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Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (1 Viewer)

mr. furley said:
here's what is weird to me about this woman. no lay person had ever heard of her before she got tied in to this case. as soon as she took the case people started gushing about how amazing she is.  based on ..... what?

people thought Strang and Buting were amazing! but then after MAM finished thousands of questions/theories came up and thousands of holes got poked in their defense. average people were convinced that they saw obvious mis-steps and overlooked evidence, etc.   somehow none of that blame fell on Strang & Buting.

it's strange to me how people form opinions with either no information (Zellner).... or continue to hold opinions in opposition to what they say ("Strang & Buting were saints!" / "how could the attorneys miss these 178 obvious pieces of evidence that clearly exonerate Avery???!?!?")
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Based on a cursory review of her accomplishments, which are out-of-this-world incredible, once they had heard of her. She has exonerated 17 wrongly-convicted people and been given prestigious awards in the process.

There is a lot of verifiable information indicating that Zellner is not only amazing at what she does but also provides a tremendous service to humanity.

 
parasaurolophus said:
It is from a report that was typed after the fact. http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Avery-8-26-16-Motion-for-Post-Conviction-Scientific-Testing.pdf
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The date of 11/03/05 is also typed twice on the page. 

11/03/05 is also the date Officer Colborn called in to dispatch to verify her license plate number.

It being a typo is possible... but would have to be typo'd twice, and Colborn's call to dispatch be complete happenstance to have occurred on that day that was typo'd twice.

 
Politician Spock said:
The date of 11/03/05 is also typed twice on the page. 

11/03/05 is also the date Officer Colborn called in to dispatch to verify her license plate number.

It being a typo is possible... but would have to be typo'd twice, and Colborn's call to dispatch be complete happenstance to have occurred on that day that was typo'd twice.
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That date is typed 3 times on the page. Only one time refers to the vehicle though. The other two times refer to the date that the missing persons report was filed. They weren't typos.  

 
TakiToki said:
Based on a cursory review of her accomplishments, which are out-of-this-world incredible, once they had heard of her. She has exonerated 17 wrongly-convicted people and been given prestigious awards in the process.

There is a lot of verifiable information indicating that Zellner is not only amazing at what she does but also provides a tremendous service to humanity.
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let's be honest.. how many people looked in to her background before forming an opinion? 5% maybe?

 
mr. furley said:
let's be honest.. how many people looked in to her background before forming an opinion? 5% maybe?
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That's probably double the percentage that gave Avery the benefit of doubt after Ken Kratz gave his disgusting press conference talking about blood/sweat. 

But I would say it's much higher anyway.  Her background and credentials were in most articles that reported her taking on the Avery case.  So there was all the info you needed to know that she was a real MFing G.  

A lot of people who were closely following the case also saw the "Dream|Killer" documentary which actually shows her in action in a court room and stuff.  Once you see her personality it's hard not to really admire this woman.  

She's just the bee's knees :wub:  

 
Trial Transcript Day 19 nuggets

The first day of the Defense's witnesses did not disappoint. 

