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Mortgage Rates (2 Viewers)

Why are you moving? I missed that if you mentioned earlier.
We haven't officially decided but we are about 90% sure. And for a couple of reasons:

1. My oldest son has an offer to kick at a college up near Milwaukee.

2. My second son who is 15 is a massive fish-head. Obsessive. The day he would graduate high school he would move there. And the type of water up there compared to Kansas is just not comparable. He will make a career in fishing. He's not the college type, so his plan is to look into a trade or look into an apprenticeship with some of the marine manufacturers based up near there. His cousin (my nephew) also fishes a ton up there and is planning on living up there after college. So they have talked about some future things in the fishing industry.

3. My daughter hates the heat and the summers here. She is more of an outdoorsy, hiking girl, so there is just so much to do in that regard up there.

4. We are planning to retire there eventually anyway. With an eye toward a winter place in the Naples area. Like a condo or something.

So, all of things are pointing us in that direction now. And while I'm still young-ish to fix up a place and get it to our liking before I retire in 8 years or so. Time for the next phase of our family adventure.
Are you and your son familiar with Tom Boley? He's a somewhat younger (30s?) walleye fisherman out of northern Wisconsin that has a pretty big following. He's been on YouTube for years and still is to some degree but has moved a lot to another platform that I'm not very familiar with. Anyway, he puts out a ton of content, and if your son tried to connect with him and see if he'd use any of his lures or plastics on one of his videos, that could be a huge boost for your son.
Good idea.

I don't know of him but I'd bet $100 my son does. :lol:
I have watched Boley. Dude catches more walleyes in a single trip than I've caught in the last 4 years. Middle of the day, whatever. He knows his stuff.

Hope you find something that suits you. Lakefront property in all of WI has doubled in the last 4 years. With the high interest rates...I don't really understand how people keep snapping these up but it hasn't really slowed down other than at the top end 800K+. I'm really familiar with a lot of lakes in SE WI. Lake Country (Waukesha county) has some of the clearest lakes that still have great fishing. The larger ones have stocked musky. Lots of annoying boat traffic though...
 
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I've been looking at WI lakefront properties for 8 years. It's doubled in the last 4 years, which really blows in the face of 8% rates. But as the saying goes: They aren't making more lakes. If work from home remains a thing, I can't think of any reason people would start abandoning a lakeside paradise.

I probably have fished 30+ lakes in the area and could give you an idea on clarity, weediness, quality of fishery etc. on a lot of them. Waukesha & Washington counties have some of the clearest lakes around. Wisconsin River and Winnebago suffer blue/green algae blooms in the summer, but they are still some of the best fisheries in the state. Not fun for swimming etc.

I have watched Boley. Dude catches more walleyes in a single trip than I've caught in the last 4 years. Middle of the day, whatever. He knows his stuff.

Hope you find something that suits you. Lakefront property in all of WI has doubled in the last 4 years. With the high interest rates...I don't really understand how people keep snapping these up but it hasn't really slowed down other than at the top end 800K+. I'm really familiar with a lot of lakes in SE WI. Lake Country (Waukesha county) has some of the clearest lakes that still have great fishing. The larger ones have stocked musky. Lots of annoying boat traffic though...
Yeah, we have been looking as well for the last 3 or 4 years. The timing just wasn't right but now it is for us.

That's why we started looking at some houses with a little land. We are looking up near Minocqua/Rhinelander/Eagle River. Maybe even down to Tomahawk. There is so much good water around there that we have no problem moving a boat around. We already have a nice fishing boat and also a river boat that I store at my uncle's house in Wausau.
 
@Chadstroma - any idea what we might see in the spring? Contemplating a move to Wisconsin around May of 2024. Makes me want to puke to give up my sweet interest rate but sometimes life takes a guy in a different direction.
I will start off by saying "hell if I know" :shrug::lmao:

What I am seeing is most predict rates to have meaningful drop in late 2024/early 2025 with rates being fairly stable until then. Of course there are outlier predictions of even higher rates or quicker drops but most seem to point to about a year or more from now to get relief on the rates.

I don't expect anything to change much without any unexpected things to happen (severe economic turndown, jump in inflation up or down, etc) into Spring of next year.

It is going to suck to leave your sweet rate now. The good news is that you should be able to refinance to get closer to that sweet rate not long after but the bad news is likely not close to that sweet rate.

