BigJim®
Footballguy
Good post. I’d be curious what Stafford’s record was against winning teams also prior to this season.
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Minnesota Vikings Team Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Heatman
- Start date
I looked it up. Apparently it was 8-67 (.106)
In December when the Rams beat the Cardinals, that was the first time in his career he had ever beaten a 10-win team late in the year. He was 0-9 in opportunities before that.
I believe if Cousins was the SF QB they would have beaten the Rams and been in the SB this year. He is a much better QB than Jimmy G
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Being stuck on an incompetent Detroit franchise is certainly a factor for Stafford. Not sure many would have faired much better.
What Stafford had in Detroit vs what Cousins has had in Minnesota (and even Washington) is honestly not even comparable.
No argument here. BigJim was curious about the numbers, so I just looked them up and provided. No judgements on my part.
But it certainly lends some credence to the philosophy some people have that wins are a team stat, not QB stat.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Stafford is the poster boy for that. 12 full seasons with no playoff wins and then 1 season with 4 playoff wins. I wonder what changed?
BigJim®
Footballguy
Thank you. I just think broad stroke analysis isn't really helpful, or worth doing. Am I caring that the Lions were a weaker team? Not really - though it helps show why it's not prudent to assume inability to win on a bad/mediocre team means a guy is therefore incapable of winning generally. Cousins is a statuesque pocket passer who has been impeded for years by a concaving interior line. JMHO, I would not call a pocket passer who has no pocket against good teams a "wilty flower."
Agreed. Fans like to view these situations as binary instead of acknowledging the gray area.
I remember a time when John Elway was viewed as a guy who didn't have what it takes to ever win a Super Bowl. Or when Andy Reid was a coach who was only good in the regular season but was never going to bring you home a trophy.
A guy isn't good enough to win it all... until he actually does it. Now, I don't know if Cousins has what it takes. But we certainly weren't going to find out on the Vikings teams he's been on.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Jeff Gladney found NOT guilty of domestic assault charges.
Ooops, Vikings.
Ooops, Vikings.
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
Meh, a verdict is no the be all. They obviously had enough to indict him. Domestic cases are dicey of course. I assume he’ll get picked up relatively quickly by another club.
snogger
Footballguy
Saved about 10million on cap this year.. The new coach was part of a team that took a QB most thought was slightly Above average to Super Bowl victory.. So hopefully he can do so here.
With Cook, Theilen & Jefferson, the offense skill positions are solid.. Just need to shore up the OL, and CB's...
And they also seem to have a coach who will coach to win, rather than coach not to lose. Looking more forward to this season then I did at this time last year..
skol asylum
Footballguy
Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.
Dumb.
Dumb.
skol asylum
Footballguy
Should have traded Cousins for a 1st next year and gotten bridge guy like Marriotta. Could have lots more cap dollars to work with AND draft capital to take your QB in the first round next year. No trade clause means you get nothing for Cousins.
snogger
Footballguy
TheAristocrat
Footballguy
We love us some 8-9 or 9-8 seasons. Cool.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.
I wanted real change but we got more of the same. This team really holds no interest for me because they seem to be satisfied with the status quo. I can't say I have been on the band wagon as of late but now I feel free to get completely off.
i am much more interested in seeing how the Seahawks rebuild without marquee players. Lets see who gets to a championship first.
I wanted real change but we got more of the same. This team really holds no interest for me because they seem to be satisfied with the status quo. I can't say I have been on the band wagon as of late but now I feel free to get completely off.
i am much more interested in seeing how the Seahawks rebuild without marquee players. Lets see who gets to a championship first.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Trade with who???No team was going to take that massive contract.
The front office deserves credit for turning a $45M 2022 cap hit into $31M, and getting a final 2023 season at $36M. It’s hard to think of that as a QB bargain, but it certainly is when you look what other QBs are demanding. It’s 15% of the cap vs 23%+, for both seasons. There’s a dead cap hit of $12M in 2024, but that’s a relative soft landing to get prepped for a 2024 transition.
Anyone trading for Cousins was trading for a 1 season/$45M QB, who could walk away for nothing. The only way to stop that was a transition tag @ $54M or franchise tag a 3rd time @ $65M. I’m not buying reported interest.
Vikes did well.
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skol asylum
Footballguy
A team like the Colts could have taken it on and they could have also gotten creative with a short extension like Minnesota did. I understand Kirk would also have to agree to it. I should know how it works but apparently teams can also agree to eat some salary when trading a player. Minnesota could have done that. Would have been worth relieving the cap instead of kicking it down the road, plus draft pick compensation. You get nothing now when Kirk is done. Plus you've wasted two years where you could have added some pieces from the cap relief. It really makes very little sense.
