Malaysian plane shot down in Ukraine. (1 Viewer)

[ClownCausedChaos2]

I don't get how you don't know who shot the missile. Shouldn't the list of people who have missiles be relatively short?

They know who shot the missile. YOU don't know who shot the missile.

 

[avoiding injuries]

Presidents don't need to go into bunker mode every time bad #### goes down, I don't understand why people think this has to happen. They are pretty much in crisis response mode 24/7, it's part of the job description.

I get that but it seems like he might have been able to skip a fundraiser tonight. Maybe not the night for it. I know I put too much emphasis on perception but it does mean something to me.

You were equally outraged when Bush the Lesser feted McCain with a birthday cake as the citizens of New Orleans were suffering unspeakable tragedy and horrors because of Hurricane Katrina, right?

While New Orleans was drowning

If true, that isn't right either. I don't remember that happening at the time, do you? Or is it something that came out after the fact?

Do I remember it happening at the time? Absolutely. A storm of almost unheard-of intensity was inexorably descending on a major city with landfall imminent . . . and the president was out in Arizona doing goofy political stuff to boost the image of the guy viewed as his hoped-for successor. Remaining in the White House to be briefed on the unfolding crisis was probably the right move. And yeah, the birthday cake silliness was contemporaneously reported.

So he deserved criticism for it as Obama does now, imo.

I actually would not have gone through with the fundraiser either, so I don't disagree with your overall point and I don't think (although I may be wrong) that you're coming from a knee-jerk Obama hater's perspective . . . but the two situations are not even remotely similar. They're both unspeakable tragedies, but one involved an imminent (and inevitable) threat to the entire citizenry of a large American city. The other, while absolutely of great concern and heartbreakingly, horrifyingly sad, does not.

I didn't bring up Katrina as a comparison. They aren't similar.

Too funny

 

[gump]

Video of falling plane: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ffc_1405644832

Damn

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Were other commercial planes flying over the same area?

Yes. Some jag-off on CNN tried to pin this on laziness or lack of planning on Malaysia Airlines. But they were north of the area that was under caution.

my understanding is they can fly over that zone as long as they are at 32,000 feet or higher...they were at 33,000 when they were shot down

 

[avoiding injuries]

Video of falling plane: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ffc_1405644832

Damn

That's definitely not MH17. Not a cloud in the sky in that video compared to the other footage which is mostly cloudy.

 

[msommer]

Latest is no confirmed Americans on board but 20 of unconfirmed nationality

173 Dutch

27 Australians

47 Malaysians

12 Indonesians

9 Brits

4 Germans

4 Belgians

3 Filipinos

1 Canadian

And no mayday

Updated numbers, still no Americans

 

[msommer]

How do they not know for sure if any Americans were on board?

Maybe the NSA is having an off day in their surveillance

 

[avoiding injuries]

NBC reporting Russian separatists have recovered the black boxes and are offering them to the highest bidder. That, or they may send them to Moscow.

 

[Norman Paperman]

Video of falling plane: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ffc_1405644832

Damn

That's definitely not MH17. Not a cloud in the sky in that video compared to the other footage which is mostly cloudy.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Presidents don't need to go into bunker mode every time bad #### goes down, I don't understand why people think this has to happen. They are pretty much in crisis response mode 24/7, it's part of the job description.

I get that but it seems like he might have been able to skip a fundraiser tonight. Maybe not the night for it. I know I put too much emphasis on perception but it does mean something to me.

You were equally outraged when Bush the Lesser feted McCain with a birthday cake as the citizens of New Orleans were suffering unspeakable tragedy and horrors because of Hurricane Katrina, right?

While New Orleans was drowning

If true, that isn't right either. I don't remember that happening at the time, do you? Or is it something that came out after the fact?

Do I remember it happening at the time? Absolutely. A storm of almost unheard-of intensity was inexorably descending on a major city with landfall imminent . . . and the president was out in Arizona doing goofy political stuff to boost the image of the guy viewed as his hoped-for successor. Remaining in the White House to be briefed on the unfolding crisis was probably the right move. And yeah, the birthday cake silliness was contemporaneously reported.

So he deserved criticism for it as Obama does now, imo.

