Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (3 Viewers)

[SIDA!]

What is it with all of these insults? Calling people moronic, ##### bags, P.O.S.? It's not funny. It's not illuminating. It's ugly and stupid.

The insults are all they got left. If you have to resort to name calling, it usually means that you don't have that strong of an argument.

"Brown supporters are striking out! Wilson supporters have hit a grand slam. Stupid Brown supporters are nothing but fumblers. Wilson kicked it straight through the uprights!"

its funny that anyone questioning the police work in this case are pro brown. How about if some people are just anti- shoddy policing.Brown just happens to be the collateral damage

I think we need to have a larger discussion on "shoddy policing" and whether or not officers involved in shootings adhere to protocols. In the Cleveland shooting of the 12 year old, I believe that that child is dead because the officer driving the vehicle was incredibly negligent. There is no way that officer followed procedures pulling his vehicle within 5 feet of a suspect believed to have a gun.

I think the officer driving that car should be fired and should face criminal prosecution for his actions which unnecessarily caused the death of this child. I am not a lawyer...so I don't know if manslaughter or what the appropriate charge should be...but that is my feeling on this matter.

I don't think it is fair to expect an officer to follow every protocol to a "t", but gross violation of these protocols should have consequences.

That shooting was a horrible example of reacting to fast ...they should have created a distance between them and the suspect. They claim to have told that child to raise his hands 3 times...when? as they were pulling up to him at a screeching halt? That said the kid was pulling the realistic looking bb gun out from his pants as they pulled up...he almost left them with no choice at that point. They should have been told a possible juvenile was armed with what could be a toy gun. Horrible policing from start to finish ...but the kid played his part also ...so sad.

I wonder if he'll get prosecuted? Maybe having a special prosecuter assigned only to police shootings would be helpful for these types of situations?

The driver should be prosecuted and the 9-1-1 operator should be fired. Just egregious errors in my opinion.

The rookie in the passenger seat who killed the kid was placed in an impossible situation. Putting myself in his shoes...I don't think anyone can really fault the guy. He was literally about 7 feet from a person he believed had a gun.

I am not sure if this is a good idea or not, but I wonder if there should be some sort of national body specifically designed to rigorously investigate officer involved shootings. Something like NTSB whenever there is a plane accident.

 

[timschochet]

From my standpoint, it doesn't matter one bit if Brown was charging at Wilson or walking slowly towards him. Both sides acknowledge and agree that each of the following events happened:

1. There was an altercation between Brown and Wilson in the police car.

2. Brown threw punches at Wilson.

3. Wilson discharged his weapon during the altercation.

4. Brown fled away from the car.

5. Wilson emerged from the car, drew his weapon, and told the suspects to freeze.

6. Brown turned around and was facing Wilson. All the shots were entrance wounds to the front of his body.

7. The crime scene evidence showed that Brown moved towards Wilson between the first shot and the last.

NONE of these facts are in dispute. Why does it matter if Brown was "charging" Wilson or walking slowly towards him? After what had just happened, Wilson had every reason in the world to use deadly force at that point. If he had shot Brown in the back while he was fleeing, there wouldn't be an argument. If he had shot Brown while his hands were up and he wasn't moving, there wouldn't be an argument. If he had shot Brown from 100 feet away, there wouldn't be an argument. But that's not what happened. Brown had just assaulted a cop and was resisting arrest. The cop was obviously in a very dangerous situation, as evidenced by the fact that he had already fired his weapon IN THE CAR! I mean, seriously Tim - do you really think it is reasonable to expect him not to shoot there when Brown doesn't immediately freeze, and then starts walking towards him? After all that occurred? I don't care if he's walking at a snail's pace. If he doesn't stop immediately and comply with all directions, after assaulting a cop, then yes - he deserves to die. Sorry if that offends your delicate sensibilities, but that's the way it is.

Michael Brown robbed a convenience store, bullied an old man, walked defiantly in the middle of the street, then assaulted a cop. I feel bad for his parents, and in some way I also feel bad that his life came to such a horrible end. But let's not make this guy into a martyr or a victim. It was borderline suicide by cop.

I find this post, and DW's somewhat similar argument, to be very reasonable rebuttals to my argument (the two responses on the previous page were quite reasonable as well). This is what I was hoping: that we could engage in a civilized dialogue about what happened without throwing insults at each other. I thank you guys very much. That being said, while I appreciate your argument, I have to respectfully disagree with it. Ultimately, if Michael Brown is at least 30 feet away and unarmed, he is not an immediate mortal threat to Officer Wilson unless he is charging toward him. Walking toward him does not make Brown a mortal threat. What Michael Brown did just seconds before, and what sort of man Brown is are both immaterial- not immaterial to Wilson's frame of mind, but immaterial to what Wilson as a police officer should have the right to do- he should not have the right to shoot Brown dead in such an instance. That's why the charge is so important IMO: if Brown is charging then Wilson has the right to kill him.

