it's also a real possibility that everything Dassey admitted to is 100% true....but that possibility isn't as much fun to talk about....
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Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter The Flying Elvis
- Start date
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Except for the lack of DNA evidence that would have corroborated his "eye-witness" admission. I guess it's feasible that these 2 nimrods COULD have done it without leaving a single trace of DNA behind, but not very likely IMO. If there was ANY DNA found, I think it would be a slam-dunk with little room for doubt.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
If someone else did it (which is what Avery's new attorney is trying to prove), then all it would have taken is one cop (the one who allegedly "found" the key in Steve's bedroom) to be in on it. And it's not like they didn't have a million reason$ to want Steve Avery put away. I urge anyone who didn't read through this thread to read the trial transcripts or search and read my "trial transcript nuggets" posts with what I felt were the pertinent point to this (Avery's) case, regardless of if you are "for" or "against" the final ruling.
so this "one" cop drove the car onto the property and hid it...snuck into the evidence room on his own, pulled some blood from an old sample...transported it to the car and placed in on the ignition....found the burnt remains and put them in the fire pit, and the other area where they were found....and planted the key....all of that happening without the owners of the property noticing....?....that is pretty impressive....let alone the fact that they let the "somebody else" walk....
mr. furley
Footballguy
as poorly handled as the defense case was and how easy it was/is to talk a person like Dassey or Avery in to.... anything... it leaves too much reasonable doubt for me.
especially when considering (i know it's now allowed) that Avery was railroaded once before for a sexual assault he had nothing to do with.
especially when considering (i know it's now allowed) that Avery was railroaded once before for a sexual assault he had nothing to do with.
if I am planning on introducing a victim to a room of death/torture/rape...especially knowing that I will be disposing of that victim at some point in the near future...I would find a massive tarp....place it over the bed, whatever....do what I have to do....roll said victim up in the tarp....leave the room....throw all of it in a fire....no DNA in room...
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Blood spraying everywhere......no DNA? None happens to drop on the floor? Seems hard to fathom.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
The cop didn't have to do all that if he was an accomplice. And I forget now, as I've slept since I read through all that, if it was the same cop that found the key that had access to the evidence room. But it wouldn't be too far fetched to say even if it was two of them. It didn't have to be ALL THE COPS that were involved in the case, was the point.
she wasn't actually killed in the torture/rape room....at least that is the theory...she was killed elsewhere...
and this one cop...or two cops...are working in kahoots with the actual killer who they didn't know ahead of time....and were just waiting for this killer to commit the crime and then they went in and said hey, we want to work with you because you just happened to kill this girl who had been on the Avery property in the past and we would really like to set this guy up....work with us, we will let you walk....
or the cops hired someone to kill the victim from the start to get this going...?
I can't seem to make the connection between the cops and some mystery "real killer"....
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Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
None of that was my personal theory, but who knows. And I'm sure everybody knows everybody in an area like that (typical small town setting). Also keep in mind the other potential named killers were the ex-bf of the victim and family members of the defendants. Unless you happen to believe it was the famous serial killer guy.
All of that is conjecture anyway. I just know that from the facts that were presented in court, it seemed to me that there was reasonable doubt aplenty. Avery isn't done yet, but there again, the story told at his trial didn't match the one told at Dassey's trial either. And FYI, my opinions on this case were not formed from watching the documentary. Watching the show just made me want more info, so i then read the trial transcripts. I don't think it was a slam dunk either way, but I'm with @mr furley in that there seemed to be enough reasonable doubt.
1. if we take the cops actually killing the victim off the table.....None of that was my personal theory, but who knows. And I'm sure everybody knows everybody in an area like that (typical small town setting). Also keep in mind the other potential named killers were the ex-bf of the victim and family members of the defendants. Unless you happen to believe it was the famous serial killer guy.
And FYI, my opinions on this case were not formed from watching the documentary. Watching the show just made me want more info, so i then read the trial transcripts. I don't think it was a slam dunk either way, but I'm with @mr furley in that there seemed to be enough reasonable doubt.
2. and Avery/Dassey killing the victim off the table....
