Megachurches and FFA Attendance (1 Viewer)

[shader]

I doubt it. Mega-churches are generally exploding in popularity. I don't know what accounting factors cause you to think they you are losing money on it...but I would argue that all the side benefits are the reason churches are exploding in popularity. And I'd bet the finances of your church are doing just fine.

Provoking question: Why are mega-churches seeing large increases? Did their pastors suddenly come up with teachings that are far and above that of other churches?

From my POV as an ex-Catholic non-church-goer with a number of family and friends attending megachurches now, it seems to me like one of the main sticking points is the inclusiveness. Perhaps you could call it non-denominational-ness.

You always seem to attack others in these threads under the guise that your church and your understanding of the Bible are correct and that others are incorrect - and that to me is a great example of what many people AREN'T looking for. I think a lot of people don't want to be told what is right and wrong but still want a certain matter of spiritual guidance.

I apologize for coming across that way. I think most non-believers laugh when they see mega-churches, and that's the point I was trying to make. People are joining for the "fun", imo, and not because of the particular teachings of the pastor.

But I do agree that the "non-denominational" thing is big too. And yes, most people don't want to be told what is right and wrong either. So we are in agreement there as well.

 

[shader]

Ok, what about kind and loving god vs vengeful angry God? The Bible is anything but easy to understand and IMO it wasn't meant to be, but I was raised Episcopalian and that is what sets that sect apart from other Protestant sects. I was taught all throughout church, up to confirmation, that the Bible is more a riddle than an answer, something to spur contemplation of the questions for which there are no clear answers.

Generally people are more comforted by answers rather than questions. So saying the Bible is easy to understand and provides a clear path to follow likely resonates with a lot more people than the belief that the bible is incredibly confusing and requires a lot of hard work and reflection to understand.

Agreed. The latter reminds me of the priests in the middle ages that didn't allow the common people to have bibles because it was too difficult to understand.

 

[shader]

First, I'm enjoying this discussion very much.

I'm agnostic and my boss is an evangelical Presbyterian. I know that he considers the bible as the absoulte word of God, and that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their savior is doomed to hell. When I asked him about people in other countries/cultures who've never been exposed to the bible, what happens to them. His answer to me was that with the evangelical work of Christians, everyone will be exposed at some point in time. I find that answer extremely unsatisfying. Is this a common view (from your experience)?

It's very difficult to reconcile hell with a loving God. People have been trying to rationalize and get around it for hundreds of years. Personally, I believe the problem is that there is no way to reconcile the two.

I see only a few possibilities:

God dooms people who have never heard of the bible to hell (and other people who just don't believe in God), an act that seems unloving by many people

God is loving and we don't really know who is going to hell and who isn't, but if we knew, we'd be satisfied

There is no hell (my belief)

There is no God

 

[Jayrok]

We should have pastors who are well trained in theology, don't you think?

I think it is important.

 

[Jayrok]

if you are looking and read it without trying to prove your pre-decided ideas it is pretty clear.

I don't agree with this.

 

[Jayrok]

This is a weird thread.

I agree with this.

 

[James Daulton]

First, I'm enjoying this discussion very much.

I'm agnostic and my boss is an evangelical Presbyterian. I know that he considers the bible as the absoulte word of God, and that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their savior is doomed to hell. When I asked him about people in other countries/cultures who've never been exposed to the bible, what happens to them. His answer to me was that with the evangelical work of Christians, everyone will be exposed at some point in time. I find that answer extremely unsatisfying. Is this a common view (from your experience)?

That is not necessarily a common view. A more common view is based off of Romans 1:18-25. This indicates that even without hearing the full story of the Gospel, God has made himself known and people chose to reject Him. I am not sure how that works.That is up to God. I just know what I am suppose to share with the people I can reach. I do however think that it is the churches job to reach every people group.

Thanks for the response.

 

[Jayrok]

The early church leaders spent three years studying under Jesus. I think it's fair to say the disciples went to the best seminary ever.

Yes but they never really seemed to "get it". When Jesus calls you a dullard you know you aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

[Steve Tasker]

I doubt it. Mega-churches are generally exploding in popularity. I don't know what accounting factors cause you to think they you are losing money on it...but I would argue that all the side benefits are the reason churches are exploding in popularity. And I'd bet the finances of your church are doing just fine.

Provoking question: Why are mega-churches seeing large increases? Did their pastors suddenly come up with teachings that are far and above that of other churches?

From my POV as an ex-Catholic non-church-goer with a number of family and friends attending megachurches now, it seems to me like one of the main sticking points is the inclusiveness. Perhaps you could call it non-denominational-ness.

You always seem to attack others in these threads under the guise that your church and your understanding of the Bible are correct and that others are incorrect - and that to me is a great example of what many people AREN'T looking for. I think a lot of people don't want to be told what is right and wrong but still want a certain matter of spiritual guidance.

I apologize for coming across that way. I think most non-believers laugh when they see mega-churches, and that's the point I was trying to make. People are joining for the "fun", imo, and not because of the particular teachings of the pastor.

But I do agree that the "non-denominational" thing is big too. And yes, most people don't want to be told what is right and wrong either. So we are in agreement there as well.

I agree with all of this. Megachurches are certainly a lot trendier than your standard churches around here, that's for sure. Going to the megachurch seems like much more of an event, a social hour. And maybe that's a good thing, if it spurs people to give back to the community and such. I guess people worship in different ways.

 

[culdeus]

I doubt it. Mega-churches are generally exploding in popularity. I don't know what accounting factors cause you to think they you are losing money on it...but I would argue that all the side benefits are the reason churches are exploding in popularity. And I'd bet the finances of your church are doing just fine.

Provoking question: Why are mega-churches seeing large increases? Did their pastors suddenly come up with teachings that are far and above that of other churches?

From my POV as an ex-Catholic non-church-goer with a number of family and friends attending megachurches now, it seems to me like one of the main sticking points is the inclusiveness. Perhaps you could call it non-denominational-ness.

