Malaysian plane shot down in Ukraine. (1 Viewer)

[Sabertooth]

Is that your BIL in your avatar CCC2?

No way, dude! That's me!

You're hardcore.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

File this under Just Can't Take It Anymore:

Another Russia Today anchor has resigned from her post at the Kremlin-funded TV network.

• "I resigned from RT today. I have huge respect for many in the team, but I'm for the truth."
• "We do work for Putin. We are asked on a daily basis if not to totally ignore then to obscure the truth."
• "Holland wakes up to at least 154 death doll in MH17 disaster. Dutch woman told me that lost lives are felt acutely in "such a small country""

Corespondent Sara Firth's announcement came nearly two hours after she stated on Twitter that RT anchors "do work for Putin" and spread "lies," in a conversation with RT London correspondent Polly Boiko. Firth alleged that the network asks its anchors to "obscure the truth," and now she is saying she's had enough.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/18/sara-firth-resigns-russia-today-lies-anchor_n_5598815.html

https://twitter.com/ukTanos/statuses/490059744611414016

 

[Quez]

Statement of Dutch PM:

In a statement released earlier, the Netherlands' King Willem-Alexander said he was "deeply shocked" at the news of the crash.

"If it transpires that the plane was indeed shot down, we insist that the perpetrators must swiftly be brought to justice," Najib said.

These are our allies.

This is all too similar to Syria. All of our allies immediately blamed Assad and wanted to over throw the Syrian government because of a chemical weapons attack that nobody could 100% verify who carried it out. What are we going to do, go to war with Russia because some of the rebels that use their weapons? (all the weapons being used by both sides were likely acquired from Russia at some point).

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

If this is true, that's a problem:

Russian GRU officer Strelkov admitting that he ordered the missile strike against the Malaysian jet.

https://twitter.com/McFaul

https://twitter.com/Sara__Firth?original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2014%2F07%2F18%2Fsara-firth-resigns-russia-today-lies-anchor_n_5598815.html&tw_i=490070995831910401&tw_p=tweetembed

Fyi to those who don't know GRU is Russian military intelligence (I believe).

And btw the audio recordings refer to "cossacks" I wonder if they mean the Russian military special/intelligence troops that have been seeded into all this since Crimea.

Huge HUGE problem if Russian personnel were on site IMO.

 

[Sabertooth]

Takes real balls to quit and come out publicly like that. Hope neither of these reporters is in danger.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Statement of Dutch PM:

In a statement released earlier, the Netherlands' King Willem-Alexander said he was "deeply shocked" at the news of the crash.

"If it transpires that the plane was indeed shot down, we insist that the perpetrators must swiftly be brought to justice," Najib said.

These are our allies.

This is all too similar to Syria. All of our allies immediately blamed Assad and wanted to over throw the Syrian government because of a chemical weapons attack that nobody could 100% verify who carried it out. What are we going to do, go to war with Russia because some of the rebels that use their weapons? (all the weapons being used by both sides were likely acquired from Russia at some point).

No, we're not going to war. Honestly Obama's been good on this so far, and frankly the EU has been less than strong in following up.

But Putin is creating an untenable situation. He has been riding a tiger. Sounds like a bad Russian joke, but at some point Tiger Rides You.

 

[Sabertooth]

If this is true, that's a problem:

Russian GRU officer Strelkov admitting that he ordered the missile strike against the Malaysian jet.

https://twitter.com/McFaul

https://twitter.com/Sara__Firth?original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2014%2F07%2F18%2Fsara-firth-resigns-russia-today-lies-anchor_n_5598815.html&tw_i=490070995831910401&tw_p=tweetembed

Fyi to those who don't know GRU is Russian military intelligence (I believe).

And btw the audio recordings refer to "cossacks" I wonder if they mean the Russian military special/intelligence troops that have been seeded into all this since Crimea.

Huge HUGE problem if Russian personnel were on site IMO.

Also, this guy.

