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Mark Ingram (3 Viewers)

worrierking said:
Ummm, Thomas last played for the Saints in 2014.  It was Hightower who took over last year due to injury. 

I have been a fan since '88, I doubt I've missed five games in the last 28 years. 

Ingram is just not as good as you guys think he is.  He has improved as a receiver and pass blocker since the early days.  He runs very hard and hits holes well. He is good for one cut.  He has excellent balance. He is not a good goal line or short yardage back.   He has no instincts for turning a one-yard gain into a two or three-yard gain.  For a 5' 9" power back I have never seen anyone so easy for a defender to stand up.  Nobody gets stacked up and pushed back as much as he does.  There is no ability to twist, squirm or drive for the extra yard.  He is the kind of back who is extremely dependent on the quality of the offensive line.  If the line blocks for a one-yard gain, that's what he will get.  If they open a hole he can hit it and get 10 or twelve.  He would have been great on the 99 Broncos or the 93 Cowboys, but he's not that good on the Saints of the Teens.  He is expensive and the Saints have shown they can find guys like Hightower, Thomas, Ivory etc. off the scrap heap who can produce at a similar level (he is better than Hightower).  He does not have a great track record of staying healthy. The list of guys I would rather have as the feature back on the Saints is long.
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Ingram was not very good his first two seasons but I'm not going to parse stats, I'll include them because to me it sounds like you are saying he's a JAG. Since Ingram came into the league only two Saints RB's have averaged more than his 4.52 YPC. Ivory at 5.4 but he only ran for 217 yards and Sproles as 4.6 but he only ran for 466. Ingram has run for 3,574 during this time.

If you remove third down from equation, when power backs like Ingram typically see a lower YPC on third and short and pass catching backs like Sproles typically see a higher YPC we'll see that Ingram is still 4.5 and Sproles drops down to 4.2 and Khiry

Total RB carries on first and second down since Ingram arrived is: Ingram has 3,301 yards and a 4.55 YPA and the entire rest of the RB's on the team in this timeframe have combined for 3,479 yards and a 4.05 YPA. Of those carries that make up rest of team 85% of the carries

So I don't know, no one is saying he is special or Adrian Peterson but he's got a pretty lengthy track record which shows he is easily the best runner on the team since he's been on the team and a full half a yard per carry over the average of rest of backs  is fairly significant.

 
menobrown said:
Ingram was not very good his first two seasons but I'm not going to parse stats, I'll include them because to me it sounds like you are saying he's a JAG. Since Ingram came into the league only two Saints RB's have averaged more than his 4.52 YPC. Ivory at 5.4 but he only ran for 217 yards and Sproles as 4.6 but he only ran for 466. Ingram has run for 3,574 during this time.

If you remove third down from equation, when power backs like Ingram typically see a lower YPC on third and short and pass catching backs like Sproles typically see a higher YPC we'll see that Ingram is still 4.5 and Sproles drops down to 4.2 and Khiry

Total RB carries on first and second down since Ingram arrived is: Ingram has 3,301 yards and a 4.55 YPA and the entire rest of the RB's on the team in this timeframe have combined for 3,479 yards and a 4.05 YPA. Of those carries that make up rest of team 85% of the carries

So I don't know, no one is saying he is special or Adrian Peterson but he's got a pretty lengthy track record which shows he is easily the best runner on the team since he's been on the team and a full half a yard per carry over the average of rest of backs  is fairly significant.
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While not AP or LT2 special, those numbers are very, very good. 

And looking at his receiving from last year it seems like he's at least been as good as  some of the best receiving backs in the league. 

Ingram may not be a once in a generation talent, but he's sure capable of being one of the best RB in the NFL right now.

that he's achieved those numbers running behind a notoriously terrible OL on a pass-first team is especially impressive. Imagine how good he'd be in Dallas. 

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
While not AP or LT2 special, those numbers are very, very good. 

And looking at his receiving from last year it seems like he's at least been as good as  some of the best receiving backs in the league. 