You always seem to attack others in these threads under the guise that your church and your understanding of the Bible are correct and that others are incorrect - and that to me is a great example of what many people AREN'T looking for. I think a lot of people don't want to be told what is right and wrong but still want a certain matter of spiritual guidance.

I apologize for coming across that way. I think most non-believers laugh when they see mega-churches, and that's the point I was trying to make. People are joining for the "fun", imo, and not because of the particular teachings of the pastor.

But I do agree that the "non-denominational" thing is big too. And yes, most people don't want to be told what is right and wrong either. So we are in agreement there as well.

Why is it just not the natural de-evolution of the catholic church? First Catholic, then Church of England, then Protestants, then Methodists, Quakers, Presbys all that and ultimately nothing. I mean the spread of non-doms makes perfect sense. Low barrier to entry, inclusive to all groups, simplified teachings, and more entertaining services.

 

[The Commish]

I doubt it. Mega-churches are generally exploding in popularity. I don't know what accounting factors cause you to think they you are losing money on it...but I would argue that all the side benefits are the reason churches are exploding in popularity. And I'd bet the finances of your church are doing just fine.

Provoking question: Why are mega-churches seeing large increases? Did their pastors suddenly come up with teachings that are far and above that of other churches?

From my POV as an ex-Catholic non-church-goer with a number of family and friends attending megachurches now, it seems to me like one of the main sticking points is the inclusiveness. Perhaps you could call it non-denominational-ness.

You always seem to attack others in these threads under the guise that your church and your understanding of the Bible are correct and that others are incorrect - and that to me is a great example of what many people AREN'T looking for. I think a lot of people don't want to be told what is right and wrong but still want a certain matter of spiritual guidance.

I apologize for coming across that way. I think most non-believers laugh when they see mega-churches, and that's the point I was trying to make. People are joining for the "fun", imo, and not because of the particular teachings of the pastor.

But I do agree that the "non-denominational" thing is big too. And yes, most people don't want to be told what is right and wrong either. So we are in agreement there as well.

I agree with all of this. Megachurches are certainly a lot trendier than your standard churches around here, that's for sure. Going to the megachurch seems like much more of an event, a social hour. And maybe that's a good thing, if it spurs people to give back to the community and such. I guess people worship in different ways.

These churches all start with a small group of people though. I don't think I've ever heard of a megachurch that was a megachurch from day one. So to make these assumptions, especially the ones shader makes is pretty dumb to me. Are there some that go for the "fun"? Sure. Just remember, they are able to go for the dog and pony show because there was a small group of people who planted that church and I'm willing to be, more than not are there for more than the "fun".

 

[The Commish]

I doubt it. Mega-churches are generally exploding in popularity. I don't know what accounting factors cause you to think they you are losing money on it...but I would argue that all the side benefits are the reason churches are exploding in popularity. And I'd bet the finances of your church are doing just fine.

Provoking question: Why are mega-churches seeing large increases? Did their pastors suddenly come up with teachings that are far and above that of other churches?

From my POV as an ex-Catholic non-church-goer with a number of family and friends attending megachurches now, it seems to me like one of the main sticking points is the inclusiveness. Perhaps you could call it non-denominational-ness.

You always seem to attack others in these threads under the guise that your church and your understanding of the Bible are correct and that others are incorrect - and that to me is a great example of what many people AREN'T looking for. I think a lot of people don't want to be told what is right and wrong but still want a certain matter of spiritual guidance.

I apologize for coming across that way. I think most non-believers laugh when they see mega-churches, and that's the point I was trying to make. People are joining for the "fun", imo, and not because of the particular teachings of the pastor.

But I do agree that the "non-denominational" thing is big too. And yes, most people don't want to be told what is right and wrong either. So we are in agreement there as well.

Why is it just not the natural de-evolution of the catholic church? First Catholic, then Church of England, then Protestants, then Methodists, Quakers, Presbys all that and ultimately nothing. I mean the spread of non-doms makes perfect sense. Low barrier to entry, inclusive to all groups, simplified teachings, and more entertaining services.

There are some interesting articles floating around the innerwebs regarding this. There are a lot of organizations that are threatened by non-denominational. I have this battle going on in my family at this very minute.. People intertwine religion and pursuit of God so easily that they often mistake pursuit of God with pursuit of their religion. The "traditional" churches spend more time in their book of rules than they do in the Bible and are very resistent to changing that.

 

[Jayrok]

Why is it just not the natural de-evolution of the catholic church? First Catholic, then Church of England, then Protestants, then Methodists, Quakers, Presbys all that and ultimately nothing. I mean the spread of non-doms makes perfect sense. Low barrier to entry, inclusive to all groups, simplified teachings, and more entertaining services.

It's interesting for sure. Sometimes I listen to a radio broadcast of an old school evangelical paster out of North Carolina and he often talks about these megachurches and the damage they could do. Granted, he is old school and wouldn't be used to the contemporary music you'll hear at a M-Church.

He was doing a study on King Jeroboam (in 1 Kings) who set up a couple of golden calf idols in Israel and Judah. Jeroboam started out serving the Israelite God then succumbed to a sort of peer pressure to institute a new golden calf religion, so to speak.

The pastor equates these new M-Churches popping up across the country to the golden calf religions of Jeroboam. Entertaining modern music, modern activities, etc., that attract many new followers but they sort of stray away from worshipping Christ... at least in the eyes of this old pastor.

 

[culdeus]

Why is it just not the natural de-evolution of the catholic church? First Catholic, then Church of England, then Protestants, then Methodists, Quakers, Presbys all that and ultimately nothing. I mean the spread of non-doms makes perfect sense. Low barrier to entry, inclusive to all groups, simplified teachings, and more entertaining services.

It's interesting for sure. Sometimes I listen to a radio broadcast of an old school evangelical paster out of North Carolina and he often talks about these megachurches and the damage they could do. Granted, he is old school and wouldn't be used to the contemporary music you'll hear at a M-Church.

He was doing a study on King Jeroboam (in 1 Kings) who set up a couple of golden calf idols in Israel and Judah. Jeroboam started out serving the Israelite God then succumbed to a sort of peer pressure to institute a new golden calf religion, so to speak.