The other thing I can add is that I have added a ton of states I am licensed in and WI is one of them. So, when you are ready to make that move, reach out and I can assist you with it.
Hmmm wonder what might prompt that? :whistle:
The RE market crashing in some areas, most areas?
I would love to see the Florida prices come down

Mrs and I backed our way into a lot of equity over the last several years in South Florida. Bought a home in Miami NYE 2012/sold it 3 years to the day for close to double and moved to Palm Beach/Jupiter and actually did not buy a home right away...mistake mistake mistake

-We bought a condo about 5 years ago and I'm almost embarrassed how fast it's gone up. Rent alone in the condos where I live is around $3,000 a month now(used to be around $2k a month) and my P&I alone is around $800 a month and I have no plans on moving out of here and using it for rental income, why? Because I cannot afford the price of many 2,500 sq ft homes around the NPB/Treasure Coast area where we are now. It's outrageous what they want for homes in parts of Florida.

Now my MIL will find you affordable RE in areas you don't want to live, some people might not want to live, rural sections and believe me there is more than you think throughout Middle and North Florida, South Florida not so much.

-My point is that even with all this home equity, there's really not much we can do with it right now.

There is almost no inventory to buy. I remember back when rates were low I'd do a search and get 5 pages of hits. Now I do a search and get 5 hits, same area.
I forget the actual percentage but it is something like 75% of all mortgages in the country are under 4% right now. People are only selling now if they don't have to move (selling a rental, making the primary a rental, two families consolidating etc) or they absolutely have to move. No one wants to give up their 4% or lower mortgage to get a new home with 7 or 8%

I advise a lot of FTHBers, for example, a FB group with over 10K members that I run, and I keep telling them DO NOT wait to buy when rates go lower because you will have an even harder time finding something. There is so much bottled up demand right now and so much of that has the thinking that they will just buy when rates go down. Well, guess how many other people have that same thought? Buy now, if can qualify and the payments work for your budget, and then refinance later when rates go down and let all the others scramble for the low inventory (though it should improve as rates go down when, it will still be low inventory) with prices going up again.

I can't advise my clients to sell right now. It's typically better to rent, then sell in 2-4 years when the market becomes accustomed to the new rates. I don't think they are gonna drop for a long time. I do have investors that are paying cash for homes. Mortgage rates being high is only going to widen the wealth gap. The rich don't need the loans (or at the highest levels can loan themselves money at low rates). They'll pay cash and get a fairly safe large ROI relative to the volatility of the stock market.

And like you said, I am encouraging my buyers. They are going to get a low price for the house compared to when the market recovers and they are fighting it out with 10+ other offers. It's actually a great time to buy, and then refinance in a few years. Problem is lack of inventory. Low and high priced home are on the market for a variety of reasons. But the mid-priced homes for a family of 3-5 people. There's no inventory.
Lack of inventory and the higher rates, the higher property valuations with wages not keeping pace makes it really hard for a lot of FTHBers.... but I am on the mountain top yelling it all the time... if you can qualify now and it is in your budget and you can find the property- BUY NOW! Rates, other than if you can qualify, should NEVER be a factor into whether you buy or not. Never.
 
And like you said, I am encouraging my buyers. They are going to get a low price for the house compared to when the market recovers and they are fighting it out with 10+ other offers. It's actually a great time to buy, and then refinance in a few years. Problem is lack of inventory. Low and high priced home are on the market for a variety of reasons. But the mid-priced homes for a family of 3-5 people. There's no inventory.
Yeah, our agent confirmed this as well.
We just bought for this very reason. We had a pretty significant down payment, but man, these rates are brutal. Hoping we can refinance very soon, but who knows (no one).
Did I give you this link to sign up with? https://usafe.finlocker.com/pfm/registration/invite?key=b29d7f89-f596-42b1-9b51-9cf2fd2a4339

USafe is an app that goes over a lot of financial stuff but I just added HomeScout to it which gives home info like valuation and more as well as helps keep an eye on rates for you to refi later. (anyone can sign up for this if you want)

Bank level security, option to share high level info with me or keep it private and completely free with no selling of your info. Basically a service I pay for to offer to my clients. (Some of you have signed up for Homebot with me which is a similar service to HomeScout and I will be migrating everyone over to HomeScout)
 
Good article in the WSJ today refuting the fallacy pushed by many in the residential mortgage and housing industries (racket?) that buying is always better than renting. Paywall so here are relevant excerpts:

There’s Never Been a Worse Time to Buy Instead of Rent​

It is now 52% more expensive to buy a home than to rent one because of climbing mortgage rates


The cost of buying a home versus renting one is at its most extreme since at least 1996. The average monthly new mortgage payment is 52% higher than the average apartment rent, according to CBRE analysis. The last time the measure looked out of whack was before the 2008 housing crash. Even then, the premium peaked at 33% in the second quarter of 2006.