Ingram may not be a once in a generation talent, but he's sure capable of being one of the best RB in the NFL right now.

that he's achieved those numbers running behind a notoriously terrible OL on a pass-first team is especially impressive. Imagine how good he'd be in Dallas. 
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Obviously that would be ideal, but just imagine how good he'd be on the same team he's on but if he was treated like most RB 1's? Latavius Murray has 12 out of the teams 15 rushing TDs, Ajayi 7 out of 12, Howard 6 out of 9, Murray 9 out of 15, Forte 7 out of 10, Gordon 10 out of 10, Blount 15 out of 16, etc. Those guys aren't world beaters, but if Ingram got a similar %, that would give him another 6-7 rushing TDs on the season right there, making him easily a top 10 FF RB. Add in a much higher % of team rushing attempts that he should have, a higher run/pass ratio that most teams have (including near the goal line), he's top 5. 

 
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humpback said:
Obviously that would be ideal, but just imagine how good he'd be on the same team he's on but if he was treated like most RB 1's? Latavius Murray has 12 out of the teams 15 rushing TDs, Ajayi 7 out of 12, Howard 6 out of 9, Murray 9 out of 15, Forte 7 out of 10, Gordon 10 out of 10, Blount 15 out of 16, etc. Those guys aren't world beaters, but if Ingram got a similar %, that would give him another 6-7 rushing TDs on the season right there, making him easily a top 10 FF RB. Add in a much higher % of team rushing attempts that he should have, a higher run/pass ratio that most teams have (including near the goal line), he's top 5. 
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Yep - we've come full circle, as that's exactly what I'd said a few posts back. Easily a top 5 RB for fantasy (and real life) with a feature back workload. 

 
:lmao:

Top 5 back?  Get real.  He's not on the level of Duece Mccallister.  In fact, NO has signed undrafted backs who've been better than Ingram.  As a Saints fan, I'd have no problem with them trading him. 

 
SproutDaddy said:
:lmao:

Top 5 back?  Get real.  He's not on the level of Duece Mccallister.  In fact, NO has signed undrafted backs who've been better than Ingram.  As a Saints fan, I'd have no problem with them trading him. 
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They are going to trade Cooks as well I bet.........Ingram doesn't really fit what they do with their backs but when Michael Thomas starts getting #1 CB treatment because Cooks is gone that offense is going to tank. It's going to be fun to watch lol.

 
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Hot Sauce Guy said:
Yep - we've come full circle, as that's exactly what I'd said a few posts back. Easily a top 5 RB for fantasy (and real life) with a feature back workload. 
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Top 5? I don't see that. Could he be an RB1 in the right system? Sure. But not someone I would consider a Top 5 back.

 
Milkman said:
They are going to trade Cooks as well I bet.........Ingram doesn't really fit what they do with their backs but when Michael Thomas starts getting #1 CB treatment because Cooks is gone that offense is going to tank. It's going to be fun to watch lol.
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not sure why you think Cooks is gone.  He's on his rookie contract and is not as replaceable as Ingram.  Thomas is a rookie and looks to be a legit pick.  A great replacement for Colston.  Maybe you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.

 
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Hot Sauce Guy said:
PPR? Sure he would be. 
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I'd rather Johnson, Bell, Elliott, Murray, Freeman, Gordon, McCoy, and maybe even Howard over Ingram. And I'm an Ingram guy, but he's not a top 5 RB in fantasy or real life.

 
MattFancy said:
I'd rather Johnson, Bell, Elliott, Murray, Freeman, Gordon, McCoy, and maybe even Howard over Ingram. And I'm an Ingram guy, but he's not a top 5 RB in fantasy or real life.
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Well we're saying "with a  feature back workload@

 In that hypothetical situation,  I agree with the top three, but Freeman & Murray both share carries, and Gordon hasn't been all that good - volume production but YPC was weak much of the year. 

Its irrelevant since Ingram won't get the touches so long as Payton is there.

