Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (2 Viewers)

[cockroach]

Don't buy into any of the conspiracy stuff at all. Can't imagine that any of the county cops would try to frame the guy for a murder.

You really can't imagine that? After they already framed him for rape? Really?

The head sheriff (and his arresting officer in 85) refuses to admit he's even innocent of the first crime.

I can't imagine how anyone could give those crooked Fers the benefit of doubt.

Did we watch the same documentary?

Probably not a huge stretch to say that the cop copying Avery's mugshot and then showing that drawing to the woman was essentially framing him.

It also explains why they ignored all the signals/evidence that they had the wrong guy in subsequent years. They didn't care that they had the wrong guy, they had their guy.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Don't buy into any of the conspiracy stuff at all. Can't imagine that any of the county cops would try to frame the guy for a murder.

You really can't imagine that? After they already framed him for rape? Really?

The head sheriff (and his arresting officer in 85) refuses to admit he's even innocent of the first crime.

I can't imagine how anyone could give those crooked Fers the benefit of doubt.

Did we watch the same documentary?

Probably not a huge stretch to say that the cop copying Avery's mugshot and then showing that drawing to the woman was essentially framing him.

It is a stretch and certainly should not be something to just throw out there as a fact. Basically what you are arguing is that their sketch influenced the victim so much that she picked Avery out of a lineup and swore up and down it was him. "Absolutely positive".

His own attorneys argue that the sketch looks more like Avery's old mugshot than it does compared to Avery at the time of the crime. It isn't some Van Gogh masterpiece that should have put any sort of burned image in her brain. The lineup consisted of several guys with facial hair and exposed foreheads instead of the bangs Avery had in the lineup.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Don't buy into any of the conspiracy stuff at all. Can't imagine that any of the county cops would try to frame the guy for a murder.

You really can't imagine that? After they already framed him for rape? Really?

The head sheriff (and his arresting officer in 85) refuses to admit he's even innocent of the first crime.

I can't imagine how anyone could give those crooked Fers the benefit of doubt.

Did we watch the same documentary?

Probably not a huge stretch to say that the cop copying Avery's mugshot and then showing that drawing to the woman was essentially framing him.

It also explains why they ignored all the signals/evidence that they had the wrong guy in subsequent years. They didn't care that they had the wrong guy, they had their guy.

I think it is far more likely they truly believed they had the right guy and were incredibly lazy when the victim was so confident about her ID. I think this made them lazy. Definitely poor police work and follow up, but a frame job is such a reach here.

 

[Hooper31]

I think it is far more likely they truly believed they had the right guy and were incredibly lazy when the victim was so confident about her ID. I think this made them lazy. Definitely poor police work and follow up, but a frame job is such a reach here.

This is where I'm at too. I get the frustration and wanting to blame someone for the initial wrong conviction, but that's the victim IMO that should take the heat. When she testified she went into detail about how she took her time to remember small details about the perps face. If I were a cop or a juror I would be very convinced by this testimony regardless of what happened with the sketch artist.

 

[cockroach]

Don't buy into any of the conspiracy stuff at all. Can't imagine that any of the county cops would try to frame the guy for a murder.

You really can't imagine that? After they already framed him for rape? Really?

The head sheriff (and his arresting officer in 85) refuses to admit he's even innocent of the first crime.

I can't imagine how anyone could give those crooked Fers the benefit of doubt.

Did we watch the same documentary?

Probably not a huge stretch to say that the cop copying Avery's mugshot and then showing that drawing to the woman was essentially framing him.

It also explains why they ignored all the signals/evidence that they had the wrong guy in subsequent years. They didn't care that they had the wrong guy, they had their guy.

I think it is far more likely they truly believed they had the right guy and were incredibly lazy when the victim was so confident about her ID. I think this made them lazy. Definitely poor police work and follow up, but a frame job is such a reach here.

The victim wasn't confident about her ID. She was manipulated into fingering Avery both times.

First time: They showed her a photograph of Avery that Peterson just drew a picture from

2nd time: Avery was the only person that was in both lineups. No negative control group, so to speak.

And funny how they were lazy then, but so proactive on the 2nd case being on the scene when they shouldn't be.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I think it is far more likely they truly believed they had the right guy and were incredibly lazy when the victim was so confident about her ID. I think this made them lazy. Definitely poor police work and follow up, but a frame job is such a reach here.

This is where I'm at too. I get the frustration and wanting to blame someone for the initial wrong conviction, but that's the victim IMO that should take the heat. When she testified she went into detail about how she took her time to remember small details about the perps face. If I were a cop or a juror I would be very convinced by this testimony regardless of what happened with the sketch artist.

On the police report does 506-507 mean 5'6"-5'7" ?

 

[mitchh1124]

Frame job is not a reach

It doesn't take 8 days to find evidence laying next to a shoe. Next to a book shelf they ripped apart checking.

Where is all her blood?

And you are saying he wiped the keys of her DNA but left his....?

And cleaned up every drop of blood in the garage, but didn't clean the car of blood?

 

[cockroach]

I think it is far more likely they truly believed they had the right guy and were incredibly lazy when the victim was so confident about her ID. I think this made them lazy. Definitely poor police work and follow up, but a frame job is such a reach here.

This is where I'm at too. I get the frustration and wanting to blame someone for the initial wrong conviction, but that's the victim IMO that should take the heat. When she testified she went into detail about how she took her time to remember small details about the perps face. If I were a cop or a juror I would be very convinced by this testimony regardless of what happened with the sketch artist.

The victim came to the cops at one point and told them that they might have the wrong guy.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Frame job is not a reach

It doesn't take 8 days to find evidence laying next to a shoe. Next to a book shelf they ripped apart checking.

Where is all her blood?

And you are saying he wiped the keys of her DNA but left his....?

And cleaned up every drop of blood in the garage, but didn't clean the car of blood?

We are talking about the first conviction that he was exonerated of.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I think it is far more likely they truly believed they had the right guy and were incredibly lazy when the victim was so confident about her ID. I think this made them lazy. Definitely poor police work and follow up, but a frame job is such a reach here.