I actually would not have gone through with the fundraiser either, so I don't disagree with your overall point and I don't think (although I may be wrong) that you're coming from a knee-jerk Obama hater's perspective . . . but the two situations are not even remotely similar. They're both unspeakable tragedies, but one involved an imminent (and inevitable) threat to the entire citizenry of a large American city. The other, while absolutely of great concern and heartbreakingly, horrifyingly sad, does not.

I didn't bring up Katrina as a comparison. They aren't similar.

Too funny

No doubt. This issue is ridiculous. The American President can go to fundraisers after a Malaysian plane gets shot down in Ukraine, he shouldnt go to fundraisers when an American city is drowning.

 

[Premier]

I love how the nutbags here immediately find a way to ##### about Obama.

 

[Norman Paperman]

There are tragedies every day, should the president simply cancel all plans, to properly mourn the fact that people are dying in conflicts around the globe? Perhaps attend a daily memorial for anyone killed in an attack in the previous 24-hours?

At the end of the day, the media is making this out to be a bigger deal than it really is. There will be no consequences here, we'll probably never even know who or why the plane was shot down.

 

[gump]

Video of falling plane: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ffc_1405644832

Damn

That's definitely not MH17. Not a cloud in the sky in that video compared to the other footage which is mostly cloudy.

Looked fishy...but still a chilling scene (unless that plane is empty).

 

[bigbottom]

Last night on Fox they were roasting Obama. Then they played clips of Reagan addressing the nation from the Oval Office after the Russians shot down a Korean airliner. They were drooling over Reagan's tough talk. Only problem is that Reagan waited four days before addressing the nation. If Obama waited four days, he'd be pilloried.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

There are tragedies every day, should the president simply cancel all plans, to properly mourn the fact that people are dying in conflicts around the globe? Perhaps attend a daily memorial for anyone killed in an attack in the previous 24-hours?

At the end of the day, the media is making this out to be a bigger deal than it really is. There will be no consequences here, we'll probably never even know who or why the plane was shot down.

Shocker

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Last night on Fox they were roasting Obama. Then they played clips of Reagan addressing the nation from the Oval Office after the Russians shot down a Korean airliner. They

were drooling over Reagan's tough talk. Only problem is that Reagan waited four days before addressing the nation. If Obama waited four days, he'd be pilloried.

Apples and oranges comparing news cycle times of the 80s to today

 

[bigbottom]

Last night on Fox they were roasting Obama. Then they played clips of Reagan addressing the nation from the Oval Office after the Russians shot down a Korean airliner. They

were drooling over Reagan's tough talk. Only problem is that Reagan waited four days before addressing the nation. If Obama waited four days, he'd be pilloried.

Apples and oranges comparing news cycle times of the 80s to today

Convenient. The Korean airliner being shot down was immediately reported in the news. It was the president's address to the nation that was delayed.

 

[avoiding injuries]

Last night on Fox they were roasting Obama. Then they played clips of Reagan addressing the nation from the Oval Office after the Russians shot down a Korean airliner. They

were drooling over Reagan's tough talk. Only problem is that Reagan waited four days before addressing the nation. If Obama waited four days, he'd be pilloried.

Apples and oranges comparing news cycle times of the 80s to today

Minus the roasting part, Chris Mathews did the same thing on MSNBC to end his show last night.

 

[Pots]

Video of falling plane: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ffc_1405644832

Damn

That's definitely not MH17. Not a cloud in the sky in that video compared to the other footage which is mostly cloudy.

Looked fishy...but still a chilling scene (unless that plane is empty).

This is not correct footage. It's just this video http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f80_1402065879 trying to be passed off as MH17.

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

So, my Alex-Jones-loving, false-flag-supporting, anti-federal-government, malitia-loving brother-in-law just posted on Facebook: "Anyone wonder why there are no bodies in the plane wreckage?"

:facepalm:

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

CNN reporting that the Russians have taken the missile site (apparently it's been identified as a SAM-11) and the black box.

Is the crash wreckage actually in Ukraine or in Russia?

They're also saying that the SAM could have come from Russia or could have been seized from the Ukraine military. But the consensus is now rounding to confirm that it was separatists who did the firing. Which makes sense to me because it sounds like maybe people who had no idea what they were doing. It's hard to imagine a reason why separatists would actively, consciously do this, unless in some crazy mentality they thought that it would keep foreigners away from Ukraine. On the other hand how could no one accept blame for this? Incredible.