The pastor equates these new M-Churches popping up across the country to the golden calf religions of Jeroboam. Entertaining modern music, modern activities, etc., that attract many new followers but they sort of stray away from worshipping Christ... at least in the eyes of this old pastor.

Not to stereotype, but the main benefit I see to these is the singles groups. People get laid like tile at these M-Churches.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Not to stereotype, but the main benefit I see to these is the singles groups. People get laid like tile at these M-Churches.

I know nothing of MegaChurch... The first comment of the thread said there were tons of 10's there & now this????

Is this all true?

 

[Pastor]

Why is it just not the natural de-evolution of the catholic church? First Catholic, then Church of England, then Protestants, then Methodists, Quakers, Presbys all that and ultimately nothing. I mean the spread of non-doms makes perfect sense. Low barrier to entry, inclusive to all groups, simplified teachings, and more entertaining services.

It's interesting for sure. Sometimes I listen to a radio broadcast of an old school evangelical paster out of North Carolina and he often talks about these megachurches and the damage they could do. Granted, he is old school and wouldn't be used to the contemporary music you'll hear at a M-Church.

He was doing a study on King Jeroboam (in 1 Kings) who set up a couple of golden calf idols in Israel and Judah. Jeroboam started out serving the Israelite God then succumbed to a sort of peer pressure to institute a new golden calf religion, so to speak.

The pastor equates these new M-Churches popping up across the country to the golden calf religions of Jeroboam. Entertaining modern music, modern activities, etc., that attract many new followers but they sort of stray away from worshipping Christ... at least in the eyes of this old pastor.

People generally don't like change. The funny thing is the old hymns that he likes were not accepted by the church back in the day because they used common tunes from bar songs.

 

[mr roboto]

Not to stereotype, but the main benefit I see to these is the singles groups. People get laid like tile at these M-Churches.

I know nothing of MegaChurch... The first comment of the thread said there were tons of 10's there & now this????

Is this all true?

In my experience, yes.

 

[Jayrok]

Why is it just not the natural de-evolution of the catholic church? First Catholic, then Church of England, then Protestants, then Methodists, Quakers, Presbys all that and ultimately nothing. I mean the spread of non-doms makes perfect sense. Low barrier to entry, inclusive to all groups, simplified teachings, and more entertaining services.

It's interesting for sure. Sometimes I listen to a radio broadcast of an old school evangelical paster out of North Carolina and he often talks about these megachurches and the damage they could do. Granted, he is old school and wouldn't be used to the contemporary music you'll hear at a M-Church.

He was doing a study on King Jeroboam (in 1 Kings) who set up a couple of golden calf idols in Israel and Judah. Jeroboam started out serving the Israelite God then succumbed to a sort of peer pressure to institute a new golden calf religion, so to speak.

The pastor equates these new M-Churches popping up across the country to the golden calf religions of Jeroboam. Entertaining modern music, modern activities, etc., that attract many new followers but they sort of stray away from worshipping Christ... at least in the eyes of this old pastor.

Not to stereotype, but the main benefit I see to these is the singles groups. People get laid like tile at these M-Churches.

Oh? hmm, maybe that's why my brothers attend.

 

[Jayrok]

Why is it just not the natural de-evolution of the catholic church? First Catholic, then Church of England, then Protestants, then Methodists, Quakers, Presbys all that and ultimately nothing. I mean the spread of non-doms makes perfect sense. Low barrier to entry, inclusive to all groups, simplified teachings, and more entertaining services.

It's interesting for sure. Sometimes I listen to a radio broadcast of an old school evangelical paster out of North Carolina and he often talks about these megachurches and the damage they could do. Granted, he is old school and wouldn't be used to the contemporary music you'll hear at a M-Church.

He was doing a study on King Jeroboam (in 1 Kings) who set up a couple of golden calf idols in Israel and Judah. Jeroboam started out serving the Israelite God then succumbed to a sort of peer pressure to institute a new golden calf religion, so to speak.

The pastor equates these new M-Churches popping up across the country to the golden calf religions of Jeroboam. Entertaining modern music, modern activities, etc., that attract many new followers but they sort of stray away from worshipping Christ... at least in the eyes of this old pastor.

People generally don't like change. The funny thing is the old hymns that he likes were not accepted by the church back in the day because they used common tunes from bar songs.

I like the old hymns. With those the congregation would sing along with the hymnal.. even if they didn't know the words they recognize the tune. With modern Christian music in church, the praise band has everyone stand and sing along, but no one knows the song.. especially the old folks. They put it up on the screen but, no, the tune doesn't ring a bell so we all just stand there like a bunch of idiots.

Whatever happened to On Jordan's stormy banks I stand and cast a wishful eye... and Just as I am without one plea... and Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling... I miss those. Now it's all GODS NOT DEAD HE'S SURELY ALIVE! 'guitar solo'... 'short rap solo'.. followed by thunderous applause and a "thank you! it's great to be here in Philly!"

 

[Disc Shark]

From what I know, some mega-churches use what amounts to a form of multi-level marketing. A large one in my area heavily targets pre-teens and teenagers. The church has all sorts of fun activities of the sort in Pastor's youth community center. The kids are strongly encouraged to recruit other kids to attend the church. One of my son's friends got my son to go one time. From what I was told, a person was not able to become a full member of the church until they had recruited X number of church attendees.

 

[McGarnicle]

Andy Stanley here in Atlanta runs the second largest church in the nation. His membership has exploded over the past decade, and he has satellite churches all over town. He's also one of the most liberal pastors you're likely to encounter. He has stated that it's okay if someone believes that Adam & Eve is just another creation myth, and he's very tolerant of gays. He's despised among the old-school Christian fire & brimstone crowd, but he's getting people to flock to his churches in droves.

 

[shader]

I doubt it. Mega-churches are generally exploding in popularity. I don't know what accounting factors cause you to think they you are losing money on it...but I would argue that all the side benefits are the reason churches are exploding in popularity. And I'd bet the finances of your church are doing just fine.