This is where I'm at too. I get the frustration and wanting to blame someone for the initial wrong conviction, but that's the victim IMO that should take the heat. When she testified she went into detail about how she took her time to remember small details about the perps face. If I were a cop or a juror I would be very convinced by this testimony regardless of what happened with the sketch artist.

The victim came to the cops at one point and told them that they might have the wrong guy.

Before or after she was absolutely positive during her testimony at trial?

 

[bentley]

Don't buy into any of the conspiracy stuff at all. Can't imagine that any of the county cops would try to frame the guy for a murder.

You really can't imagine that? After they already framed him for rape? Really?

The head sheriff (and his arresting officer in 85) refuses to admit he's even innocent of the first crime.

I can't imagine how anyone could give those crooked Fers the benefit of doubt.

Did we watch the same documentary?

Probably not a huge stretch to say that the cop copying Avery's mugshot and then showing that drawing to the woman was essentially framing him.

It is a stretch and certainly should not be something to just throw out there as a fact. Basically what you are arguing is that their sketch influenced the victim so much that she picked Avery out of a lineup and swore up and down it was him. "Absolutely positive".His own attorneys argue that the sketch looks more like Avery's old mugshot than it does compared to Avery at the time of the crime. It isn't some Van Gogh masterpiece that should have put any sort of burned image in her brain. The lineup consisted of several guys with facial hair and exposed foreheads instead of the bangs Avery had in the lineup.

I absolutely believe this. False memories are very powerful. Listen to the How Stuff Works podcast on the 80s Satanism scare where the police eventually convinced a pastor that he committed all kinds of crimes by wearing him down over several days of questioning.

 

[cockroach]

I think it is far more likely they truly believed they had the right guy and were incredibly lazy when the victim was so confident about her ID. I think this made them lazy. Definitely poor police work and follow up, but a frame job is such a reach here.

This is where I'm at too. I get the frustration and wanting to blame someone for the initial wrong conviction, but that's the victim IMO that should take the heat. When she testified she went into detail about how she took her time to remember small details about the perps face. If I were a cop or a juror I would be very convinced by this testimony regardless of what happened with the sketch artist.

The victim came to the cops at one point and told them that they might have the wrong guy.

Before or after she was absolutely positive during her testimony at trial?

Do you think they would have followed up on it either way? How many suspects were interrogated in that case?

 

[cockroach]

His own attorneys argue that the sketch looks more like Avery's old mugshot than it does compared to Avery at the time of the crime. It isn't some Van Gogh masterpiece that should have put any sort of burned image in her brain. The lineup consisted of several guys with facial hair and exposed foreheads instead of the bangs Avery had in the lineup.

But she saw the drawing that's a supposed "composite sketch" before she saw the initial picture lineup. It was not difficult to go immediately to Averys mug shot from there.

Next she had a lineup where she's basically looking for Avery as she's already pointed him out from his mugshot.

And if they were not forcing Avery on her, where are the other suspects? How many alibi's did Avery have for the time frame? How could the jury convict when she testified her assailant had underwear and it's a well known fact in Manitowac county that S. Avery doesn't even OWN any underwears.

 

[John Bender]

jeez - we're arguing about that first case where there is no grey line about how ####ed he got now?

 

[parasaurolophus]

I think it is far more likely they truly believed they had the right guy and were incredibly lazy when the victim was so confident about her ID. I think this made them lazy. Definitely poor police work and follow up, but a frame job is such a reach here.

This is where I'm at too. I get the frustration and wanting to blame someone for the initial wrong conviction, but that's the victim IMO that should take the heat. When she testified she went into detail about how she took her time to remember small details about the perps face. If I were a cop or a juror I would be very convinced by this testimony regardless of what happened with the sketch artist.

The victim came to the cops at one point and told them that they might have the wrong guy.

Before or after she was absolutely positive during her testimony at trial?

Do you think they would have followed up on it either way? How many suspects were interrogated in that case?

I have no idea. I already said they were pretty lazy with that case. I just think it is pretty ridiculous to throw around statements of fact that it was a frame job.

 

[parasaurolophus]

jeez - we're arguing about that first case where there is no grey line about how ####ed he got now?

getting screwed does not equal getting framed.

I admit he was screwed. I dont think he was framed. Please explain how that isn't a valid opinion.

 

[cockroach]

jeez - we're arguing about that first case where there is no grey line about how ####ed he got now?

Some people think he was accidentally ####ed.

 

[John Bender]

jeez - we're arguing about that first case where there is no grey line about how ####ed he got now?

getting screwed does not equal getting framed.

I admit he was screwed. I dont think he was framed. Please explain how that isn't a valid opinion.

yeah no thanks

just crazy we've devolved to arguing about one of the bigger screw jobs in the american justice history as a point of order here.

Grasping at straws for the pro popo guys IMO. It's pretty crazy where we've come now.

 

[SWC]

hey parapantsaluffagus what is it like working for manitowoc sheriff department just wondering take that to the bank brohan

 

[bucksoh]

Through 8 episodes. Feels like Avery is guilty. Don't buy into any of the conspiracy stuff at all. Can't imagine that any of the county cops would try to frame the guy for a murder. For me planting a piece of evidence to help convict a guy you are convinced did a crime is a long long way from these cops killing the girl, burning her remains, and planting all the evidence to frame this guy. If you believe they are framing Avery you're saying that the cops killed her and set this all up. I just don't buy that.

Can see the trainwreck coming in the 2nd trial. Going to be awful that Brendan goes to jail. Would be interesting to talk to those jurors. The filmmakers have presented the idea that the police consistently just fed Brendan lines and Brendan just repeated what they wanted to hear. In order to convict the jurors had to have seen this differently.

I have not seen it yet - but I don't think the bold is true. Cops can plant evidence if they are convinced of a person's guilt - that does not mean the cops committed the underlying crime - just that they feel like they are in a better position than the court system to adjudicate guilt, so once they find the guilty party, its all about making sure everyone else thinks the same thing.

Agreed. I was wrong to take it that far.

For me, to think that there was conspiracy here involves buying into so many events that you have to label them as outright evil. I think it's much more plausible that these were just cops trying to do their jobs.

