Missing Element-Brett Favre & The Packers (1 Viewer)

[Stinger Ray]

Can you show me the information on how the lack of leadership is not effecting the team?

Well, now you're assuming as fact what hasn't yet been established as fact: that there is a lack of leadership on this team.

Can you really sit here and tell us you don't think there is a lack of leadership on the Packers this year.I'll sit back and wait for the gem you will come up with.

Yes.

That sums it up. You may one of just a few people that know anything about football to claim you don't think there is a lack of leadership on the Packers this year.That either makes you a fisherman or ignorant.

I'm done with you and I wish you the best of luck on making it through the holidays without hurting yourself.

 

[Phase of the Game]

Can you show me the information on how the lack of leadership is not effecting the team?

Well, now you're assuming as fact what hasn't yet been established as fact: that there is a lack of leadership on this team.

Can you really sit here and tell us you don't think there is a lack of leadership on the Packers this year.

Yes.

WOW!

 

[JamesTheScot]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

There have bee quotes in here by Jets players acknowledging what Favre has done to elevate their play(and you dismiss them). It was discussed this morning on ESPN. Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers has stated publicly the Packers are missing Favre's leadership and you try to fall back on some lame attempt like this. The team is missing leadership and EVERYONE knows it. Stop trying this silly attempt to point out single players because all you will do is spin and spin again in your attempts to diminish what Favre meant to the Packers. You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

Whoa, scratch that.For evidence that players are now missing Favre's leadership...we now have Stinger Ray's "Cause Wayne Larrivee said so."

Well, I guess that settles it. All you needed to do was find someone else to espouse the same unsupported position without citing any evidence what so ever.

I guess for evidence that communism is a good idea, you could just say "Cause Joseph Stalin said so." Who knows communism better than Joseph Stalin.

Instead of evidence, we get a celebrity endorsement. I think Ricardo Montalban has a sweet Chrysler Cordoba over in the corner to sell you...with supple corinthian leather.

 

[JamesTheScot]

You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

Well, we're almost there. At least you recognize that it's an intangible and difficult to measure......but yet its so obvious to everyone what a huge impact it's having this season.Wow, the smell of the irony is overpowering in your post.No, wait, that's fallacious reasoning. Irony would smell more intentional. My bad.

 

[zDragon]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

There have bee quotes in here by Jets players acknowledging what Favre has done to elevate their play(and you dismiss them). It was discussed this morning on ESPN. Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers has stated publicly the Packers are missing Favre's leadership and you try to fall back on some lame attempt like this. The team is missing leadership and EVERYONE knows it. Stop trying this silly attempt to point out single players because all you will do is spin and spin again in your attempts to diminish what Favre meant to the Packers. You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

Whoa, scratch that.For evidence that players are now missing Favre's leadership...we now have Stinger Ray's "Cause Wayne Larrivee said so."

Well, I guess that settles it. All you needed to do was find someone else to espouse the same unsupported position without citing any evidence what so ever.

I guess for evidence that communism is a good idea, you could just say "Cause Joseph Stalin said so." Who knows communism better than Joseph Stalin.

Instead of evidence, we get a celebrity endorsement. I think Ricardo Montalban has a sweet Chrysler Cordoba over in the corner to sell you...with supple corinthian leather.

A. Rodgers

"I think there is a transition period," Rodgers said of the Favre era. "I think guys need to give more of themselves. They need to realize there's an opportunity to be a leader. Before, there might not have been that opportunity (because of Favre). It's not about one person; it's about everybody in here picking up the slack."

Seems to indicate that the QB of the Packers believes thier is a lack of Leadership on the team and that everyone on the team needs to step up and shoulder their share of the void. You keep asking for evidence why don't you provide evidence for you side of the argument?

 

[JamesTheScot]

"He was a leader to us also,He's Brett Favre. That's saying enough right there. We tried to play at his level. We did that for the most part. I don't know if there's a void (now). We've just got to adapt. He's not here anymore, 'OK, we have to find a way to win.' "

"I think one thing you have to understand, Brett never spoke,He was never one of those guys who was verbal. He just played. That's how he led. I think that's how some guys think that's their leadership. That was 4. He never said anything to guys. He just went out there and played. Guys, they looked at it and said that's how they're going to perform."

Wow, he doesn't know if there's a void now. Shouldn't he? Wayne L. knows. How can a player on the team not know if there's a drop-off or not? Wouldn't he know if he and his team mates weren't trying as hard?That blue part sounds kinda like Barry Sanders doesn't it? But I thought Barry wasn't vocal enough to be a strong leader. He just went out there and played instead of being a leader.

Now I'm even less sure of what people mean by being a leader.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

but yet its so obvious to everyone what a huge impact it's having this season.

Yes it is. You really look like a fool as you continue in this thread. Keep it up...its amusing.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

"He was a leader to us also,He's Brett Favre. That's saying enough right there. We tried to play at his level. We did that for the most part. I don't know if there's a void (now). We've just got to adapt. He's not here anymore, 'OK, we have to find a way to win.' "

"I think one thing you have to understand, Brett never spoke,He was never one of those guys who was verbal. He just played. That's how he led. I think that's how some guys think that's their leadership. That was 4. He never said anything to guys. He just went out there and played. Guys, they looked at it and said that's how they're going to perform."

Now I'm even less sure of what people mean by being a leader.

This is not a surprise.

 

[JamesTheScot]

Everything points to the difference Favre made in the level of play for the packers. You are just ignoring it.

And therein lies the fallacy.The QB that replaced Favre is playing as well as Favre did but yet the wins aren't stacking up.You are assuming that Favre's leadership is making the difference despite no evidence of any causal connection between the two.And sometime long ago and black cat walked across someone's path and something bad happened to them. Well, it had to be the black cat. Yesterday was fine and there was no black cat in the path yesterday.Brilliant. "Everything points to the difference Favre made" actually means "Nothing points to the difference Favre made, but I don't have any better explanation so I'm going with 'Favre's gone, so that must be it'.

 

[JamesTheScot]

"The most meaningful measure of Favre's worth, however, has to be the profound impact he has had upon the Packers' artistic fortunes while developing into the league's premier field general" --Ron WolfI like this one from here about last season...http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/tim_layden/11/21/favre/1.html"And at the core of the Packers' resurgence is the melding of generations, specifically the melding of Favre and just about everybody else."

Doing word search for "leadership"... ... ... ... ...Results found: 0You all should really read these quotes for content after you find them.Melding? Impact on artistic fortunes?

 

[Ookie Pringle]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

:( There have bee quotes in here by Jets players acknowledging what Favre has done to elevate their play(and you dismiss them). It was discussed this morning on ESPN. Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers has stated publicly the Packers are missing Favre's leadership and you try to fall back on some lame attempt like this. The team is missing leadership and EVERYONE knows it. Stop trying this silly attempt to point out single players because all you will do is spin and spin again in your attempts to diminish what Favre meant to the Packers. You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

Whoa, scratch that.For evidence that players are now missing Favre's leadership...we now have Stinger Ray's "Cause Wayne Larrivee said so."

Well, I guess that settles it. All you needed to do was find someone else to espouse the same unsupported position without citing any evidence what so ever.

I guess for evidence that communism is a good idea, you could just say "Cause Joseph Stalin said so." Who knows communism better than Joseph Stalin.

Instead of evidence, we get a celebrity endorsement. I think Ricardo Montalban has a sweet Chrysler Cordoba over in the corner to sell you...with supple corinthian leather.

You have to be fishing. Wayne Larrivee has covered the Packers for years doing their radio and so did the author of the article. Not to mention other NFL experts that state the Packers miss Favre's leadership yet we are all supposed to believe James The Scot over these experts. You are a fool, Jimmy.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Everything points to the difference Favre made in the level of play for the packers. You are just ignoring it.

The QB that replaced Favre is playing as well as Favre did but yet the wins aren't stacking up.You are assuming that Favre's leadership is making the difference despite no evidence of any causal connection between the two.

The QB that replaced Favre has yet to win a game in crunch time for Packers. Brett Favre did that in his first game with the Packers. :(

 

[Phase of the Game]

"The most meaningful measure of Favre's worth, however, has to be the profound impact he has had upon the Packers' artistic fortunes while developing into the league's premier field general" --Ron WolfI like this one from here about last season...http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/tim_layden/11/21/favre/1.html"And at the core of the Packers' resurgence is the melding of generations, specifically the melding of Favre and just about everybody else."

