Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (1 Viewer)

[The Kerminator]

KingPrawn: You forgot to erase the evidence of your snarky comment to "johnnymac" a few comments earlier.

But either way, your belief that he is absolutely guilty is just as silly as those that say he is absolutely innocent. Maybe even sillier when you consider some of the major players in his first setup are still in play and planting evidence in this conviction (and the keys were planted...no other explanation is plausible).

No, I don't believe he is absolutely guilty. I did say a few posts up that their are some issues and in the previous post to you that there is very little doubt that Avery is guilty. I didn't say NO doubt, but very little doubt. That leaves the door open. But beyond a reasonable doubt? No. I agree there are issues with how the key got there but despite the defenses effort to suggest evidence was planted they have not produced one shred of evidence.

Maybe the key did fall out of the bookcase after they shook it as they testified. Reports are that the home was filthy and in a state you would find in a hoarders house. Key could very well be missed. If the key was in a pile of stuff it could have fallen out when that pile was moved or disturbed. I'm not suggesting that's what happened but it is plausible. It is also plausible that it was planted. But there are other explanations that are plausible if you keep an open mind.

 

[The Kerminator]

Here you go:

14 pieces of troubling evidence Netflix' "Making a Murderer" left outhttp://onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/evidenceagainstavery.html

7. Avery had drawn a torture chamber while in prison and was violent to other womenAccording to an Appleton Post Crescent article from March 9, 2006, "While he was in prison, Steven Avery planned the torture and killing of a young woman, new documents released Wednesday indicate. The allegations are included in 22 pages of court documents accompanying additional charges filed by Calumet County Dist. Atty. Ken Kratz. ... Kratz also included in Wednesday's filings statements from prisoners who served time with Avery at Green Bay Correctional Institution. They said Avery talked about and showed them diagrams of a torture chamber he planned to build when he was released."

Furthermore, reported the newspaper, "The filings also include statements from a woman, now 41, who said she was raped by Avery, who told her 'if she yelled or screamed there was going to be trouble.' There also is an affidavit from a girl who said she was raped by Avery. 'The victim's mother indicated that the victim does not want to speak about the sexual assault between her and Steven Avery because Steven Avery told her if she 'told anyone about their activities together he would kill her family,'" the filing said. According to the newspaper article, "The affidavit said Avery admitted to his fiancee that he had sexually assaulted the girl."

Note the part where it says From court filings

Did we hear anything about the second paragraph about the woman who claims she was raped by Avery? And the affidavit that says Avery admitted that he had sexually assaulted the girl?

Sure paints a different picture of Avery doesn't it?

You should check the article out. Maybe even keep an open mind about it.

It does. But one of the points is he had porn? Come on.

The sweat evidence was found weeks later. How does that happen when the battery was missing? Obviously someone went under the hood. How is the latch not tested immediately?

When you watch a documentary like this you usually expect an a mountain of bias on part of the filmmakers. In this case there's really not much. The rope to tie her? No dna.

As I said previously, gun to my head? He did it. I may even convict him. Brendan? Not sure. But not nearly enough to convict him. Kid is borderline handicapped.

I did find the point of the porn as unusual as well. But after thinking about it I can see it depending on the type of porn. If he did draw torture chambers while in prison and the porn is of torture I can see it being relevant. And then couple that with his purchase of hancuffs, etc.

 

[Sabertooth]

Did they have the drawing of the torture chamber? Was that submitted into evidence? I'd be interested to see that.

 

[Papa Georgio]

Steven Avery is a POS. No one is doubting that.

So are Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey.

If Avery is guilty the police are the ones who created the most reasonable doubt. The moment anyone involved with the civil suit was involved all evidence is put into question. So I trust zero evidence, zero.

I have no problem believing that SA would do this based on timing. Anyone capable of rape and murder do not think logically like the rest of society.

I do think reports that Avery raped/sexually assaulted a girl previously is important but in both directions. First against Avery obviously because it shows that he is a rapist. However, the police could easily be extra motivated to get this guy put away if they had knowledge of this sexual assault.

I don't like the ex-boyfriend even a little either but that doesn't make him guilty of anything.

I hope Avery is the one who did it for the sake of the Halbach family.