I should also add that had Brown been killed during the fight at the car, I would have had absolutely no problem with that. If you go for an officer's gun the officer has the right to kill you- at that moment. The officer IMO does not have the right to let you run away and then kill you from a distance.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

What is it with all of these insults? Calling people moronic, ##### bags, P.O.S.? It's not funny. It's not illuminating. It's ugly and stupid.

The insults are all they got left. If you have to resort to name calling, it usually means that you don't have that strong of an argument.

"Brown supporters are striking out! Wilson supporters have hit a grand slam. Stupid Brown supporters are nothing but fumblers. Wilson kicked it straight through the uprights!"

its funny that anyone questioning the police work in this case are pro brown. How about if some people are just anti- shoddy policing.Brown just happens to be the collateral damage

I think we need to have a larger discussion on "shoddy policing" and whether or not officers involved in shootings adhere to protocols. In the Cleveland shooting of the 12 year old, I believe that that child is dead because the officer driving the vehicle was incredibly negligent. There is no way that officer followed procedures pulling his vehicle within 5 feet of a suspect believed to have a gun.

I think the officer driving that car should be fired and should face criminal prosecution for his actions which unnecessarily caused the death of this child. I am not a lawyer...so I don't know if manslaughter or what the appropriate charge should be...but that is my feeling on this matter.

I don't think it is fair to expect an officer to follow every protocol to a "t", but gross violation of these protocols should have consequences.

That shooting was a horrible example of reacting to fast ...they should have created a distance between them and the suspect. They claim to have told that child to raise his hands 3 times...when? as they were pulling up to him at a screeching halt? That said the kid was pulling the realistic looking bb gun out from his pants as they pulled up...he almost left them with no choice at that point. They should have been told a possible juvenile was armed with what could be a toy gun. Horrible policing from start to finish ...but the kid played his part also ...so sad.

Whoever is saying that is a ####### liar...unless they are referring to the use of the speaker as they are rolling up Starsky and Hutch style on the kid.

the rookie cop said that according to reports

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I'm glad he resigned. I don't think he should have gone to jail, but Wilson's obvious fabrication that Brown turned around and charged him- an absurd lie which nobody reasonably minded could ever buy into- proves that he probably could have avoided killing Brown.

Seriously, just give it up. You're just making #### up at this point and speaking it as truth. The autopsy showed no back to front shots. Why is Brown charging a lie? The crime scene definitely showed Brown moved back toward Wilson. Ballistics showed shots on the car, a close shot into Brown's hand, and contusions to Wilson's face. There is no evidence suggesting Sonething else happened. It's frustrating when people make up something when they don't have a clue what they're talking about.

I'm not making anything up. I accept that he moved back, slowly, toward Wilson. I don't accept that he charged. There's no evidence that he charged. It's been explained over and over again why it's extremely improbable that he charged.

So your contention is that the bullet to the top of the dome happened because Brown was just slowly stumbling toward Wilson?

perhaps he was falling to the ground ...thus exposing the top of his head ...duh

Are you saying that a guy who was not mortally wounded falls face first (almost as if he had essentially passed out and fell over like a falling tree) and the officer shoots him in the top of the head at that split second?

If the speculation is that he was not charging, I am struggling to understand how it would be physically possible for a person to somehow have the momentum to fall forward and get show in the top of the head.

Please walk me through in intimate detail the scenario you think is plausible. I am sincerely curious and would like to hear an alternate scenario.

really? its not possible be be getting shot in the arm and left side of the body ...then falling down exposing the top of the head during a volley of shots and one hits the top of the head and exits the eye? strange

I am looking for you to give me a detailed explanation of how you think he was shot and body responded to those shots. I think this requires a more substantive response than the one you just gave.

He was shot in the forehead and the top of the head. I think it is logical to conclude that those two shots were fired in succession and were the final two shots. Do you agree with this or does anyone disagree?

i think he was moving slowly forward (possibly in shock)...not charging..he had taken a few bullets during the first volley...then took a few more bullets during the second volley...people dont go flying backwards into the air like you see in the movies when they get shot...most fall straight down ...im guessing brown was taking shots and was falling down as he was being shot at and one went thru his head...very possible . People in here that think browns head was down and he had one hand in his waistline and the other hand down by his side as he was running dont explain how one of the bullets went thru the inside of his forearm in an upward trajectory....his arm was raised thats how

 

[SIDA!]

BK: I think he is lying. I don't think it is humanly possible to tell the kid that command three times in that 2 seconds.

 

[Drunken Poster]

What is it with all of these insults? Calling people moronic, ##### bags, P.O.S.? It's not funny. It's not illuminating. It's ugly and stupid.

The insults are all they got left. If you have to resort to name calling, it usually means that you don't have that strong of an argument.

Didn't you just post an article about the cop's mom?

It was meant as a joke, if you noticed the . Just having a little fun after being called names over the last 10 pages. And the article was as relevant as the character assassination of Michael Brown in this thread, most of which had nothing to do with the shooting incident. Some of crowd here are apparently irony deficient.