Provoking question: Why are mega-churches seeing large increases? Did their pastors suddenly come up with teachings that are far and above that of other churches?

From my POV as an ex-Catholic non-church-goer with a number of family and friends attending megachurches now, it seems to me like one of the main sticking points is the inclusiveness. Perhaps you could call it non-denominational-ness.

You always seem to attack others in these threads under the guise that your church and your understanding of the Bible are correct and that others are incorrect - and that to me is a great example of what many people AREN'T looking for. I think a lot of people don't want to be told what is right and wrong but still want a certain matter of spiritual guidance.

I apologize for coming across that way. I think most non-believers laugh when they see mega-churches, and that's the point I was trying to make. People are joining for the "fun", imo, and not because of the particular teachings of the pastor.

But I do agree that the "non-denominational" thing is big too. And yes, most people don't want to be told what is right and wrong either. So we are in agreement there as well.

I agree with all of this. Megachurches are certainly a lot trendier than your standard churches around here, that's for sure. Going to the megachurch seems like much more of an event, a social hour. And maybe that's a good thing, if it spurs people to give back to the community and such. I guess people worship in different ways.

These churches all start with a small group of people though. I don't think I've ever heard of a megachurch that was a megachurch from day one. So to make these assumptions, especially the ones shader makes is pretty dumb to me. Are there some that go for the "fun"? Sure. Just remember, they are able to go for the dog and pony show because there was a small group of people who planted that church and I'm willing to be, more than not are there for more than the "fun".

what assumptions?

 

[saintsfan]

Why is it just not the natural de-evolution of the catholic church? First Catholic, then Church of England, then Protestants, then Methodists, Quakers, Presbys all that and ultimately nothing. I mean the spread of non-doms makes perfect sense. Low barrier to entry, inclusive to all groups, simplified teachings, and more entertaining services.

It's interesting for sure. Sometimes I listen to a radio broadcast of an old school evangelical paster out of North Carolina and he often talks about these megachurches and the damage they could do. Granted, he is old school and wouldn't be used to the contemporary music you'll hear at a M-Church.

He was doing a study on King Jeroboam (in 1 Kings) who set up a couple of golden calf idols in Israel and Judah. Jeroboam started out serving the Israelite God then succumbed to a sort of peer pressure to institute a new golden calf religion, so to speak.

The pastor equates these new M-Churches popping up across the country to the golden calf religions of Jeroboam. Entertaining modern music, modern activities, etc., that attract many new followers but they sort of stray away from worshipping Christ... at least in the eyes of this old pastor.

People generally don't like change. The funny thing is the old hymns that he likes were not accepted by the church back in the day because they used common tunes from bar songs.

I like the old hymns. With those the congregation would sing along with the hymnal.. even if they didn't know the words they recognize the tune. With modern Christian music in church, the praise band has everyone stand and sing along, but no one knows the song.. especially the old folks. They put it up on the screen but, no, the tune doesn't ring a bell so we all just stand there like a bunch of idiots.

Whatever happened to On Jordan's stormy banks I stand and cast a wishful eye... and Just as I am without one plea... and Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling... I miss those. Now it's all GODS NOT DEAD HE'S SURELY ALIVE! 'guitar solo'... 'short rap solo'.. followed by thunderous applause and a "thank you! it's great to be here in Philly!"

At one time, the "old hymns" weren't the old hymns. They were the new ones and the older people didn't like them because they weren't the "old hymns." Those people were wishing for a return to Gregorian chant or whatever the traditional music used to be at that time.

I lead a youth band in our local Catholic Church and our music is mostly modern and our congregation knows the songs. Why?? Because they attend our Mass every week and they get to know the songs.

I hear that opinion from people sometimes and I'm sorry, I just disagree. The Catholic Church is 2000 years old. Most of the stuff you think are the "old hymns" are, at most, 100 years old, a mere blip in the history of the Church. The music is going to evolve as it always has and that's a good thing.

 

[shader]

Andy Stanley here in Atlanta runs the second largest church in the nation. His membership has exploded over the past decade, and he has satellite churches all over town. He's also one of the most liberal pastors you're likely to encounter. He has stated that it's okay if someone believes that Adam & Eve is just another creation myth, and he's very tolerant of gays. He's despised among the old-school Christian fire & brimstone crowd, but he's getting people to flock to his churches in droves.

Of course it's exploding. Telling people that they can do whatever they want, and God is cool with that....It's probably a very popular and appealing message.

 

[Jayrok]

Why is it just not the natural de-evolution of the catholic church? First Catholic, then Church of England, then Protestants, then Methodists, Quakers, Presbys all that and ultimately nothing. I mean the spread of non-doms makes perfect sense. Low barrier to entry, inclusive to all groups, simplified teachings, and more entertaining services.

It's interesting for sure. Sometimes I listen to a radio broadcast of an old school evangelical paster out of North Carolina and he often talks about these megachurches and the damage they could do. Granted, he is old school and wouldn't be used to the contemporary music you'll hear at a M-Church.

He was doing a study on King Jeroboam (in 1 Kings) who set up a couple of golden calf idols in Israel and Judah. Jeroboam started out serving the Israelite God then succumbed to a sort of peer pressure to institute a new golden calf religion, so to speak.

The pastor equates these new M-Churches popping up across the country to the golden calf religions of Jeroboam. Entertaining modern music, modern activities, etc., that attract many new followers but they sort of stray away from worshipping Christ... at least in the eyes of this old pastor.

People generally don't like change. The funny thing is the old hymns that he likes were not accepted by the church back in the day because they used common tunes from bar songs.

I like the old hymns. With those the congregation would sing along with the hymnal.. even if they didn't know the words they recognize the tune. With modern Christian music in church, the praise band has everyone stand and sing along, but no one knows the song.. especially the old folks. They put it up on the screen but, no, the tune doesn't ring a bell so we all just stand there like a bunch of idiots.

Whatever happened to On Jordan's stormy banks I stand and cast a wishful eye... and Just as I am without one plea... and Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling... I miss those. Now it's all GODS NOT DEAD HE'S SURELY ALIVE! 'guitar solo'... 'short rap solo'.. followed by thunderous applause and a "thank you! it's great to be here in Philly!"