 

[avoiding injuries]

So, my Alex-Jones-loving, false-flag-supporting, anti-federal-government, malitia-loving brother-in-law just posted on Facebook: "Anyone wonder why there are no bodies in the plane wreckage?"

:facepalm:

Did you ask him why he wasn't counting the 182 already recovered?

 

[Norman Paperman]

So, my Alex-Jones-loving, false-flag-supporting, anti-federal-government, malitia-loving brother-in-law just posted on Facebook: "Anyone wonder why there are no bodies in the plane wreckage?"

:facepalm:

I thought liveleak had video of bodies....

 

[meatwad1]

There are tragedies every day, should the president simply cancel all plans, to properly mourn the fact that people are dying in conflicts around the globe? Perhaps attend a daily memorial for anyone killed in an attack in the previous 24-hours?

At the end of the day, the media is making this out to be a bigger deal than it really is. There will be no consequences here, we'll probably never even know who or why the plane was shot down.

President Donkey got plenty of criticism all around Twitter from people (liberal media members included) appalled that he was cracking jokes minutes after this happened. No one is saying he needs to hold a vigil or stop everything he is doing, but to go ahead with his prepared remarks shows that this guy is an idiot who really has no clue on how to operate on the fly. The guy is a total loser.

For all of you who rush to defend your donkey-king, here is the link.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696366/It-looks-like-terrible-tragedy-Obama-briefly-addresses-Malaysian-plane-crash-emerges-23-U-S-passengers-board.html

 

[Norman Paperman]

haters gonna hate

 

[Norman Paperman]

There are tragedies every day, should the president simply cancel all plans, to properly mourn the fact that people are dying in conflicts around the globe? Perhaps attend a daily memorial for anyone killed in an attack in the previous 24-hours?

At the end of the day, the media is making this out to be a bigger deal than it really is. There will be no consequences here, we'll probably never even know who or why the plane was shot down.

President Donkey got plenty of criticism all around Twitter from people (liberal media members included) appalled that he was cracking jokes minutes after this happened. No one is saying he needs to hold a vigil or stop everything he is doing, but to go ahead with his prepared remarks shows that this guy is an idiot who really has no clue on how to operate on the fly. The guy is a total loser.

For all of you who rush to defend your donkey-king, here is the link.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696366/It-looks-like-terrible-tragedy-Obama-briefly-addresses-Malaysian-plane-crash-emerges-23-U-S-passengers-board.html

haters gonna hate

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

So, my Alex-Jones-loving, false-flag-supporting, anti-federal-government, malitia-loving brother-in-law just posted on Facebook: "Anyone wonder why there are no bodies in the plane wreckage?"

:facepalm:

Did you ask him why he wasn't counting the 182 already recovered?

I don't engage him. I learned that lesson a long time ago.

 

[njherdfan]

CNN reporting that the Russians have taken the missile site (apparently it's been identified as a SAM-11) and the black box.

Is the crash wreckage actually in Ukraine or in Russia?

They're also saying that the SAM could have come from Russia or could have been seized from the Ukraine military. But the consensus is now rounding to confirm that it was separatists who did the firing. Which makes sense to me because it sounds like maybe people who had no idea what they were doing. It's hard to imagine a reason why separatists would actively, consciously do this, unless in some crazy mentality they thought that it would keep foreigners away from Ukraine. On the other hand how could no one accept blame for this? Incredible.

Based on the audio the New York Times posted, it seems like the separatists thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian military plane, right?

 

[Sabertooth]

Is that your BIL in your avatar CCC2?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

CNN reporting that the Russians have taken the missile site (apparently it's been identified as a SAM-11) and the black box.

Is the crash wreckage actually in Ukraine or in Russia?

They're also saying that the SAM could have come from Russia or could have been seized from the Ukraine military. But the consensus is now rounding to confirm that it was separatists who did the firing. Which makes sense to me because it sounds like maybe people who had no idea what they were doing. It's hard to imagine a reason why separatists would actively, consciously do this, unless in some crazy mentality they thought that it would keep foreigners away from Ukraine. On the other hand how could no one accept blame for this? Incredible.