I have thought about it and my current thoughts about all of it are this. I figure society is a better place without SA in it. I also wish that every last person involved in the prosecution and investigation of the case be removed and never again be allowed to serve in any capacity in the judicial system.Go scorched Earth because those people are just as shady as the Avery's. Flush the world of everyone involved in the investigation and initial defense of Brendan Dassey.

Was it in this thread that I read that while in jail Avery would have Brendan's dad go bang his wife, Lori I think it was, and now they are married?

 

[simmonjm]

So you are saying he might be guilty? Hmmmmm.....would have never even thought of that possibility.

Thanks for your thoughtful contributions. Apparently you don't get out much. You should try venturing out from the FBG forums sometime. Not only are there some posters in this thread that don't think Avery is guilty, but there are a lot of people out there on other sites that believe Steven Avery is not guilty, based solely on the evidence presented on the show. They have no doubt he is innocent. You don't even have to go very far on the internet to find it. Just read the comments to some of the articles cited. Maybe you can start with reading the articles themselves. But then again, that would require you taking the time to educate yourself and take away from the time you have to make snarky contributions.

I think most reasonable people would say there is a probability that Avery is guilty. The question is to what level that doubt rises to. Is there reasonable doubt? Based solely on the series itself, there is beyond reasonable doubt. But if you take the time to explore it and as to what the series covers or does not cover, IMO there is very little doubt that Avery is guilty of murder.

Steven Avery could very well be guilty but I dont see how you can argue against him getting a new trial or having his guilty verdict vacated.

 

[simmonjm]

Steven Avery is a POS. No one is doubting that.

So are Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey.

If Avery is guilty the police are the ones who created the most reasonable doubt. The moment anyone involved with the civil suit was involved all evidence is put into question. So I trust zero evidence, zero.

I have no problem believing that SA would do this based on timing. Anyone capable of rape and murder do not think logically like the rest of society.

I do think reports that Avery raped/sexually assaulted a girl previously is important but in both directions. First against Avery obviously because it shows that he is a rapist. However, the police could easily be extra motivated to get this guy put away if they had knowledge of this sexual assault.

I don't like the ex-boyfriend even a little either but that doesn't make him guilty of anything.

I hope Avery is the one who did it for the sake of the Halbach family.

I have thought about it and my current thoughts about all of it are this. I figure society is a better place without SA in it. I also wish that every last person involved in the prosecution and investigation of the case be removed and never again be allowed to serve in any capacity in the judicial system.Go scorched Earth because those people are just as shady as the Avery's. Flush the world of everyone involved in the investigation and initial defense of Brendan Dassey.

Was it in this thread that I read that while in jail Avery would have Brendan's dad go bang his wife, Lori I think it was, and now they are married?

Scott Tadych has just as bad if not worse criminal record in regards to violence against women. Its a slippery slope when you start condemning people without due process.

 

[Morton Muffley]

Ive made an independent analysis based on the prosecution

Here is the timeline

-Theresa comes to Avery scrap and finds Steve waving his junk around

- She protests and he decides to rape her. He sees his Nephew bringing the mail over and decides to show him the birds and the bees.

- They then take turns raping and cutting off peices of her body, during which steve takes a phonecall from his fiance.

- During this rapid matchstick men cleaning session Steve opens an old cut on his finger.

- After cleaning up all the blood and semen he parks her car in his front yard and smears blood all over the cab. Whoops

- Now in an adrenaline fueled CSI HUD they decide to just burn her body 3 feet from the house

- next is the miracle evidence

Is this correct?

THIS was my thought while watching. It just makes no sense whatsoever. Maybe the prosecution laid out a better/different timeline in closing that we didn't see. Maybe one of the three "stubborn" jurors did a masterful job of bringing all these pieces together in a way the prosecution did not, but given the prosecution case I saw I could not convict.

I am 100% convinced evidence was planted and thus would vote not guilty.

Key: 99% planted, 1% legit

Bullet: 90% planted, 10% legit

Car: 35% planted, 50% colburn unlawful search of property, 15% legit

Blood in car: 25% planted, 75% legit

Bones: 10% planted (multiple burn sites? Burn her next door to witnesses?), 90% legit (stupid, but possible if he killed elsewhere and brought her back in her own car later)

My guess is Lenk is crooked; Colburn was hyper-committed/over zealous due deposition; kachinsky is incompetent/lazy/arrogant; FBI and blood testing woman working the typical conflict of interest and just got caught up in something they couldn't possibly see coming; Kratz is an egotistical assbag; defense lawyers got paid well but otherwise are NOT doing god's work as they might like us to believe; film-makers honestly believe Avery was railroaded (because a documentary about a POS guy, from a POS family, who is wrongfully accused of rape, gets released but then later commits a heinous crime sounds like a pretty good documentary to me and does NOT take a decade to construct!)...so, who did I miss?