At one time, the "old hymns" weren't the old hymns. They were the new ones and the older people didn't like them because they weren't the "old hymns." Those people were wishing for a return to Gregorian chant or whatever the traditional music used to be at that time.

I lead a youth band in our local Catholic Church and our music is mostly modern and our congregation knows the songs. Why?? Because they attend our Mass every week and they get to know the songs.

I hear that opinion from people sometimes and I'm sorry, I just disagree. The Catholic Church is 2000 years old. Most of the stuff you think are the "old hymns" are, at most, 100 years old, a mere blip in the history of the Church. The music is going to evolve as it always has and that's a good thing.

Get off my lawn..

 

[McGarnicle]

Andy Stanley here in Atlanta runs the second largest church in the nation. His membership has exploded over the past decade, and he has satellite churches all over town. He's also one of the most liberal pastors you're likely to encounter. He has stated that it's okay if someone believes that Adam & Eve is just another creation myth, and he's very tolerant of gays. He's despised among the old-school Christian fire & brimstone crowd, but he's getting people to flock to his churches in droves.

Of course it's exploding. Telling people that they can do whatever they want, and God is cool with that....It's probably a very popular and appealing message.

Not aware of him saying that.

 

[saintsfan]

Why is it just not the natural de-evolution of the catholic church? First Catholic, then Church of England, then Protestants, then Methodists, Quakers, Presbys all that and ultimately nothing. I mean the spread of non-doms makes perfect sense. Low barrier to entry, inclusive to all groups, simplified teachings, and more entertaining services.

It's interesting for sure. Sometimes I listen to a radio broadcast of an old school evangelical paster out of North Carolina and he often talks about these megachurches and the damage they could do. Granted, he is old school and wouldn't be used to the contemporary music you'll hear at a M-Church.

He was doing a study on King Jeroboam (in 1 Kings) who set up a couple of golden calf idols in Israel and Judah. Jeroboam started out serving the Israelite God then succumbed to a sort of peer pressure to institute a new golden calf religion, so to speak.

The pastor equates these new M-Churches popping up across the country to the golden calf religions of Jeroboam. Entertaining modern music, modern activities, etc., that attract many new followers but they sort of stray away from worshipping Christ... at least in the eyes of this old pastor.

People generally don't like change. The funny thing is the old hymns that he likes were not accepted by the church back in the day because they used common tunes from bar songs.

I like the old hymns. With those the congregation would sing along with the hymnal.. even if they didn't know the words they recognize the tune. With modern Christian music in church, the praise band has everyone stand and sing along, but no one knows the song.. especially the old folks. They put it up on the screen but, no, the tune doesn't ring a bell so we all just stand there like a bunch of idiots.

Whatever happened to On Jordan's stormy banks I stand and cast a wishful eye... and Just as I am without one plea... and Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling... I miss those. Now it's all GODS NOT DEAD HE'S SURELY ALIVE! 'guitar solo'... 'short rap solo'.. followed by thunderous applause and a "thank you! it's great to be here in Philly!"

At one time, the "old hymns" weren't the old hymns. They were the new ones and the older people didn't like them because they weren't the "old hymns." Those people were wishing for a return to Gregorian chant or whatever the traditional music used to be at that time.

I lead a youth band in our local Catholic Church and our music is mostly modern and our congregation knows the songs. Why?? Because they attend our Mass every week and they get to know the songs.

I hear that opinion from people sometimes and I'm sorry, I just disagree. The Catholic Church is 2000 years old. Most of the stuff you think are the "old hymns" are, at most, 100 years old, a mere blip in the history of the Church. The music is going to evolve as it always has and that's a good thing.

Get off my lawn..

 

[Jayrok]

At one time, the "old hymns" weren't the old hymns. They were the new ones and the older people didn't like them because they weren't the "old hymns." Those people were wishing for a return to Gregorian chant or whatever the traditional music used to be at that time.

I lead a youth band in our local Catholic Church and our music is mostly modern and our congregation knows the songs. Why?? Because they attend our Mass every week and they get to know the songs.

I hear that opinion from people sometimes and I'm sorry, I just disagree. The Catholic Church is 2000 years old. Most of the stuff you think are the "old hymns" are, at most, 100 years old, a mere blip in the history of the Church. The music is going to evolve as it always has and that's a good thing.

Don't get me wrong, I do like some of the new songs, just not all of them. I play some of the newer tunes such as Oceans (where feet may fail), Come to the Well, Lead me (Sanctus Real), to name just a few, on guitar and enjoy singing them. But I like the hymns too.

 

[shader]

Andy Stanley here in Atlanta runs the second largest church in the nation. His membership has exploded over the past decade, and he has satellite churches all over town. He's also one of the most liberal pastors you're likely to encounter. He has stated that it's okay if someone believes that Adam & Eve is just another creation myth, and he's very tolerant of gays. He's despised among the old-school Christian fire & brimstone crowd, but he's getting people to flock to his churches in droves.

Of course it's exploding. Telling people that they can do whatever they want, and God is cool with that....It's probably a very popular and appealing message.

Not aware of him saying that.

Basically, that's exactly what he's saying.

 

[saintsfan]

At one time, the "old hymns" weren't the old hymns. They were the new ones and the older people didn't like them because they weren't the "old hymns." Those people were wishing for a return to Gregorian chant or whatever the traditional music used to be at that time.

I lead a youth band in our local Catholic Church and our music is mostly modern and our congregation knows the songs. Why?? Because they attend our Mass every week and they get to know the songs.

I hear that opinion from people sometimes and I'm sorry, I just disagree. The Catholic Church is 2000 years old. Most of the stuff you think are the "old hymns" are, at most, 100 years old, a mere blip in the history of the Church. The music is going to evolve as it always has and that's a good thing.

Don't get me wrong, I do like some of the new songs, just not all of them. I play some of the newer tunes such as Oceans (where feet may fail), Come to the Well, Lead me (Sanctus Real), to name just a few, on guitar and enjoy singing them. But I like the hymns too.

