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Misogyny - Thoughts on it and has is become widespread? (1 Viewer)

Nugget

Nugget

Footballguy
Misogyny - dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women. 

Vox Article

Forbes on Misogyny

Tucker Carlson (Language in article may be NSFW)

In the recordings, Carlson says women are “like dogs”, claiming: “They’re extremely primitive, they’re basic, they’re not that hard to understand.” He insists that women find misogynist degradation pleasurable and makes sexual, antagonistic comments about women he does and does not like.
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Things that could be considered misogyny or at least worth a discussion:

  • Grabbing women by the ….
  • Suggesting women are less capable
  • Crazy/Hot Matrix
  • Dress codes
  • Rape culture
  • Single mothers
  • Sluts
  • Selling her looks
  • Sexual jokes
  • "Little girl"
  • “all women are crazy”
  • Not believing women
  • Only got ahead because she was a woman
  • Child support is meant to screw men over
  • Barefoot and pregnant
  • Belong in the home
  • traditional view of the woman
  • gender pay gaps
 
Nugget said:
I think specific criticisms would be a huge improvement over implying that women need medication - "Needs a relaxation  pill of unidentifiable origin "
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Taking a Chill Pill is an old as time saying that has nothing to do with gender.   

Decided to double down huh, did you report that OP?

 
Nugget said:
I think specific criticisms would be a huge improvement over implying that women need medication - "Needs a relaxation  pill of unidentifiable origin "
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No different than "take a chill pill."  A little lame, but not at all misogynistic.

Edit: @tonydead beat me to this.  My bad -- should have read further.

 
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Nugget said:
I don't like the idea of reporting, but I do like the idea of discussing.  
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Me neither, but, denigrating women when real is a nice place to draw the line.
 

In fact if it’s so important to you that you had to make a thread about it in Joes forum it seems the least you could do is what he asked. But you do you.  

 
tonydead said:
Me neither, but, denigrating women when real is a nice place to draw the line.
 

In fact if it’s so important to you that you had to make a thread about it in Joes forum it seems the least you could do is what he asked. But you do you.  
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Absolutely agree.  When people reference violence towards women, I'll be sure to report.  This thread was more about ways that we have normalized behavior towards women that may be less than excellent.  You can post examples where I'm off base or incorrect, and perhaps I can take away a message.  I read a comment to be "She's off her meds" vs "taking a chill pill".  I hope we can both see that sometimes vague comments can be interpreted differently.  

 
Nugget said:
Things that could be considered misogyny or at least worth a discussion:

  • Grabbing women by the ….
  • Suggesting women are less capable
  • Crazy/Hot Matrix
  • Dress codes
  • Rape culture
  • Single mothers
  • Sluts
  • Selling her looks
  • Sexual jokes
  • "Little girl"
  • “all women are crazy”
  • Not believing women
  • Only got ahead because she was a woman
  • Child support is meant to screw men over
  • Barefoot and pregnant
  • Belong in the home
  • traditional view of the woman
  • gender pay gaps
Click to expand...
While I don't agree with you on the Warren thread (obviously), I do think society has come a very long way when it comes to issues involving sexual harassment/assault.  It's easy to lose sight of that thanks to certain political leaders, but there aren't very many workplaces that resemble the world of Mad Men any more.  As long as humans exist there will probably be sexual violence and sexual tension in the workplace, but this seems like an area where we've made a lot of improvement.

 
Sure I'll play

Grabbing women by the ….    Awful.  Its not misogynism, thats assault brother.

Suggesting women are less capable    Yeah.  That fits

Crazy/Hot Matrix   Maybe.   Women do guys this way too right?   

Dress codes   Nope.  Men have dress codes too

Rape culture  Doesn't exist

Single mothers  What about them?

Sluts   Exist

Selling her looks  Huh?

Sexual jokes   Everyone, all sexes do this.   It isnt exclusive to men

"Little girl"  Only with consent. believe it or not  GASP...Some women like that

“all women are crazy”   This is in fact, fact   🙂

Not believing women   Always?  I think we have seen what this can lead to.  Women lie too.

Only got ahead because she was a woman  Misogynic

Child support is meant to screw men over  That's not mysogynic, that's just a guy pissed about giving up $$

Barefoot and pregnant  Myso.