As always, just my opinion.

 

[The Kerminator]

Ive made an independent analysis based on the prosecution

Here is the timeline

-Theresa comes to Avery scrap and finds Steve waving his junk around

- She protests and he decides to rape her. He sees his Nephew bringing the mail over and decides to show him the birds and the bees.

- They then take turns raping and cutting off peices of her body, during which steve takes a phonecall from his fiance.

- During this rapid matchstick men cleaning session Steve opens an old cut on his finger.

- After cleaning up all the blood and semen he parks her car in his front yard and smears blood all over the cab. Whoops

- Now in an adrenaline fueled CSI HUD they decide to just burn her body 3 feet from the house

- next is the miracle evidence

Is this correct?

THIS was my thought while watching. It just makes no sense whatsoever. Maybe the prosecution laid out a better/different timeline in closing that we didn't see. Maybe one of the three "stubborn" jurors did a masterful job of bringing all these pieces together in a way the prosecution did not, but given the prosecution case I saw I could not convict. I am 100% convinced evidence was planted and thus would vote not guilty.

Key: 99% planted, 1% legit

Bullet: 90% planted, 10% legit

Car: 35% planted, 50% colburn unlawful search of property, 15% legit

Blood in car: 25% planted, 75% legit

Bones: 10% planted (multiple burn sites? Burn her next door to witnesses?), 90% legit (stupid, but possible if he killed elsewhere and brought her back in her own car later)

My guess is Lenk is crooked; Colburn was hyper-committed/over zealous due deposition; kachinsky is incompetent/lazy/arrogant; FBI and blood testing woman working the typical conflict of interest and just got caught up in something they couldn't possibly see coming; Kratz is an egotistical assbag; defense lawyers got paid well but otherwise are NOT doing god's work as they might like us to believe; film-makers honestly believe Avery was railroaded (because a documentary about a POS guy, from a POS family, who is wrongfully accused of rape, gets released but then later commits a heinous crime sounds like a pretty good documentary to me and does NOT take a decade to construct!)...so, who did I miss?

As always, just my opinion.

Regarding the bullet, didn't it have Halbachs DNA on it? I am presuming blood. Would modern forensics be able to match the bullet with wounds?

 

[joffer]

Just started it, and I'm hooked. I'll obviously wait to read the thread until I'm done, just wanted to say that man these are some ugly people.

 

[bigmarc27]

Just finished ep 4 or 5. They just found the blood evidence where the seal was broken. This is crazy.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Ive made an independent analysis based on the prosecution

Here is the timeline

-Theresa comes to Avery scrap and finds Steve waving his junk around

- She protests and he decides to rape her. He sees his Nephew bringing the mail over and decides to show him the birds and the bees.

- They then take turns raping and cutting off peices of her body, during which steve takes a phonecall from his fiance.

- During this rapid matchstick men cleaning session Steve opens an old cut on his finger.

- After cleaning up all the blood and semen he parks her car in his front yard and smears blood all over the cab. Whoops

- Now in an adrenaline fueled CSI HUD they decide to just burn her body 3 feet from the house

- next is the miracle evidence

Is this correct?

THIS was my thought while watching. It just makes no sense whatsoever. Maybe the prosecution laid out a better/different timeline in closing that we didn't see. Maybe one of the three "stubborn" jurors did a masterful job of bringing all these pieces together in a way the prosecution did not, but given the prosecution case I saw I could not convict.

I am 100% convinced evidence was planted and thus would vote not guilty.

