Maybe San Diego wasn't so stupid (1 Viewer)

[ImTheScientist]

When judging a trade from previous years ask yourself this: If these teams knew what we know today would they still make the deal? If you think the Falcons would still make the Vick deal you're fooling yourself.

Advantage Chargers...and that edge is only going to widen over the next few seasons.

I dont completely disagree, though I dont think it is as night and day as this post makes it out to be. Vick has been the face of the NFL for about the past 5 seasons. He has made lots of folks lots of money. LT2 will never be the money make Vick is. I think you would be surprised at the number of people who would take Vick and some dead dogs over LT2.

 

[Banger]

Vick has been the face of the NFL for about the past 5 seasons. He has made lots of folks lots of money. LT2 will never be the money make Vick is. I think you would be surprised at the number of people who would take Vick and some dead dogs over LT2.

I disagree with nearly everything you wrote. When you say make money are you talking about LT on a personal level, the team or what? It took a little while for the NFL/fans to catch onto LT since he was on a crappy SD team for years but those days are gone. He's gonna be HUGE from here on out as he continues to rewrite the record books while Vick will end up being dropped from most of his contracts. You couldn't have guys going in more opposite directions.

 

[kensat30]

Even if LT jerseys outsold Vick jerseys this year, I think Vick would still win. The combined sales of his "Mexico" and "Ookie" jersey lines would help to push him over the top.

 

[OCC]

On the financial end of things, if Vick is such a sound business investment, why were the Falcons ranked 31st out of 32 teams in terms of profitability during Vick's heyday in 2004? Link

Why in 2006, are the Falcons ranked 31st out of 32 in terms of most valuable franchises? Link Although to be fair, the Chargers are only 1 notch above. However, they make 4x as much in operating income every year.

How many Ron Mexico jersey's need to be sold to pay Vick's $130M contract, the most expensive in the NFL?

Uh, hello McFly, May 1st 2004 would be BEFORE Vick's 2004 season. So he didn't magically effect the past when he started in 2004. What a bum.And it's a little more complex then "Hey look LT makes the Chargers 4x the operating income! Vick doesn't make the Falcons jack!".

I specifically chose 2004 because it was before he signed his $130M contract (signed in December of that same year) when the cost of owning him ballooned. If Vick was such a financial boon to the Falcons, why were they one of the poorest (and lowest valued) franchises in football (and still are?) You can't have it both ways, he may make a lot of money for the Falcons, but he costs a #$%load too.It gets worse if he is suspended for the year, because the team is still on the hook for his 2007 salary (goes to charity.)

You chose 2004 because it was "Vick's heyday". Yet Vick wasn't even the starter when the 2004 Forbes study was released. So no, May 2004 was not Vick's heyday, he wasn't even the full time starter at that point. And like I said, franchise valuation is fairly complicated. Why are the Texans in the top 10? Because of Andre Johnson? Really it has nothing to do with the players.

Your whole argument is more or less nonsense. Pointing out the Falcon franchise isn't worth a lot, and blaming it on Vick, is more or less ######ed. In that case Carr is about to make the panthers a top 10 franchise! Look what he did for the Texans!

 

[Gr00vus]

And like I said, franchise valuation is fairly complicated. Why are the Texans in the top 10? Because of Andre Johnson? Really it has nothing to do with the players.

So then you agree the idea that Vick is still the superior property because he "is more valuable to his franchise" has no support, at least in financial terms.

 

[Gr00vus]

.02the amount of money Vick has made for Blank and the city of Atl compared to how much money LT2 has made for SD and its regime.

I'd like to see your data for this, with links please.

fixed for now, though id be willing to bet I could find the data to back it up. Unfortunately it would take time and i dont think winning this argument is worth it

Since that seems to be the crux of your support for Vick over Tomlinson, I'd say a lack of evidence indicates you have no idea really if what you're saying is in fact true - you have a hunch. In which case I can't acknowledge your position as correct.

 

[The Man with the Plan]

The Chargers are one of the top teams in the NFL? On paper maybe. That's all they've been so far.