I think they proved how evil they were in the first trial. Even when he was found not-guilty the police wouldn't admit it.

 

[Hooper31]

Even when he was found not-guilty the police wouldn't admit it.

That was one guy. Saying "the police" sounds like a blanket indictment.

 

[bucksoh]

Got a few more episodes in. Almost done.

I feel like the defense took the wrong tack with the DNA lab tech that messed the test up. At least in the court room, they didn't mention once that she could've accidentally contaminated the sample with Theresa Halbach's DNA. She was distracted and careless enough to get her own DNA in there, how do we know she didn't get Theresa's in there as well. I think the jury will look at the inconclusive protocol as more of a technicality. "Yeah she wasn't supposed to say it's a match, but we know Theresa's DNA was in there so it wasn't a big deal". Instead they tried to make her look malicious in trying to follow a command to make sure the DNA came back as a match. The jury is going to be less likely to go with that theory IMO.

It seems very unlikely that Theresa was killed in the trailer or garage. That garage was filthy, there's no way they cleaned up all of the blood evidence if she died there. There would've been a splatter on a piece of equipment or on the wall somewhere that he missed in the cleanup.

The bones in the quarry thing still bugs me. It makes no sense to burn the body outside of your house in a tire fire, then transfer a couple of bones somewhere else. Assuming he wasn't framed, that would mean that there's a 2nd dead body out there that no one seems to care about.

She was shot with a .22. Highly likely there would be no splatter. More likely just a small puddle of blood, if that. And that could easily be cleaned up with paint thinner, gasoline and bleach, as previously posted. BD also showed up at his mom's house with bleach stained clothes and told her he was helping SA clean up the garage. A .22 is a small caliber bullet. It is used primarily to hunt small game such as squirrels or rabbits. If it is used because it does little damage to squirrels how much damage do you think there would be to a human body?

I think the bones in the quarry were checked in to. There is a well-known missing person case in the Fox Valley area (Laurie Depies) that was open for 23 years until a prisoner confessed to it in 2011. Interestingly enough, she has a resemblance to Teresa Halbach. IIRC they checked in to that possibility. I think the bones were later determined to be non-human.

ETA Just checked the time-frame on when Depies was missing and when Avery was in jail. Doesn't match up. It may have been another missing woman at the time.

So, when Kratz says she was shot 10 plus times in the garage you still think that is an easy cleanup. Or are you basing your comment on the belief that there was only one shot?And do you believe she was dismembered and put in the fire pit or just thrown in their whole?

I don't know. Was she shot 10 plus times or were there 10 shots fired? Maybe all or only some hit. I don't think there was only one shot. Either way, I don't think there would be splatter. More likely blood contained to a pool. There were slabs of the floor removed and submitted as evidence.

Have no idea on the second part. More likely put in there whole.

And with that, I'm done with talking about it. I don't feel comfortable speculating about a murdered victim's remains on the internet or message board as if it were some sort of entertainment. I'll talk about other details of the case but as far as the gruesome details I don't think it's right to speculate.

I believe you have been speculating from the very beginning. But it been very enjoyable so keep posting.

 

[JZilla]

Guess I shouldn't be surprised this thread is ten tons of stupid

 

[bucksoh]

Even when he was found not-guilty the police wouldn't admit it.

That was one guy. Saying "the police" sounds like a blanket indictment.

. Can u show me one cop who admitted they made a mistake in 85. TIA.

I really must have missed that, when I watched it.

 

[Das Boot]

Even when he was found not-guilty the police wouldn't admit it.

That was one guy. Saying "the police" sounds like a blanket indictment.

I thought I remembered two different people from the police that said that in the documentary.

 

[Dickies]

jeez - we're arguing about that first case where there is no grey line about how ####ed he got now?

getting screwed does not equal getting framed.I admit he was screwed. I dont think he was framed. Please explain how that isn't a valid opinion.

I thought composite sketches were supposed to be made sitting with the victim as they describe the person. Not copy a picture beforehand and show it to them. That was one of the worst police drawings too and the dude framed it in his office.

 

[Hooper31]

Watched all ten episodes. Don't feel so bad for Avery, but the kid got screwed major IMO. Last episode does a great job of making Len K look like a completely unethical doosh. Can't understand why he can't get a second trial.

 

[cockroach]

Even when he was found not-guilty the police wouldn't admit it.

That was one guy. Saying "the police" sounds like a blanket indictment.

That "one guy" was the head Sheriff... those kinds of attitudes trickle down (or else you don't last long in that department.)

 

[cockroach]

jeez - we're arguing about that first case where there is no grey line about how ####ed he got now?

getting screwed does not equal getting framed.I admit he was screwed. I dont think he was framed. Please explain how that isn't a valid opinion.

I thought composite sketches were supposed to be made sitting with the victim as they describe the person. Not copy a picture beforehand and show it to them. That was one of the worst police drawings too and the dude framed it in his office.

Well at least they have a sense of humor. It was a double entendre of sorts because they framed the picture that they used to help frame him

 

[cockroach]

Here's a couple dozen or so things left out of this horribly biased documentary that helped the DEFENSE, with corresponding sources. Discuss

From this reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/40dquo/prodefense_information_that_was_left_out_of_mam/