Belong in the home  Myso

traditional view of the woman   That's fine.   Doesn't mean things can't change

gender pay gaps  Fake news

 
IvanKaramazov said:
While I don't agree with you on the Warren thread (obviously), I do think society has come a very long way when it comes to issues involving sexual harassment/assault.  It's easy to lose sight of that thanks to certain political leaders, but there aren't very many workplaces that resemble the world of Mad Men any more.  As long as humans exist there will probably be sexual violence and sexual tension in the workplace, but this seems like an area where we've made a lot of improvement.
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I think what people fail to realize and/or acknowledge is that there will ALWAYS be bad people in the world.  As a result, there will always be some prejudice/racism, there will always be workplace violence and/or sexual harassment, etc.  I think it's been minimized to a large extent, and now it can happen in both directions whereas 50 years ago you probably didn't have much sexual harassment of men by women in the workplace if only because men tended to dominate the upper levels of management.  Unfortunately, people use the fact that there are still bad people in the world and the anecdotal incidents such people are involved in as proof that society in general still has an overall issue.  Certainly, we can continue to strive to be better but, as an example, the notion that America is still an extremely racist country is wrong.

 
Nugget said:
Absolutely agree.  When people reference violence towards women, I'll be sure to report.  This thread was more about ways that we have normalized behavior towards women that may be less than excellent.  You can post examples where I'm off base or incorrect, and perhaps I can take away a message.  I read a comment to be "She's off her meds" vs "taking a chill pill".  I hope we can both see that sometimes vague comments can be interpreted differently.  
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You assigning gender to medication, whether it be to calm down or for mental illness isn't misogyny.   It's not an issue of interpretation for anyone other than you.  Perhaps you're the one being misogynistic.  

 
John123 said:
I think what people fail to realize and/or acknowledge is that there will ALWAYS be bad people in the world.  As a result, there will always be some prejudice/racism, there will always be workplace violence and/or sexual harassment, etc.  I think it's been minimized to a large extent, and now it can happen in both directions whereas 50 years ago you probably didn't have much sexual harassment of men by women in the workplace if only because men tended to dominate the upper levels of management.  Unfortunately, people use the fact that there are still bad people in the world and the anecdotal incidents such people are involved in as proof that society in general still has an overall issue.  Certainly, we can continue to strive to be better but, as an example, the notion that America is still an extremely racist country is wrong.
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America is still very racists. I can give multiple examples of it in every day life. In fact we just had yet another report of a black families house being appraised for less then the rest of the neighborhood until they had a white friend pretend like it was his house and then magically their house was worth what everyone else's was. This little trick is estimated to have cost black families over 150 billion in lost wealth creation.. The racism in this country is systemic and deeply ingrained.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
While I don't agree with you on the Warren thread (obviously), I do think society has come a very long way when it comes to issues involving sexual harassment/assault.  It's easy to lose sight of that thanks to certain political leaders, but there aren't very many workplaces that resemble the world of Mad Men any more.  As long as humans exist there will probably be sexual violence and sexual tension in the workplace, but this seems like an area where we've made a lot of improvement.
Click to expand...


John123 said:
I think what people fail to realize and/or acknowledge is that there will ALWAYS be bad people in the world.  As a result, there will always be some prejudice/racism, there will always be workplace violence and/or sexual harassment, etc.  I think it's been minimized to a large extent, and now it can happen in both directions whereas 50 years ago you probably didn't have much sexual harassment of men by women in the workplace if only because men tended to dominate the upper levels of management.  Unfortunately, people use the fact that there are still bad people in the world and the anecdotal incidents such people are involved in as proof that society in general still has an overall issue.  Certainly, we can continue to strive to be better but, as an example, the notion that America is still an extremely racist country is wrong.
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Good points.  But let's be real.  This thread started as a result of the OP claiming that this forum is full of misogyny and subsequently got called out by Joe.  Treating this thread as any real attempt for discussion on the treatment of women is laughable.  