That doesn't sound like much fun. To each his own I guess

 

[BustedKnuckles]

BK: I think he is lying. I don't think it is humanly possible to tell the kid that command three times in that 2 seconds.

oh i agree 100 %

They also said he was possibly 20 yo on the police radio after they shot him...how do you mistake a 12 yo as a 20 yo...crazy

 

[Henry Ford]

Hey, has anyone seen a police corruption poll since the 1987 one in Chicago? The one that found that 3/4 of police admitted to regularly bending the truth to get probable cause, and 1/5 had witnessed another officer using excessive force? I think it's the same one that found that about half of officers agreed with judges throwing out police testimony as unreliable.

 

[Sand]

Hey, has anyone seen a police corruption poll since the 1987 one in Chicago? The one that found that 3/4 of police admitted to regularly bending the truth to get probable cause, and 1/5 had witnessed another officer using excessive force? I think it's the same one that found that about half of officers agreed with judges throwing out police testimony as unreliable.

Chicago is the gleaming example here?

 

[Henry Ford]

Hey, has anyone seen a police corruption poll since the 1987 one in Chicago? The one that found that 3/4 of police admitted to regularly bending the truth to get probable cause, and 1/5 had witnessed another officer using excessive force? I think it's the same one that found that about half of officers agreed with judges throwing out police testimony as unreliable.

Chicago is the gleaming example here?

I'm pretty sure that post is asking for other examples. I think it's even in the first line.

 

[Widbil83]

Mildly entertaining mass hipster arrest taking place in Portland right now-

http://www.ustream.tv/jessehadden?utm_campaign=ustre.am&utm_source=ustre.am%2FGVjs&utm_medium=social&utm_content=20141129230000

 

[renesauz]

Brown supporters deserve all the ridicule and hate they are getting.

(By the way, a "Brown supporter" is apparently somebody who believes that he shouldn't have been killed. Hard to see how that makes one a "supporter".)

Exactly.

Why don't you pick a better example, instead of a thug with past criminal behavior. You know, one that didn't assault a cop. You might garner some support. This guy got exactly what he deserved.

He "deserved" to be killed?

Even if you believe that Wilson's actions were reasonable under the circumstances, you're a complete piece of #### for suggesting an unarmed 18 yr old "deserved" to die for a few bad decisions.

This is garbage. If said 18 year old is 280 pounds and 6'8" and physically assualting a police officer, trying to take away his weapon...then heck yes he got what he deserved. Age is virtually meaningless next to the other facts.

Tired of this garbage. Protestors who turn violent and destroy property. Thugs being presented as victims and cops being castrated for doing their job. This isn't the case to attempt to prove or discuss institutional racism. It's a case of a bad kid who made a huge mistake and paid for it with his life.

 

[timschochet]

Brown supporters deserve all the ridicule and hate they are getting.

(By the way, a "Brown supporter" is apparently somebody who believes that he shouldn't have been killed. Hard to see how that makes one a "supporter".)

Exactly.

Why don't you pick a better example, instead of a thug with past criminal behavior. You know, one that didn't assault a cop. You might garner some support. This guy got exactly what he deserved.

He "deserved" to be killed?Even if you believe that Wilson's actions were reasonable under the circumstances, you're a complete piece of #### for suggesting an unarmed 18 yr old "deserved" to die for a few bad decisions.

This is garbage. If said 18 year old is 280 pounds and 6'8" and physically assualting a police officer, trying to take away his weapon...then heck yes he got what he deserved. Age is virtually meaningless next to the other facts.Tired of this garbage. Protestors who turn violent and destroy property. Thugs being presented as victims and cops being castrated for doing their job. This isn't the case to attempt to prove or discuss institutional racism. It's a case of a bad kid who made a huge mistake and paid for it with his life.

And I'm tired of this garbage that this punk thug deserved to die no matter where he was. I don't care what he was like, or that he struggled with the cop or that he went for the gun. If he's 30 feet away and not armed, and not charging the cop, then he didn't deserve to die. Cops don't get to execute people. So stop bringing up all of this other junk. None of it is relevant. Either the kid charged or he didn't. If he didn't he was wrongfully killed. If he had been a mass murderer in that situation he still would have been wrongfully killed.

 

[jon_mx]

At this point this thread is just repeating awful talking points endlessly. Just horrible points in most cases especially by the Brown side.

 

[renesauz]

Brown supporters deserve all the ridicule and hate they are getting.

(By the way, a "Brown supporter" is apparently somebody who believes that he shouldn't have been killed. Hard to see how that makes one a "supporter".)

Exactly.

Why don't you pick a better example, instead of a thug with past criminal behavior. You know, one that didn't assault a cop. You might garner some support. This guy got exactly what he deserved.

He "deserved" to be killed?Even if you believe that Wilson's actions were reasonable under the circumstances, you're a complete piece of #### for suggesting an unarmed 18 yr old "deserved" to die for a few bad decisions.