• Dean Strang recalled that one of the investigators involved in finding DNA under the hood of Halbach's car admitted to not changing gloves after handling evidence inside her car. Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SGwXEJ_0X2A Reddit discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3ztcch/wow_investigator_didnt_change_gloves_after/
• Remember Sherry Culhane, the expert who testified about Halbach's DNA being on the bullet, except she contaminated her control sample, but since she'd used the whole sample (leaving nothing for the defense to test), they went ahead and treated it as conclusive? In 1985, she testified in the Penny Beernsten case that a hair belonging to Steven was found on Penny's shirt. Source: http://lacrossetribune.com/news/state-and-regional/wi/dna-expert-who-helped-exonerate-avery-testifies-in-murder-trial/article_5dc71915-0a95-5438-bf29-e168b655a855.html and http://www.convolutedbrian.com/testimony-notes-26-feb-2007.html and http://www.convolutedbrian.com/the-poster-child-effect.html
• "Buting showed that Culhane delayed the DNA test that freed Avery for a year" and "Culhane’s error rate was shown to be the highest of her group although her analysis time was seventy percent of the other analysts. She explained this by stating she did more samples than others." Source: http://www.convolutedbrian.com/testimony-notes-26-feb-2007.html
• Investigators never dusted the Toyota key (with Steven's DNA) for fingerprints. http://fox6now.com/2016/01/07/march-7-2007-search-for-steven-averys-fingerprints-crime-lab-expert-testifies/
• Strang said Manitowoc County Coroner Debra Kakatsch would testify that she was "walled off entirely" from the crime scene by Calumet County authorities. By state statute, she should have been allowed to investigate early reports of possible human bones being found outside of Avery's trailer, he said.
• Strang said the coroner had also received calls from the Manitowoc County executive and the county's top attorney not to investigate the case. Source: http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/witness-says-she-saw-victim-later-b99642985z1-363818721.html
• Culhane testified that the amount of Avery's DNA on Halbach's hood latch (which could have been blood) was very small, similar to what you would get from rubbing Avery's toothbrush on it, or from the unchanged gloves of the tech who handled blood evidence inside the car and then touched the hood. https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/406qfo/it_was_not_proven_that_the_dna_on_the_hood_latch/
• Buting wanted to show jury anonymous letter mailed to MTSC, found in Green Bay Post Office, which claimed a body had been burned in the smelter at 3:am on Friday. Sources: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1683&dat=20070308&id=UuMqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pEUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6227,3242420&hl=en and http://fromwhisperstor.fr.yuku.com/topic/22752/Steven-Avery-Murder-Trial-John-Lees-Trial-Blog#.Vo7kgR7DPIU (Note that this last link comes from a website that, irritatingly, replaces every instance of "###" with "DorkFish", so Fassbender comes out "FDorkfishbender. Why, website, why???)
• Clerk Lynn Zigmunt testifies that she had a log everyone was supposed to sign when they went into the evidence room, but "some people were making exceptions for people. We've tightened up on that." Source: http://fox6now.com/2016/01/07/march-6-2007-who-cut-the-evidence-tape-that-should-have-sealed-steven-averys-blood/
• Blaine Dassey testified that his brother, Bobby, was asleep when he got home from school around 3:40pm, contradicting Bobby's testimony that he got up at 2:30pm and saw Teresa headed towards Steven's trailer. Source: http://fox6now.com/2016/01/07/february-27-2007-another-nephew-of-steven-avery-takes-the-stand/
• Dean Strang says Steven's jail conversations were taped for 16 months and he never implicated himself, and this - along with the fact that in his experience, people "mentally equipped as Steven is" always end up confessing or implicating themselves - makes him think Steven may be "stone cold innocent." Source: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/01/08/making-a-murderer-attorney-dean-strang-reveals-what-sparked-horrible-sense-steven-avery-may-be-stone-cold-innocent/
• Now Sheriff (then "under sheriff") Robert Hermann is president of another salvage company in the region, and was working at it before he went into law enforcement in the 80s. http://cleveland-auto-sales-salvage.cleveland.wi.amfibi.directory/us/c/18826455-cleveland-auto-sales-salvage and http://www.htrnews.com/story/news/local/2014/07/01/sheriff-robert-hermann-recalls-career-highlights-changes/11944007/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=
• Dean Strang stated they had a forensic anthropologist at trial who testified that an open fire wouldn't have generated enough heat to burn a body in the way that those bones were destroyed, but it didn’t make the documentary. Dean Strang on Megyn Kelly, the Kelly File 1/5/2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIBAoe8hNPk
• In between 3:30 - 4PM, A propane delivery truck driver (John Leurquin) saw a green SUV leaving the Avery property at but couldn’t identify driver or if it was a male or female. He delivers propane for Valders Co-op. Usually fuels up near Avery property at 3:30 for about half an hour http://www.wsaw.com/news/headlines/6386482.html
• “Police said she was wearing blue jeans, a white button-down shirt and a summer jacket when she was last seen. Schmitz would indicate that Halbach was at his residence at approximately 1:30 p.m. Was there for approximately ten minutes. Was wearing a white shirt, waist -- waist-length jacket, and blue jeans. (Day 4 of Dassey Trial) Zipperer would indicate that Halbach was at her residence between approximately 2 to 2:30 p.m. Was there for approximately ten minutes. Was wearing a white top, waist-length jacket, and blue jeans. (Day 4 of Dassey Trial) Bobby Dassey said when he saw Teresa Halbach photographing the van Avery was selling Oct. 31, 2005, she was wearing a knee-length coat and slacks. http://fromwhisperstor.fr.yuku.com/topic/22752/Steven-Avery-Murder-Trial-John-Lees-Trial-Blog#.VpLqvJMrLq2 and http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8ob2esw3Gd4J:archive.postcrescent.com/article/99999999/APC0101/511060418/Car-missing-woman-found&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1&vwsrc=0
• Steven filed an interesting post-conviction document naming other suspects the police should have looked into. Please do not take this as Steven actually accusing any of these men; it's just meant to show a judge that there were other viable suspects besides Steven, and that should create reasonable doubt. http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wkow/newsdocs/avery%20document%20page%2023%20+.pdf
• William Newhouse, a gun expert with the Wisconsin State Crime Lab, said he couldn't conclusively link a bullet found in a crack in Avery's garage to a .22-caliber rifle seized from his bedroom. (He could only confirm that it was definitely a bullet from a .22 caliber rifle). There was no DNA on the gun, no blood blow back that you’d get from shooting someone at that close range and no blood mist / spatter around the garage that would also be present had someone been shot in the garage. http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/prosecutors-link-gun-found-in-room-to-bullet-with-halbachs-dna-b99643001z1-363819121.html
• Strang proved and Bobby Dassey agreed that the joke about hiding a body that Steve supposedly said to Bobby Dassey and Mike Osmundson on Nov 3 before Teresa was reported missing couldn't have been made on Nov 3, because Bobby Dassey was working that night. If it did happen, it could have only been made Nov 4 after Teresa's disappearance was public. http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/testimony-unclear-on-timing-of-joke-b99643032z1-363820361.html The documentary showed Steven's defense team questioning the date of the alleged joke but left out the evidence of why it couldn't have been heard by Dassey and Osmunson before Teresa's disappearance was public.
• The defense eliminated as many problematic jurors as the law allowed, but they still ended up with a MCSD sheriff's father and a county clerk's husband. http://www.people.com/article/steven-avery-juror-says-two-jurors-related-county-employees
• On the 'Kelly Files' interview, Dean Strang mentioned that there were little drops off deer blood all over Averys garage, essentially debunking the theory that they could have cleaned all the blood evidence out of the garage, since had they cleaned it that thoroughly, there wouldn't have been any deer blood: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIBAoe8hNPk
• Colborn testified that he "roughly" shook the bookend table when the key fell out, yet if you look at the photo, there is a remote and some paper sitting on top and things sitting neatly inside. https://imgur.com/a/vgV9B
• Manitowoc County Public Safety minutes for 12-6-05 show 744 Hours + $2,800 of Sheriff time billed in first month of Halbach investigation. 744 hours/24 hours = 31, which means during a month Manitowoc was supposed to be recused from the investigation, they are saying they put in the equivalent of someone working every single minute on this investigation. Plus, DA Mark Rohrer is in these meetings, discussing the case when they're supposed to have turned it over to Kratz. Source: http://www.co.manitowoc.wi.us/upload/3/PublicSafetyMinutes12-6-05.pdf
• On the leg irons/handcuffs from Avery's house. They tested those for DNA and found a mixture of DNA from 2 or more people. They confirmed Avery to be a source of one of the matches. Most importantly, they excluded Teresa's DNA as a match. https://www.dropbox.com/s/6pjd6kpq5o5mx40/Dassey%20Trial%20Transcript.pdf?dl=0 Day 4/8/07.