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I suppose you could start Mond the next two years and win two games...total.
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
Could have traded him for six first round picks. Use four of those pics to draft secondary help and the other two to draft lineman. In addition to the six pics we probably could’ve gotten a serviceable quarterback at 1/4 of the cost. Building a Super Bowl champion is so easy if people knew what they were doing
Meh. So we save $14MM this year which may be used to marginally improve a marginal team. Then commit $36MM we didn’t have to in 2023 to extend the run of mediocrity. I guess we tear the band aid off in 2024, which will be 1-2 years later than we could’ve.
The front office deserves credit for turning a $45M 2022 cap hit into $31M, and getting a final 2023 season at $36M. It’s hard to think of that as a QB bargain, but it certainly is when you look what other QBs are demanding. It’s 15% of the cap vs 23%+, for both seasons. There’s a dead cap hit of $12M in 2024, but that’s a relative soft landing to get prepped for a 2024 transition.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Who is your upgrade at the QB position?Meh. So we save $14MM this year which may be used to marginally improve a marginal team. Then commit $36MM we didn’t have to in 2023 to extend the run of mediocrity. I guess we tear the band aid off in 2024, which will be 1-2 years later than we could’ve.
I think that’s a pretty silly question, because you’re not getting an “upgrade” at the position (from about the 15th best QB in the League in Cousins) unless you part with a package like the Broncos just did for Wilson.
But I can tell you what you can “upgrade” by moving on from what is still one of the 10 highest paid QB’s in 2022…a #### ton of help at other positions, and a reset at QB where you may luck into a true franchise QB. Or we carry on with the Cousins-led status quo…which sounds like what you prefer?
I guess the bottom line for me is that unless you think the Vikings have a legitimate shot in 2022 or 2023, and I mean a real legitimate shot, then you move the hell on already. I am of the opinion that this Vikings team doesn’t have a legitimate shot (too many holes to win 3-4 consecutive games in the playoffs and a QB that isn’t good enough to carry the team), and that’s especially so with Rodgers back in the division. So rip the band aid off now and try to find that franchise QB that has eluded this franchise for decades.
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
So your gripe is a 15th ranked player (in your opinion) is being paid like a 10th ranked player?
Do you long for the days of Tavaris, Ponder, and Teddy?
The contracts of Smith and Barr are hurting this team more than Cousins. While it may not be his fault, Hunter is also hurting the team with his 26M cap hit.
No, my problem is you’re paying the 15th best player as the 10th best player and that 15th best player isn’t good enough to win a championship unless the rest of the roster is perfect. And I’ve got news for you if you hadn’t heard…it’s not.
By the way, what satisfaction have you derived from these Cousins led teams that you didn’t get from the retreads that you referenced? A few more wins per season? Congrats?
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Cjw_55106
Footballguy
Well again, 15th is your opinion. The realty is, somewhere around 8-15 are pretty interchangeable.
The satisfaction I get is, whether you want to believe it or not, Cousins gives the Vikings a chance to win every week.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I'm just a little shocked anyone is complaining. When I read reports last week that Cousins would not be giving a hometown discount, we were staring down the barrel at a $45M 2022, impossible 2023, and getting nothing for him when he walked. This result was a hometown discount.
Quote of the month from Cjw this AM. Some of you are a bit... uh... unrealistic fantasizing about the Vikes emerging from this with an embarrassment of riches. Even pulling the plug with no Plan B. A new regime is not doing that.
What “discount” are you referring to? That $45MM was just his cap hit this year. He was only getting $35MM in cash. Now we gave him another $35MM guaranteed and he generously allowed the club to spread some of the $14MM in 2022 cap savings into 2024/2025. That’s the discount?
BigJim®
Footballguy
Not having $45M hit + walk/impossibility is the discount. You have an alternative to trim $14M before Wednesday? I'm all ears.
If this extension now allows them a market to trade Cousins then it’s a genius move. If they signed him with the intent to keep him and he’ll be “walking” in 2024 as opposed to 2023, then I guess we just have far different feelings about why you pay a quarterback $35MM per year.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
So you want to dump Cousins, spend the money elsewhere, and then pray you get lucky with finding another QB? Are you willing to put up with worse or similar records if they don't?