 
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Nugget said:
Absolutely agree.  When people reference violence towards women, I'll be sure to report.  This thread was more about ways that we have normalized behavior towards women that may be less than excellent.  You can post examples where I'm off base or incorrect, and perhaps I can take away a message.  I read a comment to be "She's off her meds" vs "taking a chill pill".  I hope we can both see that sometimes vague comments can be interpreted differently.  
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Wait what?  That's not gender specific at all.    That makes zero sense.  Why make stuff up when there is so much in the world that is real?

 
NCCommish said:
America is still very racists. I can give multiple examples of it in every day life. In fact we just had yet another report of a black families house being appraised for less then the rest of the neighborhood until they had a white friend pretend like it was his house and then magically their house was worth what everyone else's was. This little trick is estimated to have cost black families over 150 billion in lost wealth creation.. The racism in this country is systemic and deeply ingrained.
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And, on cue, an anecdotal story of racism that "proves" this country suffers from massive "systemic" racism.  Where I come from appraisals are based on comps in the neighborhood.  I won't say that in  certain states/counties/cities there can't be a problem such as you describe but I'm gonna be hard pressed to believe that's the norm.  And, of course, I believe there should be legal recourse if some type of bias can be shown. 

 
NCCommish said:
America is still very racists. I can give multiple examples of it in every day life. In fact we just had yet another report of a black families house being appraised for less then the rest of the neighborhood until they had a white friend pretend like it was his house and then magically their house was worth what everyone else's was. This little trick is estimated to have cost black families over 150 billion in lost wealth creation.. The racism in this country is systemic and deeply ingrained.
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He literally predicted someone would come along with an anecdotal to try and say that.   :lol:

 
John123 said:
And, on cue, an anecdotal story of racism that "proves" this country suffers from massive "systemic" racism.  Where I come from appraisals are based on comps in the neighborhood.  I won't say that in  certain states/counties/cities there can't be a problem such as you describe but I'm gonna be hard pressed to believe that's the norm.  And, of course, I believe there should be legal recourse if some type of bias can be shown. 
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Don't care how hard pressed you are to believe anything. This isn't a one off its a thing that happens so often it has literally cost black families billions of dollars.

 
How about anecdotal criminal justice outcomes? Oh wait those are also proven real. How about anecdotal paying more in interest? Oh wait that's so real they tried to make laws against it. The list goes on and on. Ignoring it solves nothing.

 
John123 said:
And, on cue, an anecdotal story of racism that "proves" this country suffers from massive "systemic" racism.  Where I come from appraisals are based on comps in the neighborhood.  I won't say that in  certain states/counties/cities there can't be a problem such as you describe but I'm gonna be hard pressed to believe that's the norm.  And, of course, I believe there should be legal recourse if some type of bias can be shown. 
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This is kind of a hijack from the original thread topic, but what @NCCommish mentions is real and it's not anecdotal.

https://therealdeal.com/2021/09/21/freddie-mac-study-of-12-million-appraisals-shows-racial-disparity/

https://www.brookings.edu/research/biased-appraisals-and-the-devaluation-of-housing-in-black-neighborhoods/

https://www.brookings.edu/research/devaluation-of-assets-in-black-neighborhoods/

 
supermike80 said:
Wait what?  That's not gender specific at all.    That makes zero sense.  Why make stuff up when there is so much in the world that is real?
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I might be in a bubble.  I hear references to women being crazy and off of their meds all the time - not for men.  I work automotive, maybe people are just talking trash on the opposite sex more and others have an experience that is different than mine.  I don't think I'm making this up, but I could be in the minority.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Derailing threads about misogyny because you want to talk about racism instead = misogyny.  

Note: 95% snark, 5% legitimate gripe.
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Just a note that my post was not intended to discuss racism.  I used racism as an example of something that some people think is still a massive problem but for the most part isn't.  The same applies with misogyny and other "causes" where the demand for that cause exceeds the supply so people make it up.  Unfortunately, I used racism as my example because it seems to be at the forefront of that movement. 

 
tonydead said:
:shrug:

The OP doesn't understand misogyny. 

Certain posters arguing everything that fits the agenda.

Words just don't matter anymore.  
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I tried to post a definition and some articles to discuss.  If you don't think I'm being genuine, that is fine.   If you'd like to give me a better definition, I'd appreciate it.  

Politically, from both sides, I feel there are more attacks on women in general than on men.  While I disagree with Lauren Boebert and MTG on most things, I think they get outsized coverage and criticism.  