In theory, buying and renting costs should be roughly matched, according to Matt Vance, head of multifamily research at CBRE. Although owners benefit when house prices go up, they also put more cash into their homes than tenants for things such as repairs and refurbishments.

From 1996 to mid-2003, the average cost to buy or rent did indeed work out more or less equal. After the global financial crisis, though, rock-bottom interest rates and plenty of housing supply meant it was 12% cheaper on average to buy a home than to rent one during the 2010s. The current hefty ownership premium reflects the surging cost of debt, as rates on a 30-year mortgage reach 8%, as well as high house prices since pandemic lockdowns raised the value of domestic space.

A person taking out a 30-year mortgage today on a $430,000 home with a 10% down payment would fork out around $3,200 in monthly repayments, 60% more than if they had bought the same house three years ago. Rents have risen by a less-blistering 22% over the same period, though this was still moderately ahead of wider U.S. inflation.

A collapse in prices would restore the market to balance, but seems unlikely barring a major recession.

On paper, these owners might appear to benefit from the current situation, but they, too, face costs. They can’t easily move, and downsizing to take advantage of record house prices might not add up, given higher mortgage rates.

With homeownership out of reach for many tenants, landlords would normally be able to push rents higher. But the supply of homes to rent isn’t as tight, with a glut of newly built apartments depressing rent growth. Demand from tenants is also weaker than it was during the pandemic, as most people who were planning to move have already done so over the last two years. Fannie Mae thinks vacancy rates in U.S. multifamily buildings will reach 6.25% in 2024, above the 15-year average of 5.8%.
 
Good article in the WSJ today refuting the fallacy pushed by many in the residential mortgage and housing industries (racket?) that buying is always better than renting. Paywall so here are relevant excerpts:

There’s Never Been a Worse Time to Buy Instead of Rent​

It is now 52% more expensive to buy a home than to rent one because of climbing mortgage rates


The cost of buying a home versus renting one is at its most extreme since at least 1996. The average monthly new mortgage payment is 52% higher than the average apartment rent, according to CBRE analysis. The last time the measure looked out of whack was before the 2008 housing crash. Even then, the premium peaked at 33% in the second quarter of 2006.

In theory, buying and renting costs should be roughly matched, according to Matt Vance, head of multifamily research at CBRE. Although owners benefit when house prices go up, they also put more cash into their homes than tenants for things such as repairs and refurbishments.

From 1996 to mid-2003, the average cost to buy or rent did indeed work out more or less equal. After the global financial crisis, though, rock-bottom interest rates and plenty of housing supply meant it was 12% cheaper on average to buy a home than to rent one during the 2010s. The current hefty ownership premium reflects the surging cost of debt, as rates on a 30-year mortgage reach 8%, as well as high house prices since pandemic lockdowns raised the value of domestic space.

A person taking out a 30-year mortgage today on a $430,000 home with a 10% down payment would fork out around $3,200 in monthly repayments, 60% more than if they had bought the same house three years ago. Rents have risen by a less-blistering 22% over the same period, though this was still moderately ahead of wider U.S. inflation.

A collapse in prices would restore the market to balance, but seems unlikely barring a major recession.

On paper, these owners might appear to benefit from the current situation, but they, too, face costs. They can’t easily move, and downsizing to take advantage of record house prices might not add up, given higher mortgage rates.

With homeownership out of reach for many tenants, landlords would normally be able to push rents higher. But the supply of homes to rent isn’t as tight, with a glut of newly built apartments depressing rent growth. Demand from tenants is also weaker than it was during the pandemic, as most people who were planning to move have already done so over the last two years. Fannie Mae thinks vacancy rates in U.S. multifamily buildings will reach 6.25% in 2024, above the 15-year average of 5.8%.

I don't know if it will happen, but I've definitely seen the disconnect in home prices and rent prices when looking for investment properties. I know out west is different, but the one we looked at yesterday for instance was $625k for a duplex where each side is going to rent for around $1000/mo. That's a ~$4500 mortgage payment versus $2000 in rent for the same place, not accounting for the $125k out of pocket for the privilege of paying the mortgage.

So definitely a huge disconnect between mortgages and rents out here in Utah at least.