Doing word search for "leadership"... ... ... ... ...Results found: 0You all should really read these quotes for content after you find them.Melding? Impact on artistic fortunes?

Good for you...I didn't think you would even know how to do a word search. :(

 

[Phase of the Game]

Everything points to the difference Favre made in the level of play for the packers. You are just ignoring it.

And therein lies the fallacy.The QB that replaced Favre is playing as well as Favre did but yet the wins aren't stacking up.You are assuming that Favre's leadership is making the difference despite no evidence of any causal connection between the two.And sometime long ago and black cat walked across someone's path and something bad happened to them. Well, it had to be the black cat. Yesterday was fine and there was no black cat in the path yesterday.Brilliant. "Everything points to the difference Favre made" actually means "Nothing points to the difference Favre made, but I don't have any better explanation so I'm going with 'Favre's gone, so that must be it'.

:(

 

[JamesTheScot]

Your arguement about finding players playing harder or not ignores the big picture and the concept of leadership which you fail to grasp. So you bring out silly examples that in your delusional world make sense to you.

Also, your reality of what Favre has done and what you give him credit for are 2 completely different things. A concept that you cannot seem to grasp. So instead, you lie, spin and twist what I say to keep arguing....then whine we you get teased about how much you post.

For fun I wanted to post some of my favorite Jets quotes.

A quote from Leon Washington....

"When you have Brett Favre coming into the huddle, it makes everybody else in the huddle step their games up"

Jerico Cotchery

"It is very special to have a guy like that step into your huddle"

Eric Mangini

" I think Brett just . . . he instills confidence in the group ... There's a sense of ease when he has the ball. You feel he's going to get it to the right place."

From another player

"I didn't see any nervousness on his face; I saw a quiet confidence on his face, so to speak. When he stepped into the huddle, we knew we were going to be able to get it done because that's the way he's been this entire year."

http://www.daylife.com/quote/0fav1s56wI8vz

Great...more quotes completely irrelevant to the Green Bay Packers.

"The most meaningful measure of Favre's worth, however, has to be the profound impact he has had upon the Packers' artistic fortunes while developing into the league's premier field general" --Ron WolfI like this one from here about last season...http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/tim_layden/11/21/favre/1.html

"And at the core of the Packers' resurgence is the melding of generations, specifically the melding of Favre and just about everybody else."

THanks for providing more quotes that he is and was a great leader.Umm...but the problem is, I have yet to deny this (despite your spin).

Umm...but the problem is you don't deny he's a great leader yet we get this nonsense from you..."But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Did it ever occur to you that the same reason Rodgers's team mates wouldn't come out and say he's not the leader would be the same motivation the Jet's players would have to say nice things about Favre...expecially when the question posed to them kinda asks for that kind of response.All Jericho did was say Favre was special. Well, he's in the HOF on the first ballot, I can't disagree with that nugget.

Mangini thinks Brett instills confidence because he's going to get the ball to the right place? That's except for those INT's this year, I guess. No, this isn't coach-speak.

"We knew we were going to be able to get it done because that's the way he's been this entire year." I guess, except when we didn't get it done.

Leon says that Favre raises the level of play for those around him. That's not bad. Of course, I'd love to have had the reporter ask him why he wasn't playing as hard before under Pennington. Anyone wonder how he'd respond to that? I'd expect a backpeddle at that point. But I'm just guessing.

 

[Phase of the Game]

Your arguement about finding players playing harder or not ignores the big picture and the concept of leadership which you fail to grasp. So you bring out silly examples that in your delusional world make sense to you.

Also, your reality of what Favre has done and what you give him credit for are 2 completely different things. A concept that you cannot seem to grasp. So instead, you lie, spin and twist what I say to keep arguing....then whine we you get teased about how much you post.

For fun I wanted to post some of my favorite Jets quotes.

A quote from Leon Washington....

"When you have Brett Favre coming into the huddle, it makes everybody else in the huddle step their games up"

Jerico Cotchery

"It is very special to have a guy like that step into your huddle"

Eric Mangini

" I think Brett just . . . he instills confidence in the group ... There's a sense of ease when he has the ball. You feel he's going to get it to the right place."

From another player

"I didn't see any nervousness on his face; I saw a quiet confidence on his face, so to speak. When he stepped into the huddle, we knew we were going to be able to get it done because that's the way he's been this entire year."

http://www.daylife.com/quote/0fav1s56wI8vz

Great...more quotes completely irrelevant to the Green Bay Packers.

"The most meaningful measure of Favre's worth, however, has to be the profound impact he has had upon the Packers' artistic fortunes while developing into the league's premier field general" --Ron WolfI like this one from here about last season...http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/tim_layden/11/21/favre/1.html

"And at the core of the Packers' resurgence is the melding of generations, specifically the melding of Favre and just about everybody else."

THanks for providing more quotes that he is and was a great leader.Umm...but the problem is, I have yet to deny this (despite your spin).

Umm...but the problem is you don't deny he's a great leader yet we get this nonsense from you..."But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Did it ever occur to you that the same reason Rodgers's team mates wouldn't come out and say he's not the leader would be the same motivation the Jet's players would have to say nice things about Favre...expecially when the question posed to them kinda asks for that kind of response.All Jericho did was say Favre was special. Well, he's in the HOF on the first ballot, I can't disagree with that nugget.

Mangini thinks Brett instills confidence because he's going to get the ball to the right place? That's except for those INT's this year, I guess. No, this isn't coach-speak.

"We knew we were going to be able to get it done because that's the way he's been this entire year." I guess, except when we didn't get it done.

Leon says that Favre raises the level of play for those around him. That's not bad. Of course, I'd love to have had the reporter ask him why he wasn't playing as hard before under Pennington. Anyone wonder how he'd respond to that? I'd expect a backpeddle at that point. But I'm just guessing.

 

[Phase of the Game]

Here is another quote that I like....

“If you’re not giving it 100 percent, he’s going to remind you,” Colledge said. “And when he needs you to make a play, he’s going to let you know. You respect that, and it drives you to want to be better. I mean, I don’t want to be the guy that gets Brett hurt. I don’t even want to be the guy that gets Brett touched. So it pushes me every day to be a better offensive lineman.”

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21016402/page/2/

But of course sho and Jimmy want us to believe that players give 100% no matter who the QB is.

 

[Phase of the Game]

Here is another one that even points out the QB and the defense.

"I'm optimistic. Who isn't?" Namath said. "This is the most exciting beginning of a season we've had in some time. This is a tremendous lift in terms of expectations and excitement."

Namath was surrounded by many of his former teammates, some of whom believe Favre compares favorably to their old quarterback. Interestingly, they didn't mention arm strength. They spoke mostly about intangibles, specifically leadership.

"Joe was the guy who could make things happen; he commanded respect," said Richard Caster, the recipient of three touchdown passes that memorable day in '72. "I haven't been in Brett's huddle, but from what I can see, he's the team leader and everybody follows him. That's what Joe had. We looked to him. When we were in the huddle, all eyes were on Joe."

Caster loved the acquisition of Favre because "the team really needed something to bring some life to it. We had suffered with the established format for a number of years. Chad (Pennington) did what he was doing as a quarterback. The team just didn't want to kick it into the next gear. This is perfect. Getting Brett was a great move. He's the kind of excitement New York needs right now."

Former All-AFL linebacker Larry Grantham, a member of the Super Bowl-winning 1968 team, said quarterbacks of Namath and Favre's caliber also can inspire the defense.

"As a defensive player, when we got the ball back for Joe, we knew he was going to make something happen," said Grantham, who is battling cancer but flew up from Memphis out of loyalty to Namath. "It's the same with Brett. They have that ability."

"Unreal," former tackle Dave Herman, another member of the '68 Jets, said of Favre's six-touchdown game. "What I'm hoping, what I think he brings to the team, is the confidence factor. Natural leadership, that's what Joe had."

There's no denying that Favre has created excitement. When it was suggested to Namath that it hasn't been this way since his heyday, he laughed.

"Yeah, and the Triborough Bridge was 25 cents," he said. "It was a little different back then."

Joe Namath certainly thinks Brett Favre, if he can get some help from teammates, can lead Jets to a championship.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football...ith_broadw.html

 

[JamesTheScot]

Read through the thread. There is a quote from driver that addresses this. He said Brett led by actions versus talking. I've seen other players say the same thing.