 

[Sinn Fein]

If this is true, that's a problem:

Russian GRU officer Strelkov admitting that he ordered the missile strike against the Malaysian jet.

https://twitter.com/McFaul

https://twitter.com/Sara__Firth?original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2014%2F07%2F18%2Fsara-firth-resigns-russia-today-lies-anchor_n_5598815.html&tw_i=490070995831910401&tw_p=tweetembed

Fyi to those who don't know GRU is Russian military intelligence (I believe).

And btw the audio recordings refer to "cossacks" I wonder if they mean the Russian military special/intelligence troops that have been seeded into all this since Crimea.

Huge HUGE problem if Russian personnel were on site IMO.

Have you considered changing your username to Hyperbole?

 

[Steve Tasker]

CNN reporter Christiane Amanpour reports that the lead reporter for Russia Today TV has resigned, stating he will no longer report the propaganda and is insisting on "the truth" to come out in Russia.

This could have domestic consequences for Putin too.

In the midst of such a tragedy we always seem to focus on the unimportant stuff - almost 300 people aren't with their families today for no reason other than there is evil in the world - but that aside, this is really interesting to me.

It takes a rather prideful amount of brass balls to be a public person in Russia and so publically stand against Putin in anything, especially something that could be so drastic a gamechanger on the international front. It is this kind of smaller stuff that make the bigger story balloon that much faster and into something I think. A few reporters demand to tell the truth, a politician reveals internal information, someone way too high up for anyone's good has a crisis of conscious and on and on.

this is interesting.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

If this is true, that's a problem:

Russian GRU officer Strelkov admitting that he ordered the missile strike against the Malaysian jet.

https://twitter.com/McFaul

https://twitter.com/Sara__Firth?original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2014%2F07%2F18%2Fsara-firth-resigns-russia-today-lies-anchor_n_5598815.html&tw_i=490070995831910401&tw_p=tweetembed

Fyi to those who don't know GRU is Russian military intelligence (I believe).

And btw the audio recordings refer to "cossacks" I wonder if they mean the Russian military special/intelligence troops that have been seeded into all this since Crimea.

Huge HUGE problem if Russian personnel were on site IMO.

Have you considered changing your username to Hyperbole?

Ha. Too strong?

But it would be a very big development if Russian personnel were there, use your own phrasing. I think it would be a big deal, especially considering Russians have denied being involved from Day 1.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

If this is true, that's a problem:

Russian GRU officer Strelkov admitting that he ordered the missile strike against the Malaysian jet.

https://twitter.com/McFaul

https://twitter.com/Sara__Firth?original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2014%2F07%2F18%2Fsara-firth-resigns-russia-today-lies-anchor_n_5598815.html&tw_i=490070995831910401&tw_p=tweetembed

Fyi to those who don't know GRU is Russian military intelligence (I believe).

And btw the audio recordings refer to "cossacks" I wonder if they mean the Russian military special/intelligence troops that have been seeded into all this since Crimea.

Huge HUGE problem if Russian personnel were on site IMO.

Also, this guy.

Yes, Boris may make an appearance as well, sans Squirrel.

 

[Stinger Ray]

Video of falling plane: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ffc_1405644832

Damn

A couple of things. Seems like the missile hit the wing or engine, the plane seemed pretty much intact on the way day. Had to be horrifying. Second, the person who was shooting the video is not saying a word, no "Oh my god, or WTH is going on" nothing. I think if I was watching something like that I would be screaming something.

It's not that plane!!! It's been posted several times in this thread.

 

[Mr Non Sequitur]

Just scrolling over the video clips from the morning talk circuit and I cannot believe what I am hearing. I'll give you an example. On MSNBC this morning or Morning Joe, some guy who can barely form sentences is trying to come up with a plausible explanation about how the folks who committed this atrocity were mistaken in thinking the plane was another cargo plane...I'm saying to myself WHO GIVES A #### if it was a mistake or not, my question is what the hell are these fighters doing with such sophisticated weapons in the first place? And if they are being supplied by Russia, what then?

I understand we can't start a war with Russia but how is this acceptable on any level?