ETA: 5br SFH a few houses down from us was renting and just had the tenants move out and looks like it's listed for $3000/mo for rent. Fair market value if they were to sell the place is probably at least $750k, maybe $800k+. So again probably a mortgage well over $5k vs rent price of $3k, again not counting the huge cash out of pocket needed to get into the mortgage.
 
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For one, I wouldn’t trust the source as they are a massive landlord and have an interest in pushing that narrative of renting over buying. Its a bit disingenuous to compare apt rents vs buying SFH’s as well. That being said it is indeed financially better to rent than to buy at this moment, especially if you believe rates will stay high for longer. If you are thinking of buying though, best to be patient and strategic. In my area many houses are sitting but the only people selling are the ones that absolutely have to. Sellers aren’t dropping prices much but they are offering 2-1 buydowns, closing cost concessions snd other incentives to buyers. Many houses instead of slashing pricing are just getting pulled to wait until Spring or to rent out because they bought or refi’d back when rates were stupid low.

IMO, tons of pent up demand right now due to high rates. If there’s ever a meaningful drop it will be crazy again barring a hard landing and prolonged recession.
 

I don't know if it will happen, but I've definitely seen the disconnect in home prices and rent prices when looking for investment properties. I know out west is different, but the one we looked at yesterday for instance was $625k for a duplex where each side is going to rent for around $1000/mo. That's a ~$4500 mortgage payment versus $2000 in rent for the same place, not accounting for the $125k out of pocket for the privilege of paying the mortgage.

So definitely a huge disconnect between mortgages and rents out here in Utah at least.

ETA: 5br SFH a few houses down from us was renting and just had the tenants move out and looks like it's listed for $3000/mo for rent. Fair market value if they were to sell the place is probably at least $750k, maybe $800k+. So again probably a mortgage well over $5k vs rent price of $3k, again not counting the huge cash out of pocket needed to get into the mortgage.
In the article, the CBRE chart labeled "premium/discount to buy a U.S. home vs. renting it" went from 1996 to 2023.

The last period of "premium" went for seven years from 2003 to 2010, peaking at 33% when house prices began to crash in 2006. The 11-year period from 2010 to 2021 was a "discount" that topped out at -24% in 2012.

The current period of "buy vs. rent premium" could last a while is my point.
 
For one, I wouldn’t trust the source as they are a massive landlord and have an interest in pushing that narrative of renting over buying. Its a bit disingenuous to compare apt rents vs buying SFH’s as well. That being said it is indeed financially better to rent than to buy at this moment, especially if you believe rates will stay high for longer. If you are thinking of buying though, best to be patient and strategic. In my area many houses are sitting but the only people selling are the ones that absolutely have to. Sellers aren’t dropping prices much but they are offering 2-1 buydowns, closing cost concessions snd other incentives to buyers. Many houses instead of slashing pricing are just getting pulled to wait until Spring or to rent out because they bought or refi’d back when rates were stupid low.

IMO, tons of pent up demand right now due to high rates. If there’s ever a meaningful drop it will be crazy again barring a hard landing and prolonged recession.

But isn't there a lot of pent up supply as well? People that generally want to sell but aren't listing or are listing at "what the hell we'll list it high and see if we get any bites but we don't really care of we don't" prices because they don't want to give up their low rate.

I'm just not sure if it's as simple as the "interest rates go down, home prices go up" we typically see. The inverse certainly wasn't true. Home prices haven't really declined much despite massive increases in rates. Mostly because supply is sitting on the sidelines just like demand.

If rates go down but prices go up to negate that then why does that bring in new buyers? If someone isn't willing to pay a $6k/mo mortgage at 8% versus $3k/mo to rent now I'm not sure they're suddenly eager to jump into the buyer market when they're still looking at a $6k/mo mortgage at 5% versus $3k/mo to rent.

There's also the reliable trope that "when everyone knows what the market is going to do, the opposite usually happens". Maybe when rates start being cut we'll see this flurry of new buyers like we anticipate. But I could also see a scenario where even at more modest rates the buyers on the sidelines still think it's too expensive, but all those people that were clinging to their precious low rate start putting their houses up and thinking they can finally move in to a new place after they sell. But then they all just end up sitting there in a Mexican standoff with each other since they all want to sell before buying and now there is plenty of inventory/competition to drive down prices for the people willing to buy first.
 
Its a bit disingenuous to compare apt rents vs buying SFH’s as well.
It's disingenuous to suggest the dynamic is limited to just apts. Apartment rents were just used in the CBRE study primarily due to data availability.