Name three or more teams that have won more games in the past three years than the Chargers have.

The San Diego Chargers have won 35 regular seasons games in the past 3 seasons. Only the Patriots (36) and the Colts (38) have won more in that time span. However...The San Diego Chargers have won 0 post season games in the past 3 seasons. Only the Jets (1), Rams (1), Vikings (1), Broncos (1), Redskins (1), Saints (1), Falcons (1) Panthers (2), Bears (2), Seahawks (3), Eagles (3), Steelers (5), Colts (5), and Patriots (6) have won more playoff games in that time span. That's nearly half the league mentioned. All able to accomplish something that the Chargers couldn't. Winning in the playoffs.

It's all good though. Maybe the Chargers are content being paper champions.

 

[Gr00vus]

It's all good though. Maybe the Chargers are content being paper champions.

You keep saying this. Please enumerate all the championships the Falcons have won since Vick has been there.

 

[trader jake]

When judging a trade from previous years ask yourself this: If these teams knew what we know today would they still make the deal? If you think the Falcons would still make the Vick deal you're fooling yourself.

Advantage Chargers...and that edge is only going to widen over the next few seasons.

I dont completely disagree, though I dont think it is as night and day as this post makes it out to be. Vick has been the face of the NFL for about the past 5 seasons. He has made lots of folks lots of money. LT2 will never be the money make Vick is. I think you would be surprised at the number of people who would take Vick and some dead dogs over LT2.

I thought the decision was obvious...especially now. I guess it will take another three years for those people to come around.

 

[The Man with the Plan]

It's all good though. Maybe the Chargers are content being paper champions.

You keep saying this. Please enumerate all the championships the Falcons have won since Vick has been there.

They've won the same amount of championships as the Chargers since LT has been there. At the same time Vick took the Falcons to Lambeau and beat the Packers and he also got the Falcons to the NFC title game. What have the Chargers done? Lose at home in the playoffs to teams that they were better than "on paper".Truthfully this is probably going to be the biggest season in the Chargers franchise history. Chokingheimer's gone so they can't use that excuse anymore. I don't want to hear about Norv Turner and any of that. It's time for the Chargers to put up or shut up.

 

[Gr00vus]

At the same time Vick took the Falcons to Lambeau and beat the Packers and he also got the Falcons to the NFC title game. What have the Chargers done? Lose at home in the playoffs to teams that they were better than "on paper".

Interesting logic. By your reasoning LaDainian is also not as good as: David Terrell, Koren Robinson, Dan Morgan, Steve Hutchinson, Casey Hampton, Deuce McCallister, Willie Middlebrooks, Freddie Mitchell, Todd Heap and about a billion other guys (these were all from round 1 2001) because their teams have more playoff wins than the Chargers since the Chargers drafted LaDainian.This line of reasoning is so off track it's humorous.

 

[Bri]

this thread makes my head hurt yet it's fascinating over 3 years

 

[The Man with the Plan]

At the same time Vick took the Falcons to Lambeau and beat the Packers and he also got the Falcons to the NFC title game. What have the Chargers done? Lose at home in the playoffs to teams that they were better than "on paper".

Interesting logic. By your reasoning LaDainian is also not as good as: David Terrell, Koren Robinson, Dan Morgan, Steve Hutchinson, Casey Hampton, Deuce McCallister, Willie Middlebrooks, Freddie Mitchell, Todd Heap and about a billion other guys (these were all from round 1 2001) because their teams have more playoff wins than the Chargers since the Chargers drafted LaDainian.

Nope. LT is a great player. The Chargers on the other hand aren't as great of a team and organization that people make them out to be. And that the trade between the Falcons and Chargers aren't nearly as lopsided as some have claimed.

 

[To commish is my wish]

this thread makes my head hurt yet it's fascinating over 3 years

I'm fairly certain that, were he able to go back in time armed with the knowledge of today, the Falcons owner would sit tight at #5 and draft LT. Doesn't that pretty much end this argument?Even if proven to exist, any excess of Vick-related revenues over LT-related revenues over the past few years will surely see a reversal in the coming years if Vick is found guilty of any of this.