 

[cockroach]

a couple of pictures of the key and a pic of the manual showing it was the "sub key" that wouldn't open the glove box

https://imgur.com/a/vgV9B

 

[cockroach]

leg "irons":

https://i.imgur.com/Yji2IKs.jpg

 

[Billy Bats]

<p>

Here's a couple dozen or so things left out of this horribly biased documentary that helped the DEFENSE, with corresponding sources. Discuss

From this reddit thread:

Spoiler

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/40dquo/prodefense_information_that_was_left_out_of_mam/

• Dean Strang recalled that one of the investigators involved in finding DNA under the hood of Halbach's car admitted to not changing gloves after handling evidence inside her car. Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SGwXEJ_0X2A Reddit discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3ztcch/wow_investigator_didnt_change_gloves_after/
• Remember Sherry Culhane, the expert who testified about Halbach's DNA being on the bullet, except she contaminated her control sample, but since she'd used the whole sample (leaving nothing for the defense to test), they went ahead and treated it as conclusive? In 1985, she testified in the Penny Beernsten case that a hair belonging to Steven was found on Penny's shirt. Source: http://lacrossetribune.com/news/state-and-regional/wi/dna-expert-who-helped-exonerate-avery-testifies-in-murder-trial/article_5dc71915-0a95-5438-bf29-e168b655a855.html and http://www.convolutedbrian.com/testimony-notes-26-feb-2007.html and http://www.convolutedbrian.com/the-poster-child-effect.html
• "Buting showed that Culhane delayed the DNA test that freed Avery for a year" and "Culhanes error rate was shown to be the highest of her group although her analysis time was seventy percent of the other analysts. She explained this by stating she did more samples than others." Source: http://www.convolutedbrian.com/testimony-notes-26-feb-2007.html
• Investigators never dusted the Toyota key (with Steven's DNA) for fingerprints. http://fox6now.com/2016/01/07/march-7-2007-search-for-steven-averys-fingerprints-crime-lab-expert-testifies/
• Strang said Manitowoc County Coroner Debra Kakatsch would testify that she was "walled off entirely" from the crime scene by Calumet County authorities. By state statute, she should have been allowed to investigate early reports of possible human bones being found outside of Avery's trailer, he said.
• Strang said the coroner had also received calls from the Manitowoc County executive and the county's top attorney not to investigate the case. Source: http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/witness-says-she-saw-victim-later-b99642985z1-363818721.html
• Culhane testified that the amount of Avery's DNA on Halbach's hood latch (which could have been blood) was very small, similar to what you would get from rubbing Avery's toothbrush on it, or from the unchanged gloves of the tech who handled blood evidence inside the car and then touched the hood. https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/406qfo/it_was_not_proven_that_the_dna_on_the_hood_latch/
• Buting wanted to show jury anonymous letter mailed to MTSC, found in Green Bay Post Office, which claimed a body had been burned in the smelter at 3:am on Friday. Sources: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1683&dat=20070308&id=UuMqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pEUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6227,3242420&hl=en and http://fromwhisperstor.fr.yuku.com/topic/22752/Steven-Avery-Murder-Trial-John-Lees-Trial-Blog#.Vo7kgR7DPIU (Note that this last link comes from a website that, irritatingly, replaces every instance of "###" with "DorkFish", so Fassbender comes out "FDorkfishbender. Why, website, why???)
• Clerk Lynn Zigmunt testifies that she had a log everyone was supposed to sign when they went into the evidence room, but "some people were making exceptions for people. We've tightened up on that." Source: http://fox6now.com/2016/01/07/march-6-2007-who-cut-the-evidence-tape-that-should-have-sealed-steven-averys-blood/
• Blaine Dassey testified that his brother, Bobby, was asleep when he got home from school around 3:40pm, contradicting Bobby's testimony that he got up at 2:30pm and saw Teresa headed towards Steven's trailer. Source: http://fox6now.com/2016/01/07/february-27-2007-another-nephew-of-steven-avery-takes-the-stand/
• Dean Strang says Steven's jail conversations were taped for 16 months and he never implicated himself, and this - along with the fact that in his experience, people "mentally equipped as Steven is" always end up confessing or implicating themselves - makes him think Steven may be "stone cold innocent." Source: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/01/08/making-a-murderer-attorney-dean-strang-reveals-what-sparked-horrible-sense-steven-avery-may-be-stone-cold-innocent/
• Now Sheriff (then "under sheriff") Robert Hermann is president of another salvage company in the region, and was working at it before he went into law enforcement in the 80s. http://cleveland-auto-sales-salvage.cleveland.wi.amfibi.directory/us/c/18826455-cleveland-auto-sales-salvage and http://www.htrnews.com/story/news/local/2014/07/01/sheriff-robert-hermann-recalls-career-highlights-changes/11944007/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=
• Dean Strang stated they had a forensic anthropologist at trial who testified that an open fire wouldn't have generated enough heat to burn a body in the way that those bones were destroyed, but it didnt make the documentary. Dean Strang on Megyn Kelly, the Kelly File 1/5/2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIBAoe8hNPk