Go to Zillow and look at any single family/townhome rental listing in your area. Note the rental price and then toggle check the sale price Zestimate. You'll see the exact same dynamic.

I just did it randomly for a SFH in Fort Collins CO that was renting for $2K a month. House value in Zillow was at $596K which put the mortgage at roughly $3.0K for a $1,000 premium (i.e. exactly the same as the WSJ article).

Ditto for a second sample in suburban Denver. Less premium, but nevertheless a premium.
 
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Absolute crap article. But why listen to someone like me that is a racketeer actually involved in the market and instead listen to someone in sitting in London using stats from one of the biggest landlord's in the world. So much about it is just bad assumptions, bad data and just short sighted. But again, don't listen to me, I am just some scam artist lying to people with my evil plan to trick them to own versus rent.
 
IMO, tons of pent up demand right now due to high rates. If there’s ever a meaningful drop it will be crazy again barring a hard landing and prolonged recession.
This makes a lot of sense. It's not as if there is a glut of housing around, so the rubber band could be pulling tight.
 
Absolute crap article. But why listen to someone like me that is a racketeer actually involved in the market and instead listen to someone in sitting in London using stats from one of the biggest landlord's in the world. So much about it is just bad assumptions, bad data and just short sighted. But again, don't listen to me, I am just some scam artist lying to people with my evil plan to trick them to own versus rent.
Finally. Some truth. ;)
 
For one, I wouldn’t trust the source as they are a massive landlord and have an interest in pushing that narrative of renting over buying. Its a bit disingenuous to compare apt rents vs buying SFH’s as well. That being said it is indeed financially better to rent than to buy at this moment, especially if you believe rates will stay high for longer. If you are thinking of buying though, best to be patient and strategic. In my area many houses are sitting but the only people selling are the ones that absolutely have to. Sellers aren’t dropping prices much but they are offering 2-1 buydowns, closing cost concessions snd other incentives to buyers. Many houses instead of slashing pricing are just getting pulled to wait until Spring or to rent out because they bought or refi’d back when rates were stupid low.

IMO, tons of pent up demand right now due to high rates. If there’s ever a meaningful drop it will be crazy again barring a hard landing and prolonged recession.

But isn't there a lot of pent up supply as well? People that generally want to sell but aren't listing or are listing at "what the hell we'll list it high and see if we get any bites but we don't really care of we don't" prices because they don't want to give up their low rate.

I'm just not sure if it's as simple as the "interest rates go down, home prices go up" we typically see. The inverse certainly wasn't true. Home prices haven't really declined much despite massive increases in rates. Mostly because supply is sitting on the sidelines just like demand.

If rates go down but prices go up to negate that then why does that bring in new buyers? If someone isn't willing to pay a $6k/mo mortgage at 8% versus $3k/mo to rent now I'm not sure they're suddenly eager to jump into the buyer market when they're still looking at a $6k/mo mortgage at 5% versus $3k/mo to rent.

There's also the reliable trope that "when everyone knows what the market is going to do, the opposite usually happens". Maybe when rates start being cut we'll see this flurry of new buyers like we anticipate. But I could also see a scenario where even at more modest rates the buyers on the sidelines still think it's too expensive, but all those people that were clinging to their precious low rate start putting their houses up and thinking they can finally move in to a new place after they sell. But then they all just end up sitting there in a Mexican standoff with each other since they all want to sell before buying and now there is plenty of inventory/competition to drive down prices for the people willing to buy first.

There is a lot of pent up supply as well, no doubt. Generally though anyone looking to sell existing homes is going to need somewhere else to live and that helps drive demand. It’s obviously not a perfect 1to1. No one knows what will happen for sure, we are in unprecedented times due to such extreme low rates followed by a whiplash back up. I think the mexican standoff you mentioned will likely last for a while as IMO people are going to cling to those sub 3% interest rate mortgages as long as they can.

But I also look at what @Sand mentioned, structurally across the US we under built for over a decade and more and are only slowly catching up. That was the narrative for a while driving the booming housing market. The Fed poured rocket fuel onto everything with cheap money and low rates and now we’ll have to wait awhile for things to reset… but structurally we still have too many people chasing too few housing units. Until that changes or some other macro shock IMO there’s going to be lots of pent up demand waiting on the sidelines for either a price decline, rate decline or both.
 