  • The first ~100 pages or so was argument outside the presence of the jury, about the sequential testing (by the Defense) of the DNA evidence, and about the charges of restraint; I thought both made fair points, but I felt the Defense "won" the argument, though I am not privy to what went down in pre-trial hearings that may weigh in the judge's mind; judge asked for more time to deliberate before issuing a ruling on the arguments
  • Lisa Buchner, the bus driver, testified that she saw a woman taking pics of the van between 3:30 and 4:30, because she drove the same route every day, including dropping Brendan and Blaine Dassey off at their driveway; she noted that it did seem odd to her that someone was taking a picture of a junk van --I believe it was already established that TH had made other trips to the Avery yard to photograph vehicles, and being a junkyard, I'm sure most of the them were not in very good shape. 
  • when pressed, she did say she didn't remember an exact date when she had seen the woman taking pics of the van
  • but she did give a statement to police when they had the road barrier set up around the Avery property; she lived in the area and self-reported what she had seen because it stood out in her mind
  • John Leurquin, propane truck driver, would fill his truck every day at 3:30 at a filling tank (aka "bulk plant") on the corner of Avery Road; he said it took ~30 minutes and he would fill out his log book and then pretty much just sit in the truck waiting
  • on 10/31, he saw a green, mid-sized SUV leaving the Avery yard; :tinfoilhat:  said he had done business with the Averys before, but wasn't friends with them
  • he didn't tell police what he had seen at first, because he wasn't sure it was THE RAV4 and didn't want to speculate
  • Agent Fassbender called him after reviewing the check-in logs used at the roadblocks after 10/31, which he had to check in at to get to his fill station; he told Fassbender he saw the green SUV during the 3:30-4:00 time slot
  • Leurquin said he'd say maybe 2 cars on Avery Road during a typical fill-up; said he remembered that particular one because it was at least similar to TH's which he had seen on TV
  • he said he did see a lot of the same cars, school buses, etc. every day and didn't recall ever seeing the green SUV before
  • Roland Johnson actually owned the land and trailer that SA was living in; RJ let SA's infamous girlfriend, Jodi, stay there for free as a favor, then Steve moved in after he got out of prison;
  • the .22 rifle belonged to Johnson and he testified he fired the .22 all around the yard all the time, even around the garage :tinfoilhat:
  • he even fired into a hole right at the garage door :tinfoilhat:
  • the infamous bookcase (from which the RAV key was magically produced - and which was actually a WW2-era record album cabinet) was Johnson's also, and he said to his best recollection, the backing was never loose on it --he didn't live there, but he would come into town and stay there (crash on the couch) from time to time to check on the place and check on Jodi/Steve, as they were friends
  • Johnson was a tool and die maker, so he knows about metal; testified that the smelter glows when in use, then turns back to a rusted look (as soon as overnight, when it cools down), as the high heat applied to almost any metal will cause that rusting --hmmmm the "expert" from the State had testified that the rusty smelter looked as if it hadn't been used in a long time, but I'm not sure where the Defense was going with this one
  • per the State's cross-examination, Johnson had told police in an interview that he had seen SA "just prior to 10/31" and he noticed a "nasty gash" on his hand at that time
  • the Defense came back with the likelihood that it was almost a MONTH prior to 10/31 when he had seen SA; and also that it wasn't unusual for people who work in a junkyard to have lots of cuts and scrapes on their hands
  • Dara Kakatsch, the Manitowoc County Coroner, saw the discovery of believed human bone fragments on TV, and called a couple of colleagues including a forensic anthropologist, to get ready to go to work; she called the officials of the case and asked why she had not been called and made arrangements to come to the scene on 11/9 to help, but was "put off" 2 or 3 times by Weigert; she was then told her services were not needed;  --much of this discussion ended up being outside the presence of the jury and the witness ( so much of this was the Defense saying 'this will be her testimony if allowed'); The State argued it was irrelevant and that the Manitowoc County Counsel removed all MC agencies from the investigation due to conflict of interest; Defense said well obviously they didn't remove ALL agencies and that it was clear investigative bias to allow some and not others;  She later received a call from a County Executive and was urged not to push to be part of the investigation, as it was a conflict of interest; Then shortly thereafter another call from the County Counsel advising her the same :tinfoilhat:  
  • she had ZERO involvement in the old SA case and thought it extremely odd behavior that she be asked not to join the investigation efforts
  • judge ruled that there was little probative value by allowing this witness and could just cause jury confusion so disallowed her testimony -- :tinfoilhat:  couldn't believe this. There must have been something pre-trial, surely, regarding this. I thought the Defense had a very valid point here about the bias issue. 