 

[Gr00vus]

Nope. Just that the Chargers aren't as great of a team and organization that people make them out to be.

I don't know that anyone's been comparing the Charger organization to the Steelers and Cowboys over the long haul here - just that they made one good decision back in 2001.

And that the trade between the Falcons and Chargers aren't nearly as lopsided as some have claimed.

I don't see lopsided - just that the Chargers seem to have gotten the better end of the deal. And it looks like if anything it's going to keep going that way given current events.

 

[JAA]

When judging a trade from previous years ask yourself this: If these teams knew what we know today would they still make the deal? If you think the Falcons would still make the Vick deal you're fooling yourself.

Advantage Chargers...and that edge is only going to widen over the next few seasons.

I dont completely disagree, though I dont think it is as night and day as this post makes it out to be. Vick has been the face of the NFL for about the past 5 seasons. He has made lots of folks lots of money. LT2 will never be the money make Vick is. I think you would be surprised at the number of people who would take Vick and some dead dogs over LT2.

I thought the decision was obvious...especially now. I guess it will take another three years for those people to come around.

see Leonard Little. Know anyone else who has killed people and still plays in the NFL?Let me repeat ... Leonard Little killed someone while driving drunk. Not some dogs, not some battered girlfriend, he KILLED someone.

 

[JAA]

.02the amount of money Vick has made for Blank and the city of Atl compared to how much money LT2 has made for SD and its regime.

I'd like to see your data for this, with links please.

fixed for now, though id be willing to bet I could find the data to back it up. Unfortunately it would take time and i dont think winning this argument is worth it

Since that seems to be the crux of your support for Vick over Tomlinson, I'd say a lack of evidence indicates you have no idea really if what you're saying is in fact true - you have a hunch. In which case I can't acknowledge your position as correct.

and your point is?

 

[Tom Servo]

I think the central question is this: Would the Falcons take LT or Vick if they had it to do over again. Given present circumstances, IMO they'd do it differently.

Based on JAA's and The Man with the Plan's responses, there's some good stuff being smoked out there.

 

[JAA]

I think the central question is this: Would the Falcons take LT or Vick if they had it to do over again. Given present circumstances, IMO they'd do it differently.Based on JAA's and The Man with the Plan's responses, there's some good stuff being smoked out there.

You are short-sighted

 

[cobalt_27]

The Chargers are one of the top teams in the NFL? On paper maybe. That's all they've been so far.

Name three or more teams that have won more games in the past three years than the Chargers have.

The San Diego Chargers have won 35 regular seasons games in the past 3 seasons. Only the Patriots (36) and the Colts (38) have won more in that time span. However...The San Diego Chargers have won 0 post season games in the past 3 seasons. Only the Jets (1), Rams (1), Vikings (1), Broncos (1), Redskins (1), Saints (1), Falcons (1) Panthers (2), Bears (2), Seahawks (3), Eagles (3), Steelers (5), Colts (5), and Patriots (6) have won more playoff games in that time span. That's nearly half the league mentioned. All able to accomplish something that the Chargers couldn't. Winning in the playoffs.

It's all good though. Maybe the Chargers are content being paper champions.

WTF?

 

[Despyzer]

I think the central question is this: Would the Falcons take LT or Vick if they had it to do over again. Given present circumstances, IMO they'd do it differently.Based on JAA's and The Man with the Plan's responses, there's some good stuff being smoked out there.

You are short-sighted

You are a

 

[JAA]

I think the central question is this: Would the Falcons take LT or Vick if they had it to do over again. Given present circumstances, IMO they'd do it differently.Based on JAA's and The Man with the Plan's responses, there's some good stuff being smoked out there.

You are short-sighted

You are a

What does this thread have to do with the Philadelphia Eagles or the West Virginia University Mountaineers?

 

[Despyzer]

I think the central question is this: Would the Falcons take LT or Vick if they had it to do over again. Given present circumstances, IMO they'd do it differently.Based on JAA's and The Man with the Plan's responses, there's some good stuff being smoked out there.