But I also look at what @Sand mentioned, structurally across the US we under built for over a decade and more and are only slowly catching up.
We have also structurally imported millions more people than anticipated into the country over the last number of years. (Not a political statement, just math here.) That definitely has a trickle up component to it and why builders have concentrated on higher priced homes. People are being pushed into that level of home.
 
Population has exploded over the last decade plus. On top of that, the previous decade had fewer new home construction than any other decade going back to the 1930's. We are not even remotely close to catching up to that lag let alone the huge population increase.

On top of that, we likely will not see the extended period of low inflation that we had previous to the recent high inflationary period. Inflation dramatically impacts rent more so than it does ownership. In fact, inflation is owner favorable as it erodes the value of debt just as much as it does assets. While most rent has skyrocketed, I have paid less now than I did a year ago and much less than I did 3 years ago. (A year ago due to a successful tax appeal, dropping my tax by 17% and 3 years ago due to a refinance.) Renting is horribly at the mercy of inflation. The more inflation we see moving forward, then the more rent will go up while you largely can lock in your costs in home ownership.

There is such a huge pent up demand to buy right now. I have never seen so many people who want to buy but are not because they are waiting for interest rates to fall (horrible strategy) or have simply been priced out of their market due to higher valuations and interest rates. Sure, there is a degree of pent up supply as people are making decisions not to sell because they do not want to give up their 3% rate for an 7 or 8% rate but the reality is that that is only a portion of the inventory issue and for proof of that, look no further than a couple of years ago with extremely low interest rates and still very little inventory. For an explanation of that, see my first point again.

The only reason...., let me place emphasis on this, the ONLY reason rent has not gone higher is that it has simply priced people out of the market as well. This is because wages have not caught up to inflation. As wages go up, rent will go up even more. Why? Supply and demand. Of course, RE is all local so there may be areas where this is not the case and in fact, I think that urban centers will have less of an impact on rent than suburban and rural areas as many cities continue to strain under higher crime, deteriorating living conditions and much less of a reason to live in a city for professional reasons than before COVID.

There is no reason to expect valuations to decline significantly more than seasonal adjustments. Even that crap article concedes that it is unlikely. Though, as another point in error from an obvious amateur writer, is pointing to a recession as a cause of a drop in property valuations when in fact, historically, most recessions see property values increase. Of course the last recession is one of the outliers which is easy to understand as to why since the recession was caused by real estate. Why is that? Because recessions see interest rates lower and lower interest rates creates more buyers. More buyers is more demand. More demand high valuations unless supply increases similarly. As already pointed out, that is not happening and will not happen any time soon.

Is right now a great time to buy? No, not really to be very honest. But here is the important thing.... the future will not improve for an opportunity to buy. It will only get worse. When interest rates drop, demand will increase, people will start fighting over the low inventory again with multiple bids over asking price sight unseen waiving contingencies and more just to win a bid, property values will increase more because of this. Meanwhile, those who buy now, have their home. Have not been paying 100% interest in rent and can refinance to the new lower rates, lowering their costs of home ownership. Meanwhile, renters will be at the mercy of rental comps and every single penny that they spend, every single month will go to the landlords for them to never see again. On the other end, home owner is creating wealth in the very same expense while enjoying the costs going down.

But hey... I am sure some check in a foreign country that writes about luxury brands and cannabis has a much better grasp of what is going on and what will happen in real estate. I mean, I am just trying to trick people into owning for my own enrichment. Or some such nonsense.
 
Is right now a great time to buy? No, not really to be very honest. But here is the important thing.... the future will not improve for an opportunity to buy. It will only get worse.

Not sure how you can definitively say this unless you are the best economist on the planet.

If this economy sees a recession and unemployment spikes...it will impact the market. You are basically stating above that you know this will not happen.
 
Is right now a great time to buy? No, not really to be very honest. But here is the important thing.... the future will not improve for an opportunity to buy. It will only get worse.

Not sure how you can definitively say this unless you are the best economist on the planet.

If this economy sees a recession and unemployment spikes...it will impact the market. You are basically stating above that you know this will not happen.
I don't remember where I stated it definitively. Not much in life is an absolute certainty. Could I be wrong? Sure. It is possible. But I am basing my opinion off of knowledge and understanding of the subject matter backed by actual data. Not cherry picked data points from questionable sources with a very strong reason to encourage renting compiled by a writer in a foreign country with no discernible subject matter expertise.