It's so aggravating to see a large chunk of the media here trying to come up with some explanation to justify the actions of these murderers and I cannot understand why. Obama and the administration is not going to launch a war against Russia but that doesn't mean the media should not be placing the blame squarely on Putin and putting as much pressure as they can on journalists around the world to report the truth here.

Did I read that some journalists in Russia are resigning?

 

[jonessed]

Why on earth did this plane fly over a known war zone where similar large transport planes have been shot down? That is the important question. IMO we shouldn't blame either side more than the other for a casualty of war. This crap happens in wars. The real responsibility lies with those that either diverted or planned this plane to travel over a known war zone.

They were in an area that was considered safe and was in use by other airlines. The early reporting from CNN was flat out wrong.

 

[timschochet]

Ultimately the blame is with Putin, because he chose to arm a bunch of crazy separatists and they screwed up and shot down the wrong plane. Of course the Russian government can never admit this, but perhaps it will result in their taking a step back from their Ukraine shenanigans. If so, that would be a good thing.

As for us, we should stay low key and not make accusations. Let other countries do that.

 

[msommer]

Latest is no confirmed Americans on board but 4 of unconfirmed nationality

189 Dutch

27 Australians

44 Malaysians

12 Indonesians

9 Brits

4 Germans

4 Belgians

3 Filipinos

1 Canadian

1 New Zealander

And no mayday

Updated numbers, still no Americans

only four unconfirmed left, but that adds up to 298...

 

[Sabertooth]

Ultimately the blame is with Putin, because he chose to arm a bunch of crazy separatists and they screwed up and shot down the wrong plane. Of course the Russian government can never admit this, but perhaps it will result in their taking a step back from their Ukraine shenanigans. If so, that would be a good thing.

As for us, we should stay low key and not make accusations. Let other countries do that.

Yeah, shame on Russia for arming a ragtag bunch of militants. It doesn't end well generally.

 

[Run It Up]

my question is what the hell are these fighters doing with such sophisticated weapons in the first place? And if they are being supplied by Russia, what then?

The rebels obtained the SAMs either by literally taking them from the Ukrainian military or by being given them by the Russian military.

 

[Quez]

I'm saying to myself WHO GIVES A #### if it was a mistake or not, my question is what the hell are these fighters doing with such sophisticated weapons in the first place? And if they are being supplied by Russia, what then?

I understand we can't start a war with Russia but how is this acceptable on any level?

It's so aggravating to see a large chunk of the media here trying to come up with some explanation to justify the actions of these murderers and I cannot understand why. Obama and the administration is not going to launch a war against Russia but that doesn't mean the media should not be placing the blame squarely on Putin and putting as much pressure as they can on journalists around the world to report the truth here.

Did I read that some journalists in Russia are resigning?

The explanation the U.S. gave when supplying the Syrian rebels was that if we didn't someone else would, like Saudi Arabia. I'm sure Russia will say the same thing.If we are going to hold Russia responsible for the actions of those with their weapons, then do we do the same with those with U.S. weapons? Because there is a good chance the guys that killed ambassador Stevens was killed with weapons we supplied Libyan rebels to overthrow Gaddafi. And, it is highly likely some of these ISIS guys are using weapons we or Saudi Arabia gave to Syrian rebels, because we had no idea who they were, and some were Al Qaida.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Strobe Talbot former Deputy Secretary of State under Clinton confirming that Russian GBU (military intelligence) commander boasting of shootdown:

.@Steven_Pifer & @HannahThoburn credit Strelkov boast on VKontakte of "AN-26" shootdown at time & place of MH crash.

Analysis of disputed Strelkov's post on "bird drop" with "no civilian casualties" before he knew it was wrong bird.

Donetsk commander Strelkov, longtime Russian agent, claimed credit today for shooting plane he thought was Ukrainian

Here is a translation by The Interpreter of the dispatch as it originally appeared at Svodki Strelkova Igora Ivanovicha, or “Igor Ivanovich Strelkov’s Dispatches”, a community at the popular Russian social networking site VKontakte:

As we reported 17 July, this post that originally appeared on the “Strelkov’s Dispatches” VKontakte group showed that the pro-Russian separatists were boasting about having downed yet another Ukrainian airplane — or maybe even two — just as they had done on 14 July with a powerful anti-aircraft system in Krasnodon.

