision would result in a massive ####storm put directly at his feet. So he used the grand jury process as a way to partially deflect said ####storm.

If a grand jury didn't indict, there is zero chance a conviction would've happened as they would need substantially more evidence to convict during a criminal trial. They didn't even find probable cause to go to that next step.

I feel like a lot of people are just disregarding all of the evidence the prosecutor laid out.

I agree that there's zero chance there would have been a conviction. Not sure why you posted that in response to my post, I didn't say otherwise.

I do find it funny that you reference "all the evidence the prosecutor laid out," though. Because laying out evidence to defend the accused and support a failure to indict isn't really his job. In fact his job is kind of the opposite of that. Says it right there in the job title and everything.

He was presenting the evidence bc the people wanted it. He was doing all he could to calm the crowd, kinda the point of his 30 minute monologue. Obviously there was nothing he could say that would've been effective.... If he didn't you amongst others would be in here bashing him for that and saying this whole process has been cloaked.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Sums it up

 

[matttyl]

if an armed mob is encroaching upon me, I'm guessing I have a right to defend myself.

This conversation is ridiculous. No business is worth a person's life, regardless of whether that life belongs to the owner or to the rioter.

He's talking about defending himself.

 

[whiskey7]

Don't get caught with a dime bag then. Simple.


Want me to be more sympathetic to the idea blacks are unequally targeted by cops? Start showing me examples of blacks who are doing nothing wrong yet still getting busted/harassed. In almost all of these cases we hear about, these individuals were in the process of breaking the law and/or had warrants out for previous crimes. Don't be a troublemaker and then try to cry about people are looking at you as a troublemaker.

Is "tazed and shot to death because he was looking for help after a car accident" an example?

From the article: "When they arrived, Ferrell “charged” toward them. One of the three officers tasered Ferrell. When that did not stop his “advance”, 27-year-old Officer Randall Kerrick opened fire, hitting Jonathan Ferrell ten times - initial media reports said three times - killing him at the scene."

I am not going to sit here and say that doesn't sound excessive, but (according to the story) this guy charged the cops when they responded to a call about a break-in. Easy for us to sit here much later with 20/20 hindsight and say he was acting irrationally because he had just been in a wreck and he was just looking for help. But the cops didn't have the benefit at that time. No mention of it in that particular article but I would strongly suspect the officers issued him some commands during the incident. Fail to obey commands a cop gives you and you're asking for trouble. Not saying disobeying an officer gives them the right to blast you but (again) its putting oneself in a situation where nothing good is going to come of it.

 

[saintfool]

i haven't looked at the evidence. I plan on it. So far though as a general rule, liberals tend to believe the evidence points toward Brown being wrongfully killed, and conservatives believe it was justified .

So common sense (guy steals cigars, is considered a suspect, is confronted, goes after officer's gun and is shot in the head), evades a liberal and is a staple of a conservative.

IIRC, that wasn't why PO Wilson confronted the Brown. he didn't know anything about the theft at the time.

Educate yourself. He did in fact know about it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/11/25/why-darren-wilson-said-he-killed-michael-brown/

On a hot August day, Wilson drove down a street and spotted two young black men walking down the middle of the road. One wore a black shirt. The other held cigarillos. The details of a robbery earlier that day, blared out on a police radio, clicked into Wilson’s head. Were they suspects?

Not according to his grand jury testimony, which you *might* want to check out. The theft was announced but he didn't hear the entire call. It was made over his portable radio, which he described as "isn't the best". two other officers were following up on it while he finished a different incident. he approached Johnson and Bown because they were in the middle of the street and holding up traffic.

it was only after he encountered the kids that he believed that Brown might be a suspect in the robbery.

 

[TobiasFunke]

He was presenting the evidence bc the people wanted it. He was doing all he could to calm the crowd, kinda the point of his 30 minute monologue. Obviously there was nothing he could say that would've been effective.... If he didn't you amongst others would be in here bashing him for that and saying this whole process has been cloaked.

Stop pretending you know what I think or what I would say in response to this or that. TIA.

 

[BigJohn]

Look, the peaceful protestors don't believe Michael Brown was a thug. At worst they think he was a dumb unarmed black teenager who didn't deserve to die. And honestly I'm still not sure this isn't correct. The prosecutor was pretty compelling last night but who knows what happened?

Of course they don't see him as a thug. He is exactly like them. He is a normal kid in black America today. You put 100 different black kids in that exact scenario and I feel pretty confident saying at least 75% of them would have reacted the same way.

you think 75% of black kids who get stopped by a white cop would get into a punching match?

I think they would resist the commands. How they physically react may be different, but there is an inherent disrespect for white authority, so I don't think how he acted would not be that uncommon. Maybe 75% is too high, but I think the number would be a lot higher than most people would expect.

You know, some cops are black.

No ####?

No ####.

Well, then let's run this down a little bit. Do you think that Brown would have acted the way he did if the cop had been black?

Or do you think the cop would have reacted the way he did had he been assaulted by a big white guy?

I hope so.

 

[Fennis]

Sums it up

I prefer gifs that sum up complex socioeconomic and racial issues better than images.

 

[Jackstraw]

In these potentially violent times in Ferguson, I think its important to remember the example of MLK. His restraint. How he was able to show compassion even under duress. How he reached out to all sides in a spirit of non violence.....he got shot in the face anyway.

Xavier Holland

 

[Todem]

Sorry Henry....there was no grounds for a trial here. A grand Jury came to that conclusion after reviewing everything.


That is the law, that is our system. It is not going to change. If your going to try every police officer for every time they have to shoot and kill a suspected criminal you will never have law enforcement.

They are given certain rights as officers of the law to act accordingly if circumstances present themselves that they had little to no choice to use their fire arm. We are asking men and woman to protect and serve. In order for them to do that they must have some amount of rights to defend their own lives as well.

All of the evidence pointed that this officer acted within his rights that we as tax payers give our men and woman of the police the right use. There was no evidence he abused that right to use deadly force to protect himself.

What is so hard to understand.

None of it is hard to understand. Especially if you understand the role of a prosecutor in a grand jury situation, and the difference between what happened here and the way a grand jury is usually run. I appreciate your perspective on this, but I believe it to be a simplistic and flawed understanding of the legal process and of the concept of "no evidence."

Are we implying the Grand Jury was rigged?

Yes that is exactly what is being implied.

Lot's of BS being talked about now. Forget the legal system....it's all rigged. We have no shot. Big Corporations control everything, we have no chance at prosperity, no chance at getting ahead.

Government? All rigged. We have no voice, we have no rights.

It's all just rigged.

Big money goes around the world

Big money underground

Big money got a mighty voice

Big money make no sound

Big money pull a million strings

Big money hold the prize

Big money weave a mighty web

Big money draw the flies

Sometimes pushing people around

Sometimes pulling out the rug

Sometimes pushing all the buttons

Sometimes pulling out the plug

It's the power and the glory

It's a war in paradise

It's a Cinderella story

On a tumble of the dice

Big money goes around the world

Big money take a cruise

Big money leave a mighty wake

Big money leave a bruise

Big money make a million dreams

Big money spin big deals

Big money make a mighty head

Big money spin big wheels

Sometimes building ivory towers

Sometimes knocking castles down

Sometimes building you a stairway

Lock you underground

It's that old-time religion

It's the kingdom they would rule

It's the fool on television

Getting paid to play the fool

Big money goes around the world

Big money give and take

Big money done a power of good

Big money make mistakes

Big money got a heavy hand

Big money take control

Big money got a mean streak

Big money got no soul...

No doubt it runs the world. It has since the beginning of time. Get over it and go stake your claim.