Kwai Chang Caine
Footballguy
I am in two leagues. One over Garson and one over Leveon Bell. Swinging for fences because of bye weeks and I think Bell stinks.
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Mark Ingram (2 Viewers)
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Kwai Chang Caine
Footballguy
Well that worked out well...
Whoever writes the Ingram blurbs for Rotoworld must really hate the guy. I did not think Ingram was that horrible at all. Obviously, neither did the Saints coaching staff.
He clearly lacks confidence, which seems to often make him force the designed play rather than actually look for a hole or bounce out. I don't know if that's fixable, but am quite hesitant to prononuce him DOA. More likely than not, he gets a good contract somewhere else next year.
He clearly lacks confidence, which seems to often make him force the designed play rather than actually look for a hole or bounce out. I don't know if that's fixable, but am quite hesitant to prononuce him DOA. More likely than not, he gets a good contract somewhere else next year.
Kwai Chang Caine
Footballguy
Part of the problem too is that he never gets a chance to establish a rhythm. One carry per series if he's lucky. They also had him in for. All three plays at the one and never gave him a handoff. When he is in the game it's pretty obvious they are going to hand off whereas with Thomas you never know.
All that said, I'll never start him again this year. I gambled and I don't blindly follow rankings (playing Glennon over RG3 as well) but I had a feeling he might get a chance to salt the game away like he did against Dallas.
Win some lose some. At least my opponent has Richardson going so maybe it'll be a wash
It was unfortunate they decided to throw the ball twice at the goal line in the 1st quarter and give the handoff to Jed Collins. Although Ingram did block two ATL pass rushers at once on the 1st down play. That was not shabby. I think it was around the 2:17 mark (1st Q).
Also interesting was the 3rd and 1 when they gave it to Pierre Thomas... six in the box on 3rd and short. All these comparisons between PT and Ingram need to stop. Anyone with eyeballs and half a brain can tell that defenses react differently to the two backs, but holy crap. Who only puts six in the box on 3rd and 1? I think you could count the number of times Ingram has seen six in the box on one hand.
Don't get me wrong. Pierre Thomas is a very good player. The Saints should've been giving him 200 touches years ago. But I don't think Ingram is bad. He's just not going to look good getting 1 carry every 10 plays in obvious running situations.
Also interesting was the 3rd and 1 when they gave it to Pierre Thomas... six in the box on 3rd and short. All these comparisons between PT and Ingram need to stop. Anyone with eyeballs and half a brain can tell that defenses react differently to the two backs, but holy crap. Who only puts six in the box on 3rd and 1? I think you could count the number of times Ingram has seen six in the box on one hand.
Don't get me wrong. Pierre Thomas is a very good player. The Saints should've been giving him 200 touches years ago. But I don't think Ingram is bad. He's just not going to look good getting 1 carry every 10 plays in obvious running situations.
Breesisdaman
Footballguy
I don't think Ingram is a bad a running back as he has been up to this point. I think his injuries have had the best of him but I do think he still lacks vision. He showed that again last night. PT just separated himself further out in front IMO.
Nero
Footballguy
Lacking vision is what makes you a bad running back. The bum almost cost the Saints the game (I'm a homer). The Saints had 1st and 15 from the Atlanta 49 with about 8:45 left in the game. Mark Ingram off right tackle, bounces to the outside pushed out of bounds for no gain. They show the replay from behind the offensive line and it was PERFECTLY blocked. He didn't have to force a play, nothing to do with stacked boxes, just follow the plays' design and he get at least 7 or 8 yards. Mike Mayock pointed out the blunder using the telestrator. It was a drive killer. The Saints stalled out and gave Atlanta the ball with a chance to take the lead. Its egregious that they continue to play him. Khiry Robinson is so much better.Breesisdaman said:
Nero
Footballguy
JFS171
Footballguy
I would argue that goes back to the confidence thing. Ingram's clearly either trying to do too much or thinking too much when he gets the ball. Maybe that's the lack of rhythm? It did seem that he'd get the ball, have a good run, and he's right back out of the game. He didn't get an entire series to establish himself, unless we count the first series of the game when he started and the Saints went 3 and out.
I still see the talent, and I think Ingram would be a fine running back on a team that utilized him as that foundation-type back. I'll gladly hold in dynasty.