“In the area of Torez, we have just shot down an AN-26 airplane, it is scattered about somewhere by the Progress coal mine.

We warned them – don’t fly ‘in our sky.’

Here is a video confirmation of the latest ‘bird drop.’

The bird fell beyond the slag heap, it did not damage the residential sector.

Civilians were not hurt.

There is also information about a second downed airplane, apparently an SU.”

As this apparent admission of the downing of the plane seemed to be a smoking gun in the tragedy of the Malaysian airline, it has come under much scrutiny as possibly a “fake” or just a blog post of an unofficial Strelkov fan group that might be prone to erroneous postings.

From our long observation of this Vkontakte group and other Strelkov-related pages, we would have to say this is not the case – this group’s publications have long been cited by regional media and the same talking points as the dispatch were also used by Russian state media and Ukrainian media from other separatist sources .

First, the VKontakte group isn’t just a random fan group; it’s an established group of supporters now numbering more than 137,000 followers which has been publishing “Strelkov Dispatches” for weeks, many of which have tracked events corroborated by other sources or which are consistent with the separatists’ narrative as Strelkov himself says on camera in video addresses or at news conferences uploaded to YouTube.

Second, the DPR, whatever its internal differences or “rag-tag” image is a militant cadre organization in the Soviet style with vertical command, tight internal “party discipline” and control of its news and statements. Strelkov is widely reported to be an officer in the GRU, or Russian military intelligence, and recently admitted to having served in the Federal Security Service (FSB) as well. The self-declared prime minister, Aleksandr Boroday, a Muscovite and political consultant long active in ultranationalists causes, is also said to be an FSB officer. He pays close attention to the messaging of the group and has developing increasingly sophisticated methods of news broadcasting with flashy graphics, music, and maps to convey the separatists’ narrative and interests. It would not be possible for such a large social media group to be formed and persist for this long if it didn’t have Boroday’s approval and if it wasn’t consistently “on message” with Strelkov and other leaders.

The 17 July message on the purported “Ukrainian plane” downing wasn’t removed hastily — it remained in view for hours while hundreds of others copied it on Vkontakte, Facebook, Twitter and LiveJournal “as is” — and then others began to discuss the implications of the seeming admission.

But more importantly, mainstream Russian state news agencies and topical discussion sites used the dispatch, as did Ukrainian sites, and it either still remains online or is visible in Google cache.

http://www.interpretermag.com/was-col-strelkovs-dispatch-about-a-downed-ukrainian-plane-authentic/

https://twitter.com/strobetalbott

This goes all the way to Moscow, folks.

 

[Mr Non Sequitur]

my question is what the hell are these fighters doing with such sophisticated weapons in the first place? And if they are being supplied by Russia, what then?

The rebels obtained the SAMs either by literally taking them from the Ukrainian military or by being given them by the Russian military.

Are you saying that the weapon that took down the airplane was Ukrainian?

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

Is that your BIL in your avatar CCC2?

No way, dude! That's me!

You're hardcore.

Just started a thread about it.

 

[Run It Up]

my question is what the hell are these fighters doing with such sophisticated weapons in the first place? And if they are being supplied by Russia, what then?

The rebels obtained the SAMs either by literally taking them from the Ukrainian military or by being given them by the Russian military.

Are you saying that the weapon that took down the airplane was Ukrainian?

The Ukrainian ambassador to the UK said that the area the missile was fired from, was an area in Ukraine that had SAMs vehicles (that belonged to the Ukrainian military) but was currently occupied by rebels (referred to as terrorists by the ambassador). They couldn't confirm whether the missile was fired from one of theirs, or the Russians.

Said that about an hour ago.

When they (the Ukrainians) said they didn't have the capabilities to shoot it down, what they meant was they didn't have any SAMs in the area that they were currently in control of.

 

[Mr Non Sequitur]

I'm saying to myself WHO GIVES A #### if it was a mistake or not, my question is what the hell are these fighters doing with such sophisticated weapons in the first place? And if they are being supplied by Russia, what then?