You mean like Barry Sanders? No, wait, there was that article talking about how Barry wasn't a great leader and Brett was.Well, both played exceptionally well but neither was very vocal.Where do you stand on Barry Sanders's leadership?

 

[JamesTheScot]

The 5-9 record.Go ask Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers, that went on record stating the same thing. It is sad that you don't think the Packers have missed Favre's leadership this year. Either you are fishing or ignorant.

Okay, let me clear something up for you.The 5-9 record is the result, again, the result, of the play on the field. The question is how, again, how, Favre's leadership would affect play on the field.Wayne Larrivee, the sportcaster?Any other appeals to authority or celebrity you want to make? How does Wayne think Favre's leadership would be making a difference on the field?What, you never asked him? Your just accepting what he says without ever pausing to consider if it's rational or well-reasoned? I think they make commercials for people like you. Did you know that if you eat Chunky Soup, you are LaDanian Tomlinson? Seriously, buy a can and then go look in the mirror.

 

[JamesTheScot]

If you simply ignore the quotes of people who played with Favre. Otherwise you should see that he meant a lot to his previous team and now brings that to the new team.

It's really obvious in my opinion.

Of course it is. But what about Favre's opinion on leaderhsip? In case you missed it...or are just trying to skate by without answering it...This is what Favre says about it:

To get them to raise their level of play, you've got to set an example by

1) doing it the right way

2) showing up

3) being prepared

4) practice everyday

5) practice hard

6) study

7) never blame someone else

Does Rodgers do whatever it is the right way? Does Rodgers not show up? Does Rodgers not prepare? Does Rodger's not practice everyday? Does Rodgers not practice hard? Does Rodgers not study? Does Rodgers blame someone else?

So what from this list is Rodgers not doing that Favre did that is keeping his teammates from rasing their level of play?

Please don't dodge this question! Favre was so clear and precise, I can't imagine this is that hard to answer.

 

[JamesTheScot]

Here is another quote that I like....

“If you’re not giving it 100 percent, he’s going to remind you,” Colledge said. “And when he needs you to make a play, he’s going to let you know. You respect that, and it drives you to want to be better. I mean, I don’t want to be the guy that gets Brett hurt. I don’t even want to be the guy that gets Brett touched. So it pushes me every day to be a better offensive lineman.”

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21016402/page/2/

But of course sho and Jimmy want us to believe that players give 100% no matter who the QB is.

So someone asked this lineman who he didn't block as hard for? See how that works? That takes it out of the feel-good, cliche, only speak well of someone. If you want to get to the truth, watch a cross-examination rather than a "Tell about your postive experiences with <player x> piece".But, since you may have missed it, I've been asking people to measure Rodgers by Favre's self-stated leadership criteria. Since this is about Rodgers too. I think you posted this so surely you'll play along.

To get them to raise their level of play, you've got to set an example by

1) doing it the right way

2) showing up

3) being prepared

4) practice everyday

5) practice hard

6) study

7) never blame someone else <other than TT, I guess>

So that's what Favre thinks makes a leader. And he should know, right?

So does Rodgers do whatever it is the right way? Does Rodgers not show up? Does Rodgers not prepare? Does Rodgers not practice everyday? Does Rodgers not practice hard? Does Rodgers not study? Does Rodgers blame someone else?

So what from this list is Rodgers not doing that Favre did that is keeping his teammates from rasing their level of play?

Please don't dodge this question! Favre was so clear and precise, I can't imagine this is that hard to answer given how obvious it all is.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

The 5-9 record.Go ask Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers, that went on record stating the same thing. It is sad that you don't think the Packers have missed Favre's leadership this year. Either you are fishing or ignorant.

Okay, let me clear something up for you.The 5-9 record is the result, again, the result, of the play on the field. The question is how, again, how, Favre's leadership would affect play on the field.Wayne Larrivee, the sportcaster?Any other appeals to authority or celebrity you want to make? How does Wayne think Favre's leadership would be making a difference on the field?What, you never asked him? Your just accepting what he says without ever pausing to consider if it's rational or well-reasoned? I think they make commercials for people like you. Did you know that if you eat Chunky Soup, you are LaDanian Tomlinson? Seriously, buy a can and then go look in the mirror.

I think they make special medications that may help you.

 

[JamesTheScot]

Your arguement about finding players playing harder or not ignores the big picture and the concept of leadership which you fail to grasp. So you bring out silly examples that in your delusional world make sense to you.

Also, your reality of what Favre has done and what you give him credit for are 2 completely different things. A concept that you cannot seem to grasp. So instead, you lie, spin and twist what I say to keep arguing....then whine we you get teased about how much you post.

For fun I wanted to post some of my favorite Jets quotes.

A quote from Leon Washington....

"When you have Brett Favre coming into the huddle, it makes everybody else in the huddle step their games up"

Jerico Cotchery

"It is very special to have a guy like that step into your huddle"

Eric Mangini

" I think Brett just . . . he instills confidence in the group ... There's a sense of ease when he has the ball. You feel he's going to get it to the right place."

From another player

"I didn't see any nervousness on his face; I saw a quiet confidence on his face, so to speak. When he stepped into the huddle, we knew we were going to be able to get it done because that's the way he's been this entire year."

http://www.daylife.com/quote/0fav1s56wI8vz

Great...more quotes completely irrelevant to the Green Bay Packers.

"The most meaningful measure of Favre's worth, however, has to be the profound impact he has had upon the Packers' artistic fortunes while developing into the league's premier field general" --Ron WolfI like this one from here about last season...http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/tim_layden/11/21/favre/1.html

"And at the core of the Packers' resurgence is the melding of generations, specifically the melding of Favre and just about everybody else."

THanks for providing more quotes that he is and was a great leader.Umm...but the problem is, I have yet to deny this (despite your spin).

Umm...but the problem is you don't deny he's a great leader yet we get this nonsense from you..."But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Did it ever occur to you that the same reason Rodgers's team mates wouldn't come out and say he's not the leader would be the same motivation the Jet's players would have to say nice things about Favre...expecially when the question posed to them kinda asks for that kind of response.All Jericho did was say Favre was special. Well, he's in the HOF on the first ballot, I can't disagree with that nugget.

Mangini thinks Brett instills confidence because he's going to get the ball to the right place? That's except for those INT's this year, I guess. No, this isn't coach-speak.

"We knew we were going to be able to get it done because that's the way he's been this entire year." I guess, except when we didn't get it done.

Leon says that Favre raises the level of play for those around him. That's not bad. Of course, I'd love to have had the reporter ask him why he wasn't playing as hard before under Pennington. Anyone wonder how he'd respond to that? I'd expect a backpeddle at that point. But I'm just guessing.

I'll ask it another way so maybe it will personalize a little more for you.What things in life do you really care about achieving? Toss some goals out there.

Which of these things do you not give your best effort on?

But you don't get a pass on my last post, BTW.

 

[JamesTheScot]

The 5-9 record.

Go ask Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers, that went on record stating the same thing. It is sad that you don't think the Packers have missed Favre's leadership this year. Either you are fishing or ignorant.

Okay, let me clear something up for you.The 5-9 record is the result, again, the result, of the play on the field. The question is how, again, how, Favre's leadership would affect play on the field.

Wayne Larrivee, the sportcaster?

Any other appeals to authority or celebrity you want to make? How does Wayne think Favre's leadership would be making a difference on the field?

What, you never asked him? Your just accepting what he says without ever pausing to consider if it's rational or well-reasoned?

I think they make commercials for people like you. Did you know that if you eat Chunky Soup, you are LaDanian Tomlinson? Seriously, buy a can and then go look in the mirror.

I think they make special medications that may help you.

And they offer plenty of logic classes that may help you.Care to try this on for size?

To get them to raise their level of play, you've got to set an example by

1) doing it the right way

2) showing up

3) being prepared

4) practice everyday

5) practice hard

6) study

7) never blame someone else

The above is that Favre thinks makes a good leader. And he should know, right?

So doesn't Rodgers do things the right way? Does Rodgers not show up? Does Rodgers not prepare? Does Rodger's not practice everyday? Does Rodgers not practice hard? Does Rodgers not study? Does Rodgers blame someone else?

So what from this list is Rodgers not doing that Favre did that is keeping his teammates from rasing their level of play?