BigJim®
Footballguy
The only way they let him "walk" in 2023 is having a $45M cap hit in 2022. Again, I'm all ears on your solutions. It sounds like you'd just cut bait in 2022. That's fine, there are arguments for hitting rock bottom. It is not something a new GM/Head Coach would want to do, but there are arguments. But this pipe dream of the bounty we're getting sending our impossible economics to some other willing team is just that... a pipe dream.SayWhat? said:
Well that’s the risk, right? But the Vikings are likely to be in the exact same spot in 2024, no? I just don’t see this Cousins led team as much more than a fringe playoff team the next couple years. So while there is some admitted comfort in “he could lead us to victory in any given week,” I’m personally tired of that safe option when the upside feels pretty limited. So yeah, I’m willing to take the risk. At some stage you have to, and you hope that you luck into landing your Burrow, Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, etc with that top 10 pick and then actually have a chance for a decade or more.Andy Dufresne said:
Oh, we weren’t getting a bounty for Cousins. I was never on that train. I feel the same in that there is merit to both paths; dump Cousins and bottom out, or keep him and be competitive. And you nailed it on the head in that it’s unlikely a new regime wants to immediately bottom out.
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I agree in principle but in actuality there is nobody in this year's draft that is remotely as talented as the guys you cited.
Allen, Herbert, and Mahomes had questions but they weren't around the physical ability to do the job. Guys this year don't even look like they have NFL starter ability physically speaking.
And the Bengals didn't get lucky with Burrows other than being bad enough to get a generational player when he was available. That's an awfully small needle to thread.
Yeah, I think Willis is the one guy in this years draft that has the physical talent where you could take that gamble, but he’ll be gone by 12.
Anyways, I’m not saying you have to take a QB this year. But the (my perceived) problem with keeping Cousins is that we are going to enter the 2024 draft with no Cousins, the 19th pick, and be worrying about the exact same thing we were worrying about back in 2022…and without much success in those two (wasted) years.
And it’s absolutely a ridiculously small needle to thread, no doubt about that. But you don’t thread it without trying. There’ll be plenty of misses, but wouldn’t it be nice to actually hit for once in this franchise’s existence? To have that QB that every team fears playing against? And to have that guy for a 10-15 year run? There’s only one way to get that…and unfortunately it’s not continually going .500-.600 with Cousins leading the charge.
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BigJim®
Footballguy
Thanks. The only other thing I'd say on why I view as a discount is the years do matter. Cousins might have said 'I want a 4 year commitment or else enjoy your $45M hit.' That was definitely a possibility for an aging QB who holds all of the cards. Having only 2022 and 2023 certainty was a give. The Vikes were in a pretty miserable position, and now have a couple years to figure it out.
All that said, I'm nowhere near as down on Cousins as some here. I think the Zimmer/Spielman brain trust failed to put a pocket passer in a pocket. We'll see if the new regime can rebuild toward his strengths.
This is where I am at. Cousins is not a bad QB and can win games late in a game. He did it last year (minus the defense/special teams/coaching staff actually securing the win after he brought the team back) multiple times. The narrative that Cousins can't win a game himself is exaggerated. He did what he could do to put the team in a position to win many times only to have a conservative coaching staff and poor defense snatch the win from him.
I know I shouldn't have any faith in this team but I don't think it's that far off from being in the mix in the NFC. The offense can score with anybody and has as many weapons as anybody. Cousins is good enough to make the offense work (I think he would have been just as good as Stafford on the Rams). If the Vikes can get Hunter healthy and get another edge rusher it will help the secondary out immensly. Couple that with an improvement or two in the secondary and a coaching staff trying to win instead of not lose and they could be in contention. I believe this team can beat anyone in the NFL unfortunately with the last coaching staff they also proved they can lose to anybody. I am hoping the new regime changes that last part.
skol asylum
Footballguy
I pretty much agree with these guys take on the whole Cousins situation.
https://youtu.be/1Dt1VosgYbg
https://youtu.be/1Dt1VosgYbg
snogger
Footballguy
Exactly. This team was competitive enough last year to easily have won 10+ games last year.. the error fell on coaching "not to lose", rather the "coaching to win".. the new coach comes from a team that coached to win and I am optimistic he will bring that over with him.
SKOL
Donnybrook
Footballguy
Do you ever wonder what the 1999 St Luis Rams would have been like if Trent Green never blew out his his knee in pre-season? Would we have witnessed the greatest show on turf with him at the helm instead of Kurt Warner?
To me Cousins is Trent Green with a monster contract and this organization doesn't believe that he is replacable. Not sure if it is cowardice or arrogance that makes them think that they can win with just minor changes to an aging roster.
To me Cousins is Trent Green with a monster contract and this organization doesn't believe that he is replacable. Not sure if it is cowardice or arrogance that makes them think that they can win with just minor changes to an aging roster.
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BigJim®
Footballguy
Yes it happened, but I'm not sure it is a helpful precedent. Suspect you're not suggesting they look for a grocery bagger and see what happens?
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