Based on the audio the New York Times posted, it seems like the separatists thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian military plane, right?

Ok you're right that makes sense. I guess I meant why would someone consciously shoot down an airliner - what you say would be the only solution.

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

Is that your BIL in your avatar CCC2?

No way, dude! That's me!

 

[Workhorse]

Last night on Fox they were roasting Obama. Then they played clips of Reagan addressing the nation from the Oval Office after the Russians shot down a Korean airliner. They were drooling over Reagan's tough talk. Only problem is that Reagan waited four days before addressing the nation. If Obama waited four days, he'd be pilloried.

Context and timelines matter here: When Russia shot down that plane in 1983, the US was untouchable since we'd never done anything like that and it was easy to shout from the moral high ground that the Russians were "murderers". Then we did the same damn thing in 1988 in the Persian Gulf to an Iranian jet. Hell, we never even apologized for that one and none of the Vincennes crew were ever held accountable.

It would be difficult for Obama to berate Russia on this one when we have blood on our hands for a similar incident in our past.

 

[Norman Paperman]

Last night on Fox they were roasting Obama. Then they played clips of Reagan addressing the nation from the Oval Office after the Russians shot down a Korean airliner. They were drooling over Reagan's tough talk. Only problem is that Reagan waited four days before addressing the nation. If Obama waited four days, he'd be pilloried.

Context and timelines matter here: When Russia shot down that plane in 1983, the US was untouchable since we'd never done anything like that and it was easy to shout from the moral high ground that the Russians were "murderers". Then we did the same damn thing in 1988 in the Persian Gulf to an Iranian jet. Hell, we never even apologized for that one and none of the Vincennes crew were ever held accountable.

It would be difficult for Obama to berate Russia on this one when we have blood on our hands for a similar incident in our past.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Last night on Fox they were roasting Obama. Then they played clips of Reagan addressing the nation from the Oval Office after the Russians shot down a Korean airliner. They were drooling over Reagan's tough talk. Only problem is that Reagan waited four days before addressing the nation. If Obama waited four days, he'd be pilloried.

Context and timelines matter here: When Russia shot down that plane in 1983, the US was untouchable since we'd never done anything like that and it was easy to shout from the moral high ground that the Russians were "murderers". Then we did the same damn thing in 1988 in the Persian Gulf to an Iranian jet. Hell, we never even apologized for that one and none of the Vincennes crew were ever held accountable.

It would be difficult for Obama to berate Russia on this one when we have blood on our hands for a similar incident in our past.

Different circumstances.

USSR shot down a Korean airlines flight that simply flew over their territory, which is nuts.

The Vincennes was actually under attack by Iranian gunboats in the straights of Hormuz.

The problem here is that the Russians have fomented this whole situation, created it really, leading to yahoo bozo amateur separatists having a SAM site. Absolutely Obama can say something and he will. I think he will come out with something strong, he pretty much has to.

 

[lod01]

Video of falling plane: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ffc_1405644832

Damn

That's definitely not MH17. Not a cloud in the sky in that video compared to the other footage which is mostly cloudy.

Looked fishy...but still a chilling scene (unless that plane is empty).

This is not correct footage. It's just this video http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f80_1402065879 trying to be passed off as MH17.

That happened before June 6th. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXZDvB3YvzM

A Ukrainian military An-30 reconnaissance plane carried on flying after being hit when flying over Slavyansk on Friday afternoon. Anti-Kiev militia say they hit the An-30 with an anti-aircraft missile.

The right-hand engine of the plane caught on fire but this did not prevent the aircraft from continuing its flight. Footage shows it disappearing into the horizon.

Unconfirmed reports say the aircraft crashed somewhere between Nikolaevka and Krasny Liman, near the Golubie Ozera region. Those on board had reportedly parachuted from the plane

 

[Workhorse]

Last night on Fox they were roasting Obama. Then they played clips of Reagan addressing the nation from the Oval Office after the Russians shot down a Korean airliner. They were drooling over Reagan's tough talk. Only problem is that Reagan waited four days before addressing the nation. If Obama waited four days, he'd be pilloried.