 
This whole situation has pissed me off all year, and it finally bit me in the ### last week in the semi-finals.  I benched both Ingram and Hightower against Arizona without much of a second thought (for Kenneth Farrow).  Then NO actually shows up for a game, and both of these guys end up producing after not doing much of anything for 3 weeks.

Lost by 3.  Farrow scored 3; Ingram 10, Hightower 18.  Ugh... I hate this game sometimes.

 
The Claymaker said:
I think Ingram has a great game coming up, I think Payton will feed him including the goal-line carries. I honestly believe coaches don't think about that stuff during a game, they don't care about #'s. Ingram was visible pissed off on the sidelines and even before that he was yelling out onto the field after he got the first and goal.  Just watching it, Payton didn't seem to snap back but more seemed confused on why Ingram was pitching a fit. He went over to him and like grabbed his should pad or something and said a few words. I think it was cleared up, but I do think Payton will feed him this week. Just mho 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqzVo6aqYZo
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So glad I listened to myself. 

 
Rumors that AP is all but signed. There just has to be something going on between Ingram and Payton.

 
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Yeah, Ingram > AP at this stage in their careers.  Neither can likely stay healthy on their own and AP can't operate out of the shotgun.

 
NFL.com's Ian Rapoport reports the Saints are "closing in" on a deal with free agent Adrian Peterson.

Per Rapsheet, the deal would pay Peterson $3 million "plus." It's a very strange fit on paper, but coach Sean Payton has had friction with Mark Ingram. Peterson and Ingram are redundant talents, though Ingram has become much more of a pass catcher in recent years. Peterson is a zero in the passing game, but a better goal-line finisher than Ingram. The situation would make for fantasy headaches, and an always-tedious backfield even harder to figure.
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Just watched NFL network- said AP can make just under $4 mil with incentives (still not a done deal), something the Saints were VERY cognizant off, they didn't want to disrespect Ingram by paying him more. HFS.

 
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Ingram avoids contact too much for a power runner. His lack of consistent aggression on runs is annoying when you're watching him since his doesn't have the quickness to dance but displays his power, at times. 

I don't understand why this doesn't make sense to people. A under performing Ingram, an aging Brees (slash closing contender window) so they are bringing in an old stud RB in the hopes of 1 last run. If Peterson makes around 3 million per year that puts in as about the 24th highest paid RB. Ingram is at 4mil per year.

Assuming he's healthy (that's a giant assumption though) then AP can at least be the physical runner they wanted from Ingram. And they have a pair of 1sts to try and help the D. 

 
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Borden said:
Ingram avoids contact too much for a power runner. His lack of consistent aggression on runs is annoying when you're watching him since his doesn't have the quickness to dance but displays his power, at times. 

I don't understand why this doesn't make sense to people. A under performing Ingram, an aging Brees (slash closing contender window) is bringing in an old stud RB in the hopes of 1 last run. If Peterson makes around 3 million per year that puts in as about the 24th highest paid RB. Ingram is at 4mil per year.

Assuming he's healthy (that's a giant assumption though) then AP can at least be the physical runner they wanted from Ingram. And they have a pair of 1sts to try and help the D. 
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:lmao:

 
Borden said:
Ingram avoids contact too much for a power runner. His lack of consistent aggression on runs is annoying when you're watching him since his doesn't have the quickness to dance but displays his power, at times. 

I don't understand why this doesn't make sense to people. A under performing Ingram, an aging Brees (slash closing contender window) so they are bringing in an old stud RB in the hopes of 1 last run. If Peterson makes around 3 million per year that puts in as about the 24th highest paid RB. Ingram is at 4mil per year.