Day 20 includes more Defense witnesses, including a lab auditor (I think), a fancy doctor guy, and Mr. Weigert himself, who's listed TWICE on the day 20 docket. :popcorn:  

  •  
 
Nathan R. Jessep said:
  • Dara Kakatsch, the Manitowoc County Coroner, saw the discovery of believed human bone fragments on TV, and called a couple of colleagues including a forensic anthropologist, to get ready to go to work; she called the officials of the case and asked why she had not been called and made arrangements to come to the scene on 11/9 to help, but was "put off" 2 or 3 times by Weigert; she was then told her services were not needed;  --much of this discussion ended up being outside the presence of the jury and the witness ( so much of this was the Defense saying 'this will be her testimony if allowed'); The State argued it was irrelevant and that the Manitowoc County Counsel removed all MC agencies from the investigation due to conflict of interest; Defense said well obviously they didn't remove ALL agencies and that it was clear investigative bias to allow some and not others;  She later received a call from a County Executive and was urged not to push to be part of the investigation, as it was a conflict of interest; Then shortly thereafter another call from the County Counsel advising her the same :tinfoilhat:  
  • she had ZERO involvement in the old SA case and thought it extremely odd behavior that she be asked not to join the investigation efforts
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Clearly not part of the inner circle, unlike Sherry "Put em in the Garage" Culhane

 
Trial Transcript Day 20 nuggets

  • Janine Arvizu, Lab Quality Auditor, reviewed Dr. Lebeau's protocol for EDTA testing on stains - noted it had the "shortest description of method scope that I have ever read" and that there is generally much more "scientific meat" in terms of describing conditions, etc. --I suppose you could say maybe it was because they "rushed" the experiment to get it in for the trial, but still, :tinfoilhat:  
  • Arvizu said Dr. L's test is good for if EDTA is found, but based on the method presented, NOT detecting EDTA could be because it wasn't there OR because they just didn't detect it
  • Dr. L's detection limit (the instrument's limit) of 13 (which the State referred to, I believe) was for samples injected directly into the instrument; Method detection limits are usually larger, due to swabbing, extracting and diluting the stain samples
  • Arvizu said Dr. L didn't conform to the quality standards, by using his own blood/EDTA sample; There are commercial labs that SELL standard controls, where the quantity of EDTA is already known. Dr. L didn't know how much EDTA was in his sample tube :tinfoilhat:  
  • Arvizu felt that Dr. L's results from SA's blood vial EDTA test were overstated, and she questioned the results because of the unknown amounts of EDTA present, when the tests were run, or even at the time of trial
  • SA blood vial had an expiration date of March '96, but was tested in 2007 by Dr, L --now the State brought up that this expiration date as a general rule refers to the vacuum of the test tube being intact and operational as intended, however the Defense noted that it also covers "overall" expiration and 'expected results' when dealing with whatever is in the tube :tinfoilhat:  
  • Arvizu disagreed with Dr. L's  conclusion that the blood came from active bleeding because the EDTA could have just not been detected and still have been from the blood vial
  • Arvizu said,when prompted about the hurried nature of the whole blood stain testing ordeal "it was the fastest turn on any data I have ever reviewed" 
  • Arvizu, in summary, said she believed Dr. L's test was adequate to detect the presence of EDTA, but inadequate to detect the absence of EDTA
  • Dr. Scott Fairgrieve, a forensic anthropology specialist from Ontario, said he didn't agree with Dr. Leslie Eisenberg's opinion that the SA garage was necessarily the burn site  because he's had cases where the majority of bones ended up where they were moved TO, not where they were originally burned :tinfoilhat:  
  • Fairgrieve also disagreed with that theory because smaller, more delicate bone fragments (such as tiny inner ear bones), in his experience, had been found in the moved location
  • Fairgrieve said he could not say where the burn site was, but he also could not exclude any site, based on the evidence he reviewed
  • Investigator Weigert was called again, as a Defense witness this time. It was brief. They questioned him about confirming the location the bus driver had claimed to see the woman taking photographs, and the timeframe in which she claimed to have seen the photographer. --I didn't really see the point in this questioning, but maybe they had a trick up their sleeve. 
Day 21 is short, and I believe Weigert was the last of the Defense's witnesses. Looks like Day 21 has some rulings by the judge on some outstanding matters, and then ends up with the Defense resting. 