• In between 3:30 - 4PM, A propane delivery truck driver (John Leurquin) saw a green SUV leaving the Avery property at but couldnt identify driver or if it was a male or female. He delivers propane for Valders Co-op. Usually fuels up near Avery property at 3:30 for about half an hour http://www.wsaw.com/news/headlines/6386482.html
• Police said she was wearing blue jeans, a white button-down shirt and a summer jacket when she was last seen. Schmitz would indicate that Halbach was at his residence at approximately 1:30 p.m. Was there for approximately ten minutes. Was wearing a white shirt, waist -- waist-length jacket, and blue jeans. (Day 4 of Dassey Trial) Zipperer would indicate that Halbach was at her residence between approximately 2 to 2:30 p.m. Was there for approximately ten minutes. Was wearing a white top, waist-length jacket, and blue jeans. (Day 4 of Dassey Trial) Bobby Dassey said when he saw Teresa Halbach photographing the van Avery was selling Oct. 31, 2005, she was wearing a knee-length coat and slacks. http://fromwhisperstor.fr.yuku.com/topic/22752/Steven-Avery-Murder-Trial-John-Lees-Trial-Blog#.VpLqvJMrLq2 and http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8ob2esw3Gd4J:archive.postcrescent.com/article/99999999/APC0101/511060418/Car-missing-woman-found&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1&vwsrc=0
• Steven filed an interesting post-conviction document naming other suspects the police should have looked into. Please do not take this as Steven actually accusing any of these men; it's just meant to show a judge that there were other viable suspects besides Steven, and that should create reasonable doubt. http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wkow/newsdocs/avery%20document%20page%2023%20+.pdf
• William Newhouse, a gun expert with the Wisconsin State Crime Lab, said he couldn't conclusively link a bullet found in a crack in Avery's garage to a .22-caliber rifle seized from his bedroom. (He could only confirm that it was definitely a bullet from a .22 caliber rifle). There was no DNA on the gun, no blood blow back that youd get from shooting someone at that close range and no blood mist / spatter around the garage that would also be present had someone been shot in the garage. http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/prosecutors-link-gun-found-in-room-to-bullet-with-halbachs-dna-b99643001z1-363819121.html
• Strang proved and Bobby Dassey agreed that the joke about hiding a body that Steve supposedly said to Bobby Dassey and Mike Osmundson on Nov 3 before Teresa was reported missing couldn't have been made on Nov 3, because Bobby Dassey was working that night. If it did happen, it could have only been made Nov 4 after Teresa's disappearance was public. http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/testimony-unclear-on-timing-of-joke-b99643032z1-363820361.html The documentary showed Steven's defense team questioning the date of the alleged joke but left out the evidence of why it couldn't have been heard by Dassey and Osmunson before Teresa's disappearance was public.
• The defense eliminated as many problematic jurors as the law allowed, but they still ended up with a MCSD sheriff's father and a county clerk's husband. http://www.people.com/article/steven-avery-juror-says-two-jurors-related-county-employees
• On the 'Kelly Files' interview, Dean Strang mentioned that there were little drops off deer blood all over Averys garage, essentially debunking the theory that they could have cleaned all the blood evidence out of the garage, since had they cleaned it that thoroughly, there wouldn't have been any deer blood: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIBAoe8hNPk
• Colborn testified that he "roughly" shook the bookend table when the key fell out, yet if you look at the photo, there is a remote and some paper sitting on top and things sitting neatly inside. https://imgur.com/a/vgV9B
• Manitowoc County Public Safety minutes for 12-6-05 show 744 Hours + $2,800 of Sheriff time billed in first month of Halbach investigation. 744 hours/24 hours = 31, which means during a month Manitowoc was supposed to be recused from the investigation, they are saying they put in the equivalent of someone working every single minute on this investigation. Plus, DA Mark Rohrer is in these meetings, discussing the case when they're supposed to have turned it over to Kratz. Source: http://www.co.manitowoc.wi.us/upload/3/PublicSafetyMinutes12-6-05.pdf
• On the leg irons/handcuffs from Avery's house. They tested those for DNA and found a mixture of DNA from 2 or more people. They confirmed Avery to be a source of one of the matches. Most importantly, they excluded Teresa's DNA as a match. https://www.dropbox.com/s/6pjd6kpq5o5mx40/Dassey%20Trial%20Transcript.pdf?dl=0 Day 4/8/07.

So much fail. I'm pretty sure the only thing that the prosecution is 110% sure of is that Theresa was on Avery's property.

 

[Sabertooth]

You'd have to think Sherry Culhane is a bit nervous. Didn't realize she was involved in the first case.

 

[matttyl]

And if he was or wasn't wearing gloves why didn't any of his blood dna come up on the latch or battery case area?

Is there any reason to assume the car was parked and the battery removed while he was still bleeding? 5 days elapsed between the killing and the discovery of the car.

Don't know if it's been talked about - but how is her date/time of death known? I don't want to sound too gruesome or anything, but she could have been held captive or something for a few days. I think you can say that 5 days elapsed between when she was last seen and the discovery of the car, but not between her death and the discovery of the car.