Assuming he's healthy (that's a giant assumption though) then AP can at least be the physical runner they wanted from Ingram. And they have a pair of 1sts to try and help the D. 
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I can speak as to why it doesn't make sense to me:

1. The Saints will be paying close to $8MM on two similar backs, when Ingram is more than good enough, and they could draft a guy like Perrine for depth

2. The Saints ceiling is about 8 wins, imo (I guess they have to think otherwise) - their defense is still awful

3. Peterson should want to play for a contender at this point (see 2)

 
Dr. Octopus said:
I can speak as to why it doesn't make sense to me:

1. The Saints will be paying close to $8MM on two similar backs, when Ingram is more than good enough, and they could draft a guy like Perrine for depth

2. The Saints ceiling is about 8 wins, imo (I guess they have to think otherwise) - their defense is still awful

3. Peterson should want to play for a contender at this point (see 2)
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How are Peterson and Ingram similar exactly? 

Borden said:
Ingram avoids contact too much for a power runner. His lack of consistent aggression on runs is annoying when you're watching him since his doesn't have the quickness to dance but displays his power, at times. 

I don't understand why this doesn't make sense to people. A under performing Ingram, an aging Brees (slash closing contender window) so they are bringing in an old stud RB in the hopes of 1 last run. If Peterson makes around 3 million per year that puts in as about the 24th highest paid RB. Ingram is at 4mil per year.

Assuming he's healthy (that's a giant assumption though) then AP can at least be the physical runner they wanted from Ingram. And they have a pair of 1sts to try and help the D. 
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Ingram isn't an underperforming player. There aren't many RBs that are as good between the tackles and catching the ball. 

 
humpback said:
It was better than yours. Ingram had a 5.1 ypc last season and you called him under performing- what more needs to be said?
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I agree with you.  Ingram had his best season last year and someone calls it under performing?   Seems like an oxymoron.

Ingram's rushing TDs were not impressive but they were not down from the previous year and he ran for over 1,000 yards.  He made up for the lack of rushing TDs with 4 receiving TDs which gave him a career best 10 total TDs.  So he finished the year with 1,362 total yards and 10 TDs or as some others seem to believe, under performing.

 
Ilov80s said:
How are Peterson and Ingram similar exactly? 
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They have a similar builds (5'10/215 for Ingram 6'1/220 for Peterson) and style. Both run with above average power for their size, with good lateral agility/change of direction. Peterson was (may still be) faster than Ingram, but Ingram has decent speed.

 
Borden said:
Ingram avoids contact too much for a power runner. His lack of consistent aggression on runs is annoying when you're watching him since his doesn't have the quickness to dance but displays his power, at times. 

I don't understand why this doesn't make sense to people. A under performing Ingram, an aging Brees (slash closing contender window) so they are bringing in an old stud RB in the hopes of 1 last run. If Peterson makes around 3 million per year that puts in as about the 24th highest paid RB. Ingram is at 4mil per year.

Assuming he's healthy (that's a giant assumption though) then AP can at least be the physical runner they wanted from Ingram. And they have a pair of 1sts to try and help the D. 
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I think Ingram has ran physical and angry for years now.

Ingram ran for 5.1 YPC last season and has not been under 4.3 since 2012. He just ran for over 1,000 yards on only 46% of the offensive snaps and now it looks like the plan might be to use him less so no it does not make sense to me and that's not even getting into the fact Ingram is more versatile as a true three down back.

The only thing about this that makes any sense to me is the Saints just think Peterson at $3M is such a bargain he's worth obtaining and they can work out the usage/details later. But honestly if this team wanted to pay an old RB $3m they should have signed Woodhead, he'd have made more sense.

 
Hawkeye21 said:
I agree with you.  Ingram had his best season last year and someone calls it under performing?   Seems like an oxymoron.

Ingram's rushing TDs were not impressive but they were not down from the previous year and he ran for over 1,000 yards.  He made up for the lack of rushing TDs with 4 receiving TDs which gave him a career best 10 total TDs.  So he finished the year with 1,362 total yards and 10 TDs or as some others seem to believe, under performing.
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The reason he didn't score more TDs is because Payton is a #### and gave a lot of those carries to Hightower and Kuhn- heck, even the TE had a 2 yd. rushing TD last year.

 
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