 
Trial Transcripts, Day 21

Not a whole lot to report, since we are done with witnesses at this point. The judge ruled on several motions from pre-trial and earlier in the trial. He ruled against the Defense (which you could kind of see coming in what had transpired thus far in the trial) in all except for one, which was the false imprisonment charge (which he ruled so, because he said it would require too much speculation by the jury for that particular count). 

Then, they went through the jury voir dire, wherein all jurors were questioned individually in front of the attorneys, in the judge's chambers. They were just asked if they had received any outside information about the trial (from TV, internet, other people, etc.) and if they had heard any other jurors talking about the case.  Only one juror made a claim that another juror, "Auggie," had been heard saying his wife was telling him what was going on in the courtroom when the jury was dismissed. It apparently was decided to not be a big deal, because nothing else was said about it. 

And finally, Steve Avery announced that he would not be testifying because he is "an innocent man and there is no reason for me to testify."

THE DEFENSE RESTS

Day 22 transcript is very short, and there was no jury present, so not sure if there will be anything substantial, but we shall see.

 
mr. furley said:
Avery on Dr. Phil next week
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from the link within that article, just in case anyone wants to record it:

Avery will telephone the daytime talk show from behind bars for an episode that will air on Oct. 3 and 4. In addition, Dr. Phil McGraw will have Avery's fiancee, Lynn Hartman, in the studio. The two will discuss their relationship, Avery's life in prison and his hopes for a release.

"The truth is coming out, and sooner or later all the truth will come out," Avery said in the interview.
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Day 22 nugget: If I were going to read the transcripts, although it is short, I would skip Day 22 :lol:   I ended up just skimming through a good bit of it, as It was just revisiting prior motions that were left not yet ruled upon by the judge. Most of it was just restating and rehashing of discussion from previous days. 

Day 23 is the closing arguments :popcorn:  

 
Baloney Sandwich said:
What is the latest on Brendan Dassey?
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Pulled this from an article, but it's a good synopsis: The Wisconsin Attorney General is currently reviewing the ruling by a federal judge in Milwaukee and has 90 days to appeal the decision or Dassey will be a free man.

I read on another article that they had filed a motion for him to be released to his mother's custody while awaiting the appeal/no-appeal decision, but I assume nothing has been done regarding that, or else there would probably be an insurgence of articles of him being released, even if conditionally. 
 

 
Nathan R. Jessep said:
anyone catch the Dr. Phil interview last week? I was out of town and I have it recorded, but haven't watched it yet.
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No, but apparently he's already cut it off with the chick that went on calling her a "Gold-Digger".  Supposedly she got 5k for the Dr. Phil appearance and had done a few other things.

As for Brendan, the State moved to supplement the record with 5 pieces of evidence or whatever.  4 are taped conversations from school or the squad car, the 5th is the note they got his cousin Kayla to write against him.  She already recanted her story on the stand.   The 4 tapes were not contested by Dassey's defense (even though the time to submit them had long passed) but the note was.

 
cockroach said:
As for Brendan, the State moved to supplement the record with 5 pieces of evidence or whatever.  4 are taped conversations from school or the squad car, the 5th is the note they got his cousin Kayla to write against him.  She already recanted her story on the stand.   The 4 tapes were not contested by Dassey's defense (even though the time to submit them had long passed) but the note was.
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Interesting. Got a link? I've not seen that anywhere.

 
Nathan R. Jessep said:
anyone catch the Dr. Phil interview last week? I was out of town and I have it recorded, but haven't watched it yet.
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Meh. Don't bother. It was 2-episodes, and they focused on his NEW (since September) fiance.  She watched the documentary and instantly decided he was innocent, and "felt compelled to reach out to him" and 4 letters back and forth and BOOM engaged. :lmao:  

As for Steve's phone interview, there was nothing of interest. Phil asked Steve about Brendan's overturned conviction and how that could affect his case, and he of course said he couldn't talk about it. 