This is garbage. If said 18 year old is 280 pounds and 6'8" and physically assualting a police officer, trying to take away his weapon...then heck yes he got what he deserved. Age is virtually meaningless next to the other facts.Tired of this garbage. Protestors who turn violent and destroy property. Thugs being presented as victims and cops being castrated for doing their job. This isn't the case to attempt to prove or discuss institutional racism. It's a case of a bad kid who made a huge mistake and paid for it with his life.

And I'm tired of this garbage that this punk thug deserved to die no matter where he was. I don't care what he was like, or that he struggled with the cop or that he went for the gun. If he's 30 feet away and not armed, and not charging the cop, then he didn't deserve to die. Cops don't get to execute people. So stop bringing up all of this other junk. None of it is relevant. Either the kid charged or he didn't. If he didn't he was wrongfully killed. If he had been a mass murderer in that situation he still would have been wrongfully killed.

See....the point in bold is known. The other parts seem to be in debate. But that point in bold is enough to at the very least earn the co-p the benefit of the doubt. IN the meantime, protests that turn into looting and vandalism sprees over and over again do absolutley NOTHING to advance the supposed cause of racial justice, instead doing that cause much more harm than good because instead of drawing attention to the point desired, they serve to reinforce and validate the very opinions about blacks that the (legitimate) organizers are trying to hard to eradicate.

Looting and vandalizing in the name of protest over "racial injustice" represent more than simply failure- it serves to strengthen a negative perception and is terribly counter-productive and ignorant.

 

[msommer]

At this point this thread is just repeating awful talking points endlessly. Just horrible points in most cases especially by the Brown side.

FYP. HTH

 

[GoBirds]

Brown supporters deserve all the ridicule and hate they are getting.

(By the way, a "Brown supporter" is apparently somebody who believes that he shouldn't have been killed. Hard to see how that makes one a "supporter".)

Exactly.

Why don't you pick a better example, instead of a thug with past criminal behavior. You know, one that didn't assault a cop. You might garner some support. This guy got exactly what he deserved.

He "deserved" to be killed?

Even if you believe that Wilson's actions were reasonable under the circumstances, you're a complete piece of #### for suggesting an unarmed 18 yr old "deserved" to die for a few bad decisions.

This is garbage. If said 18 year old is 280 pounds and 6'8" and physically assualting a police officer, trying to take away his weapon...then heck yes he got what he deserved. Age is virtually meaningless next to the other facts.Tired of this garbage. Protestors who turn violent and destroy property. Thugs being presented as victims and cops being castrated for doing their job. This isn't the case to attempt to prove or discuss institutional racism. It's a case of a bad kid who made a huge mistake and paid for it with his life.

Exactly. All these people with their conspiracy theories need to realize you don't attack cops.

 

[spreagle]

Brown supporters deserve all the ridicule and hate they are getting.

(By the way, a "Brown supporter" is apparently somebody who believes that he shouldn't have been killed. Hard to see how that makes one a "supporter".)

Exactly.

Why don't you pick a better example, instead of a thug with past criminal behavior. You know, one that didn't assault a cop. You might garner some support. This guy got exactly what he deserved.

He "deserved" to be killed?Even if you believe that Wilson's actions were reasonable under the circumstances, you're a complete piece of #### for suggesting an unarmed 18 yr old "deserved" to die for a few bad decisions.

This is garbage. If said 18 year old is 280 pounds and 6'8" and physically assualting a police officer, trying to take away his weapon...then heck yes he got what he deserved. Age is virtually meaningless next to the other facts.Tired of this garbage. Protestors who turn violent and destroy property. Thugs being presented as victims and cops being castrated for doing their job. This isn't the case to attempt to prove or discuss institutional racism. It's a case of a bad kid who made a huge mistake and paid for it with his life.

And I'm tired of this garbage that this punk thug deserved to die no matter where he was. I don't care what he was like, or that he struggled with the cop or that he went for the gun. If he's 30 feet away and not armed, and not charging the cop, then he didn't deserve to die. Cops don't get to execute people. So stop bringing up all of this other junk. None of it is relevant. Either the kid charged or he didn't. If he didn't he was wrongfully killed. If he had been a mass murderer in that situation he still would have been wrongfully killed.

I dont get this constant point about Brown not being armed, how was Wilson supposed to know this at the time with 100% certainty, he never frisked the guy. The fact that Brown assaulted Wilson, making him a person not inclined to follow the law, makes it much more likely Brown was armed in some form or fashion, like with a knife, not 100% certain not to be armed. After the fight, I think Wilson had to assume he was armed, even if there only was a 10% chance of Brown being armed.

 

[jon_mx]

At this point this thread is just repeating awful talking points endlessly. Just horrible points in most cases especially by the Brown side.

FYP. HTH

I think the initial narrative and the enormous back peddling makes the current Brown spin particularly nauseating. It started off as outrage over excessive use of deadly force for no justifiable reason, and now it has been reduced to being outraged over the way it was handled.