You are short-sighted

You are a

What does this thread have to do with the Philadelphia Eagles or the West Virginia University Mountaineers?

or the big red VT on your avatar?

 

[Gr00vus]

.02the amount of money Vick has made for Blank and the city of Atl compared to how much money LT2 has made for SD and its regime.

I'd like to see your data for this, with links please.

fixed for now, though id be willing to bet I could find the data to back it up. Unfortunately it would take time and i dont think winning this argument is worth it

Since that seems to be the crux of your support for Vick over Tomlinson, I'd say a lack of evidence indicates you have no idea really if what you're saying is in fact true - you have a hunch. In which case I can't acknowledge your position as correct.

and your point is?

That you have no evidence to back up one of your biggest reasons why Vick is still the better choice than LaDainian. Therefore your stance that Vick is indeed still the better choice is denuded of reason, and thus suspect.

 

[Buckna]

On the financial end of things, if Vick is such a sound business investment, why were the Falcons ranked 31st out of 32 teams in terms of profitability during Vick's heyday in 2004? Link

Why in 2006, are the Falcons ranked 31st out of 32 in terms of most valuable franchises? Link Although to be fair, the Chargers are only 1 notch above. However, they make 4x as much in operating income every year.

How many Ron Mexico jersey's need to be sold to pay Vick's $130M contract, the most expensive in the NFL?

Uh, hello McFly, May 1st 2004 would be BEFORE Vick's 2004 season. So he didn't magically effect the past when he started in 2004. What a bum.And it's a little more complex then "Hey look LT makes the Chargers 4x the operating income! Vick doesn't make the Falcons jack!".

I specifically chose 2004 because it was before he signed his $130M contract (signed in December of that same year) when the cost of owning him ballooned. If Vick was such a financial boon to the Falcons, why were they one of the poorest (and lowest valued) franchises in football (and still are?) You can't have it both ways, he may make a lot of money for the Falcons, but he costs a #$%load too.It gets worse if he is suspended for the year, because the team is still on the hook for his 2007 salary (goes to charity.)

You chose 2004 because it was "Vick's heyday". Yet Vick wasn't even the starter when the 2004 Forbes study was released. So no, May 2004 was not Vick's heyday, he wasn't even the full time starter at that point. And like I said, franchise valuation is fairly complicated. Why are the Texans in the top 10? Because of Andre Johnson? Really it has nothing to do with the players.

Your whole argument is more or less nonsense. Pointing out the Falcon franchise isn't worth a lot, and blaming it on Vick, is more or less ######ed. In that case Carr is about to make the panthers a top 10 franchise! Look what he did for the Texans!

Umm... Vick was drafted in 2001. Vick's first season as the starter was 2002. One of the biggest pro-Vick arguments is him winning a playoff game at Lambeau field. That was the 2002 post-season. The period after that's when his hype was greatest and when he became the NFL poster boy and marketing force that you and JAA keep arguing makes him such a huge financial contributor to the Falcons.

 

[JAA]

I think the central question is this: Would the Falcons take LT or Vick if they had it to do over again. Given present circumstances, IMO they'd do it differently.Based on JAA's and The Man with the Plan's responses, there's some good stuff being smoked out there.

You are short-sighted

You are a

What does this thread have to do with the Philadelphia Eagles or the West Virginia University Mountaineers?

or the big red VT on your avatar?

gesture of respect. I despise the Hokies, their coach, his philosophy, etc. However, I truly feel bad for the students and their losses.

 

[JAA]

.02the amount of money Vick has made for Blank and the city of Atl compared to how much money LT2 has made for SD and its regime.

I'd like to see your data for this, with links please.

fixed for now, though id be willing to bet I could find the data to back it up. Unfortunately it would take time and i dont think winning this argument is worth it

Since that seems to be the crux of your support for Vick over Tomlinson, I'd say a lack of evidence indicates you have no idea really if what you're saying is in fact true - you have a hunch. In which case I can't acknowledge your position as correct.

and your point is?