Fiance said they were hopeful he'd be out by December :lol:  

 
Nathan R. Jessep said:
Fiance said they were hopeful he'd be out by December :lol:  
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That's not just her money hungry, optimistic timeline... that's what Zellner has said in the past also.  She said something about having the boys home for Christmas (probably on twitter).  Doesn't seem possible at this point, but if she gets those tests back and it's determined the blood in the car is from a mid 20s Avery, it could be a holly jolly xmas.

 
Quarries may hold key to Halbach's murder

After sheriff's deputies recovered Teresa Halbach's Toyota RAV4 on the Avery salvage yard property in early November 2005, signs of a grisly crime began to emerge — but not where you'd expect.

Less than a mile away, in northern Manitowoc County, authorities located blood. They recovered charred human bones. They hauled away a considerable amount of suspicious burnt material.

Surprisingly, none of this evidence came from their walled off 40-acre crime scene at Avery Road where Halbach's vehicle was found.

....

Avery's post-conviction lawyer, Kathleen Zellner, of suburban Chicago, is seeking a judge's permission to allow advanced DNA and scientific testing on several clues that were confiscated by Wisconsin law enforcement from the nearby quarries including what's known as the Radandt deer camp property off the seldom-traveled stretch of Kuss Road.
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For reasons unclear, authorities from Calumet and Manitowoc County granted access to Radandt, on at least four different occasions, at their walled-off crime scene prior to Avery's arrest on Nov. 9.

In her motion seeking new scientific testing, Zellner stated that Halbach's blue-green RAV4 had been concealed on Radandt's quarry and that it was moved from Radandt's property on Friday night, Nov. 4, 2005, along the conveyor road, to incriminate Avery for the young woman's disappearance
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One of the cadaver dogs "hit" on a pile of dirt and sand north of the quarry's weight scale area. "Where the dog alerted to, I located an item in the pile of dirt. The item was red in color, surrounded by pink material," Tenor stated.

As time went on, according to Avery trial testimony, the authorities leading the Halbach murder probe did not keep Ertl abreast of the evidence he helped collect at Michels quarry. "I don't know what happened to that sample after I collected it," Ertl testified during cross-examination. Reports show that these quarry clues were turned over to Sherry Culhane, state crime lab's DNA analyst. "Chemical analysis of reddish/brown stains from the rocks and possible 'tissue' indicated the presence of blood," Culhane wrote in her report, "however, these stains were not human in origin.
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Monday, November 7:  About 10:30 a.m. Bushman notified the mobile command post at Avery's property that his team of searchers discovered a potential burial site at the end of Kuss Road. The site drew heightened interest from "a bloodhound following the scent from Teresa's shoe insole and (was) of interest to a cadaver dog," Ertl's report showed. The Kuss Road site was about a half-mile from the west edge of Avery's land, police reports indicate. That day, Kuss Road was taped off and processed as a crime scene. However, Calumet and Manitowoc authorities waited another two hours before notifying the state crime lab to respond to the site. Ertl's team over in Chilton didn't arrive at Kuss Road until 1:40 p.m. Reports show that no human remains were recovered from the potential grave site, which encompassed a wooded area in close proximity to Radandt's quarry. "At 4:51 p.m. I was notified the excavation area was not pertinent to this case," Dedering stated.
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Tyson and Ebben were at the command post when state troopers alerted them to a suspicious discovery at the quarry south of Avery's property. "The state patrol officers indicated they found, what they believed to be, a human vertebrae in the water," Tyson stated. Other troopers alerted Tyson to a possible burned human foot. Tyson took the charred object into custody, concluding it was burnt insulation. While at the quarry, Tyson photographed a red-stained rag that was taken into evidence. "Upon walking away from that object, I did locate, what appeared to be, fresh blood in the gravel," Tyson stated. Tyson took more pictures of the blood and he collected a swab of the stain. His report did not address what became of the suspected human vertebrae in the water. The state crime lab was not brought in to process the quarry site that day. Later, Culhane analyzed the stain, confirming it "indicated the presence of blood," Culhane wrote. The DNA tests indicated the quarry blood did not belong to Steven Avery, reports show. It came from an unknown male.
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Done, finally. 