Please don't dodge this question! Favre was so clear and precise, I can't imagine this is that hard to answer.

 

[JamesTheScot]

Everything points to the difference Favre made in the level of play for the packers. You are just ignoring it.

And therein lies the fallacy.The QB that replaced Favre is playing as well as Favre did but yet the wins aren't stacking up.You are assuming that Favre's leadership is making the difference despite no evidence of any causal connection between the two.And sometime long ago and black cat walked across someone's path and something bad happened to them. Well, it had to be the black cat. Yesterday was fine and there was no black cat in the path yesterday.Brilliant. "Everything points to the difference Favre made" actually means "Nothing points to the difference Favre made, but I don't have any better explanation so I'm going with 'Favre's gone, so that must be it'.

I stopped laughing when I realized you actually believe what you're saying. The age of reason is dead.

 

[Phase of the Game]

Everything points to the difference Favre made in the level of play for the packers. You are just ignoring it.

And therein lies the fallacy.The QB that replaced Favre is playing as well as Favre did but yet the wins aren't stacking up.You are assuming that Favre's leadership is making the difference despite no evidence of any causal connection between the two.And sometime long ago and black cat walked across someone's path and something bad happened to them. Well, it had to be the black cat. Yesterday was fine and there was no black cat in the path yesterday.Brilliant. "Everything points to the difference Favre made" actually means "Nothing points to the difference Favre made, but I don't have any better explanation so I'm going with 'Favre's gone, so that must be it'.

The age of reason is dead.

It was never alive for you.

 

[JamesTheScot]

You keep asking for evidence why don't you provide evidence for you side of the argument?

Sure. But first tell me what you think my side of the argument is, as clearly and concisely as you can. I'll tell you how right or wrong you are about it. Once we can agree on what my position actually is, I'll take a stab at it. I don't want to end up like Sho where I spend 50 posts explaining over and over to you how my position is not what you accuse me of and you come back later and accuse me of that same position that I never took to begin with. So I'm giving you the chance first to define my position for me. We should be able to knock this preliminary part out in a response or two.

 

[JamesTheScot]

Everything points to the difference Favre made in the level of play for the packers. You are just ignoring it.

And therein lies the fallacy.The QB that replaced Favre is playing as well as Favre did but yet the wins aren't stacking up.You are assuming that Favre's leadership is making the difference despite no evidence of any causal connection between the two.And sometime long ago and black cat walked across someone's path and something bad happened to them. Well, it had to be the black cat. Yesterday was fine and there was no black cat in the path yesterday.Brilliant. "Everything points to the difference Favre made" actually means "Nothing points to the difference Favre made, but I don't have any better explanation so I'm going with 'Favre's gone, so that must be it'.

The age of reason is dead.

It was never alive for you.

That was actually a nice quip in reply! Well done, sir. But you are going to go through the Favre list, right?

 

[sho nuff]

Then your not seeing the whole picture and that's to bad. If the Rodgers quotes don't make it clear then no need arguing the fact. Your just not going to see the light.You your self said you diminish him on purpose. So not sure why anyone would whine about it. Just the fact that you are doing it makes me wonder if your really a packers fan. Other than wondering why you would do that to your living legend I could care less.

I see the whole picture...the few of you are grasping at straws in order the argue with me.Rodgers quotes say nothing about guys not playing harder.Saying they have to step up and be leaders too and help fill the void is not even close to what you are claiming it to mean.Arguing a fact is one thing...arguing your opinion of what Rodgers was saying and having it not be close to my argument is another.I said I diminish him on purpose? Umm...link to that?Again...no more lies or spin...just me saying what you just claimed.

Maybe the small fragment you have zoomed in.Even if Rodgers quote did say it directly you would deny it. It's clear as day to those of us who see the whole picture.What void are they filling? What was the CB talking about when he made his statement? How bout Driver saying he tried to play as hard as Brett? It's really obvius.Columns have been posted that agree with what I'm saying, the packs record states it, the drop in offensive and defensive production states it. Your just not seeing it.Sorry.

Even if he said it, i would deny it?Hah.The void in leadership. Driver tried to play as hard as Brett...great. What does that have to do with how hard he is playing for Rodgers? Thats the point. You have nothing and it is very obvious you don't get it.The funny thing is, I could post. Favre is a great leader but it would not be enough for this team.And what do we get out of that...we get multiple people saying I am bashing Favre, ignoring his leadership and so on.I have agreed with most of what you are saying. I have disagreed that the team is not playing hard for Rodgers and I have disagreed that the difference in leadership from Favre to Rodgers is not enough to make this team a championship caliber team. The rest is all the spin of a few posters who are the usual ones who do such things when trying to discuss anything with me.And where is the link to me saying I diminish him on purpose. Back up your accusation, or admit you were full of it.

I do get it your blind and asking everyone to prove what's obvious. The thing is there's no empirical data to prove it.Tell you what why don't you prove the Team is playing just as hard for Rodgers as Farve. Give me some good data on this. Alllrighttty then.Record with out him so far proves he is. Prove to me otherwise or as you would say. Just admit your full of it.That's already been posted over and over by another posetr but you back tracked it to mean something else with a qualification of "as people think" or some such. So I do not feel a need to do it. If your so inclined prove to me your posts are not made to diminish Favre.

Blind.Why should I prove something because you all can't prove your side?Such a great argument you make. Its obvious (so much so that it can't be proven) so you prove your side as well.Too funny and a typical tactic when someone cannot prove the BS they have been spewing.Record without him proves guys played harder for him than they do for Rodgers?Ok, so I will put you down in the camp of Ryan Grant and John Kuhn were not playing hard when they tried to get that key first down last week. How about that?Yes, that is an example of spin...and its just one play. Its done for effect.IMO...guys are still trying hard regardless of who is playing QB. Greg Jennings is playing for the team and for his contract. Driver is driven by more than just who is throwing him the ball. Does anyone actually think he is giving less effort because its not Brett Favre out there? Come on. The guy is a freakin pro's pro. He gives everything he has each week. He did with Favre, and IMO he has done it with Rodgers too.No, its never been posted by another poster that I admited I diminish him on purpose. You made a false accusation that you cannot back up and are making excuses. So...post the link, or admit you are full of it...its that easy. Or just don't make accusations.The rest of your post asking me to prove something like that is just crap and you know it...Its ridiculous...you post a lie...then fail to back it up when you are called on it. Too freakin funny.

I've presented my side with information from various players etc, records, facts, and data. You seem to disagree yet have not provided data. So I'm now asking you for your side. Prove to me your right.Should be easy right.

Prove your side was in response to you wanting me to prove I did not diminish Favre.You claimed I admitted it...that should be easy for you to prove. Link me to a post where I admit I diminish Favre. Its that simple.You are really having a hard time with context aren't you.Again, don't make accusations that you can't back up.As for the rest.You posted quotes that have nothing to do with what I have disagreed with...in fact, you posted quotes to things I have already admitted.

 

[sho nuff]

Then your not seeing the whole picture and that's to bad. If the Rodgers quotes don't make it clear then no need arguing the fact. Your just not going to see the light.You your self said you diminish him on purpose. So not sure why anyone would whine about it. Just the fact that you are doing it makes me wonder if your really a packers fan. Other than wondering why you would do that to your living legend I could care less.

I see the whole picture...the few of you are grasping at straws in order the argue with me.Rodgers quotes say nothing about guys not playing harder.Saying they have to step up and be leaders too and help fill the void is not even close to what you are claiming it to mean.Arguing a fact is one thing...arguing your opinion of what Rodgers was saying and having it not be close to my argument is another.I said I diminish him on purpose? Umm...link to that?Again...no more lies or spin...just me saying what you just claimed.

Maybe the small fragment you have zoomed in.Even if Rodgers quote did say it directly you would deny it. It's clear as day to those of us who see the whole picture.What void are they filling? What was the CB talking about when he made his statement? How bout Driver saying he tried to play as hard as Brett? It's really obvius.Columns have been posted that agree with what I'm saying, the packs record states it, the drop in offensive and defensive production states it. Your just not seeing it.Sorry.

