Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
He's had good games since I posted that, but touché - I figured this would be quoted sooner than later. Well played, sir.
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Mark Ingram (3 Viewers)
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BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
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Obviously he's going to have good games, but even those aren't nearly as good as they should be thanks to Payton. Apparently now we have to factor in TE's vulturing rushing TDs.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Perhaps you should go check ingram's stats from last year.
they're not using him like they did last year. If they were I'd be elated.
dcgangstas
Footballguy
Got to be tough being an Ingram owner when you have fourth and goal on the 2 and Peyton calls a TE Jet Sweep rather than giving Ingram the TD.
Almost like Peyton saying on Sunday morning, "How can I screw Mark today?"
Almost like Peyton saying on Sunday morning, "How can I screw Mark today?"
Otis
Footballguy
I finally had to package him with some other players and move him. It was maddening.Got to be tough being an Ingram owner when you have fourth and goal on the 2 and Peyton calls a TE Jet Sweep rather than giving Ingram the TD.
Almost like Peyton saying on Sunday morning, "How can I screw Mark today?"
need2know
Footballguy
dcgangstas
Footballguy
Travaris Cadet is even cutting into his passing down work.
Otis
Footballguy
I paid a lot, but got a guy I've loved for a while. Dynasty league for what that's worth. Ingram, Ware, and Duke Johnson for Hyde.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
The Kerminator
Footballguy
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Otis said:
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Hm.Otis said:
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
That's a lot.Otis said:
sign me up for the not Hyde side of this deal.
Otis
Footballguy
It's a good deal for me. Hard for the sharks to see it through all that murky water maybe. But Ingram is the ultimate frustration, Ware is a flash in the pan, and Duke is a nice gadget player who'll never be consistent enough to start in a 10 team dynasty league. I've also got David Johnson, Jordan Howard, and Derrick Henry on that squad. All Hawk favorites.
need2know
Footballguy
Think Payton should watch the AZ/Jets game over and over again and note the usage of DJ.
The thing about Payton that drives me crazy is he has no sense of game management. He's always putting his foot on the gas pedal and throwing. The running game can be leveraged not only to score, but to slow down the game, wear down the opponent, give your (lousy) defense a rest, maintain some momentum, etc.
The Carolina game, if managed properly, should have been over early, but no. Payton is a moron.
The thing about Payton that drives me crazy is he has no sense of game management. He's always putting his foot on the gas pedal and throwing. The running game can be leveraged not only to score, but to slow down the game, wear down the opponent, give your (lousy) defense a rest, maintain some momentum, etc.
The Carolina game, if managed properly, should have been over early, but no. Payton is a moron.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I'm a Niner fan and I will tell you right now that this team will never be good enough during Hyde's window of ability. Your only hope to get max value out of him is if the 49ers trade him to a team that gives a single crap about winning or putting a competitive product on the field. He'll have flashes here and there, but IMO Hyde and Ingram are a wash due to situation.
Given your talent at RB, I would have tried to move some/all of those players for a WR, TE or QB. Packaging 3 RBs for 1 RB in what looks like a lateral move doesn't seem to help you much.
But each to their own - if you're happy with it that's all that matters since it's your team.
One thing to consider is that Hyde has more perceived ability, so you might be able to go 1:1 to get a WR2-type for Hyde now easier than you could have dealt any one of those backs. If I were you I'd be burning up the message board seeking such a trade. Maybe a buy-low on Moncrief or MThomas or something like that.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Or hey, even if they HAVE to pass for some obsessive compulsive disorder on the OC or Payton's behalf, how about getting Ingram into space and throwing him the ball. Again, as you suggest, they should look at David Johnson's use as a receiver - positive plays every time. Ingram is arguably one of the top 5 offensive players on the Saints, yet they all but completely ignore him.
I just don't get it. Hand him the ball 20 times and I bet he goes over 120 yards with a TD. Probably even hits a home run on a breakaway run. And (gasp!) the Saints might even control the clock and win the game.
They should also watch Dallas to see how using a running back helps to hide some weakness on defense. And since the Saints defense is arguably much worse than DAL, it would stand to reason that it's even more important for them to shorten games.
Unless they really love losing in high scoring nail-biters that always come down to the last 2 mins. I guess we can't discount that possibility.
Pigskin Fanatic
Footballguy
Or hey, even if they HAVE to pass for some obsessive compulsive disorder on the OC or Payton's behalf, how about getting Ingram into space and throwing him the ball. Again, as you suggest, they should look at David Johnson's use as a receiver - positive plays every time. Ingram is arguably one of the top 5 offensive players on the Saints, yet they all but completely ignore him.
I just don't get it. Hand him the ball 20 times and I bet he goes over 120 yards with a TD. Probably even hits a home run on a breakaway run. And (gasp!) the Saints might even control the clock and win the game.
They should also watch Dallas to see how using a running back helps to hide some weakness on defense. And since the Saints defense is arguably much worse than DAL, it would stand to reason that it's even more important for them to shorten games.
Unless they really love losing in high scoring nail-biters that always come down to the last 2 mins. I guess we can't discount that possibility.
These sum up the same frustration about Payton and Ingram usage over the past X years. Seriously, we can probably go back at least 3 years of posts that say this exact same thing just on this board alone. I'm still surprised and disappointed Ingram signed the extension with this team.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Yeah, but what's weird is that while Ingram could have been even better last season, his usage until the injury was much greater than it has been at just about any point this year. It's a head scratcher. As I said earlier - if any of us Ingram owners were getting the same production as last year I think we'd all be thrilled at this point. He should be a borderline RB1-2 at worst. He's been a borderline RB2-3 all year. It's so strange.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
That especially seemed to open the door. I was really high on him this pre-season. I drafted him in one league and traded for him in the other. Not losing sleep over it, because I dealt a package of Freeman/Gore/Lockett for Evans/Ingram/L.Collins (DB), which has worked out great since I was heavy at RB with DJohnson as my lead back, but it would have been nice if Ingram could be depended on as a solid RB2.