 

[jon_mx]

Tim, I just have to say that if you are using what you think is "common sense" to judge what you think someone would do, you are flat out incredibly wrong. Unless you are the kind of person who would grab something off the shelf in a store, refusing to pay for it and physically manhandle a store employee who tries to stop you, you do not have the same judgment call that the deceased Michael Brown had. I'm sick of seeing you post that you refuse to believe something because common sense indicates to the contrary. There are so many things people do that I, using my common sense, would never do in a million years. There is no common "common sense".

I feel so dirty saying anything in one of these stupid arguments.

How do you know what you would do, under different circumstances, raised in a world that is very different than the environment you were raised in?This "I would never do that in a million years" nonsense is extremely naive.

So maybe you should read up a little. And EXACTLY the point.

You have to understand, Tim has lived that life so he does understand growing up in the ghetto. For pete's sake, he hangs out with his peeps down at the barbar shop on a weekly basis.

 

[Hang 10]

So some people are still convinced Wilson lied even though he had 7 witnesses(3 almost word for word) back up his story?

 

[fantasycurse42]

So some people are still convinced Wilson lied even though he had 7 witnesses(3 almost word for word) back up his story?

Goberment Coverup

 

[MAC_32]

What is it with all of these insults? Calling people moronic, ##### bags, P.O.S.? It's not funny. It's not illuminating. It's ugly and stupid.

The insults are all they got left. If you have to resort to name calling, it usually means that you don't have that strong of an argument.

"Brown supporters are striking out! Wilson supporters have hit a grand slam. Stupid Brown supporters are nothing but fumblers. Wilson kicked it straight through the uprights!"

its funny that anyone questioning the police work in this case are pro brown. How about if some people are just anti- shoddy policing.Brown just happens to be the collateral damage

I think we need to have a larger discussion on "shoddy policing" and whether or not officers involved in shootings adhere to protocols. In the Cleveland shooting of the 12 year old, I believe that that child is dead because the officer driving the vehicle was incredibly negligent. There is no way that officer followed procedures pulling his vehicle within 5 feet of a suspect believed to have a gun.I think the officer driving that car should be fired and should face criminal prosecution for his actions which unnecessarily caused the death of this child. I am not a lawyer...so I don't know if manslaughter or what the appropriate charge should be...but that is my feeling on this matter.

I don't think it is fair to expect an officer to follow every protocol to a "t", but gross violation of these protocols should have consequences.

That shooting was a horrible example of reacting to fast ...they should have created a distance between them and the suspect. They claim to have told that child to raise his hands 3 times...when? as they were pulling up to him at a screeching halt? That said the kid was pulling the realistic looking bb gun out from his pants as they pulled up...he almost left them with no choice at that point. They should have been told a possible juvenile was armed with what could be a toy gun. Horrible policing from start to finish ...but the kid played his part also ...so sad.

I wonder if he'll get prosecuted? Maybe having a special prosecuter assigned only to police shootings would be helpful for these types of situations?

The driver should be prosecuted and the 9-1-1 operator should be fired. Just egregious errors in my opinion. The rookie in the passenger seat who killed the kid was placed in an impossible situation. Putting myself in his shoes...I don't think anyone can really fault the guy. He was literally about 7 feet from a person he believed had a gun.

I am not sure if this is a good idea or not, but I wonder if there should be some sort of national body specifically designed to rigorously investigate officer involved shootings. Something like NTSB whenever there is a plane accident.

from what I understand, the police are trained to approach a situation exactly like they did in the Cleveland case, so if you take issue with that you have a totally different argument on your hands.

 

[The General]

So some people are still convinced Wilson lied even though he had 7 witnesses(3 almost word for word) back up his story?

I'm sure a lot of people in that neighborhood are big fans of cops.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

What is it with all of these insults? Calling people moronic, ##### bags, P.O.S.? It's not funny. It's not illuminating. It's ugly and stupid.

The insults are all they got left. If you have to resort to name calling, it usually means that you don't have that strong of an argument.

"Brown supporters are striking out! Wilson supporters have hit a grand slam. Stupid Brown supporters are nothing but fumblers. Wilson kicked it straight through the uprights!"

its funny that anyone questioning the police work in this case are pro brown. How about if some people are just anti- shoddy policing.Brown just happens to be the collateral damage

I think we need to have a larger discussion on "shoddy policing" and whether or not officers involved in shootings adhere to protocols. In the Cleveland shooting of the 12 year old, I believe that that child is dead because the officer driving the vehicle was incredibly negligent. There is no way that officer followed procedures pulling his vehicle within 5 feet of a suspect believed to have a gun.

I think the officer driving that car should be fired and should face criminal prosecution for his actions which unnecessarily caused the death of this child. I am not a lawyer...so I don't know if manslaughter or what the appropriate charge should be...but that is my feeling on this matter.

I don't think it is fair to expect an officer to follow every protocol to a "t", but gross violation of these protocols should have consequences.