Key: 99% planted, 1% legit

Bullet: 90% planted, 10% legit

Car: 35% planted, 50% colburn unlawful search of property, 15% legit

Blood in car: 25% planted, 75% legit

Bones: 10% planted (multiple burn sites? Burn her next door to witnesses?), 90% legit (stupid, but possible if he killed elsewhere and brought her back in her own car later)

My guess is Lenk is crooked; Colburn was hyper-committed/over zealous due deposition; kachinsky is incompetent/lazy/arrogant; FBI and blood testing woman working the typical conflict of interest and just got caught up in something they couldn't possibly see coming; Kratz is an egotistical assbag; defense lawyers got paid well but otherwise are NOT doing god's work as they might like us to believe; film-makers honestly believe Avery was railroaded (because a documentary about a POS guy, from a POS family, who is wrongfully accused of rape, gets released but then later commits a heinous crime sounds like a pretty good documentary to me and does NOT take a decade to construct!)...so, who did I miss?

As always, just my opinion.

Don't agree with all of this, but like the overall take a lot. I am about 95% convinced that the blood evidence in the car was planted. The evidence box was broken into and a hole the size of a hyperdermic needle is found in the top of the valve? Come on. Also - I can only remember the "iffy" looking smear by the ignition - where else was it?

Agree that SA is a POS and likely guilty - just want the police to be more on the up and up. I am naive on these matters and total up and up police behavior may be impractical. I just don't know.

I do know that being on the wrong side of the system when they need to get you, means you are ####ed. If you are poor you are really ####ed. If you are even upper-middle class and can't afford to blow a few million on a high quality defense team - you are ####ed.

What does everyone here think about vigilante justice - like the old "Death Wish" movies? I mean if someone killed a member of your family and was going to going to get away with it - would you be capable of eliminating that person yourself?

 

[McGarnicle]

Finished the series this morning. Random thoughts/observations:

- The series clearly is slanted for the defense and paints Avery as a saint and a martyr. Yet he once set a cat on fire? Animal cruelty is a sign that someone might be a psychopath. Not saying he is one, just that it's a huge red flag imo. Also psychopaths are very good with charm and coming across as nice harmless folks, as he does. And is it true he told fellow inmates he would torture and kill women?? Why was that not mentioned?

- The pics of Avery's kids had my doubled over laughing. I kept thinking of the movie Idiocracy.

- There was plenty of reasonable doubt in Steven's trial: the key and bullet fragment magically appearing, the sheriff calling in the license plate before the vehicle was found, lack of blood in the trailer, and Manitowoc county being so heavily involved despite the clear conflict of interest. More than enough questions to acquit imo. I don't understand 7 jurors initially voting to acquit and then changing their minds. But obviously the viewer of this series coming in cold has a much different perspective than they did.

- The way Dassey was manipulated and coerced into confessing makes me sick and angry. I hope he gets a new trial.

 

[joffer]

These cops really come off like morons, especially Kocharski or whatever it was. What a meathead.

 

[McGarnicle]

These cops really come off like morons, especially Kocharski or whatever it was. What a meathead.

I noticed he made sure he was the one to escort Avery to the car that took him away to prison. Such a scumbag.

 

[joffer]

Holy ####. I just got to the part in the closing arguments where the prosecutor said (in essence) "Well, if he's guilty, then who cares if the cops planted the key?"

That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. I mean they just spent 3 weeks painstakingly providing endless testimony to try to prove that no evidence was tampered with or planted and talking about how disgusting it was for the defense to even try to smear the good name of these officers and then he ends with that little tidbit? How can you possibly let any doubt creep into the jurors minds that the key might have been planted? The entire case hinges on making the jury believe that the evidence was not tampered with, if you think they planted the key, then they obviously had the ability and opportunity to plant the rest of the evidence.

That was unbelievable. Can't believe this jury convicted. I'd like to think there was a lot the documentary didn't show, but who knows.Really powerful series and really well done. I usually don't like this kind of thing but I was riveted.

The case certainly smells, but I'm having a hard time imagining the timeline if this was a conspiracy to frame him. It certainly hinges on the cops finding the body first. I'll have to think on it some more.

 

[joffer]

Craziest thing was the prosecution not really giving their theory of where/how he killed her until the closing argument. That has to be really rare? I guess as long as they don't introduce new evidence its kosher. If I'm on the jury, that would set off alarms.

 

[Sabertooth]

The biggest moron was Couche. The guy who drew the composite sketch "you know that but I don't know that." Didn't he also say something about DNA evidence can be tampered with too?

 

[derek245583]

Couple things/opinions:

1- The insurance company wasnt going to pay out when SA sued for wrongful conviction? So 36 million (or some number) was coming out of the individual's pockets? Ya, I can see some seriously pissed off police officers if that was the case.