 

[matttyl]

And if he was or wasn't wearing gloves why didn't any of his blood dna come up on the latch or battery case area?

Is there any reason to assume the car was parked and the battery removed while he was still bleeding? 5 days elapsed between the killing and the discovery of the car.

I suppose it is possible that he bled in the car on the day of the killing and then later moved the car after that...but that seems like a bit of a stretch.

You are basically saying that even after at least a night to sleep on it where he dismembered and burned a body to get rid of evidence and got rid of all traces of the victims DNA...everywhere...that he couldn't formulate a better plan to dispose of the vehicle or hide it better?

I have been kicking around a theory in my head that maybe she wasn't even killed that day/night. But...I haven't gotten to far with it. It all stems from my belief that she was never killed or assaulted in either the trailer or the garage. And if you believe that...where did it happen? I don't think she was killed in her van unless it was just strangulation with some blunt head trauma. Otherwise there would have been more blood in my mind.

He could have stashed the car closer to his house sometime shortly after the murder, then moved it to it's final spot later, possibly even later that evening, but once he had stopped bleeding. The proximity to the crusher suggests to me that maybe he did plan to crush her car but had to wait for the right opportunity so as not to arouse suspicion. He might well have had that time if his brother hadn't granted searchers access to the yard.

I believe the documentary said that SA was using the crusher the day before the RAV4 was found (but we don't know if the RAV4 was where they found it that day).

 

[Outnumbered]

Wow...so much to say, but I'll leave it at this . . . there were simply FAR too many legitimate questions and inconsistencies left unanswered/unaddressed to convict these two men and lock them up for what will essentially be their lives.

The burden was clearly never on the State...and that is a shame and downright scary, frankly.

 

[parrot]

And if he was or wasn't wearing gloves why didn't any of his blood dna come up on the latch or battery case area?

Is there any reason to assume the car was parked and the battery removed while he was still bleeding? 5 days elapsed between the killing and the discovery of the car.

I suppose it is possible that he bled in the car on the day of the killing and then later moved the car after that...but that seems like a bit of a stretch.

You are basically saying that even after at least a night to sleep on it where he dismembered and burned a body to get rid of evidence and got rid of all traces of the victims DNA...everywhere...that he couldn't formulate a better plan to dispose of the vehicle or hide it better?

I have been kicking around a theory in my head that maybe she wasn't even killed that day/night. But...I haven't gotten to far with it. It all stems from my belief that she was never killed or assaulted in either the trailer or the garage. And if you believe that...where did it happen? I don't think she was killed in her van unless it was just strangulation with some blunt head trauma. Otherwise there would have been more blood in my mind.

He could have stashed the car closer to his house sometime shortly after the murder, then moved it to it's final spot later, possibly even later that evening, but once he had stopped bleeding. The proximity to the crusher suggests to me that maybe he did plan to crush her car but had to wait for the right opportunity so as not to arouse suspicion. He might well have had that time if his brother hadn't granted searchers access to the yard.

I believe the documentary said that SA was using the crusher the day before the RAV4 was found (but we don't know if the RAV4 was where they found it that day).

Is "using the crusher" a one man job, or is there maybe a guy on the loader and one on the crusher? My guess is probably the latter. And how are the cars to be crushed selected? Most salvage yards don't just randomly crush things, they crush cars without much salvage value. Steven Avery crushing a nice looking RAV 4 would have raised a few eyeballs even among his own family. Also crushing a car doesn't get rid of it, it just makes it flat.

 

[blend]

someone earlier in this thread who either works in a salvage yard or family owns one -- and I think he said he's actually been to the Avery's said that the car crusher is easily a one man job.

 

[parrot]

And if he was or wasn't wearing gloves why didn't any of his blood dna come up on the latch or battery case area?

Is there any reason to assume the car was parked and the battery removed while he was still bleeding? 5 days elapsed between the killing and the discovery of the car.

Don't know if it's been talked about - but how is her date/time of death known? I don't want to sound too gruesome or anything, but she could have been held captive or something for a few days. I think you can say that 5 days elapsed between when she was last seen and the discovery of the car, but not between her death and the discovery of the car.

Well obviously I think her body was in the fire on Halloween.

 

[parrot]

someone earlier in this thread who either works in a salvage yard or family owns one -- and I think he said he's actually been to the Avery's said that the car crusher is easily a one man job.

The question is not whether it can be done with one man, the question is whether or not that is SOP, and how much attention would someone doing it otherwise attract. In my experience jobs like these usually use at least two people because operators don't like crawling up and down from a loader all day.

 

[matttyl]

Don't buy into any of the conspiracy stuff at all. Can't imagine that any of the county cops would try to frame the guy for a murder.

You really can't imagine that? After they already framed him for rape? Really?

The head sheriff (and his arresting officer in 85) refuses to admit he's even innocent of the first crime.

I can't imagine how anyone could give those crooked Fers the benefit of doubt.

I was wondering re the bolded - could the defense attorney have asked the judge to "treat the witness as hostile" (or whatever the term is)? I mean, the man was proven innocent - and the sheriff wouldn't acknowledge it. Could he have asked that all of his testimony been stricken from the record, or something - because he's apparently can not comprehend truth. I just think the defense should have made much more of that.

 

[matttyl]

a couple of pictures of the key and a pic of the manual showing it was the "sub key" that wouldn't open the glove box

https://imgur.com/a/vgV9B

Holy crap, where did the other end of that key cord come from?!

 

[matttyl]

And if he was or wasn't wearing gloves why didn't any of his blood dna come up on the latch or battery case area?

Is there any reason to assume the car was parked and the battery removed while he was still bleeding? 5 days elapsed between the killing and the discovery of the car.

I suppose it is possible that he bled in the car on the day of the killing and then later moved the car after that...but that seems like a bit of a stretch.

You are basically saying that even after at least a night to sleep on it where he dismembered and burned a body to get rid of evidence and got rid of all traces of the victims DNA...everywhere...that he couldn't formulate a better plan to dispose of the vehicle or hide it better?