Even if he said it, i would deny it?Hah.The void in leadership. Driver tried to play as hard as Brett...great. What does that have to do with how hard he is playing for Rodgers? Thats the point. You have nothing and it is very obvious you don't get it.The funny thing is, I could post. Favre is a great leader but it would not be enough for this team.And what do we get out of that...we get multiple people saying I am bashing Favre, ignoring his leadership and so on.I have agreed with most of what you are saying. I have disagreed that the team is not playing hard for Rodgers and I have disagreed that the difference in leadership from Favre to Rodgers is not enough to make this team a championship caliber team. The rest is all the spin of a few posters who are the usual ones who do such things when trying to discuss anything with me.And where is the link to me saying I diminish him on purpose. Back up your accusation, or admit you were full of it.

I do get it your blind and asking everyone to prove what's obvious. The thing is there's no empirical data to prove it.Tell you what why don't you prove the Team is playing just as hard for Rodgers as Farve. Give me some good data on this. Alllrighttty then.Record with out him so far proves he is. Prove to me otherwise or as you would say. Just admit your full of it.That's already been posted over and over by another posetr but you back tracked it to mean something else with a qualification of "as people think" or some such. So I do not feel a need to do it. If your so inclined prove to me your posts are not made to diminish Favre.

Ok, so I will put you down in the camp of Ryan Grant and John Kuhn were not playing hard when they tried to get that key first down last week. How about that?Yes, that is an example of spin...and its just one play. Its done for effect.

This is where you look silly.1. You claim you never spin.2. You get no effect by posting something like that other than you are a blind homer and will spin every chance you get. You seem to think one play is somehow making your point. IT ISN'T!

1. No, I don't claim I never spin. I deny it when you accuse me of spin when there is none.2. I get the effect...there are plenty of plays out there that show guys trying their ### off out there. Its not just about one play...there are plenty of them.The one play is an example of why some of the points being made by those arguing against me are full of it.So again...since none of you have been able to actually answer the question.Were those players not trying hard?Was Driver not trying as hard this year?Jennings?Kampman?

 

[Michael Fox Fan]

I hope that this thread continues tomorrow.

 

[sho nuff]

Here is another quote that I like....

“If you’re not giving it 100 percent, he’s going to remind you,” Colledge said. “And when he needs you to make a play, he’s going to let you know. You respect that, and it drives you to want to be better. I mean, I don’t want to be the guy that gets Brett hurt. I don’t even want to be the guy that gets Brett touched. So it pushes me every day to be a better offensive lineman.”

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21016402/page/2/

But of course sho and Jimmy want us to believe that players give 100% no matter who the QB is.

No, I want you to believe that players are still playing as hard as they did last year...even without Brett around.Yes, he makes you want to be better. Does it mean you really play harder or better? No.

Does that quote say they don't want to do better for Rodgers too? No.

Kind of my point. but you still don't understand that.

 

[zDragon]

"He was a leader to us also,He's Brett Favre. That's saying enough right there. We tried to play at his level. We did that for the most part. I don't know if there's a void (now). We've just got to adapt. He's not here anymore, 'OK, we have to find a way to win.' "

"I think one thing you have to understand, Brett never spoke,He was never one of those guys who was verbal. He just played. That's how he led. I think that's how some guys think that's their leadership. That was 4. He never said anything to guys. He just went out there and played. Guys, they looked at it and said that's how they're going to perform."

Wow, he doesn't know if there's a void now. Shouldn't he? Wayne L. knows. How can a player on the team not know if there's a drop-off or not? Wouldn't he know if he and his team mates weren't trying as hard?That blue part sounds kinda like Barry Sanders doesn't it? But I thought Barry wasn't vocal enough to be a strong leader. He just went out there and played instead of being a leader.

Now I'm even less sure of what people mean by being a leader.

So your saying he's less of a leader than what the players and coaches say he is. You completly ignored the fact that driver stated "they looked at it and said that's how they're going to perform". I take that to mean they want to play at his level. They were looking up to him that's how he led. You simply ignored what Driver was saying.You ignored the CB saying they tried to play at his level on defense also. Two people saying the same thing on differnt sides of the ball. Seems like a true leader to me. Some people prefer running thier mouths, sounds like Favre didn't do that.

Seems the CB is trying to be nice to me after taking the whole thing in context (rather than latching on to one phrase). He can't just bash his QB after all

You might not want to admit it but Favre is a leader and I really don't even like the guy but know a great player when I see one.

 

[zDragon]

Everything points to the difference Favre made in the level of play for the packers. You are just ignoring it.

And therein lies the fallacy.The QB that replaced Favre is playing as well as Favre did but yet the wins aren't stacking up.You are assuming that Favre's leadership is making the difference despite no evidence of any causal connection between the two.And sometime long ago and black cat walked across someone's path and something bad happened to them. Well, it had to be the black cat. Yesterday was fine and there was no black cat in the path yesterday.Brilliant. "Everything points to the difference Favre made" actually means "Nothing points to the difference Favre made, but I don't have any better explanation so I'm going with 'Favre's gone, so that must be it'.

Sure why don't you prove your side of the argument instead. Seems to me you just don't want to admit he did make a difference and keep throwing up false accusations.

 

[zDragon]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

There have bee quotes in here by Jets players acknowledging what Favre has done to elevate their play(and you dismiss them). It was discussed this morning on ESPN. Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers has stated publicly the Packers are missing Favre's leadership and you try to fall back on some lame attempt like this. The team is missing leadership and EVERYONE knows it. Stop trying this silly attempt to point out single players because all you will do is spin and spin again in your attempts to diminish what Favre meant to the Packers. You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

Whoa, scratch that.For evidence that players are now missing Favre's leadership...we now have Stinger Ray's "Cause Wayne Larrivee said so."

Well, I guess that settles it. All you needed to do was find someone else to espouse the same unsupported position without citing any evidence what so ever.

I guess for evidence that communism is a good idea, you could just say "Cause Joseph Stalin said so." Who knows communism better than Joseph Stalin.

Instead of evidence, we get a celebrity endorsement. I think Ricardo Montalban has a sweet Chrysler Cordoba over in the corner to sell you...with supple corinthian leather.

You have to be fishing. Wayne Larrivee has covered the Packers for years doing their radio and so did the author of the article. Not to mention other NFL experts that state the Packers miss Favre's leadership yet we are all supposed to believe James The Scot over these experts. You are a fool, Jimmy.

They are fishing or just refusing to look at the complete picture. Not really worth arguing with them except for when your bored.

 

[zDragon]

Here is another quote that I like....

“If you’re not giving it 100 percent, he’s going to remind you,” Colledge said. “And when he needs you to make a play, he’s going to let you know. You respect that, and it drives you to want to be better. I mean, I don’t want to be the guy that gets Brett hurt. I don’t even want to be the guy that gets Brett touched. So it pushes me every day to be a better offensive lineman.”

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21016402/page/2/

But of course sho and Jimmy want us to believe that players give 100% no matter who the QB is.

As brett would probably say "It's useless arguing with a fence post."

 

[Michael Fox Fan]

Here is another quote that I like....

“If you’re not giving it 100 percent, he’s going to remind you,” Colledge said. “And when he needs you to make a play, he’s going to let you know. You respect that, and it drives you to want to be better. I mean, I don’t want to be the guy that gets Brett hurt. I don’t even want to be the guy that gets Brett touched. So it pushes me every day to be a better offensive lineman.”

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21016402/page/2/

But of course sho and Jimmy want us to believe that players give 100% no matter who the QB is.

No, I want you to believe that players are still playing as hard as they did last year...even without Brett around.Yes, he makes you want to be better. Does it mean you really play harder or better? No.

Does that quote say they don't want to do better for Rodgers too? No.

Kind of my point. but you still don't understand that.

Have you ever worked with/for a great leader? Have you ever worked for a piss-poor leader? Leadership makes a huge difference in any organization, and in most situations. Period.

 

[sho nuff]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

There have bee quotes in here by Jets players acknowledging what Favre has done to elevate their play(and you dismiss them). It was discussed this morning on ESPN. Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers has stated publicly the Packers are missing Favre's leadership and you try to fall back on some lame attempt like this. The team is missing leadership and EVERYONE knows it. Stop trying this silly attempt to point out single players because all you will do is spin and spin again in your attempts to diminish what Favre meant to the Packers. You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

Whoa, scratch that.For evidence that players are now missing Favre's leadership...we now have Stinger Ray's "Cause Wayne Larrivee said so."

Well, I guess that settles it. All you needed to do was find someone else to espouse the same unsupported position without citing any evidence what so ever.