2- Lets say one juror held out and said "not guilty, no way I am changing my mind". What happens? So 11 jurors say guilty and 1 says not guilty...

3- I am quite sure there was some stuff they didnt show on this documentary, but based on what I saw this is the very definition of "reasonable doubt". And if you convict on "first degree homicide" lol at not convicting on mutilating a corpse.

4- I have no idea if he did it or not, but I am 99% positive he would have crushed that car into an unrecognizable piece of metal had he done it. He cleaned up his house and garage to standards better than a doctor's office and just forgot about the rav4? Oh wait, he covered it up with a few twigs like he was playing hide and seek with his 3 year old.

 

[jamny]

Wow, guilty!

Thought for sure that Steve would walk. Why did the defense even bring up Brendan's story in closing arguments?

Brendan trial next. Riveting television!

 

[Sabertooth]

So Kratz says there is a drawing Avery made that was a torture chamber? Why do I doubt that's true. There has to be a copy of that in evidence right....because Kratz would never fabricate something.

 

[leftcoastguy7]

I'm of the opinion that Brendan played a large role in her death. Maybe not rape/slicing her throat, but a big help anyway.

It's not normal for 15yo boys to have spontaneous crying fits at birthday parties. The visions of something were seriously tearing him up. It IS normal for a 15yo to relay some of his torment to a younger cousin.

I believe he did head to his uncle's to hand over the mis-delivered letter. (How's that for bad luck?). Of course Brendan completely lied on the stand and didn't even mention that.

 

[jamny]

Four episodes in. As crazy as this case is, I'm probably way off, but I think Brendan killed her by himself

Seriously?

Just finished it and yes, I still believe it. Although probably not by himself. But I still don't rule it out.

I didn't know anything about this case so I'm completely biased by this show. I'll definitely look more into it with this thread and other places.

But I'm 99% sure, at this point, that Steven didn't do it. So someone else did. Unless it's someone completely out of the picture, it would have to be someone close to the scene. I believed the prosecution when they said that Brendan came forward out of guilt. I think the little girl, his cousin, was completely lying on the stand. He gave indications of his involvement and it went from there. He was trapped. Maybe it all happened with his brother, Bobby, and not Steven. He might have told Brendan to #### about it and he cracked.

Did they do a sweep of Brendan's house?

Did they ever ask Steven about a bonfire that night? I don't remember that in the show.

Looking forward to digging deeper but that was an incredible show.

I would either make a horrible juror or a really good one. My bet is the former. I'm too easily swayed.

I have a random stupid question.

How do they decide which side of the courtroom the defense and prosecution sits on? They were on the opposite sides for the 2 trials.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Finally finished this.

Honestly, if I was on the jury and knew only what they knew, I would have convicted Brendan too. His repudiation of his confession didn't seem credible even in the sympathetic documentary, and the fact that he's creepy as hell makes the whole rape/murder story more believable. I still think his confession is one of the more stomach-turning things I've seen though, but of course the jury didn't get to see all of that.

 

[Sabertooth]

The conversation Brendan has with his mom where he says he was there for "some of it" was interesting to me. Gun to my head, I'd say Steven did it, called Brendan over to establish an alibi and the kid saw a foot or something in the fire. But who knows really. I think the cops tried to make damn sure he was convicted, which they didn't even need to do, and ultimately might set him free.

 

[avoiding injuries]

What I can't get over is:

1) the evidence box being broken and the vial of SA's blood being punctured, with his blood conveniently appearing in the car and nowhere else

2) the phone call that had Colburn describing Theresa's car without having any way of knowing it unless he was looking at it, he was blatantly caught lying about it

3) the key being discovered in plain view eight days after the search began

It's extremely difficult to look at those three instances as not the work of Manitowowc County, specifically Lenk.

From there it seems to me like all bets are off. It's like the cops realized there wasn't any evidence and had to create it. If SA really did what he was charged of, I can't fathom there being a need to create evidence, it should have been everywhere.

I agree with all of this. Add that the cops were being sued at the same time and SA was in line to receive millions, and I can't believe he did it. Sorry, but when the cops get caught with the what happened in the first crime, they lose all benefit of the doubt from me.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Perhaps this has been discussed, and if so please gloss over.