That you have no evidence to back up one of your biggest reasons why Vick is still the better choice than LaDainian. Therefore your stance that Vick is indeed still the better choice is denuded of reason, and thus suspect.

So the only way I can provide an educated and resonable guess is to back up each statement with internet based facts?

 

[JAA]

On the financial end of things, if Vick is such a sound business investment, why were the Falcons ranked 31st out of 32 teams in terms of profitability during Vick's heyday in 2004? Link

Why in 2006, are the Falcons ranked 31st out of 32 in terms of most valuable franchises? Link Although to be fair, the Chargers are only 1 notch above. However, they make 4x as much in operating income every year.

How many Ron Mexico jersey's need to be sold to pay Vick's $130M contract, the most expensive in the NFL?

Uh, hello McFly, May 1st 2004 would be BEFORE Vick's 2004 season. So he didn't magically effect the past when he started in 2004. What a bum.And it's a little more complex then "Hey look LT makes the Chargers 4x the operating income! Vick doesn't make the Falcons jack!".

I specifically chose 2004 because it was before he signed his $130M contract (signed in December of that same year) when the cost of owning him ballooned. If Vick was such a financial boon to the Falcons, why were they one of the poorest (and lowest valued) franchises in football (and still are?) You can't have it both ways, he may make a lot of money for the Falcons, but he costs a #$%load too.It gets worse if he is suspended for the year, because the team is still on the hook for his 2007 salary (goes to charity.)

You chose 2004 because it was "Vick's heyday". Yet Vick wasn't even the starter when the 2004 Forbes study was released. So no, May 2004 was not Vick's heyday, he wasn't even the full time starter at that point. And like I said, franchise valuation is fairly complicated. Why are the Texans in the top 10? Because of Andre Johnson? Really it has nothing to do with the players.

Your whole argument is more or less nonsense. Pointing out the Falcon franchise isn't worth a lot, and blaming it on Vick, is more or less ######ed. In that case Carr is about to make the panthers a top 10 franchise! Look what he did for the Texans!

Umm... Vick was drafted in 2001. Vick's first season as the starter was 2002. One of the biggest pro-Vick arguments is him winning a playoff game at Lambeau field. That was the 2002 post-season. The period after that's when his hype was greatest and when he became the NFL poster boy and marketing force that you and JAA keep arguing makes him such a huge financial contributor to the Falcons.

How about this way.Which team would be more valuable: Atl with LT2 or Atl with Mike Vick

 

[Gr00vus]

So the only way I can provide an educated and resonable guess is to back up each statement with internet based facts?

Yeah, if asking you to back up your argument with facts is crazy, well call me crazy. Having no supporting data eliminates "educated" and "reasonable and leaves you only with "guess." If an opinion is not supported by facts I'm going to pretty much disregard it.

 

[JAA]

So the only way I can provide an educated and resonable guess is to back up each statement with internet based facts?

Yeah, if asking you to back up your argument with facts is crazy, well call me crazy. If an opinion is not supported by facts I'm going to pretty much disregard it.

why did you cross out the crux of my arguement?

 

[Gr00vus]

So the only way I can provide an educated and resonable guess is to back up each statement with internet based facts?

Yeah, if asking you to back up your argument with facts is crazy, well call me crazy. If an opinion is not supported by facts I'm going to pretty much disregard it.

why did you cross out the crux of my arguement?

Because I'll take any publicly verifiable source, doesn't have to be internet though I do recognize that I asked for links. I figured that would be the easiest way, but if you've got some other evidence (other than your conjecture) feel free to post it.

 

[Tau837]

On the financial end of things, if Vick is such a sound business investment, why were the Falcons ranked 31st out of 32 teams in terms of profitability during Vick's heyday in 2004? Link

Why in 2006, are the Falcons ranked 31st out of 32 in terms of most valuable franchises? Link Although to be fair, the Chargers are only 1 notch above. However, they make 4x as much in operating income every year.

How many Ron Mexico jersey's need to be sold to pay Vick's $130M contract, the most expensive in the NFL?