3. we are then saying that the cops worked with the actual killer to set these guys up....
4. or the actual killer did a REALLY good job his/herself in framing Avery/Dassey.....again doing all of it on the property unnoticed by the residents of the property......
man, I can be all about reasonable doubt...I really can....but I just cant wrap my head around 1, 3, 4 at all....I think people wanted to grasp onto Avery's past issues with the po po and run with some kind conspiracy theory and a ton of people took the hook....I think reasonable doubt in this case is a huge reach....
mr. furley
Footballguy
the truth doesn't have to be a convoluted conspiracy that you keep adding on to and then saying "see, this is why it can't be true" 
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so make up a simple scenario....I'm willing to listen....but the only things I have heard as a defense are that the cops framed him, coerced and planted evidence....the truth doesn't have to be a convoluted conspiracy that you keep adding on to
mr. furley
Footballguy
no
mostly because i haven't watched it in quite a while and don't remember the details
but perhaps might i suggest not reading only the wild conspiracy theories and thinking that everyone is on board?
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fair enough.... but I'm not sure what your last comment meant....I haven't read or given thought to any conspiracy theories, I would actually like to hear some from the Avery/Dassey side....I'm pretty much convinced there is no conspiracy theory and that Avery did it....
matttyl
Footballguy
Not necessarily. It's been a long, long time since I watched the documentary, so the details are hazy at best.... Cops find out girl was killed. Frame these two having no idea who actually did it. They already made up their minds that he was the killer, and potentially made up the needed evidence to support their preconceived notion (which just happened to save them millions).
mr. furley
Footballguy
i'd say there's an extremely small chance of any vast conspiracy at play. or even a small conspiracy.
my difficulty with the conviction of Dassey and the Supreme Court turning down the case is how Dassey was questioned and fed lines by the police. doesn't seem uncommon from what i've watched on TV over the years in various documentaries, etc. but Dassey's inability to mentally withstand the manipulation/bullying (and without a parent) casts too much doubt on any confession for me.
his attorney was an incompetent rube. his mom probably has an IQ in the 70-80 range. Dassey himself probably lower & he was 16 at the time. he didn't stand a chance against any suggestion.
cops suggest that he may have done something ("come on Brandon, you cut her throat.. just tell us. it's ok. you can go home and watch Wrestlemania if you just tell us"), feed an idea here and there ("remember when you drew that picture of Theresa tied up on the bed? yeah, that wasn't accurate.. change this, that & that and then we will believe you're telling us the truth"), pressure a bit here and there.. coerce a little more.. make a few promises. without a lawyer to help him or a parent to play a little defense that poor kid didn't stand a chance.
do i think it's possible these two did it? sure, i think it's possible. do i think it's likely............................... i'm probably 65/35 against based on the prosecution case (as presented in MAM) being really not convincing. at least not enough. the defense presented enough reasonable doubt imo to where if i'm on that jury i'd not have convicted.
prosecution has to present evidence beyond a reasonable doubt and i don't think that happened.
again, based on what we saw in Making a Murderer
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matttyl
Footballguy
Like I said, it's been a long time since I watched the documentary. Details are hazy. Someone noticed her missing, right?
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
matttyl
Footballguy
I think that the way he was interrogated is what people have the most trouble with in this case....and thats what leaves them thinking the police are dirty and that he was set up...which in my mind is a
matttyl
Footballguy
ok so we have established she was reported missing.....good
so then they start tracing her last known whereabouts.....and one of them is the Avery Salvage Yard/farm.....because she was taking pictures of a car Avery wanted to sell....cool
(gap we need to fill in)
they find her car and remains...on the farm
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Well, that's because what was presented in the case couldn't implicate any other killer, per a court order prior to the trial. The reasonable doubt furley and I are referring to is in reference to the points of the case. Did you read my trial notes in this thread? I presented them open-mindedly "for" and "against" the defendant when applicable (according to my own judgment of course).
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
this is part of what Zellner (Avery's new attorney) is/was working on, using cell phone records, etc.
matttyl
Footballguy
to be fair...I'm not real sure....thought I have read everything in this thread but I could be wrong....been awhile for me too....and to also be fair I will try and go back and look for your notes in this thread tonight or something....