Did they discuss the claim that Theresa had requested to her boss to never be sent there again since she found him creepy?

Did they discuss the claim that the day of the murder that Avery called Theresa twice using *67 to block the call and then called her a third time after time of death without *67 and how he pretended to be a relative of his to lure her there and that she was requested to be the one to come?

 

[IC FBGCav]

Watched episode one at 9pm yesterday and finished early this morning. I am pretty confindent that neither were involved with Teresa's death. Evidenced was planted. All around disgusting.

Huge for me was the sherriff that didn't believe Avery was guilty of the rape charge after the DNA evidence. He believed some how Avery tampered with police evidence but to suggest the police could tamper with evidence is insane.

When backed in a corner even supposedly good people will do terrible things and justify it because they think they are the "good guys".

 

[Sabertooth]

If that is the case, why did she go at all. Also one would think her family could have filed a wrongful death suit against Auto Trader.

 

[Sabertooth]

Watched episode one at 9pm yesterday and finished early this morning. I am pretty confindent that neither were involved with Teresa's death. Evidenced was planted. All around disgusting.

Huge for me was the sherriff that didn't believe Avery was guilty of the rape charge after the DNA evidence. He believed some how Avery tampered with police evidence but to suggest the police could tamper with evidence is insane.

When backed in a corner every supposedly good people will do terrible things and justify it because they think they are the "good guys".

Yep. Think about cheating spouses. Totally good honest people justify actions all the time. Heck people don't think they are stealing when they don't pay rent, or bills. But they are.

 

[identikit]

Perhaps this has been discussed, and if so please gloss over.

Did they discuss the claim that Theresa had requested to her boss to never be sent there again since she found him creepy?

Did they discuss the claim that the day of the murder that Avery called Theresa twice using *67 to block the call and then called her a third time after time of death without *67 and how he pretended to be a relative of his to lure her there and that she was requested to be the one to come?

I don't recall any of this being shown.

Interesting.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Perhaps this has been discussed, and if so please gloss over.

Did they discuss the claim that Theresa had requested to her boss to never be sent there again since she found him creepy?

Did they discuss the claim that the day of the murder that Avery called Theresa twice using *67 to block the call and then called her a third time after time of death without *67 and how he pretended to be a relative of his to lure her there and that she was requested to be the one to come?

I don't recall any of this being shown.

Interesting.

The show has responded to these claims now.

Here

If he'd like to put together a documentary and try to discredit us in some way, he's welcome to do that. We're not going to be pulled into re-litigating the Halbach case with him." Added filmmaker Moira Demos: "I guess I would ask Kratz what he would trade it for. We tried to choose what we thought was Kratz's strongest evidence pointing toward Steven's guilt, the things he talked about at his press conferences, the things that were really damning toward Steven. That's what we put in. The things I've heard listed as things we've left out seem much less convincing of guilt than Teresa's DNA on a bullet or her remains in his backyard."

Not sure how in ten episodes you couldn't at least make a mention of Avery calling her twice using *67 the day she was killed. I find that detail incredibly important. I think the statement that they would have had to leave something like the bullet out in place of it to be baloney.

 

[parasaurolophus]

If that is the case, why did she go at all. Also one would think her family could have filed a wrongful death suit against Auto Trader.

She probably didn't think she was going to get murdered. As far as a suit, that isn't really at the forefront of most people's minds. Not sure why it is one of the first things you would think of.

 

[IC FBGCav]

I would bet a huge percent of my net worth that Colburn found the suv on 11.3 and that the aunt was told where to find it. She was acting on the stand not testifing.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

I would bet a huge percent of my net worth that Colburn found the suv on 11.3 and that the aunt was told where to find it. She was acting on the stand not testifing.

Oh hell ya.

 

[leftcoastguy7]

"Of course I'm dangerous, I'm police. I can do terrible things to people... with impunity."

Rust Cohle - True Detective

 

[prosopis]

Thanks for calling this out. I just watched the first two episodes, and it's pretty good so far.

I also have watched the first two episodes. Maybe I heard to much about how great this series is but I am not impressed. I will probably finish watching it because every one is talking about it but I feel it is a waste of time.

 

[Otis]

My gut says he didn't do it. Too much was on the line for him and there was a lot of funny business going on that wasn't reported by the police.