Our pastor, IMO, does a GREAT job of trying to appeal to everyone and I think that's the answer. If you want traditional music, our vigil, 8am, and 10am Mass is for you. If you want children oriented music, our noon Children's Mass is the place for you and if you want more contemporary Christian music, come see SoulSpirit lead worship at the 7pm Youth Mass.

Something for everybody...

 

[McGarnicle]

Andy Stanley here in Atlanta runs the second largest church in the nation. His membership has exploded over the past decade, and he has satellite churches all over town. He's also one of the most liberal pastors you're likely to encounter. He has stated that it's okay if someone believes that Adam & Eve is just another creation myth, and he's very tolerant of gays. He's despised among the old-school Christian fire & brimstone crowd, but he's getting people to flock to his churches in droves.

Of course it's exploding. Telling people that they can do whatever they want, and God is cool with that....It's probably a very popular and appealing message.

Not aware of him saying that.

Basically, that's exactly what he's saying.

And you've heard him preach how many times?

 

[proninja]

Why is it just not the natural de-evolution of the catholic church? First Catholic, then Church of England, then Protestants, then Methodists, Quakers, Presbys all that and ultimately nothing. I mean the spread of non-doms makes perfect sense. Low barrier to entry, inclusive to all groups, simplified teachings, and more entertaining services.

It's interesting for sure. Sometimes I listen to a radio broadcast of an old school evangelical paster out of North Carolina and he often talks about these megachurches and the damage they could do. Granted, he is old school and wouldn't be used to the contemporary music you'll hear at a M-Church.

He was doing a study on King Jeroboam (in 1 Kings) who set up a couple of golden calf idols in Israel and Judah. Jeroboam started out serving the Israelite God then succumbed to a sort of peer pressure to institute a new golden calf religion, so to speak.

The pastor equates these new M-Churches popping up across the country to the golden calf religions of Jeroboam. Entertaining modern music, modern activities, etc., that attract many new followers but they sort of stray away from worshipping Christ... at least in the eyes of this old pastor.

People generally don't like change. The funny thing is the old hymns that he likes were not accepted by the church back in the day because they used common tunes from bar songs.

I like the old hymns. With those the congregation would sing along with the hymnal.. even if they didn't know the words they recognize the tune. With modern Christian music in church, the praise band has everyone stand and sing along, but no one knows the song.. especially the old folks. They put it up on the screen but, no, the tune doesn't ring a bell so we all just stand there like a bunch of idiots.

Whatever happened to On Jordan's stormy banks I stand and cast a wishful eye... and Just as I am without one plea... and Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling... I miss those. Now it's all GODS NOT DEAD HE'S SURELY ALIVE! 'guitar solo'... 'short rap solo'.. followed by thunderous applause and a "thank you! it's great to be here in Philly!"

I don't have an issue with newer worship songs, but I do have an issue with worship as a performance with light shows, music so loud the congregation can't hear themselves sing, and a rock star writing a bunch of new songs and starting a record label under the church. People like concerts, but to me that ceases to be corporate worship and starts to be corporate concert watching.

I definitely have a preference for hymns, however.

 

[Jayrok]

At one time, the "old hymns" weren't the old hymns. They were the new ones and the older people didn't like them because they weren't the "old hymns." Those people were wishing for a return to Gregorian chant or whatever the traditional music used to be at that time.

I lead a youth band in our local Catholic Church and our music is mostly modern and our congregation knows the songs. Why?? Because they attend our Mass every week and they get to know the songs.

I hear that opinion from people sometimes and I'm sorry, I just disagree. The Catholic Church is 2000 years old. Most of the stuff you think are the "old hymns" are, at most, 100 years old, a mere blip in the history of the Church. The music is going to evolve as it always has and that's a good thing.

Don't get me wrong, I do like some of the new songs, just not all of them. I play some of the newer tunes such as Oceans (where feet may fail), Come to the Well, Lead me (Sanctus Real), to name just a few, on guitar and enjoy singing them. But I like the hymns too.

Our pastor, IMO, does a GREAT job of trying to appeal to everyone and I think that's the answer. If you want traditional music, our vigil, 8am, and 10am Mass is for you. If you want children oriented music, our noon Children's Mass is the place for you and if you want more contemporary Christian music, come see SoulSpirit lead worship at the 7pm Youth Mass.

Something for everybody...

We do similar but with the Communion meal. If you want the tasteless wafers you find at a Christian store and grape juice, come to the 9am service.. if you want saltine crackers and sparkling cider, come to the 11am service.. if you want a whole piece of toasted flat bread and Cabernet Sauvignon, the 3pm service is the one for you... and if you want garlic and herb crusted unlevened bread and Mogen David, the happy hour 5pm service is the place to be.

 

[Jayrok]

Why is it just not the natural de-evolution of the catholic church? First Catholic, then Church of England, then Protestants, then Methodists, Quakers, Presbys all that and ultimately nothing. I mean the spread of non-doms makes perfect sense. Low barrier to entry, inclusive to all groups, simplified teachings, and more entertaining services.

It's interesting for sure. Sometimes I listen to a radio broadcast of an old school evangelical paster out of North Carolina and he often talks about these megachurches and the damage they could do. Granted, he is old school and wouldn't be used to the contemporary music you'll hear at a M-Church.

He was doing a study on King Jeroboam (in 1 Kings) who set up a couple of golden calf idols in Israel and Judah. Jeroboam started out serving the Israelite God then succumbed to a sort of peer pressure to institute a new golden calf religion, so to speak.

The pastor equates these new M-Churches popping up across the country to the golden calf religions of Jeroboam. Entertaining modern music, modern activities, etc., that attract many new followers but they sort of stray away from worshipping Christ... at least in the eyes of this old pastor.

People generally don't like change. The funny thing is the old hymns that he likes were not accepted by the church back in the day because they used common tunes from bar songs.