I understand we can't start a war with Russia but how is this acceptable on any level?

It's so aggravating to see a large chunk of the media here trying to come up with some explanation to justify the actions of these murderers and I cannot understand why. Obama and the administration is not going to launch a war against Russia but that doesn't mean the media should not be placing the blame squarely on Putin and putting as much pressure as they can on journalists around the world to report the truth here.

Did I read that some journalists in Russia are resigning?

The explanation the U.S. gave when supplying the Syrian rebels was that if we didn't someone else would, like Saudi Arabia. I'm sure Russia will say the same thing.If we are going to hold Russia responsible for the actions of those with their weapons, then do we do the same with those with U.S. weapons? Because there is a good chance the guys that killed ambassador Stevens was killed with weapons we supplied Libyan rebels to overthrow Gaddafi. And, it is highly likely some of these ISIS guys are using weapons we or Saudi Arabia gave to Syrian rebels, because we had no idea who they were, and some were Al Qaida.

America has and will always have blood on its own hands from previous mistakes but does that mean that we just not even raise an eyebrow when this kind of stuff happens? I'm asking because we have a new generation of under 35-40 crowd that seems to feel pacifism is the wave of the future.

OK, so its pinned to these rebels in the Ukraine...20-25 Americans if reports are correct were killed on this plane. Either Russia disbands these rebels or we do it. I can't believe they were controlling the crime scene when an ABC reporter who was first on the scene yesterday was not allowed past a certain point at the crash site. Who is in control there now?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I don't know what is more scary/worrisome/troublesome/conspiracy laden - whatever you want to call it but

We either don't know what happened yet which to me seems impossible given the level of money of spend and assets we have in intelligence, satillites, etc.; or

We know and the information isn't being released yet because of X.

The first makes us rather incompetent, the second - mainly what is X - is where everyone brains run wild and see visions of World War III.

 

[jonessed]

Ultimately the blame is with Putin, because he chose to arm a bunch of crazy separatists and they screwed up and shot down the wrong plane. Of course the Russian government can never admit this, but perhaps it will result in their taking a step back from their Ukraine shenanigans. If so, that would be a good thing.

As for us, we should stay low key and not make accusations. Let other countries do that.

Why? Apparently we have the intelligence to actually identify exactly where the rocket was shot from, which means we can 100% identify who fired it. Is sharing that information an accusation? If sharing how the equipment got to where it did an accusation?

I don't want to start a war with Russia, but resisting calling a spade a spade seems ridiculously timid.

 

[Politician Spock]

Ultimately the blame is with Putin, because he chose to arm a bunch of crazy separatists and they screwed up and shot down the wrong plane.

And by extension we are to blame for many other tragedies caused by us arming a bunch of crazies in other parts of the world.

Of course the Russian government can never admit this,

Nor can the US in those other tragedies.

but perhaps it will result in their taking a step back from their Ukraine shenanigans.

I've been hoping the US would for years now. Not likely though.

If so, that would be a good thing.

I agree. Wishful thinking though.

As for us, we should stay low key and not make accusations. Let other countries do that.

I also agree. Unfortunately we have a huge populace with nothing to do but post accusations on the internet all day long.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Just scrolling over the video clips from the morning talk circuit and I cannot believe what I am hearing. I'll give you an example. On MSNBC this morning or Morning Joe, some guy who can barely form sentences is trying to come up with a plausible explanation about how the folks who committed this atrocity were mistaken in thinking the plane was another cargo plane...I'm saying to myself WHO GIVES A #### if it was a mistake or not, my question is what the hell are these fighters doing with such sophisticated weapons in the first place? And if they are being supplied by Russia, what then?

I understand we can't start a war with Russia but how is this acceptable on any level?

It's so aggravating to see a large chunk of the media here trying to come up with some explanation to justify the actions of these murderers and I cannot understand why. Obama and the administration is not going to launch a war against Russia but that doesn't mean the media should not be placing the blame squarely on Putin and putting as much pressure as they can on journalists around the world to report the truth here.