Context and timelines matter here: When Russia shot down that plane in 1983, the US was untouchable since we'd never done anything like that and it was easy to shout from the moral high ground that the Russians were "murderers". Then we did the same damn thing in 1988 in the Persian Gulf to an Iranian jet. Hell, we never even apologized for that one and none of the Vincennes crew were ever held accountable.

It would be difficult for Obama to berate Russia on this one when we have blood on our hands for a similar incident in our past.

Different circumstances.

USSR shot down a Korean airlines flight that simply flew over their territory, which is nuts.

The Vincennes was actually under attack by Iranian gunboats in the straights of Hormuz.

The problem here is that the Russians have fomented this whole situation, created it really, leading to yahoo bozo amateur separatists having a SAM site. Absolutely Obama can say something and he will. I think he will come out with something strong, he pretty much has to.

It all depends on your perspective and how much blame to lay on each side:

The Korean Air flight was similar to the aircraft the US used for surveillance along those same routes, right up to the USSR airspace so there was certainly reason for confusion during a time of heightened tension between the two countries. Iran Air flight 655 (a slow Airbus climbing) couldn't ever be mistaken for a descending, attack profile F-14 jet fighter under any circumstances and the shootdown was blamed on radar operators who completely screwed up under pressure.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

CNN just played the recordings of the separatists when they shot down the plane and then came to realize what they had done.

Absolute certified idiots.

By the way they refer to "cossaks", I don't know if those are necessarily separatists.

 

[Run It Up]

Third of the people on MH17 were top AIDS researchers heading to Melbourne for the AIDS conference.

If we ever find out who is responsible I don't think anyone could save them from the response of the international community, I really think the United States should take a back seat on this one and let the U.N. actually be a legitimate organization.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Last night on Fox they were roasting Obama. Then they played clips of Reagan addressing the nation from the Oval Office after the Russians shot down a Korean airliner. They were drooling over Reagan's tough talk. Only problem is that Reagan waited four days before addressing the nation. If Obama waited four days, he'd be pilloried.

Context and timelines matter here: When Russia shot down that plane in 1983, the US was untouchable since we'd never done anything like that and it was easy to shout from the moral high ground that the Russians were "murderers". Then we did the same damn thing in 1988 in the Persian Gulf to an Iranian jet. Hell, we never even apologized for that one and none of the Vincennes crew were ever held accountable.

It would be difficult for Obama to berate Russia on this one when we have blood on our hands for a similar incident in our past.

Different circumstances.

USSR shot down a Korean airlines flight that simply flew over their territory, which is nuts.

The Vincennes was actually under attack by Iranian gunboats in the straights of Hormuz.

The problem here is that the Russians have fomented this whole situation, created it really, leading to yahoo bozo amateur separatists having a SAM site. Absolutely Obama can say something and he will. I think he will come out with something strong, he pretty much has to.

It all depends on your perspective and how much blame to lay on each side:

The Korean Air flight was similar to the aircraft the US used for surveillance along those same routes, right up to the USSR airspace so there was certainly reason for confusion during a time of heightened tension between the two countries. Iran Air flight 655 (a slow Airbus climbing) couldn't ever be mistaken for a descending, attack profile F-14 jet fighter under any circumstances and the shootdown was blamed on radar operators who completely screwed up under pressure.

Yeah not really leaving either off the hook. I just don't think this will keep Obama from making a strong statement because Russia has created this whole thing, from Crimea to feeding the separatists in the East Ukraine. It's not just these idiots running the SAM site making one mistake, it's all the effort from the Russians to foment this violence and now non-Ukrainians/Russians have been killed. Obama has already spoke out against it, I don't see how he steps back or does nothing now. He has been pretty good on this, I think, at least in terms of what he has said on Crimea and up until now.

And look don't forget the EU, the Dutch and others in Europe. They haven't shot down any flights in the past and they are going to be angry about this.

 

[Tackling Dummies]

Third of the people on MH17 were top AIDS researchers heading to Melbourne for the AIDS conference.

If we ever find out who is responsible I don't think anyone could save them from the response of the international community, I really think the United States should take a back seat on this one and let the U.N. actually be a legitimate organization.

Glass half empty.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Third of the people on MH17 were top AIDS researchers heading to Melbourne for the AIDS conference.