I don't think he did it. He just doesn't speak like a guilty guy. And there were clearly suspicious circumstances with the cops. But one think that sticks with me is the phone call with his girlfriend in jail that took place right in the middle of when all this was supposedly going down. He sounded cool as a cucumber and happy and normal and like every other phone call. I don't see how he sounds so matter of fact if he's got a woman strapped to his bed and dying at that moment. It's a close call, but I don't believe he did it. It doesn't add up.

We all agree that the nephew didn't do it right? That is another head scratcher. The whole thing. If he's innocent that could be the ultimate bad beat of all time. Sorry you're stupid, go waste away in prison.

 

[Otis]

Thanks for calling this out. I just watched the first two episodes, and it's pretty good so far.

I also have watched the first two episodes. Maybe I heard to much about how great this series is but I am not impressed. I will probably finish watching it because every one is talking about it but I feel it is a waste of time.

Episodes 4-6 or so were the best. Bit of a letdown towards the end.

 

[Otis]

There was one part that felt like a huge gotcha at the time I watched it, and they never mentioned it again. It was the end of maybe episode 4 or 5 or so, where the sheriff radios in the plates and should have no reason to know what kind of car it is at that point, and yet he says to the operator "it's a ninety [] Rav 4 right?" I didn't completely follow the circumstances, but the way it was presented, it seemed like he was really busted badly there (like he is calling in the missing vehicle plates while he is staring at the missing vehicle).

What am I missing?

 

[Mors Venit]

There was one part that felt like a huge gotcha at the time I watched it, and they never mentioned it again. It was the end of maybe episode 4 or 5 or so, where the sheriff radios in the plates and should have no reason to know what kind of car it is at that point, and yet he says to the operator "it's a ninety [] Rav 4 right?" I didn't completely follow the circumstances, but the way it was presented, it seemed like he was really busted badly there (like he is calling in the missing vehicle plates while he is staring at the missing vehicle).

What am I missing?

A deep conspiracy by the local police, prosecuters and judge to overlook it to get their man.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

There was one part that felt like a huge gotcha at the time I watched it, and they never mentioned it again. It was the end of maybe episode 4 or 5 or so, where the sheriff radios in the plates and should have no reason to know what kind of car it is at that point, and yet he says to the operator "it's a ninety [] Rav 4 right?" I didn't completely follow the circumstances, but the way it was presented, it seemed like he was really busted badly there (like he is calling in the missing vehicle plates while he is staring at the missing vehicle).

What am I missing?

Exactly. FJB nailed it earlier.

FatUncleJerryBussFootballguy

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Posted Today, 03:39 PM

I would bet a huge percent of my net worth that Colburn found the suv on 11.3 and that the aunt was told where to find it. She was acting on the stand not testifing.

 

[cockroach]

And apparently Colburn's family has a tow business

 

[wadegarrett]

Just watched Ep 1 last night. From what I've heard this gets better, right?

 

[Daywalker]

The access and footage alone make this doc incredible.

 

[Cjw_55106]

I'm not sure where I stand with Avery. The only thing I am sure of, is some of these government workers are crooked.

It's hard for me to see how anyone can be ademant about his guilt or innocence? Definitely seemed to be enough doubt to have gotten an acquittal.

 

[Otis]

The access and footage alone make this doc incredible.

I agree with this. The footage is fantastic. If you want to know what a real trial is like, they do a wonderful job of it. The film makers apparently had unfettered access to nearly everything. You get to see the actual trial, the testimony, and the cross examinations. By the way, Avery's lawyers are fantastic. I was in dork-out lawyer mode through portions pumping my fists and cheering with some of their crosses. Really, really effective and smart guys who are damn good at their craft, was fun to watch and learn from them.

The other thing I thought was really well done is the way the film also goes through the procedural points, and the various motions, and not only explaining what the motions are but why they matter. It really was a great overall look at what it's like to be a trial lawyer; not just in the criminal context, but so many of the issues and examinations play out more or less the same in any civil case.

Overall I was really impressed with the job they did presenting the trial and surrounding proceedings.

 

[RUSF18]

Perhaps this has been discussed, and if so please gloss over.

Did they discuss the claim that Theresa had requested to her boss to never be sent there again since she found him creepy?