I guess for evidence that communism is a good idea, you could just say "Cause Joseph Stalin said so." Who knows communism better than Joseph Stalin.

Instead of evidence, we get a celebrity endorsement. I think Ricardo Montalban has a sweet Chrysler Cordoba over in the corner to sell you...with supple corinthian leather.

You have to be fishing. Wayne Larrivee has covered the Packers for years doing their radio and so did the author of the article. Not to mention other NFL experts that state the Packers miss Favre's leadership yet we are all supposed to believe James The Scot over these experts. You are a fool, Jimmy.

They are fishing or just refusing to look at the complete picture. Not really worth arguing with them except for when your bored.

Quit with the not seeing the big picture. For a person who constantly has posted things that don't even address the point I was making and think it proved something, you have no room to talk about the big picture.Also, don't lump me in with James...I think he is a bit misguided on this one.

 

[zDragon]

Here is another one that even points out the QB and the defense.

"I'm optimistic. Who isn't?" Namath said. "This is the most exciting beginning of a season we've had in some time. This is a tremendous lift in terms of expectations and excitement."

Namath was surrounded by many of his former teammates, some of whom believe Favre compares favorably to their old quarterback. Interestingly, they didn't mention arm strength. They spoke mostly about intangibles, specifically leadership.

"Joe was the guy who could make things happen; he commanded respect," said Richard Caster, the recipient of three touchdown passes that memorable day in '72. "I haven't been in Brett's huddle, but from what I can see, he's the team leader and everybody follows him. That's what Joe had. We looked to him. When we were in the huddle, all eyes were on Joe."

Caster loved the acquisition of Favre because "the team really needed something to bring some life to it. We had suffered with the established format for a number of years. Chad (Pennington) did what he was doing as a quarterback. The team just didn't want to kick it into the next gear. This is perfect. Getting Brett was a great move. He's the kind of excitement New York needs right now."

Former All-AFL linebacker Larry Grantham, a member of the Super Bowl-winning 1968 team, said quarterbacks of Namath and Favre's caliber also can inspire the defense.

"As a defensive player, when we got the ball back for Joe, we knew he was going to make something happen," said Grantham, who is battling cancer but flew up from Memphis out of loyalty to Namath. "It's the same with Brett. They have that ability."

"Unreal," former tackle Dave Herman, another member of the '68 Jets, said of Favre's six-touchdown game. "What I'm hoping, what I think he brings to the team, is the confidence factor. Natural leadership, that's what Joe had."

There's no denying that Favre has created excitement. When it was suggested to Namath that it hasn't been this way since his heyday, he laughed.

"Yeah, and the Triborough Bridge was 25 cents," he said. "It was a little different back then."

Joe Namath certainly thinks Brett Favre, if he can get some help from teammates, can lead Jets to a championship.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football...ith_broadw.html

Don't you realize none of those guys understand the game or they are just saying it to be nice. Heck, I bet they would even say those nice things about Ryan Leaf.The blind will never see the light.

 

[zDragon]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

There have bee quotes in here by Jets players acknowledging what Favre has done to elevate their play(and you dismiss them). It was discussed this morning on ESPN. Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers has stated publicly the Packers are missing Favre's leadership and you try to fall back on some lame attempt like this. The team is missing leadership and EVERYONE knows it. Stop trying this silly attempt to point out single players because all you will do is spin and spin again in your attempts to diminish what Favre meant to the Packers. You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

Whoa, scratch that.For evidence that players are now missing Favre's leadership...we now have Stinger Ray's "Cause Wayne Larrivee said so."

Well, I guess that settles it. All you needed to do was find someone else to espouse the same unsupported position without citing any evidence what so ever.

I guess for evidence that communism is a good idea, you could just say "Cause Joseph Stalin said so." Who knows communism better than Joseph Stalin.

Instead of evidence, we get a celebrity endorsement. I think Ricardo Montalban has a sweet Chrysler Cordoba over in the corner to sell you...with supple corinthian leather.

You have to be fishing. Wayne Larrivee has covered the Packers for years doing their radio and so did the author of the article. Not to mention other NFL experts that state the Packers miss Favre's leadership yet we are all supposed to believe James The Scot over these experts. You are a fool, Jimmy.

They are fishing or just refusing to look at the complete picture. Not really worth arguing with them except for when your bored.

Quit with the not seeing the big picture. For a person who constantly has posted things that don't even address the point I was making and think it proved something, you have no room to talk about the big picture.Also, don't lump me in with James...I think he is a bit misguided on this one.

Just calling it the way I see it. Weren't you going to prove your side of the argument? You know show us the definitive facts from our side. I along with others continue to add facts and supporting data to our point of view. Yet I don't see that from your side of the debate.

 

[sho nuff]

Here is another quote that I like....

“If you’re not giving it 100 percent, he’s going to remind you,” Colledge said. “And when he needs you to make a play, he’s going to let you know. You respect that, and it drives you to want to be better. I mean, I don’t want to be the guy that gets Brett hurt. I don’t even want to be the guy that gets Brett touched. So it pushes me every day to be a better offensive lineman.”

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21016402/page/2/

But of course sho and Jimmy want us to believe that players give 100% no matter who the QB is.

No, I want you to believe that players are still playing as hard as they did last year...even without Brett around.Yes, he makes you want to be better. Does it mean you really play harder or better? No.

Does that quote say they don't want to do better for Rodgers too? No.

Kind of my point. but you still don't understand that.

Have you ever worked with/for a great leader? Have you ever worked for a piss-poor leader? Leadership makes a huge difference in any organization, and in most situations. Period.

Yes I have worked with both. Though, none of us are multimillion dollar athletes playing for our next contracts and our careers with cameras and coaches watching any more.A guy does not try hard or perform is a guy who is not around very long in the league.

Im not denying Favre was a great leader...far from it.

Oh...and posting all of those quotes that Favre is a great leader...does not show where Rodgers is not a good one...and that he is not motivating others or others are not playing hard for him.

Which is my point.

To compare to this year right now. Is the difference in leadership enough...I don't think so.

I think there are too many other missing pieces right now on this team.

 

[Phase of the Game]

Then your not seeing the whole picture and that's to bad. If the Rodgers quotes don't make it clear then no need arguing the fact. Your just not going to see the light.You your self said you diminish him on purpose. So not sure why anyone would whine about it. Just the fact that you are doing it makes me wonder if your really a packers fan. Other than wondering why you would do that to your living legend I could care less.

I see the whole picture...the few of you are grasping at straws in order the argue with me.Rodgers quotes say nothing about guys not playing harder.Saying they have to step up and be leaders too and help fill the void is not even close to what you are claiming it to mean.Arguing a fact is one thing...arguing your opinion of what Rodgers was saying and having it not be close to my argument is another.I said I diminish him on purpose? Umm...link to that?Again...no more lies or spin...just me saying what you just claimed.

Maybe the small fragment you have zoomed in.Even if Rodgers quote did say it directly you would deny it. It's clear as day to those of us who see the whole picture.What void are they filling? What was the CB talking about when he made his statement? How bout Driver saying he tried to play as hard as Brett? It's really obvius.Columns have been posted that agree with what I'm saying, the packs record states it, the drop in offensive and defensive production states it. Your just not seeing it.Sorry.

Even if he said it, i would deny it?Hah.The void in leadership. Driver tried to play as hard as Brett...great. What does that have to do with how hard he is playing for Rodgers? Thats the point. You have nothing and it is very obvious you don't get it.The funny thing is, I could post. Favre is a great leader but it would not be enough for this team.And what do we get out of that...we get multiple people saying I am bashing Favre, ignoring his leadership and so on.I have agreed with most of what you are saying. I have disagreed that the team is not playing hard for Rodgers and I have disagreed that the difference in leadership from Favre to Rodgers is not enough to make this team a championship caliber team. The rest is all the spin of a few posters who are the usual ones who do such things when trying to discuss anything with me.And where is the link to me saying I diminish him on purpose. Back up your accusation, or admit you were full of it.

I do get it your blind and asking everyone to prove what's obvious. The thing is there's no empirical data to prove it.Tell you what why don't you prove the Team is playing just as hard for Rodgers as Farve. Give me some good data on this. Alllrighttty then.Record with out him so far proves he is. Prove to me otherwise or as you would say. Just admit your full of it.That's already been posted over and over by another posetr but you back tracked it to mean something else with a qualification of "as people think" or some such. So I do not feel a need to do it. If your so inclined prove to me your posts are not made to diminish Favre.