 
Yes/No for the below?

"I only bought those from you because you are a woman".

"Sweetheart, let me explain to you how this works"

 
There is definitely Misogyny in the country. It is also at it's lowest point in the history of the country. Will be better still in 5,10, 15 years and so on. 

 
Nugget said:
Misogyny - dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women. 

Vox Article

Forbes on Misogyny

Tucker Carlson (Language in article may be NSFW)

Things that could be considered misogyny or at least worth a discussion:

  • Grabbing women by the ….
  • Suggesting women are less capable
  • Crazy/Hot Matrix
  • Dress codes
  • Rape culture
  • Single mothers
  • Sluts
  • Selling her looks
  • Sexual jokes
  • "Little girl"
  • “all women are crazy”
  • Not believing women
  • Only got ahead because she was a woman
  • Child support is meant to screw men over
  • Barefoot and pregnant
  • Belong in the home
  • traditional view of the woman
  • gender pay gaps
Click to expand...


I'm not sure what your question is.

Anything that disrespects women is bad. We've made mistakes I'm sure, but I think we do a pretty job here of not having that on our forums. If you see it, please report it.

Are you asking us to discuss if each of those things you list in your bullet points are bad? I don't know what you mean by "single mothers", or "traditional view of the woman" but the others seem pretty obvious. 

Or are you asking something else?

 
Rich Conway said:
This is kind of a hijack from the original thread topic, but what @NCCommish mentions is real and it's not anecdotal.

https://therealdeal.com/2021/09/21/freddie-mac-study-of-12-million-appraisals-shows-racial-disparity/

https://www.brookings.edu/research/biased-appraisals-and-the-devaluation-of-housing-in-black-neighborhoods/

https://www.brookings.edu/research/devaluation-of-assets-in-black-neighborhoods/
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Two issues I have with these studies:

a) It's against the Fair Housing Act of 1968 for home appraisers to discriminate based on someone's race, color, religion, sex, disability, family status or national origin.  If anyone is doing that they are criminals.  America isn't racist, we have laws against it.

b) Every one of these studies compare home values in majority Black neighborhoods with majority White neighborhoods.  That isn't individual racism.  That's economic inequality.  Of course the same house is worth less in a less desirable neighborhoods.  

This reminds me of the conversation in the BBB thread.  Dems need to learn to call it what it is.  

Economic inequality - absolutely and it's the same for the 10% Latino and 1% white people that live there.

I got a lower appraisal for my house because my skin is black - no you didn't.

 
Nugget said:
Politically, from both sides, I feel there are more attacks on women in general than on men.  While I disagree with Lauren Boebert and MTG on most things, I think they get outsized coverage and criticism.  
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See, I think these two richly deserve the majority of criticism that they get.  I know Joe doesn't like us to refer to politicians as "crazy," and these two are not clinically insane or anything like that.  But there ought to be a word for "living in a reality far different and far more cartoonish than the rest of us" which is what people really mean when they use terms like "crazy" or "unhinged" in normal English.  I think that's a pretty reasonable description of Boebert and MTG.  

 
John123 said:
  I used racism as an example of something that some people think is still a massive problem but for the most part isn't.  The same applies with misogyny and other "causes" where the demand for that cause exceeds the supply so people make it up.  
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Wow, none of the things people are concerned about exist? 

There's no racism, and there's no misogyny. 

Which other bad things don't exist? 

 
Joe Bryant said:
I'm not sure what your question is.

Anything that disrespects women is bad. We've made mistakes I'm sure, but I think we do a pretty job here of not having that on our forums. If you see it, please report it.

Are you asking us to discuss if each of those things you list in your bullet points are bad? I don't know what you mean by "single mothers", or "traditional view of the woman" but the others seem pretty obvious. 

Or are you asking something else?
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I think I'm trying to calibrate.  I've seen posts that suggest that single mothers are the cause of many of the problems in the country - if these women would have some sexual self control we would have better results.  Or maybe there is another term I should be using.  When women are expected to bake cakes for the Christmas party and guys are supposed to bring the cooler.  When women just need to relax because of locker room talk and stop being high maintenance.  