That shooting was a horrible example of reacting to fast ...they should have created a distance between them and the suspect. They claim to have told that child to raise his hands 3 times...when? as they were pulling up to him at a screeching halt? That said the kid was pulling the realistic looking bb gun out from his pants as they pulled up...he almost left them with no choice at that point. They should have been told a possible juvenile was armed with what could be a toy gun. Horrible policing from start to finish ...but the kid played his part also ...so sad.

I wonder if he'll get prosecuted? Maybe having a special prosecuter assigned only to police shootings would be helpful for these types of situations?

This is interesting. In many jurisdictions they will have a D.A. from a neighboring jurisdiction make the determination or handle the case but that is still fellow law enforcement, as is the State Attorney General or even the DOJ. Are you suggesting a Special Prosecutor with no ties to law enforcement, or even marginally antithetical to law enforcement, such as a Public Defender with prosecutorial powers in matters involving law enforcement shootings or just those resulting in death. Maybe this prosecutor could operate out of an office of the state supreme court.

You would want experienced prosecutors in such an office, but would want them without former or recent attachments to area law enforcement. I guess the ideal person would be a top level prosecutor from another jurisdiction or state entirely who had left prosecution to do defense work for a time, thereby establishing his or her personal predilection to be able to challenge law enforcement's versions.

 

[timschochet]

So some people are still convinced Wilson lied even though he had 7 witnesses(3 almost word for word) back up his story?

Where did you get this? Exactly how many witnesses testified to the charge and exactly how many of them are consistent with each other and with Wilson? I will change my mind and stop arguing in this thread if you are correct; please provide a link.

 

[timschochet]

Tim, I just have to say that if you are using what you think is "common sense" to judge what you think someone would do, you are flat out incredibly wrong. Unless you are the kind of person who would grab something off the shelf in a store, refusing to pay for it and physically manhandle a store employee who tries to stop you, you do not have the same judgment call that the deceased Michael Brown had. I'm sick of seeing you post that you refuse to believe something because common sense indicates to the contrary. There are so many things people do that I, using my common sense, would never do in a million years. There is no common "common sense".

I feel so dirty saying anything in one of these stupid arguments.

How do you know what you would do, under different circumstances, raised in a world that is very different than the environment you were raised in?This "I would never do that in a million years" nonsense is extremely naive.

So maybe you should read up a little. And EXACTLY the point.

You have to understand, Tim has lived that life so he does understand growing up in the ghetto. For pete's sake, he hangs out with his peeps down at the barbar shop on a weekly basis.

Dude just stop. You don't understand me at all; you already had to take back what you wrote about me earlier in this thread. If this subject matter truly interests you then spend more time discussing it and less time discussing me. Tia

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Hey, has anyone seen a police corruption poll since the 1987 one in Chicago? The one that found that 3/4 of police admitted to regularly bending the truth to get probable cause, and 1/5 had witnessed another officer using excessive force? I think it's the same one that found that about half of officers agreed with judges throwing out police testimony as unreliable.

Most major Departments have worked exceedingly hard over the last quarter of a century to root out such corruption. Whether a 27 year old study from a notoriously corrupt department has relevance today, who can say. I would not argue that any Department has achieved perfection. I would hope that nearly all have come a long ways since those days. I have, however, seen anecdotal evidence that the Departments in N.Y. Chicago. Miami, New Orleans, and especially Los Angeles, all of who very publicly touted their reforms, have fallen somewhat short of their goals in establishing public confidence. When you have literally thousands, and even 10's of thousands in a Department there are going to be some corrupt individuals who will abuse there authority. There will also be incompetents. Both are dangerous.

I had a mentor of sorts. He use to say: Never ascribe to evil motives that which can just as easily be explained by incompetence because the former is rare, but the latter, rampant.

 

[jonessed]

What is it with all of these insults? Calling people moronic, ##### bags, P.O.S.? It's not funny. It's not illuminating. It's ugly and stupid.

A lot of people wonder (some hopefully!) what would make me leave the FFA and these type of discussions, it's all the insults. Not the funny ones- I can appreciate those and sometimes I partake. It's these ugly stupid serious insults that make everyone of these discussions worse. I don't need to read those. I don't enjoy them.

Teabagger

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Brown supporters deserve all the ridicule and hate they are getting.

(By the way, a "Brown supporter" is apparently somebody who believes that he shouldn't have been killed. Hard to see how that makes one a "supporter".)

Exactly.

Why don't you pick a better example, instead of a thug with past criminal behavior. You know, one that didn't assault a cop. You might garner some support. This guy got exactly what he deserved.

He "deserved" to be killed?

Even if you believe that Wilson's actions were reasonable under the circumstances, you're a complete piece of #### for suggesting an unarmed 18 yr old "deserved" to die for a few bad decisions.

This is garbage. If said 18 year old is 280 pounds and 6'8" and physically assualting a police officer, trying to take away his weapon...then heck yes he got what he deserved. Age is virtually meaningless next to the other facts.