Ok, so I will put you down in the camp of Ryan Grant and John Kuhn were not playing hard when they tried to get that key first down last week. How about that?Yes, that is an example of spin...and its just one play. Its done for effect.

This is where you look silly.1. You claim you never spin.2. You get no effect by posting something like that other than you are a blind homer and will spin every chance you get. You seem to think one play is somehow making your point. IT ISN'T!

1. No, I don't claim I never spin. I deny it when you accuse me of spin when there is none.2. I get the effect...there are plenty of plays out there that show guys trying their ### off out there. Its not just about one play...there are plenty of them.The one play is an example of why some of the points being made by those arguing against me are full of it.So again...since none of you have been able to actually answer the question.Were those players not trying hard?Was Driver not trying as hard this year?Jennings?Kampman?

Another example of how you have no grasp of this concept of leadership and what it means to a team. You want to fall back to players trying hard but you are so clueless on this that it is really making you look bad. You lie about spinning and then state you get the effect of mentioning a few plays that somehow prove your point. You really are one wacked out individual.

 

[sho nuff]

WHo said they do not know anything about leadership.

But can anyone point to any of these quotes and show where Brett Favre made his Packer teammates play better and now they are not simply because of him?

Thanks, Ill hang up and listen.

and I quote sho nuff....."I go through no lengths to diminish what the guy has done."

And again...I don't diminish what he "has actually done".I diminish the thoughts and opinions of others who are overestimating his effect.

So again...can anyone point to a single player that played better simply because of Brett Favre and is now playing worse because its Rodgers at QB?

Anyone?

There have bee quotes in here by Jets players acknowledging what Favre has done to elevate their play(and you dismiss them). It was discussed this morning on ESPN. Wayne Larrivee, the voice of the Packers has stated publicly the Packers are missing Favre's leadership and you try to fall back on some lame attempt like this. The team is missing leadership and EVERYONE knows it. Stop trying this silly attempt to point out single players because all you will do is spin and spin again in your attempts to diminish what Favre meant to the Packers. You also should know that leadership is an intangible and difficult to measure but this is where you want to try and spin too.

Whoa, scratch that.For evidence that players are now missing Favre's leadership...we now have Stinger Ray's "Cause Wayne Larrivee said so."

Well, I guess that settles it. All you needed to do was find someone else to espouse the same unsupported position without citing any evidence what so ever.

I guess for evidence that communism is a good idea, you could just say "Cause Joseph Stalin said so." Who knows communism better than Joseph Stalin.

Instead of evidence, we get a celebrity endorsement. I think Ricardo Montalban has a sweet Chrysler Cordoba over in the corner to sell you...with supple corinthian leather.

You have to be fishing. Wayne Larrivee has covered the Packers for years doing their radio and so did the author of the article. Not to mention other NFL experts that state the Packers miss Favre's leadership yet we are all supposed to believe James The Scot over these experts. You are a fool, Jimmy.

They are fishing or just refusing to look at the complete picture. Not really worth arguing with them except for when your bored.

Quit with the not seeing the big picture. For a person who constantly has posted things that don't even address the point I was making and think it proved something, you have no room to talk about the big picture.Also, don't lump me in with James...I think he is a bit misguided on this one.

Just calling it the way I see it. Weren't you going to prove your side of the argument? You know show us the definitive facts from our side. I along with others continue to add facts and supporting data to our point of view. Yet I don't see that from your side of the debate.

No, I was not going to prove that people are playing just as hard for Rodgers...because it cannot be proven.But I have asked several people if guys are not playing harder for him...and not one person has answered that question for some reason.

And you keep come back to the supporting data.

Its great stuff...but not one bit of it has supported the idea that guys tried harder for Favre than they have for Aaron Rodgers...and thats all I care about right now.

its the diffence between the 2 guys that matters...is this leadership that is lacking...the key thing in the season? Would it be enough for this team?

I don't think so...which is why I say many of you are overestimating its overall effect.

You also don't even see my side of the debate...or you would quit posting quotes that do not even address what I have said or make false accusations about what you claim I said.

 

[Phase of the Game]

Here is another quote that I like....

“If you’re not giving it 100 percent, he’s going to remind you,” Colledge said. “And when he needs you to make a play, he’s going to let you know. You respect that, and it drives you to want to be better. I mean, I don’t want to be the guy that gets Brett hurt. I don’t even want to be the guy that gets Brett touched. So it pushes me every day to be a better offensive lineman.”

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21016402/page/2/

But of course sho and Jimmy want us to believe that players give 100% no matter who the QB is.

No, I want you to believe that players are still playing as hard as they did last year...even without Brett around.Yes, he makes you want to be better. Does it mean you really play harder or better? No.

Does that quote say they don't want to do better for Rodgers too? No.

Kind of my point. but you still don't understand that.

Have you ever worked with/for a great leader? Have you ever worked for a piss-poor leader? Leadership makes a huge difference in any organization, and in most situations. Period.

Oh...and posting all of those quotes that Favre is a great leader...does not show where Rodgers is not a good one...and that he is not motivating others or others are not playing hard for him.Which is my point.

Ok...show us all the quotes from so many different people in the NFL that state Rodgers is a leader like Favre and also go look at how may experts are stating the team is missing Favre's leadership and they wouldn't be missing Favre's leadership if Rodgers was was so good at motivating others.

 

[zDragon]

Here is another quote that I like....

“If you’re not giving it 100 percent, he’s going to remind you,” Colledge said. “And when he needs you to make a play, he’s going to let you know. You respect that, and it drives you to want to be better. I mean, I don’t want to be the guy that gets Brett hurt. I don’t even want to be the guy that gets Brett touched. So it pushes me every day to be a better offensive lineman.”

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21016402/page/2/

But of course sho and Jimmy want us to believe that players give 100% no matter who the QB is.

No, I want you to believe that players are still playing as hard as they did last year...even without Brett around.Yes, he makes you want to be better. Does it mean you really play harder or better? No.

Does that quote say they don't want to do better for Rodgers too? No.

Kind of my point. but you still don't understand that.

Have you ever worked with/for a great leader? Have you ever worked for a piss-poor leader? Leadership makes a huge difference in any organization, and in most situations. Period.

Yes I have worked with both. Though, none of us are multimillion dollar athletes playing for our next contracts and our careers 1. with cameras and coaches watching any more.A guy does not try hard or perform is a guy who is not around very long in the league.

Im not denying Favre was a great leader...far from it.

Oh...and posting all of those quotes that Favre is a great leader...does not show where Rodgers is not a good one...and t 2. that he is not motivating others or others are not playing hard for him.

3. Which is my point.

To compare to this year right now. Is the difference in leadership enough...I don't think so.

4. I think there are too many other missing pieces right now on this team.

1. You seem to be saying you have experience in professional sports. So who did you play for and with?2. Please post data to support your side. I posted comments from Rodgers that indicates even he thinks he is not the leader Brett was and that others need to step in and help.

3. Post information to support your point then.

4. A lot of teams can say this. It's just a fall back excuse if you ask me.

 

[sho nuff]

Then your not seeing the whole picture and that's to bad. If the Rodgers quotes don't make it clear then no need arguing the fact. Your just not going to see the light.You your self said you diminish him on purpose. So not sure why anyone would whine about it. Just the fact that you are doing it makes me wonder if your really a packers fan. Other than wondering why you would do that to your living legend I could care less.

I see the whole picture...the few of you are grasping at straws in order the argue with me.Rodgers quotes say nothing about guys not playing harder.Saying they have to step up and be leaders too and help fill the void is not even close to what you are claiming it to mean.Arguing a fact is one thing...arguing your opinion of what Rodgers was saying and having it not be close to my argument is another.I said I diminish him on purpose? Umm...link to that?Again...no more lies or spin...just me saying what you just claimed.

Maybe the small fragment you have zoomed in.Even if Rodgers quote did say it directly you would deny it. It's clear as day to those of us who see the whole picture.What void are they filling? What was the CB talking about when he made his statement? How bout Driver saying he tried to play as hard as Brett? It's really obvius.Columns have been posted that agree with what I'm saying, the packs record states it, the drop in offensive and defensive production states it. Your just not seeing it.Sorry.