Did I read that some journalists in Russia are resigning?

I am willing to give some reporters some slack on this, they have to await confirmation of things from real, reliable sources.

But I just heard on CNN a reporter say "Russia is ultimately behind this" or something to that effect. You may hear a change in tone today as things come out.

People are also understating the Russian involvement. They are not just supporting rebels, they are leading them, actual Russian special forces and intelligence officers are leading the rebels and are on the ground with them. The actual leader of teh whole group is out of Moscow.

Yes the lead anchor on Ukraine at Russia Today TV has quit - she won't lie about this.

 

[Politician Spock]

I don't know what is more scary/worrisome/troublesome/conspiracy laden - whatever you want to call it but

We either don't know what happened yet which to me seems impossible given the level of money of spend and assets we have in intelligence, satillites, etc.; or

We know and the information isn't being released yet because of X.

The first makes us rather incompetent, the second - mainly what is X - is where everyone brains run wild and see visions of World War III.

You are towing the line of calling out the CIA for being behind this.

 

[Stinger Ray]

I don't know what is more scary/worrisome/troublesome/conspiracy laden - whatever you want to call it but

We either don't know what happened yet which to me seems impossible given the level of money of spend and assets we have in intelligence, satillites, etc.; or

We know and the information isn't being released yet because of X.

The first makes us rather incompetent, the second - mainly what is X - is where everyone brains run wild and see visions of World War III.

Even if our intelligence knew what happened they wouldn't release it now. They were speaking on CNN earlier today that our intelligence will be review satellite data to analyze where heavy equipment like that was moved from and where it will moved too as well as other equipment. They have a lot of data, chatter, communications etc to analyze over the weekend. They do know where the missile was fired from and the trajectory.

 

[jonessed]

I'm saying to myself WHO GIVES A #### if it was a mistake or not, my question is what the hell are these fighters doing with such sophisticated weapons in the first place? And if they are being supplied by Russia, what then?

I understand we can't start a war with Russia but how is this acceptable on any level?

It's so aggravating to see a large chunk of the media here trying to come up with some explanation to justify the actions of these murderers and I cannot understand why. Obama and the administration is not going to launch a war against Russia but that doesn't mean the media should not be placing the blame squarely on Putin and putting as much pressure as they can on journalists around the world to report the truth here.

Did I read that some journalists in Russia are resigning?

The explanation the U.S. gave when supplying the Syrian rebels was that if we didn't someone else would, like Saudi Arabia. I'm sure Russia will say the same thing.If we are going to hold Russia responsible for the actions of those with their weapons, then do we do the same with those with U.S. weapons? Because there is a good chance the guys that killed ambassador Stevens was killed with weapons we supplied Libyan rebels to overthrow Gaddafi. And, it is highly likely some of these ISIS guys are using weapons we or Saudi Arabia gave to Syrian rebels, because we had no idea who they were, and some were Al Qaida.

I don't see how you can compare small arms to an advanced piece of machinery like a mobile SAM unit. These things aren't point and click.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Has there been a definitive statement on whether Americans were on board?

Supposedly ex Pres. Clinton knew one of the people on board, one of the Aids activists.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Some of you guys are certifiable imo

Nothing will come of this. No retaliation by western countries, no scaling back by Russia.

Malaysia Air may have a new name in a few weeks, but that is about it.

It was an accident, at least until they shoot down a second airliner...

 

[Sinn Fein]

Has there been a definitive statement on whether Americans were on board?

Supposedly ex Pres. Clinton knew one of the people on board, one of the Aids activists.

Why does that matter?

 

[avoiding injuries]

Latest is no confirmed Americans on board but 4 of unconfirmed nationality

189 Dutch

27 Australians

44 Malaysians

12 Indonesians

9 Brits

4 Germans

4 Belgians

3 Filipinos

1 Canadian

1 New Zealander

And no mayday

Updated numbers, still no Americans

only four unconfirmed left, but that adds up to 298...

I'm not sure if you're asking, but the number went from 295 to 298 because there were 3 infants on board that were sitting on their parents laps.