I like the old hymns. With those the congregation would sing along with the hymnal.. even if they didn't know the words they recognize the tune. With modern Christian music in church, the praise band has everyone stand and sing along, but no one knows the song.. especially the old folks. They put it up on the screen but, no, the tune doesn't ring a bell so we all just stand there like a bunch of idiots.

Whatever happened to On Jordan's stormy banks I stand and cast a wishful eye... and Just as I am without one plea... and Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling... I miss those. Now it's all GODS NOT DEAD HE'S SURELY ALIVE! 'guitar solo'... 'short rap solo'.. followed by thunderous applause and a "thank you! it's great to be here in Philly!"

I don't have an issue with newer worship songs, but I do have an issue with worship as a performance with light shows, music so loud the congregation can't hear themselves sing, and a rock star writing a bunch of new songs and starting a record label under the church. People like concerts, but to me that ceases to be corporate worship and starts to be corporate concert watching.

I definitely have a preference for hymns, however.

I think it would be fairly easy to write a song in the modern Christian music scene. Just take some lyrics out of psalms or proverbs and put it to a basic chord progression, throw in a bridge, intro and maybe an outro, and viola.

 

[shader]

Andy Stanley here in Atlanta runs the second largest church in the nation. His membership has exploded over the past decade, and he has satellite churches all over town. He's also one of the most liberal pastors you're likely to encounter. He has stated that it's okay if someone believes that Adam & Eve is just another creation myth, and he's very tolerant of gays. He's despised among the old-school Christian fire & brimstone crowd, but he's getting people to flock to his churches in droves.

Of course it's exploding. Telling people that they can do whatever they want, and God is cool with that....It's probably a very popular and appealing message.

Not aware of him saying that.

Basically, that's exactly what he's saying.

And you've heard him preach how many times?

Zero. In fact, I've never heard of him. I'm only going off of what you are saying in your post. If he's teaching that it's ok to think of parts of the bible as myth, he's ok with homosexuality...he's in essence telling people that it's ok to pick and choose which parts of the bible they like.

 

[McGarnicle]

Andy Stanley here in Atlanta runs the second largest church in the nation. His membership has exploded over the past decade, and he has satellite churches all over town. He's also one of the most liberal pastors you're likely to encounter. He has stated that it's okay if someone believes that Adam & Eve is just another creation myth, and he's very tolerant of gays. He's despised among the old-school Christian fire & brimstone crowd, but he's getting people to flock to his churches in droves.

Of course it's exploding. Telling people that they can do whatever they want, and God is cool with that....It's probably a very popular and appealing message.

Not aware of him saying that.

Basically, that's exactly what he's saying.

And you've heard him preach how many times?

Zero. In fact, I've never heard of him.

FFA, baby. Never disappoints.

 

[shader]

Andy Stanley here in Atlanta runs the second largest church in the nation. His membership has exploded over the past decade, and he has satellite churches all over town. He's also one of the most liberal pastors you're likely to encounter. He has stated that it's okay if someone believes that Adam & Eve is just another creation myth, and he's very tolerant of gays. He's despised among the old-school Christian fire & brimstone crowd, but he's getting people to flock to his churches in droves.

Of course it's exploding. Telling people that they can do whatever they want, and God is cool with that....It's probably a very popular and appealing message.

Not aware of him saying that.

Basically, that's exactly what he's saying.

And you've heard him preach how many times?

Zero. In fact, I've never heard of him.

FFA, baby. Never disappoints.

I'm sorry for drawing a conclusion based on your comments. I didn't realize I had to listen to his sermons in order to form an opinion on his teachings.

 

[oso diablo]

in my experience, much of the criticism of mega-churches is little more than veiled professional jealousy

 

[Clifford]

I thought it was generally agreed that mega-churches were born because it was too much a pain in the ### and too expensive for people to get divinity degrees and PhD for the payscale? You can get a BA in philosophy and go make decent entry level salary at a mega church if you are white bread enough.

This not directly directed at Culdeus, but we have made it two pages on a quasi-religion thread without people denigrating what others do or what others believe. Let's try and keep this respectful as it is the first time in a long time I can remember anyone discussing religion in a somewhat civilized and respectful manner.

Why is this disrespectful? It's an economic question with a defined endpoint.

Many denominations do not require advanced degrees and some even a degree in theology at all. There are different education systems and requirements for just about all of the different groups. Some Sr. pastors at mega-churches don't have any degree higher than a bachelors degree.

Doesn't this scare you? Shouldn't we want our pastors to be adept in the realm of theology? Don't we frankly need it?

The de-emphasis on academics in most megachurches bothers me. We should have pastors who are well trained in theology, don't you think?

If you are leading a flock of 2k+ people who pretty much believe whatever you say, yeah, I'd say you should be an expert. Tops in the field.

Except for the fact that there are a ton of different beliefs. What happens when one "expert" says hell is symbolic and one says hell is physical?

That's the problem with going to college for theology. It's ridiculous. It's not like math where you go and learn the answer to how to do a math problem. It's going to college to learn how to interpret the bible, and everyone that comes out still disagrees with each other.

So obviously, it's not college that is necessary to understand the bible correctly.

Uh, I think it is, because in order to understand the Bible you need to understand the original languages it was written in, the history of how it came to be, the changes to words and phrases over the years, the historical context of the times, and that's just to school people how they should read it.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Somebody had better call Adam...

(•_•)


( •_•)>⌐■-■


Because there's a lot of ribbing in here.


(⌐■_■)



YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Clifford]

First, I'm enjoying this discussion very much.

I'm agnostic and my boss is an evangelical Presbyterian. I know that he considers the bible as the absoulte word of God, and that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their savior is doomed to hell. When I asked him about people in other countries/cultures who've never been exposed to the bible, what happens to them. His answer to me was that with the evangelical work of Christians, everyone will be exposed at some point in time. I find that answer extremely unsatisfying. Is this a common view (from your experience)?

It's very difficult to reconcile hell with a loving God. People have been trying to rationalize and get around it for hundreds of years. Personally, I believe the problem is that there is no way to reconcile the two.