Even if he said it, i would deny it?Hah.The void in leadership. Driver tried to play as hard as Brett...great. What does that have to do with how hard he is playing for Rodgers? Thats the point. You have nothing and it is very obvious you don't get it.The funny thing is, I could post. Favre is a great leader but it would not be enough for this team.And what do we get out of that...we get multiple people saying I am bashing Favre, ignoring his leadership and so on.I have agreed with most of what you are saying. I have disagreed that the team is not playing hard for Rodgers and I have disagreed that the difference in leadership from Favre to Rodgers is not enough to make this team a championship caliber team. The rest is all the spin of a few posters who are the usual ones who do such things when trying to discuss anything with me.And where is the link to me saying I diminish him on purpose. Back up your accusation, or admit you were full of it.

I do get it your blind and asking everyone to prove what's obvious. The thing is there's no empirical data to prove it.Tell you what why don't you prove the Team is playing just as hard for Rodgers as Farve. Give me some good data on this. Alllrighttty then.Record with out him so far proves he is. Prove to me otherwise or as you would say. Just admit your full of it.That's already been posted over and over by another posetr but you back tracked it to mean something else with a qualification of "as people think" or some such. So I do not feel a need to do it. If your so inclined prove to me your posts are not made to diminish Favre.

Ok, so I will put you down in the camp of Ryan Grant and John Kuhn were not playing hard when they tried to get that key first down last week. How about that?Yes, that is an example of spin...and its just one play. Its done for effect.

This is where you look silly.1. You claim you never spin.2. You get no effect by posting something like that other than you are a blind homer and will spin every chance you get. You seem to think one play is somehow making your point. IT ISN'T!

1. No, I don't claim I never spin. I deny it when you accuse me of spin when there is none.2. I get the effect...there are plenty of plays out there that show guys trying their ### off out there. Its not just about one play...there are plenty of them.The one play is an example of why some of the points being made by those arguing against me are full of it.So again...since none of you have been able to actually answer the question.Were those players not trying hard?Was Driver not trying as hard this year?Jennings?Kampman?

Another example of how you have no grasp of this concept of leadership and what it means to a team. You want to fall back to players trying hard but you are so clueless on this that it is really making you look bad. You lie about spinning and then state you get the effect of mentioning a few plays that somehow prove your point. You really are one wacked out individual.

I don't fall back on players trying hard...from the very start it has been my disagreement with the article...no matter how much you try to spin it around and claim Im diminishing Favre or saying he is not a leader...Im not doing that at all.Im saying you all put too much emphasis on it and its not enough for this team.and that the current team is still playing hard and trying hard...even without Brett Favre.I don't lie about spinning...like zdragon...please back that accusation up or just quit.I can go on and on with plays...I used the short yardage ones for a specific reason...because the team was terrible in short yardage last year. (I guess they were not trying too hard or Favre's motivation was not enough then either huh?)That last part is a joke...I don't expect you to get it though.My point remains...leadership is a great thing...motivation is a great thing.Not one of you have been able to show where the difference between Favre and Rodgers in that aspect has led to guys not trying as hard or playing as hard...nor where the lack of it has really been the issue in this Packer team.Thats the bottom line...how has it all effected this team.Where do you rate it as far as why the season has gone the way it has?

 

[sho nuff]

Here is another quote that I like....

“If you’re not giving it 100 percent, he’s going to remind you,” Colledge said. “And when he needs you to make a play, he’s going to let you know. You respect that, and it drives you to want to be better. I mean, I don’t want to be the guy that gets Brett hurt. I don’t even want to be the guy that gets Brett touched. So it pushes me every day to be a better offensive lineman.”

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21016402/page/2/

But of course sho and Jimmy want us to believe that players give 100% no matter who the QB is.

No, I want you to believe that players are still playing as hard as they did last year...even without Brett around.Yes, he makes you want to be better. Does it mean you really play harder or better? No.

Does that quote say they don't want to do better for Rodgers too? No.

Kind of my point. but you still don't understand that.

Have you ever worked with/for a great leader? Have you ever worked for a piss-poor leader? Leadership makes a huge difference in any organization, and in most situations. Period.

Oh...and posting all of those quotes that Favre is a great leader...does not show where Rodgers is not a good one...and that he is not motivating others or others are not playing hard for him.Which is my point.

Ok...show us all the quotes from so many different people in the NFL that show Rodgers is a leader like Favre.

and another great example of your spin.Would you please link me to my post where I claimed Rodgers was a leader like Favre?

Im willing to bet you will never find it.

 

[sho nuff]

Here is another quote that I like....

“If you’re not giving it 100 percent, he’s going to remind you,” Colledge said. “And when he needs you to make a play, he’s going to let you know. You respect that, and it drives you to want to be better. I mean, I don’t want to be the guy that gets Brett hurt. I don’t even want to be the guy that gets Brett touched. So it pushes me every day to be a better offensive lineman.”

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21016402/page/2/

But of course sho and Jimmy want us to believe that players give 100% no matter who the QB is.

No, I want you to believe that players are still playing as hard as they did last year...even without Brett around.Yes, he makes you want to be better. Does it mean you really play harder or better? No.

Does that quote say they don't want to do better for Rodgers too? No.

Kind of my point. but you still don't understand that.

Have you ever worked with/for a great leader? Have you ever worked for a piss-poor leader? Leadership makes a huge difference in any organization, and in most situations. Period.

Yes I have worked with both. Though, none of us are multimillion dollar athletes playing for our next contracts and our careers 1. with cameras and coaches watching any more.A guy does not try hard or perform is a guy who is not around very long in the league.

Im not denying Favre was a great leader...far from it.

Oh...and posting all of those quotes that Favre is a great leader...does not show where Rodgers is not a good one...and t 2. that he is not motivating others or others are not playing hard for him.

3. Which is my point.

To compare to this year right now. Is the difference in leadership enough...I don't think so.

4. I think there are too many other missing pieces right now on this team.

1. You seem to be saying you have experience in professional sports. So who did you play for and with?2. Please post data to support your side. I posted comments from Rodgers that indicates even he thinks he is not the leader Brett was and that others need to step in and help.

3. Post information to support your point then.

4. A lot of teams can say this. It's just a fall back excuse if you ask me.

1. You may need to check your glasses or contacts. I said very specifically that none of us are multi million dollar athletes. I typed "any more" I mean any move we make. Saying...none of us are watched like the players are.2. You want me to post things that may or may not exist. This "prove it" crap out of you is growing old. All because you refuse to admit you made a false accusation against me. You bet get over that one quick or just grow up.

3. My point continues that none of you can prove that Rodgers is not doing things or players are not playing hard for him. Your inability to show that...and continuation showing quotes that don't address that and only prove things Ive already agreed are factors is proof enough at this point.

4. A fall back excuse? That there are a ton of factors leading to this team's play? Umm...my point is, supposed lack of leadership by Rodgers and him supposedly not motivating people enough is not one of the top issues on this team right now.

 

[Phase of the Game]

Here is another quote that I like....

“If you’re not giving it 100 percent, he’s going to remind you,” Colledge said. “And when he needs you to make a play, he’s going to let you know. You respect that, and it drives you to want to be better. I mean, I don’t want to be the guy that gets Brett hurt. I don’t even want to be the guy that gets Brett touched. So it pushes me every day to be a better offensive lineman.”

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21016402/page/2/

But of course sho and Jimmy want us to believe that players give 100% no matter who the QB is.

No, I want you to believe that players are still playing as hard as they did last year...even without Brett around.Yes, he makes you want to be better. Does it mean you really play harder or better? No.

Does that quote say they don't want to do better for Rodgers too? No.

Kind of my point. but you still don't understand that.

Have you ever worked with/for a great leader? Have you ever worked for a piss-poor leader? Leadership makes a huge difference in any organization, and in most situations. Period.

Oh...and posting all of those quotes that Favre is a great leader...does not show where Rodgers is not a good one...and that he is not motivating others or others are not playing hard for him.Which is my point.

Ok...show us all the quotes from so many different people in the NFL that show Rodgers is a leader like Favre.

and another great example of your spin.Would you please link me to my post where I claimed Rodgers was a leader like Favre?

Im willing to bet you will never find it.

Look above.....you keep claiming Rodgers is a good leader which is your lame attempt to compare him to Favre and also leads to your quote that you don't do anything to diminish what Favre did.Tell us why you think Rodgers is a good leader?