Sorry, but I disagree on this. Defenses are worried about Brees, period. They are not game planning against Thomas or Ingram. I think I posted in this thread a while back about how many short yardage TDs there were from passing, far overwhelming Ingram's short yardage TDs. On short yardage, the defenses are still more worried about Brees than Ingram or Thomas. If the commit to stop the run, a play action fake could be a TD pass or a long gain, which is far worse than just giving up a first down.FF Ninja said:
If you watched last night, remember Brees' throw to Meachem when they were running the clock out? The Saints O is pass happy and is more than happy to pass the ball in any scenario. Hence six in the box against Thomas. I would bet it wouldn't have mattered if Ingram was in or not.
I'm not sure why you say you disagree, then provide evidence that agrees with his post.
The reason Thomas saw 6 in the box on a short-yardage play (if he did, I didn't see the play & I am not positive of which play he is referencing) would be because the D was more worried about Brees than about Thomas running the ball.
When Ingram is in the game, he is rarely used in the passing game, so that is a "key" for the Defense. That doesn't mean that they ignore Brees and the passing game, but that they are more focused on the run.
Suggesting that defenders pay more attention to the potential of a run when Ingram is in the backfield DOES NOT mean they ignore the pass or Brees. You don't have to jump to the most extreme conclusion when this idea is presented.
battlebaby
Footballguy
Since Ingram has returned from injury, Payton has been making an effort to have Ingram out there more in passing situations. The major difference I saw with how they use Ingram and PT in the passing game is the type of routes they run...PT runs a variety of routes out of the backfield, Ingram will either release off his block to run right up the gut for a 5-yard check-down route or he'll run a flat screen out to the right. Brees will look for PT when he runs his routes, but will only look to Ingram if pretty much all of his other reads are covered. Defenses see this too, so when Ingram's in the game, they're not really concerned about scheming him into their pass coverage.
Ingram's large frame and upright running style also rarely allow for him to run a clean route if he gets bumped. Even when he sheds blocks, he looks unbalanced. Ingram has started to show the talent that everyone thought he had when he was coming out of college, but he still hasn't developed his route running to the point where he can be used interchangably with PT and that is absolutely essential if he's ever going to find success in NO.
Ingram's large frame and upright running style also rarely allow for him to run a clean route if he gets bumped. Even when he sheds blocks, he looks unbalanced. Ingram has started to show the talent that everyone thought he had when he was coming out of college, but he still hasn't developed his route running to the point where he can be used interchangably with PT and that is absolutely essential if he's ever going to find success in NO.
Nero
Footballguy
Where in the hell Mark Ingram is going to go to find success? Cleveland's current situation is the only place where he would receive significant carries. He is not better than Dion Lewis though and they are sure to bring someone else in next year. There aren't many other places Pierre could go for success and he is clearly better than Ingram.
Sounds like you're arguing that NO is one of the best situations for a RB to be, which seems ridiculous. There are plenty of places they could go and find success, especially Pierre.
Nero
Footballguy
Where are they going to go and do better than they are doing now? Who is taking a back seat to them? Please tell us?
You don't think either of them could do well in spots like Dallas, Oakland, both NY teams, Atlanta, Cleveland, Arizona, etc?
cubbie5150
Footballguy
I saw it as more of a "we're getting killed so let's save hits on Brees & PT as much as possible."
Otis
Footballguy
I'm really liking Ingram as a cheap dynasty stash for 2014. Give me a former Heisman winner who has oodles of talent but hasn't caught on yet -- found him on my waiver wire a few weeks ago after watching him run (and he ran ANGRY, and hard, and well I thought on the limited touches I saw in that game). He seemed like the perfect swing for the fences stash.
Since then it seems he's being used more and more, maybe as a tryout for a lead role in 2014? Anyone watch yesterday's game and have any thoughts? He got way more carries than anyone else and averaged over 6 YPC. I missed the game but the stat line looks promising.
If Ingram starts to emerge, on that offense, the sky is the limit in terms of upside. Seems well worth a shot.
Thoughts? What's the scoop on him in NO?
Since then it seems he's being used more and more, maybe as a tryout for a lead role in 2014? Anyone watch yesterday's game and have any thoughts? He got way more carries than anyone else and averaged over 6 YPC. I missed the game but the stat line looks promising.
If Ingram starts to emerge, on that offense, the sky is the limit in terms of upside. Seems well worth a shot.
Thoughts? What's the scoop on him in NO?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Ingram was terrific yesterday and most people think he was underused.