If we ever find out who is responsible I don't think anyone could save them from the response of the international community, I really think the United States should take a back seat on this one and let the U.N. actually be a legitimate organization.

Agreed, but the US will absolutely have to back up its allies and frankly they need us in this.

 

[Quez]

CNN just played the recordings of the separatists when they shot down the plane and then came to realize what they had done.

Absolute certified idiots.

By the way they refer to "cossaks", I don't know if those are necessarily separatists.

Thank god all these terrorist make videos of themselves taking responsibility for attacks.

 

[whoknew]

There are tragedies every day, should the president simply cancel all plans, to properly mourn the fact that people are dying in conflicts around the globe? Perhaps attend a daily memorial for anyone killed in an attack in the previous 24-hours?

At the end of the day, the media is making this out to be a bigger deal than it really is. There will be no consequences here, we'll probably never even know who or why the plane was shot down.

You don't think its a big deal that a passenger plane was shot the #### down? The media isn't making this a big deal - it is a big ####### deal.

And we do know who did it. We know exactly who did it. We have audio of them talking about it after it was done.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

CNN reporter Christiane Amanpour reports that the lead reporter for Russia Today TV has resigned, stating he will no longer report the propaganda and is insisting on "the truth" to come out in Russia.

This could have domestic consequences for Putin too.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

CNN just played the recordings of the separatists when they shot down the plane and then came to realize what they had done.

Absolute certified idiots.

By the way they refer to "cossaks", I don't know if those are necessarily separatists.

Thank god all these terrorist make videos of themselves taking responsibility for attacks.

It was the Ukraine military eavesdropping on the separatists' radio communications.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

CNN reporter Christiane Amanpour reports that the lead reporter for Russia Today TV has resigned, stating he will no longer report the propaganda and is insisting on "the truth" to come out in Russia.

This could have domestic consequences for Putin too.

In the midst of such a tragedy we always seem to focus on the unimportant stuff - almost 300 people aren't with their families today for no reason other than there is evil in the world - but that aside, this is really interesting to me.

It takes a rather prideful amount of brass balls to be a public person in Russia and so publically stand against Putin in anything, especially something that could be so drastic a gamechanger on the international front. It is this kind of smaller stuff that make the bigger story balloon that much faster and into something I think. A few reporters demand to tell the truth, a politician reveals internal information, someone way too high up for anyone's good has a crisis of conscious and on and on.

 

[Da Guru]

Video of falling plane: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ffc_1405644832

Damn

A couple of things. Seems like the missile hit the wing or engine, the plane seemed pretty much intact on the way day. Had to be horrifying. Second, the person who was shooting the video is not saying a word, no "Oh my god, or WTH is going on" nothing. I think if I was watching something like that I would be screaming something.

 

[Quez]

Why on earth did this plane fly over a known war zone where similar large transport planes have been shot down? That is the important question. IMO we shouldn't blame either side more than the other for a casualty of war. This crap happens in wars. The real responsibility lies with those that either diverted or planned this plane to travel over a known war zone.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Statement of Dutch PM:

In a statement released earlier, the Netherlands' King Willem-Alexander said he was "deeply shocked" at the news of the crash.

"If it transpires that the plane was indeed shot down, we insist that the perpetrators must swiftly be brought to justice," Najib said.

These are our allies.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

CNN reporter Christiane Amanpour reports that the lead reporter for Russia Today TV has resigned, stating he will no longer report the propaganda and is insisting on "the truth" to come out in Russia.

This could have domestic consequences for Putin too.

In the midst of such a tragedy we always seem to focus on the unimportant stuff - almost 300 people aren't with their families today for no reason other than there is evil in the world - but that aside, this is really interesting to me.

It takes a rather prideful amount of brass balls to be a public person in Russia and so publically stand against Putin in anything, especially something that could be so drastic a gamechanger on the international front. It is this kind of smaller stuff that make the bigger story balloon that much faster and into something I think. A few reporters demand to tell the truth, a politician reveals internal information, someone way too high up for anyone's good has a crisis of conscious and on and on.

Absolutely. And Putin rests right on top of a big pile of propaganda. What happens when people just won't believe what they're being told.