I was not familiar with the process, but the State (prosecution team) makes their closing argument. Then the defense team gets their closing argument. THEN the State gets to have the last word with a chance to rebut anything the Defense brought up. 

I have some opinions regarding specific points in the case, but I tried going into the closing arguments with an open mind. After Kratz made his closing argument, I was pretty much on the "guilty" bandwagon.  Buting, then Strang - in a tag-team effort, made their closing argument for the Defense. I was pretty much back on the "there's no way there wasn't reasonable doubt here" team.  Then Kratz's rebuttal argument had me leaning back towards the "guilty" side again. :lol:  

I truly think that as this 5-week debacle was drawing to a close, the jury was probably a little glazed over and were probably swayed a lot by those closing arguments. I thought lawyers on both sides did a good job making their points and counter-points, but I think Kratz having the last word carried a little more favor with the jury. It very well may have been a "last team to score" scenario in play. Although I thought Kratz did a good job of overshadowing the defense's theories throughout his closing remarks, also, so I credit him for that.

I would implore anyone who's interested in this case to read the closing arguments (begin on Day 23 and finish up on a short Day 24). After reading through this entire thing, I feel like the closing arguments had a great deal to do with the jury's decision. Also counsel for both sides made reference to most of the pertinent points of evidence and testimony throughout their closing arguments, so it will give you a good summary.

 
Nathan R. Jessep said:
I truly think that as this 5-week debacle was drawing to a close, the jury was probably a little glazed over and were probably swayed a lot by those closing arguments. I thought lawyers on both sides did a good job making their points and counter-points, but I think Kratz having the last word carried a little more favor with the jury. It very well may have been a "last team to score" scenario in play. Although I thought Kratz did a good job of overshadowing the defense's theories throughout his closing remarks, also, so I credit him for that.
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There was a MCSD volunteer on the jury who's son was a sergent.  He was like the biggest volunteer, even had his own cruiser.  Other jurors talked about a fellow juror who was dug in and wouldn't even really discuss the evidence.  Pretty sure it was him.  Another juror said he thought he was framed but voted guilty in fear of his life.  And then there was the other juror (who was in MaM) that was dug in for a not-guilty verdict that was bullied and had a strange accident involving his daughter take him off the trial. 

 
cockroach said:
There was a MCSD volunteer on the jury who's son was a sergent.  He was like the biggest volunteer, even had his own cruiser.  Other jurors talked about a fellow juror who was dug in and wouldn't even really discuss the evidence.  Pretty sure it was him.  Another juror said he thought he was framed but voted guilty in fear of his life.  And then there was the other juror (who was in MaM) that was dug in for a not-guilty verdict that was bullied and had a strange accident involving his daughter take him off the trial. 
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Yeah, that was in one of the very short following days (day 25 I believe), where it said the juror had a "family emergency" and the alternate juror (who sat through the trial and was already sequestered as a precaution in case an alternate was needed) was brought in to take the vacated 12th spot. 

I don't know how much background is done on jurors when selecting, but one would think anything tied to MCSD in any way would have been flagged as a no-no. :tinfoilhat:  Surely that is something that may have come up in an appeal attempt, no? 

And I'd be interested to know about the "fear of his life" juror. I seem to recall reading that a while back, but nothing substantial ever came out on it, so I just figured it was hearsay. 

 
Nathan R. Jessep said:
Had not read about this other Manitowoc case from 1999. Lots of familiar faces in there from the Avery case. The bit on Mr. Lenk in there is particularly interesting. :tinfoilhat:  
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Yea, pretty messed up.  One of those high up guys (Sheriff Hermann maybe?) listed that case as one of their career highlights.  WTF?!  You have a dead kid in the road and noone to blame and you call it a highpoint in your career?   Pretty obvious to me that he was in on the coverup and that showing he was dirty and to be trusted propelled his career to the next level.  The leadership and powers that be in that whole region are going to burn in hell.

 
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