At this point I think it'd take an injury to one of the passing options like Thomas, Fleener or Cooks, or to Cadet for Ingram's value to spike at all. And then Payton will find another way to screw him. I think Ingram is just in a season-long doghouse for no apparent reason.
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Part of me wonders if Payton is trying to teach Ingram a lesson. I recall a game earlier this season where Ingram was open in the flat for what could have been a TD and instead, Brees threw a TD in the end zone to someone else. Ingram could be seen throwing a fit on that play. That moment has stuck out to me and I wouldn't be surprised if Payton is trying to teach the young man that TEAM comes first. The next game or 2 was the Kuhn game for 3 TDs.
The General
Footballguy
That was in the SD game or at least it also happened in that game. Ingram was open but Kuhn was open a second earlier and got the pass. Ingram reacted on the field. Kuhn then got a couple 1 yard carries for TD's.
Personally doubt it's related to him not getting the ball down there but who knows.0
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Ok, so same game?
I think it's related. When is the last time anyone has seen a TE rushing TD?
I think it's related. When is the last time anyone has seen a TE rushing TD?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Coaches call gadget plays. It happens. That is happened with Ingram just adds fuel to the conversation.
I won't be surprised by anything Payton does at this point. If Ingram comes out and gets 20 carries & 5 receptions next week against KC it won't shock me in the slightest. Similarly if Ingram comes out and gets 8 carries and 1 reception that won't shock me in the slightest either.
At this point I don't see why they don't just trade him to Green Bay. If they're not going to use him, they should at least get something for him. Seems silly to let a talented RB languish like this when you could get value for him.
simsarge
Footballguy
My 
This whole game is a numbers game. I think it comes down to Peyton's thought when he looks at his play sheet which is: "What play give the Saints the best chance of getting a Touchdown right here, right now.".
Through a week of film study looking at tendencies and matchups and looking at how the game has progressed up to this point (my left guard and center have not been pushing their nose tackle off the LOS at all. Opposing TEs have been getting barely a rub by the OLB before being released to the safety on 61% of first and goals. My 250lb Fullback has a better chance of getting through the B gap than my 215 pound RB has getting through the A gap. The 3 Linebackers have a 75% chance of stopping a running play because they will crash down 65% of the time. The probability of the OLB successfully covering my RB in the flat is 74%. The probability of them covering the TE on a late release is 56%.
As sensible as it is for us Ingram owners to think he's a lock for an easy short yardage TD, he thinks otherwise. He's been pretty successful so far too (much to our chagrin)
This whole game is a numbers game. I think it comes down to Peyton's thought when he looks at his play sheet which is: "What play give the Saints the best chance of getting a Touchdown right here, right now.".
Through a week of film study looking at tendencies and matchups and looking at how the game has progressed up to this point (my left guard and center have not been pushing their nose tackle off the LOS at all. Opposing TEs have been getting barely a rub by the OLB before being released to the safety on 61% of first and goals. My 250lb Fullback has a better chance of getting through the B gap than my 215 pound RB has getting through the A gap. The 3 Linebackers have a 75% chance of stopping a running play because they will crash down 65% of the time. The probability of the OLB successfully covering my RB in the flat is 74%. The probability of them covering the TE on a late release is 56%.
As sensible as it is for us Ingram owners to think he's a lock for an easy short yardage TD, he thinks otherwise. He's been pretty successful so far too (much to our chagrin)
Hu-Tang Clan
Footballguy
Sure, but that doesn't explain the part about barely getting carries between the 20's and maybe trying to control the clock with runs when you're up by 21.
need2know
Footballguy
Hu-Tang Clan
Footballguy
I know. I wonder how they pitched it to Ingram and his agent to keep him there as a FA a couple of years ago.
need2know
Footballguy
He's averaging almost the same exact amount of touches as he did last year, he's just royally screwing him near the goal line. Another thing to note- Ingram averaged 18 touches per game last year. When he got hurt, Hightower basically came in off the street and averaged 24 touches per game.
Pigskin Fanatic
Footballguy
Good point, I noticed this and had largely dismissed it. I had posted earlier in the year there must be injury concerns. Ingram must be, right or wrong, viewed as more fragile, which also explains the lack of work around the goal line. If he stays upright, the average output you guys projected plus the few games he will break the big runs is about what we should expect ROS. He won't see RB1 numbers for a season, but should be a decent floor RB2/RB3 depending on the size of your league. Any expectations above this, as I've had until last season, is probably going to be met with disappointment.
RBM
Footballguy
I'm still stunned he went back. And before he even hit the open market. Mind boggling.
Plenty of "regular" people stay in a job they know and are comfortable with, even if higher pay might be had elsewhere. A large segment of humanity is risk-averse and places a high value on familiarity and security.
Shouldn't be too surprising to find some pro athletes that feel the same way. We just get conditioned by fantasy ball, where we deal guys back and forth "on paper" and think it's no big deal because our fantasy players aren't uprooting their families, taking kids away from a good school with good friends, leaving their community, etc.
So Hightower came off the street last year after Ingram and per many, "won them championships" averaging 24 touches per game.
Why would Payton give a backup MORE touches than the starter?
The inconsistency is just a killer. We'll probably all trade him away and then in the next poor matchup Ingram will get 25 touches and 2 TDs. Madenning.
Anyone have any luck unloading him? I'd rather have a little less production but more consistency from this slot.