Tired of this garbage. Protestors who turn violent and destroy property. Thugs being presented as victims and cops being castrated for doing their job. This isn't the case to attempt to prove or discuss institutional racism. It's a case of a bad kid who made a huge mistake and paid for it with his life.

Did the kid just grow 4 inches? I understand hair and nails continue to grow for a brief time after death, but bones, 4 inches?

 

[timschochet]

Hey, has anyone seen a police corruption poll since the 1987 one in Chicago? The one that found that 3/4 of police admitted to regularly bending the truth to get probable cause, and 1/5 had witnessed another officer using excessive force? I think it's the same one that found that about half of officers agreed with judges throwing out police testimony as unreliable.

Most major Departments have worked exceedingly hard over the last quarter of a century to root out such corruption. Whether a 27 year old study from a notoriously corrupt department has relevance today, who can say. I would not argue that any Department has achieved perfection. I would hope that nearly all have come a long ways since those days. I have, however, seen anecdotal evidence that the Departments in N.Y. Chicago. Miami, New Orleans, and especially Los Angeles, all of who very publicly touted their reforms, have fallen somewhat short of their goals in establishing public confidence. When you have literally thousands, and even 10's of thousands in a Department there are going to be some corrupt individuals who will abuse there authority. There will also be incompetents. Both are dangerous.I had a mentor of sorts. He use to say: Never ascribe to evil motives that which can just as easily be explained by incompetence because the former is rare, but the latter, rampant.

i have always believed that what your mentor says is true. It's why I am so skeptical of conspiracy theories.

 

[Henry Ford]

Hey, has anyone seen a police corruption poll since the 1987 one in Chicago? The one that found that 3/4 of police admitted to regularly bending the truth to get probable cause, and 1/5 had witnessed another officer using excessive force? I think it's the same one that found that about half of officers agreed with judges throwing out police testimony as unreliable.

Most major Departments have worked exceedingly hard over the last quarter of a century to root out such corruption. Whether a 27 year old study from a notoriously corrupt department has relevance today, who can say. I would not argue that any Department has achieved perfection. I would hope that nearly all have come a long ways since those days. I have, however, seen anecdotal evidence that the Departments in N.Y. Chicago. Miami, New Orleans, and especially Los Angeles, all of who very publicly touted their reforms, have fallen somewhat short of their goals in establishing public confidence. When you have literally thousands, and even 10's of thousands in a Department there are going to be some corrupt individuals who will abuse there authority. There will also be incompetents. Both are dangerous.I had a mentor of sorts. He use to say: Never ascribe to evil motives that which can just as easily be explained by incompetence because the former is rare, but the latter, rampant.

I agree wholeheartedly. That's why I'm asking for anything new on the study front.And the action itself - bending the truth to get probable cause, for instance - doesn't have to have evil motives. I think a lot of cops did that out of incompetence, too.

 

[timschochet]

What is it with all of these insults? Calling people moronic, ##### bags, P.O.S.? It's not funny. It's not illuminating. It's ugly and stupid.

A lot of people wonder (some hopefully!) what would make me leave the FFA and these type of discussions, it's all the insults. Not the funny ones- I can appreciate those and sometimes I partake. It's these ugly stupid serious insults that make everyone of these discussions worse. I don't need to read those. I don't enjoy them.

Teabagger

i thought that term was funny at first but when people took offense I stopped using it.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

If you go to the Department of Justice Home page and type in the search query "Police Corruption" you will get a plethora or responses.

 

[Hang 10]

So some people are still convinced Wilson lied even though he had 7 witnesses(3 almost word for word) back up his story?

Where did you get this? Exactly how many witnesses testified to the charge and exactly how many of them are consistent with each other and with Wilson? I will change my mind and stop arguing in this thread if you are correct; please provide a link.

That's what Rudy Giuliani said on Meghan Kelly's show. I'm sure you would dismiss him as a crazy right winger though.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Wow, Tim has been busy in here. Did I miss anything good?

Did you add in his Knuckles and Bateman aliases?

Nope. I'm not a Tim alias.

 

[squistion]

So some people are still convinced Wilson lied even though he had 7 witnesses(3 almost word for word) back up his story?

Where did you get this? Exactly how many witnesses testified to the charge and exactly how many of them are consistent with each other and with Wilson? I will change my mind and stop arguing in this thread if you are correct; please provide a link.

That's what Rudy Giuliani said on Meghan Kelly's show.

Well, that obviously settles it.

 

[Hang 10]

So some people are still convinced Wilson lied even though he had 7 witnesses(3 almost word for word) back up his story?

Where did you get this? Exactly how many witnesses testified to the charge and exactly how many of them are consistent with each other and with Wilson? I will change my mind and stop arguing in this thread if you are correct; please provide a link.

That's what Rudy Giuliani said on Meghan Kelly's show.

Well, that obviously settles it.

Exactly. You edit out the second sentence but it was obviously true of you. But all the grand jury testimony will come out so you see how credible Rudy is in time.

 

[timschochet]

So some people are still convinced Wilson lied even though he had 7 witnesses(3 almost word for word) back up his story?