Again, maybe I'm just being too sensitive, but it would feel more wrong not at least bringing the issue up.  

 
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massraider said:
There's no racism, and there's no misogyny. 
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I think it's important we are clear on words. And on what people say. Especially when we're talking about they said. 

Nobody here, including the poster you responded to is saying "There's no racism, and there's no misogyny."

 
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Nugget said:
I think I'm trying to calibrate.  I've seen posts that suggest that single mothers are the cause of many of the problems in the country - if these women would have some sexual self control we would have better results.  Or maybe there is another term I should be using.  When women are expected to bake cakes for the Christmas party and guys are supposed to bring the cooler.  When women just need to relax because of locker room talk and stop being high maintenance.  

Again, maybe I'm just being too sensitive, but it would feel more wrong not at least bringing the issue up.  
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For "calibrate", do you mean you're trying to see what the board thinks? A poll is an excellent way to do that.  

Much better would be to quote the specific posts you're referencing. The quote function makes that easy to do. 

I personally don't see very much of the kind of talk here you're referencing. But I also only see a tiny fraction of what's posted. That's why a quote is so helpful. Please do that.

Are are you talking about your real life experiences where you're hearing these things?

 
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When AOC and Tucker Carlson are the sources of information, I honestly tune out.  They are both on the far extreme of either side and I'm not giving them any listen. Sorry.

 
Joe Bryant said:
I think it's important we are clear on words. And on what people say. Especially when we're talking about the said. 

Nobody here, including the poster you responded to is saying "There's no racism, and there's no misogyny."
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I know what he said, and I didn't change the meaning of what he said. 

He said neither is any kind of a problem, for the most part. 

 
Nugget said:
I think I'm trying to calibrate.  I've seen posts that suggest that single mothers are the cause of many of the problems in the country - if these women would have some sexual self control we would have better results.  Or maybe there is another term I should be using.  When women are expected to bake cakes for the Christmas party and guys are supposed to bring the cooler.  When women just need to relax because of locker room talk and stop being high maintenance.  

Again, maybe I'm just being too sensitive, but it would feel more wrong not at least bringing the issue up.  
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What if I bake the cakes and bring the cooler because my wife takes twice as long to get ready for a party as I do? 

Like literally twice as long if I timed it.

Is that ok to point out how efficient we have decided to be? Or should I pretend she gets ready just as fast and that she could definitely lift a cooler filled with beer and ice just as easily as me? 

 
Nugget said:
Yes/No for the below?

"I only bought those from you because you are a woman".

"Sweetheart, let me explain to you how this works"
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My serious answer is that depends on the person and context.

I can't comment on the first one because I have a hard time imagining how that would come up in conversation.  It reads like a really weird thing to say.

For the second one, it depends.  When I'm being sharply critical of a female driver, for example, I'll often say something like "Your accelerator is the pedal on your right, honey -- time to find it."  If this exact same comment were directed at a male driver (and it frequently is), it would read more like "Your accelerator is the pedal on your right, buddy -- time to use it."  Is there any necessary reason for me to use gendered language here?  Not really, but I don't even know how I would recast either of these sentences to get rid of that, and I don't feel any need to try.  In both cases, I'm criticizing the intelligence, moral worth, and general humanity of people who sit too long at green lights not because of their sex but because they suck at driving.

On the other hand, if my secretary messed up an Excel spreadsheet and I prefaced my coaching with "Sweetheart, let me explain to you how Microsoft Office works" I would expect a phone call from HR.   

 
Nugget said:
 I've seen posts that suggest that single mothers are the cause of many of the problems in the country - if these women would have some sexual self control we would have better results. 
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The data on this is clear.  Generally, in the US, if you can get a HS education and avoid becoming a parent very young your odds in the US of being in poverty go to like 3%.  Now it seems you have intuited both blame and the solution to this particular problem.  I have never heard blame laid on single mothers and the solution is generally going to be effective birth control rather than some mythical charge that women need self control.

 
Wildcat said:
When AOC and Tucker Carlson are the sources of information, I honestly tune out.  They are both on the far extreme of either side and I'm not giving them any listen. Sorry.
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I tune out ALL talking heads on 24 hour news stations.  Every single one, with no exceptions.   They are all bad.

 
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