Did they discuss the claim that the day of the murder that Avery called Theresa twice using *67 to block the call and then called her a third time after time of death without *67 and how he pretended to be a relative of his to lure her there and that she was requested to be the one to come?

I don't recall any of this being shown.

Interesting.

The show has responded to these claims now.Here

If he'd like to put together a documentary and try to discredit us in some way, he's welcome to do that. We're not going to be pulled into re-litigating the Halbach case with him."

Added filmmaker Moira Demos: "I guess I would ask Kratz what he would trade it for. We tried to choose what we thought was Kratz's strongest evidence pointing toward Steven's guilt, the things he talked about at his press conferences, the things that were really damning toward Steven. That's what we put in. The things I've heard listed as things we've left out seem much less convincing of guilt than Teresa's DNA on a bullet or her remains in his backyard."

Not sure how in ten episodes you couldn't at least make a mention of Avery calling her twice using *67 the day she was killed. I find that detail incredibly important. I think the statement that they would have had to leave something like the bullet out in place of it to be baloney.

I've only seen the details about the *67 listed in an article without any actual verification. Is that proven somewhere?

Didn't we hear a voicemail that she left, to start the series, confirming her upcoming appointment to meet Avery to take the pictures? She didn't sound very nervous/reluctant.

 

[McGarnicle]

The access and footage alone make this doc incredible.

I agree with this. The footage is fantastic. If you want to know what a real trial is like, they do a wonderful job of it. The film makers apparently had unfettered access to nearly everything. You get to see the actual trial, the testimony, and the cross examinations. By the way, Avery's lawyers are fantastic. I was in dork-out lawyer mode through portions pumping my fists and cheering with some of their crosses. Really, really effective and smart guys who are damn good at their craft, was fun to watch and learn from them.

The other thing I thought was really well done is the way the film also goes through the procedural points, and the various motions, and not only explaining what the motions are but why they matter. It really was a great overall look at what it's like to be a trial lawyer; not just in the criminal context, but so many of the issues and examinations play out more or less the same in any civil case.

Overall I was really impressed with the job they did presenting the trial and surrounding proceedings.

I agree with this to the extent that they were passionate for Avery's innocence and were 1000 times better than a public defender, but I don't know if they fully explained to the jury the conflict of interest and the animus those sheriffs had toward Avery. If they had, then I think the mysterious key being discovered and the license plate being called in would've been bombshells of reasonable doubt.On the other hand, apparently the show omitted some key pieces of evidence against Avery, which is pretty disappointing.

 

[Otis]

The access and footage alone make this doc incredible.

I agree with this. The footage is fantastic. If you want to know what a real trial is like, they do a wonderful job of it. The film makers apparently had unfettered access to nearly everything. You get to see the actual trial, the testimony, and the cross examinations. By the way, Avery's lawyers are fantastic. I was in dork-out lawyer mode through portions pumping my fists and cheering with some of their crosses. Really, really effective and smart guys who are damn good at their craft, was fun to watch and learn from them.

The other thing I thought was really well done is the way the film also goes through the procedural points, and the various motions, and not only explaining what the motions are but why they matter. It really was a great overall look at what it's like to be a trial lawyer; not just in the criminal context, but so many of the issues and examinations play out more or less the same in any civil case.

Overall I was really impressed with the job they did presenting the trial and surrounding proceedings.

I agree with this to the extent that they were passionate for Avery's innocence and were 1000 times better than a public defender, but I don't know if they fully explained to the jury the conflict of interest and the animus those sheriffs had toward Avery. If they had, then I think the mysterious key being discovered and the license plate being called in would've been bombshells of reasonable doubt.On the other hand, apparently the show omitted some key pieces of evidence against Avery, which is pretty disappointing.

It was a six week trial. Pretty impossible to capture everything that matters in 10 hours, along with the story, interviews, and everything else happening outside the trial. I'm assuming many things we did not see in the series, like the point you raise, were explained in great detail at some point during trial.

 

[SIDA!]

They found the key on the 8th search but the first Lenk was present for I believe.

Just finished the series and am way behind on this thread. But this is incorrect.

Lenk found the key on I think the second or third time thru. It definitely wasn't the first because the defense set it up but qquestioning the other deputy tasked with watching Lenk.

Then they questioned a different deputy for the search when the key was found and he said it was possible that the key was planted by Lenk in the sense that it is possible aliens planted the key.