I agree 100%....but a big part of the show and the defense is that the cops were dirty in their interrogation of Dassey, that they planted eveidence....and were pissed off cause Avery was going to be given a bunch of money from the county for mishandling of a previous case with him...
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
no worries, I'm shocked when anyone reads anything I post
but FYI, I think I labeled them all as "trial transcript nuggets" IIRC so that might be helpful in searching the thread
mr. furley
Footballguy
i could more easily believe that Avery did it alone but i just can't give all the way in to the idea that Dassey played the part that he was convicted for
people get jobbed by the legal system/####ty lawyers all the time. even in medium to small ways. some people just happen to get a hot poker in the ### and wind up in prison for decades for crimes they didn't commit. and, i'd wager, very rarely as the result of a conspiracy.
the two lawyer guys (whose names i can't remember anymore) did a decent job of making me wonder hard about the ex-boyfriend. that guy was skeevy as hell.
mr. furley
Footballguy
to this i'll say.. Sunday when i pulled up to my house there was a giant truck parked in my driveway. it was the fence guy coming out to talk specs one last time.
wife says "aw, it's too bad he didn't bring his puppies & wife again. the girls would have loved to play with them and she was so nice."
to which i said "i saw somebody or something moving around in his truck.. maybe she didn't want to get out of the truck... or maybe she wasn't in there and it was the dogs"
if i was put up on the stand to testify, i wouldn't be able to say one way or another with any certainty that someone was in the truck... but my wife was convinced that his wife and/or dogs where there because he brought them along for the estimate weeks before.
maybe she was there.. maybe she wasn't. if the fence guy went missing i'd not be able to say for sure that someone (his wife, a friend, a killer) was in the truck. my wife will argue that there was no doubt someone was in the truck because there was on the previous visit.
could be that someone tagged along on the ride to Avery's salvage and just hung out in the car, unnoticed
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You haven't been following this case from the eyes of the locals then.
https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/investigations/2016/09/12/whos-who-ricky-hochstetler-homicide/82207652/
https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/investigations/2016/09/12/manitowoc-sheriff-under-fire-1999-homicide/80862938/
If they killed and tried to cover up the death of Ricky Hochstetler, they had 36 million reasons why they would do it again.
let's roll with that....him framing Avery so well (on his own) would be a coup of biblical proportions....getting the blood from a previous sample in the evidence room, planting the blood on the ignition, hiding the car, somehow getting her burnt remains to two different places on the farm close to the house, planting the key, etc. etc....and if you say it was the boyfriend and he got help from the cops with all this stuff (especially the blood)....then you have to be saying the cops were cool with the boyfriend killing this girl for whatever reason that would be, and then letting him walk so that they could then put into action their "fix" and start the framing of Avery....
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Well, no, that is not a real possibility because he confessed to so many different things that contradict each other. Only after hours of leading questions and filling in the blanks for him, did Brendan get the details of the crime sort of right.
mr. furley
Footballguy
well, that's your conspiracy theory not mine
or... anyone else's
again, it's not about the defense proving someone else did it. it's about casting reasonable doubt. the defense doesn't have to unearth and prove any alternate theory. they just have to dredge up enough questions and poke enough holes to create reasonable doubt.
the prosecution team's job is to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. they have to prove Avery & Dassey did this without any other plausible possibilities.
no one says there has to be a vast conspiracy theory. not sure why you're hung up on this.
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part of your apprehension/reasonable doubt is that they got you "wondering" about the boyfriend...I am assuming meaning you think he could be the murderer....so I laid out a couple scenarios of what that would entail/look like.....not conspiracy theories...if you think the boyfriend is involved, what does that look like from your view....
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I'd never heard of the Hochstetler case. Interesting.
When I wrote "killed," I really meant murdered. I supposed it's possible that a cop accidentally ran over Teresa Halbach and then framed Avery for it.
You keep adding numerous improbable details that aren't necessary.