I also stated that historically recessions see property increase in value. As I already noted, the big outlier to that is the last one which RE caused the recession. Why is that? A recession will cause the Fed to push rates down to generate economic activity. Lower interest rates means people psychologically are more apt to buy and have more buying power. More demand drives prices up.

You don't have to be a great economist to look at the population and look at inventory (or lack of) and I am no talking about people not selling homes. I am talking about the sever lack of home building for the last 15 years. We have added about 35 million in population in those 15 years. From 2010-2019 we built 6.9 million homes. You have to back to the 1940's to get a lower amount built. The population adjusted new build starts is half of what it was for the 80's, 90's and 2000's in the 2010's. For multi- family buildings, only 7% were for condos versus the historic averages is about 20%.

It doesn't take a nobel winning economist, it is simply supply and demand for one of the most basic human needs. We are simply far behind on homes for the population. We are building more now but my guess is that will slow with the interest rate environment which will only put more pressure on valuations. My whole argument is that waiting is a bad idea. This crap about now being the worst time to buy is laughable to the extreme. The worst time to buy, for anything you are buying, is when everyone else is trying to buy too. If you can buy now, if you can qualify for what you need and it fits your budget, then it makes absolute sense to buy now then take advantage of lower rates when they come with a refinance. Waiting for rates to go down is foolish. Waiting for some RE crash (I have seen some media basically heralding the next RE crash since basically 2012.... over and over.... sure, at some point their broken clock will be right but not soon). Even if rates on a mortgage are 10%... that still beats the 100% it costs on rent. In the long run, buying is absolutely the winner. Modern history has shown that even taking into account the big RE crashes along with it all. Americans who rent typically do not build wealth where as most Americans who have built wealth see a significant part of that in home ownership.

And let's be clear... whether people buy or become renters, there will still be mortgages to do. It is just a question of who is paying the mortgage... an owner or renter. I am happy to do DSCR loans all day long. I rather people I talk to benefit than a landlord benefit though.
 
In this brutal housing market, you'll need to make $115K to buy the typical US home.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022, per Redfin. The last two years of soaring mortgage rates and rising home prices have brought the fastest erosion in housing market affordability in modern history, and it's hurt first-time homebuyers the most.

A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022. That's the highest annual income necessary to afford a home on record. Meanwhile, wages have only increased by 5% since 2022. To conduct this analysis, Redfin compared median monthly mortgage payments for homebuyers in August 2023 and August 2022.

On Thursday, 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates crossed the 8% threshold, according to Mortgage News Daily. In March 2022, the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 3.56%. Meanwhile, the median price for a U.S. home was $420,000 in August, up 3% compared to August 2022. At the start of the pandemic, the median sales price was $260,062.

In the latest September existing home sales report, the median price remained 2.8% higher than in September 2022. On a month-to-month basis, the payment for the average U.S. buyer hovers around $2,866, an all-time high according to Redfin. Of course, high mortgage rates and home prices don't harm all-cash buyers and move-up buyers as greatly.
 
Weekly mortgage rates soar closer to 8%: Freddie Mac.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). Mortgage rates continued their march towards 8% this week as the Treasury yield surpassed 5%, according to weekly data from Freddie Mac. verage mortgage rates on 30-year fixed home loans continued their march towards 8% this week as the Treasury yield surpassed 5%. Rates have been steadily climbing for seven straight weeks, the longest consecutive increase since Spring 2022, according to Freddie Mac's Primary Mortgage Market Survey.

The average 30-year, fixed-rate mortgage rose to 7.79% as of Oct. 26. That's up 16 basis points from the previous week and up 71 basis points from 7.08% a year ago, the survey showed.

HousingWire's Mortgage Rates Center showed Optimal Blue's average 30-year fixed rate for conventional loans at 7.83% on Thursday, compared to 7.78% the previous week.
 
@Chadstroma I’ve got a question that pertains to myself but might be informative to others. I took the opportunity to tap into our equity and level up to our current home in 2020. We knew (or thought we did at the time) we were likely buying at the top of the market but as our daughter was 6 we were looking for a home we’d be in until she graduated so we’re weren’t super concerned about the price. We wanted the right home, and we found it.

We took the max conforming we could at the time (@ a 2.8%, yeh us. Lol) but needed a second too so went with a HELOC. Obviously the HELOC rate has gone up a ton since we did this (boo us). Now to the question.….

What are our best options to replace the HELOC (if there are any)? We‘re probably at 75/80% loan to value. TIA.
 