 

[Mr Non Sequitur]

Ultimately the blame is with Putin, because he chose to arm a bunch of crazy separatists and they screwed up and shot down the wrong plane.

And by extension we are to blame for many other tragedies caused by us arming a bunch of crazies in other parts of the world.

I've forgiven myself and moved on, you should do the same. I'm joking but if we are gonna use this argument we might as well just disband and allow another country to come in and take over. Either you can forgive America(your mother country) and realize no country is perfect or perhaps you don't have the iron constitution it takes to be a true American

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Has there been a definitive statement on whether Americans were on board?

Supposedly ex Pres. Clinton knew one of the people on board, one of the Aids activists.

Why does that matter?

It's a question. Looking for facts.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Some of you guys are certifiable imo

Nothing will come of this. No retaliation by western countries, no scaling back by Russia.

Malaysia Air may have a new name in a few weeks, but that is about it.

It was an accident, at least until they shoot down a second airliner...

Tell you this much...

...Malaysian Airlines will need to rebrand to something like Qantas or something like that. Tough year for them.

 

[moleculo]

so apparently international law dictates that when there is a plane crash, the country where the crash occurs has responsibility to launch the formal investigation. That would be Ukraine. However, allegedly the separatists are controlling the site and may send the black box to Russia.

If that happens, and Ukraine is the one supposed to do the investigation, what happens if Russia refuses to cooperate? what happens if the Ukrainian ***official*** investigation is not allowed to proceed by the separatists?

IMO, this would more than justify the EU stepping in here, the Dutch specifically. And, as the Netherlands are a founding country of NATO, we will be involved too.

Russia would be wise to backtrack and start making amends - i.e. bringing responsible parties to justice (not Russian justice, but in the Netherlands and/or Malaysia) and start reigning in their separatist comrades. Based on what we know now, this is what I want to see happen. Anything short of this will lead to escalation.

Also, this is not Obamas mess. This has nothing to do with us, so can we please stop worrying about what Obama is doing?

 

[jonessed]

Has there been a definitive statement on whether Americans were on board?

Supposedly ex Pres. Clinton knew one of the people on board, one of the Aids activists.

Identifying the nationalities on an EU flight should be pretty easy. The accounting I have seen has been complete (all passengers accounted for) and it hasn't included Americans.

 

[Mr Non Sequitur]

Over 100 of the World's most renowned researchers in the field of Aids were en route to a conference in Australia, many of them were speakers at the conference set to begin this Sunday.

That's gonna leave a mark.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Has there been a definitive statement on whether Americans were on board?

Supposedly ex Pres. Clinton knew one of the people on board, one of the Aids activists.

Identifying the nationalities on an EU flight should be pretty easy. The accounting I have seen has been complete (all passengers accounted for) and it hasn't included Americans.

Ok thanks. I was looking at Yankee's post above and wasn't sure if that hadn't been reported. Thanks.

 

[Mr Non Sequitur]

so apparently international law dictates that when there is a plane crash, the country where the crash occurs has responsibility to launch the formal investigation. That would be Ukraine. However, allegedly the separatists are controlling the site and may send the black box to Russia.

If that happens, and Ukraine is the one supposed to do the investigation, what happens if Russia refuses to cooperate? what happens if the Ukrainian ***official*** investigation is not allowed to proceed by the separatists?

IMO, this would more than justify the EU stepping in here, the Dutch specifically. And, as the Netherlands are a founding country of NATO, we will be involved too.

Russia would be wise to backtrack and start making amends - i.e. bringing responsible parties to justice (not Russian justice, but in the Netherlands and/or Malaysia) and start reigning in their separatist comrades. Based on what we know now, this is what I want to see happen. Anything short of this will lead to escalation.

Also, this is not Obamas mess. This has nothing to do with us, so can we please stop worrying about what Obama is doing?

It's a terrible tragedy

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Over 100 of the World's most renowned researchers in the field of Aids were en route to a conference in Australia, many of them were speakers at the conference set to begin this Sunday.

That's gonna leave a mark.