I'm serious, he looked great, he could have won that game for NO if they had leaned on him for 20+ carries.
Can't believe I just said that but there it is.
I'm serious, he looked great, he could have won that game for NO if they had leaned on him for 20+ carries.
Can't believe I just said that but there it is.
JFS171
Footballguy
I've not watched a lot of NO this year, but every time I've seen them Ingram has looked like a different guy. I think this is a key offseason for his dynasty value. Entering the last year of his rookie deal, it's time to #### or get off the pot.SaintsInDome2006 said:
NO will probably make a decision on him… either they will look to move him, like they did with Ivory, or I think they'll try to install him in a bigger role. Either one of those two is a bump for his fantasy value.
jurb26
Footballguy
Ingram was the best player on the field yesterday for NO offense. That pretty much wraps his value in NO in a nutshell. This team will live and die by the arm of Brees and the creativity of their play calling.
I've held onto him for a long while in dynasty and I really hope he ends up on another team when his contract is up. NO doesn't want a RB. They want scat backs that can contribute to their passing game first and carry the ball a few times second.
I've held onto him for a long while in dynasty and I really hope he ends up on another team when his contract is up. NO doesn't want a RB. They want scat backs that can contribute to their passing game first and carry the ball a few times second.
az_prof
Footballguy
The problem is that almost every back on an NFL roster can have an occasional game where he looks great. But in Ingram's case, he has far too many where he looks clueless. One or two good games does not make one capable of being a featured back.
Eh, I personally think he can put up decent stats next-year. The big payoff is when he finds himself a home on a new team. I think he can have a Thomas Jones type of resurgence on the right team.
Sure, he'll be a few years older but he won't much mileage on him.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Guy just turned 24 on Saturday. Way too early to give up hope. Especially since Pierre Thomas is 29 and far from special.
We have seen a few glimpses of the talent that made New Orleans trade up for him. With the way the passing game has struggled over the past few weeks, it may be time for Payton to evolve. It would not shock me to see Ingram finally emerge next year. Whether in New Orleans or elsewhere if they decide that they are good with PT/Sproles and either Khiry Robinson or a new guy.
We have seen a few glimpses of the talent that made New Orleans trade up for him. With the way the passing game has struggled over the past few weeks, it may be time for Payton to evolve. It would not shock me to see Ingram finally emerge next year. Whether in New Orleans or elsewhere if they decide that they are good with PT/Sproles and either Khiry Robinson or a new guy.
GeeYouknit
Footballguy
To me, it's clear that he has taken massive improvements from his rookie season. The arrow is pointing upwards for him, just depends on what happens, if he stays in NO as a compliment/depth piece or if he moves somewhere else as a 1st and 2nd down RB.
Breesisdaman
Footballguy
PT and Sproles seem to have hit a wall, maybe it was the brutal schedule against all those top defenses, But Ingram just seems to be looking so much stronger plus he is getting the ball thrown to him now. I don't know if the Saints will part with him now. Seriously they may need to see the writing is on the wall for the older backs and realize what they have in Ingram. Payton also needs to learn to commit to the run by God.
Running backs tend to look stronger at the end of the season after not getting many carries and running against tired defenses. He's not very good. Time to accept it.
Danish Bengal
Footballguy
I got him week 8 more or less as a throw-in along with what turned out to be 1.10 (12 teams) for Ryan Mathews. Mathews had had two good games prior to his week 8 bye, so I thought that was a good time to get rid of him. After he blew up that looked like a bad trade. Now I am not so sure.
Ingram looked very good yesterday. But NO is deep at RB so what are we going to expect next year? Khirby looked good too. Will they keep all four RB's? Maybe yesterday was actually a bad thing for Ingram owners? Perhaps NO now are going to keep him in the largest RBBC in the league instead of shipping him for like a 4th to a team which would use him more?
Ingram looked very good yesterday. But NO is deep at RB so what are we going to expect next year? Khirby looked good too. Will they keep all four RB's? Maybe yesterday was actually a bad thing for Ingram owners? Perhaps NO now are going to keep him in the largest RBBC in the league instead of shipping him for like a 4th to a team which would use him more?
Breesisdaman
Footballguy
Ingram isn't going anywhere. The writing is on the wall and PT and Sproles are on the downside of their careers. Mark is the future of the Saints franchise. Khiry is a good pure runner but he is not near as versatile in other areas of the game as Mark Ingram.
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