Where did you get this? Exactly how many witnesses testified to the charge and exactly how many of them are consistent with each other and with Wilson? I will change my mind and stop arguing in this thread if you are correct; please provide a link.

That's what Rudy Giuliani said on Meghan Kelly's show. I'm sure you would dismiss him as a crazy right winger though.

Not at all. I like Rudi. But there's a lot of people going around throwing out misinformation about this incident on both sides. I have heard before what you wrote but haven't been able to confirm it at all. Believe me if I discovered that it were true that 3 witnesses testified to Brown charging Wilson at full speed and were consistent almost word for word with Wilson's testimony and each other's it would sway me. That's why I asked for a link.

 

[timschochet]

So some people are still convinced Wilson lied even though he had 7 witnesses(3 almost word for word) back up his story?

Where did you get this? Exactly how many witnesses testified to the charge and exactly how many of them are consistent with each other and with Wilson? I will change my mind and stop arguing in this thread if you are correct; please provide a link.

That's what Rudy Giuliani said on Meghan Kelly's show.

Well, that obviously settles it.

Exactly. You edit out the second sentence but it was obviously true of you. But all the grand jury testimony will come out so you see how credible Rudy is in time.

i thought it already came out.

 

[squistion]

So some people are still convinced Wilson lied even though he had 7 witnesses(3 almost word for word) back up his story?

Where did you get this? Exactly how many witnesses testified to the charge and exactly how many of them are consistent with each other and with Wilson? I will change my mind and stop arguing in this thread if you are correct; please provide a link.

That's what Rudy Giuliani said on Meghan Kelly's show.

Well, that obviously settles it.

Exactly. You edit out the second sentence but it was obviously true of you. But all the grand jury testimony will come out so you see how credible Rudy is in time.

Um, the grand jury testimony has come out and I doubt you have read all 4700 pages of transcripts. I haven't either, but I have not seen any summary of the witnesses' testimony that matches what Giuliani is claiming.

 

[Henry Ford]

If you go to the Department of Justice Home page and type in the search query "Police Corruption" you will get a plethora or responses.

I probably suck at searching. Not bringing up and studies like the Chicago one

 

[Hang 10]

Um, the grand jury testimony has come out and I doubt you have read all 4700 pages of transcripts. I haven't either, but I have not seen any summary of the witnesses' testimony that matches what Giuliani is claiming.

Well, than I'm sure it won't be long before Giuliani is contradicted, right?

 

[timschochet]

Um, the grand jury testimony has come out and I doubt you have read all 4700 pages of transcripts. I haven't either, but I have not seen any summary of the witnesses' testimony that matches what Giuliani is claiming.

Well, than I'm sure it won't be long before Giuliani is contradicted, right?

from a few summaries I've read he's already been contradicted.

 

[Henry Ford]

Um, the grand jury testimony has come out and I doubt you have read all 4700 pages of transcripts. I haven't either, but I have not seen any summary of the witnesses' testimony that matches what Giuliani is claiming.

Well, than I'm sure it won't be long before Giuliani is contradicted, right?

I think he's saying Rudi was already contradicted by every summary of testimony that's been released.

 

[squistion]

Um, the grand jury testimony has come out and I doubt you have read all 4700 pages of transcripts. I haven't either, but I have not seen any summary of the witnesses' testimony that matches what Giuliani is claiming.

Well, than I'm sure it won't be long before Giuliani is contradicted, right?

I think he's saying Rudi was already contradicted by every summary of testimony that's been released.

Correct.

 

[Hang 10]

Correct.

Link? I've read the NY times summary and they didn't put an exact number on the witnesses but they said the most credible ones backed Wilson.

 

[The General]

So some people are still convinced Wilson lied even though he had 7 witnesses(3 almost word for word) back up his story?

Where did you get this? Exactly how many witnesses testified to the charge and exactly how many of them are consistent with each other and with Wilson? I will change my mind and stop arguing in this thread if you are correct; please provide a link.

That's what Rudy Giuliani said on Meghan Kelly's show.

Well, that obviously settles it.

Exactly. You edit out the second sentence but it was obviously true of you. But all the grand jury testimony will come out so you see how credible Rudy is in time.

Um, the grand jury testimony has come out and I doubt you have read all 4700 pages of transcripts. I haven't either, but I have not seen any summary of the witnesses' testimony that matches what Giuliani is claiming.

I don't have the link but it was from the Washington Post IIRC it had around 4 witnesses saying the guy charged one was from the cop. It had another 6 or so saying he was moving towards the cop in some manner. It had another 5 or so that said he had hands up or was shot in the back one of those bring his friend.

 

[The General]

Are people still convinced the cop didn't know about the robbery at the time he came in contact with Brown?

 

[Henry Ford]

Correct.

Link? I've read the NY times summary and they didn't put an exact number on the witnesses but they said the most credible ones backed Wilson.

There was a grid linked earlier in this thread as to what the witnesses each testified to.