Here's a simple story. (It's been a long time since I saw the documentary, so maybe my story is inconsistent with some facts.) The boyfriend or the brother or someone else murdered Teresa Halbach and incinerated her body a few miles away in the quarry. They dumped the remains on Avery's property. They might have moved her car to Avery's property (and left the key in it).
The cops think that Avery might have killed her; they're not sure, but either way, he's a convenient suspect that will allow them to close the case and also thwart his civil suit against the department. So maybe the police found her car somewhere and moved it to Avery's property. Or maybe they found it on the property with the key in it. They then planted the key in his dwelling. (This would have been extremely simple if they had the key to begin with ... and having the key would also help them move the car there.) Maybe they planted some of his blood on the car -- that part always seemed fairly doubtful to me, but who knows?
There doesn't have to be any conspiracy between the murderer and the cops. There really only has to be one or two cops in on the framing, and he or they might well have thought that Avery was guilty anyway. (Cops do frame guilty suspects sometimes.) The cops didn't have to do the murdering themselves, or approve of the murdering, or knowingly let a murderer get away.
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If you're going the alternative suspects route. The Zipperers are your best best: http://theinspiringdad.com/the-george-zipperer-theory/
Or maybe the Mexican guy who chopped up his wife on Nov 5th: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/44ewmz/andres_martinez_suspect_1_heres_why/
Or maybe the Mexican guy who chopped up his wife on Nov 5th: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/44ewmz/andres_martinez_suspect_1_heres_why/
Zow
Footballguy
I'm just trying to hear possible scenarios of how this could have happened if Avery didn't do it. Appreciate you for at least throwing something out there.
So one of those other people (boyfriend, brother, stranger) murdered and incinerated her (for some reason we don't know?...never heard of any motive by anyone to want this young lady dead). And not only did they want her dead for whatever reason, they also planned on taking the opportunity to frame Avery for it. And they lucked into the coincidence that she also just happened to be the same girl that Avery has asked to come out to his property on several occasions to take pictures of cars he was going to sell. Then they pulled off the planting of all the stuff on the property without a hitch. Thats with no cop involvement.
Then if there was cop involvement...it is still has someone else doing the murder and incineration for whatever unknown reason. Then that someone else also planting the remains, etc. Then the cops coming in later thinking it is their lucky day, find the dead remains of the missing girl on the property of a guy they owe money too, and by some great coincidence a girl that had been at his place and then disappeared. Then they process this and decide what a "great opportunity" to just further plant evidence, and move things around to make sure it is an Avery slam dunk.
Tough sell, but at least something. If someone had issues with this girl in the first place to murder her and burn her body, thats pretty brutal. Following it up with an intricate frame job on someone else would seem unnecessary and pretty risky.
ren hoek
Footballguy
There are also steps that don't make logical sense if Avery did murder Halbach. He was uniquely capable of crushing the vehicle and junking it in a way no other killer could ever dream of. Why just let the murder vehicle sit there with a tree branch covering it when he could toss it in the machine and rip it apart?
Not to mention the same police department literally framed him for murder before and had plain as day animus toward Avery. In lieu of defining evidence to the contrary I have a tough time not giving the defense the benefit of the doubt. I dunno, I guess I'd like to see a bullet point type rundown from people who do believe they did it.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Murderers like having someone else blamed for their murder. Not sure why this seems like something really out there to you. If the murderer knew she was going to Avery's property, yes that would be an opportunity, given Avery would not get any benefit of the doubt from a police department he was suing. If you're looking for a better opportunity than that one to come along, you'll be waiting a long while. .
Not sure how that's luck. Unless you think he had two agendas: 1) kill her; and 2) Frame Avery. It's more like he just had one agenda: 1) kill her. When he heard she was going to Avery's property, that was an opportunity to do it and blame someone else for it. Opportunity usually comes along eventually. It doesn't take luck.
How was it hard?
Wrigley
Footballguy
Throw in that he supposedly killed her at his home/garage....why drive the body around only to torch it less than 100 feet from his front door?
ren hoek
Footballguy
I watched that clip earlier thinking the same thing you did. It's incredibly damning.
https://youtu.be/VZ9M9xjF_LI
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