I have been kicking around a theory in my head that maybe she wasn't even killed that day/night. But...I haven't gotten to far with it. It all stems from my belief that she was never killed or assaulted in either the trailer or the garage. And if you believe that...where did it happen? I don't think she was killed in her van unless it was just strangulation with some blunt head trauma. Otherwise there would have been more blood in my mind.

He could have stashed the car closer to his house sometime shortly after the murder, then moved it to it's final spot later, possibly even later that evening, but once he had stopped bleeding. The proximity to the crusher suggests to me that maybe he did plan to crush her car but had to wait for the right opportunity so as not to arouse suspicion. He might well have had that time if his brother hadn't granted searchers access to the yard.

I believe the documentary said that SA was using the crusher the day before the RAV4 was found (but we don't know if the RAV4 was where they found it that day).

Is "using the crusher" a one man job, or is there maybe a guy on the loader and one on the crusher? My guess is probably the latter. And how are the cars to be crushed selected? Most salvage yards don't just randomly crush things, they crush cars without much salvage value. Steven Avery crushing a nice looking RAV 4 would have raised a few eyeballs even among his own family. Also crushing a car doesn't get rid of it, it just makes it flat.

I think it's been said it's a one man job (just would take that one guy a bit longer). And I understand it just makes it flat - but you were the one who brought up the crusher.

 

[playin4beer]

someone earlier in this thread who either works in a salvage yard or family owns one -- and I think he said he's actually been to the Avery's said that the car crusher is easily a one man job.

The question is not whether it can be done with one man, the question is whether or not that is SOP, and how much attention would someone doing it otherwise attract. In my experience jobs like these usually use at least two people because operators don't like crawling up and down from a loader all day.

Car crushing can be a one man job.... Loader with 20' fork puts the car into the crusher... Loader operator has a remote to operate the crusher..

Is it usually more than a one man job?? Yes.. Can it be done fairly easily with one guy?? Yes..

Will it attract attention?? Depends.. Avery Auto is HUGE, massive yard.. If nobody was around on a Sunday afternoon? Steven could have made quick work of the Rav 4.. But you don't make it disappear by crushing one car..

You crush 30-40 and bury the Rav 4 in the middle.. Once it goes to the shredder, it's gone forever..

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/B8CDNY/truck-load-of-crushed-car-bodies-B8CDNY.jpg

 

[matttyl]

And if he was or wasn't wearing gloves why didn't any of his blood dna come up on the latch or battery case area?

Is there any reason to assume the car was parked and the battery removed while he was still bleeding? 5 days elapsed between the killing and the discovery of the car.

Don't know if it's been talked about - but how is her date/time of death known? I don't want to sound too gruesome or anything, but she could have been held captive or something for a few days. I think you can say that 5 days elapsed between when she was last seen and the discovery of the car, but not between her death and the discovery of the car.

Well obviously I think her body was in the fire on Halloween.

Do we know if there were any fires from November 1 till when SA was arrested? Was there just that one at that location?

 

[parrot]

And if he was or wasn't wearing gloves why didn't any of his blood dna come up on the latch or battery case area?

Is there any reason to assume the car was parked and the battery removed while he was still bleeding? 5 days elapsed between the killing and the discovery of the car.

I suppose it is possible that he bled in the car on the day of the killing and then later moved the car after that...but that seems like a bit of a stretch.

You are basically saying that even after at least a night to sleep on it where he dismembered and burned a body to get rid of evidence and got rid of all traces of the victims DNA...everywhere...that he couldn't formulate a better plan to dispose of the vehicle or hide it better?

I have been kicking around a theory in my head that maybe she wasn't even killed that day/night. But...I haven't gotten to far with it. It all stems from my belief that she was never killed or assaulted in either the trailer or the garage. And if you believe that...where did it happen? I don't think she was killed in her van unless it was just strangulation with some blunt head trauma. Otherwise there would have been more blood in my mind.

He could have stashed the car closer to his house sometime shortly after the murder, then moved it to it's final spot later, possibly even later that evening, but once he had stopped bleeding. The proximity to the crusher suggests to me that maybe he did plan to crush her car but had to wait for the right opportunity so as not to arouse suspicion. He might well have had that time if his brother hadn't granted searchers access to the yard.

I believe the documentary said that SA was using the crusher the day before the RAV4 was found (but we don't know if the RAV4 was where they found it that day).

Is "using the crusher" a one man job, or is there maybe a guy on the loader and one on the crusher? My guess is probably the latter. And how are the cars to be crushed selected? Most salvage yards don't just randomly crush things, they crush cars without much salvage value. Steven Avery crushing a nice looking RAV 4 would have raised a few eyeballs even among his own family. Also crushing a car doesn't get rid of it, it just makes it flat.

I think it's been said it's a one man job (just would take that one guy a bit longer). And I understand it just makes it flat - but you were the one who brought up the crusher.

I think it's reasonable to believe he may have planned to crush the RAV 4 at some point. I also think it's reasonable to believe he hadn't had a decent chance yet.

 

[parrot]

And if he was or wasn't wearing gloves why didn't any of his blood dna come up on the latch or battery case area?

Is there any reason to assume the car was parked and the battery removed while he was still bleeding? 5 days elapsed between the killing and the discovery of the car.

Don't know if it's been talked about - but how is her date/time of death known? I don't want to sound too gruesome or anything, but she could have been held captive or something for a few days. I think you can say that 5 days elapsed between when she was last seen and the discovery of the car, but not between her death and the discovery of the car.

Well obviously I think her body was in the fire on Halloween.

Do we know if there were any fires from November 1 till when SA was arrested? Was there just that one at that location?

No idea. I'm telling you what I believe based on what we know.

 

[Cjw_55106]

If nothing else, this case shows that you have to prove innocence, rather than be proven guilty.

 

[Dickies]

Question for Woz or any other lawyers still following this thread. How important is it to the case for a crime to have occurred as the prosecution presents it?

I guess it comes down to what the jury believes. Maybe I answered my own question.

So basically if none of the evidence adds up you are left putting someone in jail for the rest of their lives on a hunch. Obviously there is nothing in our system that prevents it, but it is not how things should work.