I see only a few possibilities:

God dooms people who have never heard of the bible to hell (and other people who just don't believe in God), an act that seems unloving by many people

God is loving and we don't really know who is going to hell and who isn't, but if we knew, we'd be satisfied

There is no hell (my belief)

There is no God

Or Marlowe's Faust, which offers the best explanation of hell I have ever heard: Hell is everywhere God is not.

If you never know God (in any form) then you can not spend eternity with God.

If you reject God, you will not be with God.

Combine that with eternity and there being an all-loving, all-encompassing life force that you can never be with because you never knew it or rejected it, that would be hell.

 

[culdeus]

in my experience, much of the criticism of mega-churches is little more than veiled professional jealousy

Probably. The denominational churches are cratering in attendance.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

There is definitely Christian History that is easy to trace back. We have Acts of the Apostles in the Bible but it seems that most of the Gospels were either not truly written by Mathew, Mark, John, but some time after, around 100 AD we could say. And then it wasn't until 313 AD with Constantine recognizing Christians that we see the beginning of fairly recordable history and all the things that followed.

What is hard to grasp is the miracles written in the bible and the scientific laws that Jesus broke such as rising from the dead and rising into the air past outer space into the heavens. I'm not poking fun at it here but the history of Christianity is a lot easier to trace, understand, and believe than the actual bible they hold near n dear.

 

[McGarnicle]

Andy Stanley here in Atlanta runs the second largest church in the nation. His membership has exploded over the past decade, and he has satellite churches all over town. He's also one of the most liberal pastors you're likely to encounter. He has stated that it's okay if someone believes that Adam & Eve is just another creation myth, and he's very tolerant of gays. He's despised among the old-school Christian fire & brimstone crowd, but he's getting people to flock to his churches in droves.

Of course it's exploding. Telling people that they can do whatever they want, and God is cool with that....It's probably a very popular and appealing message.

Not aware of him saying that.

Basically, that's exactly what he's saying.

And you've heard him preach how many times?

Zero. In fact, I've never heard of him.

FFA, baby. Never disappoints.

I'm sorry for drawing a conclusion based on your comments. I didn't realize I had to listen to his sermons in order to form an opinion on his teachings.

Check him out on Youtube. He's a gifted preacher.

 

[fantasycurse42]

:lightbulb:

Church that says everything is okay and you're going to heaven no matter what. You may have to answer to the big man upstairs when your clock expires, but you'll be very wealthy until then.

 

[proninja]

:lightbulb:

Church that says everything is okay and you're going to heaven no matter what. You may have to answer to the big man upstairs when your clock expires, but you'll be very wealthy until then.

:tdjakes:

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Pastor, what keeps you up more at night: The disintegration of the moral fabric of America, or that Timschochet is going to eventually find this thread and derail it?

I have been hoping Timschochet does not find this, is there a stealth thread mode? Actually what keeps me up at night is how to reach people in our community. How do we show Jesus love to the people we are around?

We had a college basketball thread entitled "Official Knitting Thread" for awhile so Ripleys/Archer couldn't find it. It worked for awhile.

I'm an atheist so probably not the best person to answer this, but my take is this: people know where churches are. The most recognizable landmark in my town is this, I mean it's pretty hard to miss, and I'm sure they're pretty welcoming to newcomers. I think the best thing churches can do to improve their image and show love, Jesus or otherwise, is to do good works in the community. Feed homeless, toy drives, etc. etc.

On a micro-level, I've been approached several times in my life by people who have wanted to engage me re: their religion. I've lied to avoid uncomfortable conversations (Mormons), gotten into a heated argument with some dude on a bus who was fairly pushy/narrow-minded, and most recently some dude came up to me in line at Trader Joe's and told me about the Bahai' (?) faith, but he almost seemed secretive.

If somebody's going to do something like this I don't think it's necessarily bad, but I think it's good to just start up conversations with people and then work it in, instead of hitting people up with "Hey, there's this Jesus guy..."

 

[proninja]

Pastor, what keeps you up more at night: The disintegration of the moral fabric of America, or that Timschochet is going to eventually find this thread and derail it?

I have been hoping Timschochet does not find this, is there a stealth thread mode? Actually what keeps me up at night is how to reach people in our community. How do we show Jesus love to the people we are around?

We had a college basketball thread entitled "Official Knitting Thread" for awhile so Ripleys/Archer couldn't find it. It worked for awhile.

I'm an atheist so probably not the best person to answer this, but my take is this: people know where churches are. The most recognizable landmark in my town is this, I mean it's pretty hard to miss, and I'm sure they're pretty welcoming to newcomers. I think the best thing churches can do to improve their image and show love, Jesus or otherwise, is to do good works in the community. Feed homeless, toy drives, etc. etc.

On a micro-level, I've been approached several times in my life by people who have wanted to engage me re: their religion. I've lied to avoid uncomfortable conversations (Mormons), gotten into a heated argument with some dude on a bus who was fairly pushy/narrow-minded, and most recently some dude came up to me in line at Trader Joe's and told me about the Bahai' (?) faith, but he almost seemed secretive.

If somebody's going to do something like this I don't think it's necessarily bad, but I think it's good to just start up conversations with people and then work it in, instead of hitting people up with "Hey, there's this Jesus guy..."

So what do I do with this sandwich board that says "REPENT OR DIE!" then?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Andy Stanley here in Atlanta runs the second largest church in the nation. His membership has exploded over the past decade, and he has satellite churches all over town. He's also one of the most liberal pastors you're likely to encounter. He has stated that it's okay if someone believes that Adam & Eve is just another creation myth, and he's very tolerant of gays. He's despised among the old-school Christian fire & brimstone crowd, but he's getting people to flock to his churches in droves.

Impossible. If there's one thing I've learned from the FFA, its that all Christian churches support young earth creationism and spend most of their time sermonizing against homosexuality (taking an occasional break to demonize single mothers, but that goes without saying).

 

[The Commish]

I'm sorry for drawing a conclusion based on your comments. I didn't realize I had to listen to his sermons in order to form an opinion on his teachings.

You don't....you just need to listen to him to form an INFORMED opinion of him.