Uh, hello McFly, May 1st 2004 would be BEFORE Vick's 2004 season. So he didn't magically effect the past when he started in 2004. What a bum.And it's a little more complex then "Hey look LT makes the Chargers 4x the operating income! Vick doesn't make the Falcons jack!".

I specifically chose 2004 because it was before he signed his $130M contract (signed in December of that same year) when the cost of owning him ballooned. If Vick was such a financial boon to the Falcons, why were they one of the poorest (and lowest valued) franchises in football (and still are?) You can't have it both ways, he may make a lot of money for the Falcons, but he costs a #$%load too.It gets worse if he is suspended for the year, because the team is still on the hook for his 2007 salary (goes to charity.)

You chose 2004 because it was "Vick's heyday". Yet Vick wasn't even the starter when the 2004 Forbes study was released. So no, May 2004 was not Vick's heyday, he wasn't even the full time starter at that point. And like I said, franchise valuation is fairly complicated. Why are the Texans in the top 10? Because of Andre Johnson? Really it has nothing to do with the players.

Your whole argument is more or less nonsense. Pointing out the Falcon franchise isn't worth a lot, and blaming it on Vick, is more or less ######ed. In that case Carr is about to make the panthers a top 10 franchise! Look what he did for the Texans!

Umm... Vick was drafted in 2001. Vick's first season as the starter was 2002. One of the biggest pro-Vick arguments is him winning a playoff game at Lambeau field. That was the 2002 post-season. The period after that's when his hype was greatest and when he became the NFL poster boy and marketing force that you and JAA keep arguing makes him such a huge financial contributor to the Falcons.

How about this way.Which team would be more valuable: Atl with LT2 or Atl with Mike Vick

Today? Atl with LT2

 

[Despyzer]

How about this way.Which team would be more valuable: Atl with LT2 or Atl with Mike Vick

Today? Atl with LT2

Even if you throw out the fact that Vick might lose time/be suspended/etc., if Atlanta had stayed at #5 they could have kept those two draft picks and Tim Dwight. They also could have spent free agent money on someone other than Warrick Dunn and wouldn't have had to waste a 1st round pick on T.J. Duckett the following year. Meanwhile, if the Chargers had drafted Vick, they probably wouldn't have drafted Brees (who led them to a couple very good years) or Rivers (who is already a better QB than Vick).This is an easy choice.

 

[Buckna]

How about this way.Which team would be more valuable: Atl with LT2 or Atl with Mike Vick

Today? Atl with LT2

Even if you throw out the fact that Vick might lose time/be suspended/etc., if Atlanta had stayed at #5 they could have kept those two draft picks and Tim Dwight. They also could have spent free agent money on someone other than Warrick Dunn and wouldn't have had to waste a 1st round pick on T.J. Duckett the following year. Meanwhile, if the Chargers had drafted Vick, they probably wouldn't have drafted Brees (who led them to a couple very good years) or Rivers (who is already a better QB than Vick).This is an easy choice.

We could make it hard by trying to argue who would Atlanta and San Diego take with their other picks (likely chery picking names), what they would have done for a QB vs RB, how they and San Diego would have been affected by the various scenario's.In my mind, it's simple. Give me the future hall of famer at his position (plus extra draft picks!) vs the average player at his position any day.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

"After ranking third in the NFL in merchandise sales a year ago, the Chargers currently lead the league in sales of team apparel this year." (link)

 

[greyone]

"After ranking third in the NFL in merchandise sales a year ago, the Chargers currently lead the league in sales of team apparel this year." (link)

As of today?If so here are the reasons:

1. New design...kinda like Kobe switching 8 to 24 and being #1 in NBA jersey sales after falling off in recent years. Difference being Chargers are marketing sweaters, hats, tshirts, blankets, flags, etc..., on top of jerseys.

2. LT

3. Gates

4. Rivers

5. Merriman

6. You can make an arguement for Castillo, their crappy db's, past players.

7. throwbacks, authentic, replicas.

Plenty of choices for any fan and more so any team.