That's truly horrible, compounds the tragedy.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Has there been a definitive statement on whether Americans were on board?

Supposedly ex Pres. Clinton knew one of the people on board, one of the Aids activists.

Why does that matter?

It's a question. Looking for facts.

Ok, let me re-phrase, why do you want to know? Does it change your impression of the incident to know if Americans were on board? Is it more, or less, tragic? Should we retaliate if there was an American on board, and sit back if there were no Americans?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

so apparently international law dictates that when there is a plane crash, the country where the crash occurs has responsibility to launch the formal investigation. That would be Ukraine. However, allegedly the separatists are controlling the site and may send the black box to Russia.

If that happens, and Ukraine is the one supposed to do the investigation, what happens if Russia refuses to cooperate? what happens if the Ukrainian ***official*** investigation is not allowed to proceed by the separatists?

IMO, this would more than justify the EU stepping in here, the Dutch specifically. And, as the Netherlands are a founding country of NATO, we will be involved too.

Russia would be wise to backtrack and start making amends - i.e. bringing responsible parties to justice (not Russian justice, but in the Netherlands and/or Malaysia) and start reigning in their separatist comrades. Based on what we know now, this is what I want to see happen. Anything short of this will lead to escalation.

Also, this is not Obamas mess. This has nothing to do with us, so can we please stop worrying about what Obama is doing?

CNN has confirmed that Russia (not the separatists) has taken the black box and the SAM launcher.

 

[Mr Non Sequitur]

Has there been a definitive statement on whether Americans were on board?

Supposedly ex Pres. Clinton knew one of the people on board, one of the Aids activists.

Why does that matter?

It's a question. Looking for facts.

Ok, let me re-phrase, why do you want to know? Does it change your impression of the incident to know if Americans were on board? Is it more, or less, tragic? Should we retaliate if there was an American on board, and sit back if there were no Americans?

Can we retaliate?

 

[timschochet]

Ultimately the blame is with Putin, because he chose to arm a bunch of crazy separatists and they screwed up and shot down the wrong plane. Of course the Russian government can never admit this, but perhaps it will result in their taking a step back from their Ukraine shenanigans. If so, that would be a good thing.

As for us, we should stay low key and not make accusations. Let other countries do that.

Why? Apparently we have the intelligence to actually identify exactly where the rocket was shot from, which means we can 100% identify who fired it. Is sharing that information an accusation? If sharing how the equipment got to where it did an accusation? I don't want to start a war with Russia, but resisting calling a spade a spade seems ridiculously timid.

I really don't care about timidity. We need to work with Russia on a whole variety of issues. Calling them out on this serves us no purpose, especially if, as expected, they continue to deny complicity. Let others call them out.

 

[moleculo]

so apparently international law dictates that when there is a plane crash, the country where the crash occurs has responsibility to launch the formal investigation. That would be Ukraine. However, allegedly the separatists are controlling the site and may send the black box to Russia.

If that happens, and Ukraine is the one supposed to do the investigation, what happens if Russia refuses to cooperate? what happens if the Ukrainian ***official*** investigation is not allowed to proceed by the separatists?

IMO, this would more than justify the EU stepping in here, the Dutch specifically. And, as the Netherlands are a founding country of NATO, we will be involved too.

Russia would be wise to backtrack and start making amends - i.e. bringing responsible parties to justice (not Russian justice, but in the Netherlands and/or Malaysia) and start reigning in their separatist comrades. Based on what we know now, this is what I want to see happen. Anything short of this will lead to escalation.

Also, this is not Obamas mess. This has nothing to do with us, so can we please stop worrying about what Obama is doing?

CNN has confirmed that Russia (not the separatists) has taken the black box and the SAM launcher.

from what I understand of international law (very little), that should go to Kiev so Ukraine can launch their investigation. Any refusal by Moscow to cooperate would paint them as guilty, IMO.

 

[tom22406]

I doubt they will learn much of anything from the black box because more than likely the pilots had no idea a missle was coming at them.

Getting a better look at the wreckage would confirm without any doubts a missle was responsible.