@Chadstroma I’ve got a question that pertains to myself but might be informative to others. I took the opportunity to tap into our equity and level up to our current home in 2020. We knew (or thought we did at the time) we were likely buying at the top of the market but as our daughter was 6 we were looking for a home we’d be in until she graduated so we’re weren’t super concerned about the price. We wanted the right home, and we found it.

We took the max conforming we could at the time (@ a 2.8%, yeh us. Lol) but needed a second too so went with a HELOC. Obviously the HELOC rate has gone up a ton since we did this (boo us). Now to the question.….

What are our best options to replace the HELOC (if there are any)? We‘re probably at 75/80% loan to value. TIA.
The good news is that you have a phenomenal rate on the first. The bad news is that you are basically stuck with that HELOC.

There really isn't much to replace a HELOC with other than a cash out refi but without knowing all the specific numbers of your transaction, filling in the unknowns with educated guesses, your blended rate (the final rate when you take all your debt with different rates and express than in one rate) is most likely going to be higher if you went that route as you would be giving up the 2.8% on a larger balance to lower your rate on a smaller balance. For example, a $100K balance with 2.8% and a $25K balance at 9% is a blended rate of 4.04% which is your total cost on the $125K.

The only other option with financing would be if your current HELOC doesn't have optimal terms on it. You can refinance a HELOC with another HELOC. Typically HELOCs have no upfront costs and then a pre-payment penalty (at least that was the industry standard when I was working for banks and slinging them), if you found a HELOC with better terms and you were past the pre-payment penalty period, then you could refinance the 2nd with a new one. If it doesn't cost you anything to do it then even a 25 bps difference could matter (depending on the balance and time held) but unless you just have a total dog poo HELOC, say you got it from Chase, and found a good one at a CU or community bank... there likely isn't much more of a difference out there than 25 bps.

Assuming you have no other debt currently and just the mortgage and the HELOC, I would attack it with a "avalanche method" where you pay the min on the mortgage every month and then throw everything you can into the HELOC to pay it off. This would work if you have other debt as well of course, you just rank the debts by interest rates with highest on top to the lowest, then number 2 on down the list you pay the min due each month and then pour all your available cash you can into the highest interest debt until paid off, and then go on to the next highest. I would, personally, however, stop at the mortgage. I would not pay extra principal to the mortgage ever. 2.8% is as close to free money as you are likely to ever get. The debt that you have on the mortgage is actually less now thanks to inflation (wahhooo! I guess there is some good that can come out of inflation) and the cost on that debt is not much at all. Once all other debt is paid off, I would put extra cash flow into investments to make a better return than the 2.8% you would be getting by paying extra to that mortgage.

I love to be the solutions guy to figure out ways to do things to better you but there isn't anything else out there. It is more about how you approach the debt most likley right now for you than it is what to do with the debt... if that makes sense.
 
@Chadstroma I’ve got a question that pertains to myself but might be informative to others. I took the opportunity to tap into our equity and level up to our current home in 2020. We knew (or thought we did at the time) we were likely buying at the top of the market but as our daughter was 6 we were looking for a home we’d be in until she graduated so we’re weren’t super concerned about the price. We wanted the right home, and we found it.

We took the max conforming we could at the time (@ a 2.8%, yeh us. Lol) but needed a second too so went with a HELOC. Obviously the HELOC rate has gone up a ton since we did this (boo us). Now to the question.….

What are our best options to replace the HELOC (if there are any)? We‘re probably at 75/80% loan to value. TIA.
The good news is that you have a phenomenal rate on the first. The bad news is that you are basically stuck with that HELOC.

There really isn't much to replace a HELOC with other than a cash out refi but without knowing all the specific numbers of your transaction, filling in the unknowns with educated guesses, your blended rate (the final rate when you take all your debt with different rates and express than in one rate) is most likely going to be higher if you went that route as you would be giving up the 2.8% on a larger balance to lower your rate on a smaller balance. For example, a $100K balance with 2.8% and a $25K balance at 9% is a blended rate of 4.04% which is your total cost on the $125K.

The only other option with financing would be if your current HELOC doesn't have optimal terms on it. You can refinance a HELOC with another HELOC. Typically HELOCs have no upfront costs and then a pre-payment penalty (at least that was the industry standard when I was working for banks and slinging them), if you found a HELOC with better terms and you were past the pre-payment penalty period, then you could refinance the 2nd with a new one. If it doesn't cost you anything to do it then even a 25 bps difference could matter (depending on the balance and time held) but unless you just have a total dog poo HELOC, say you got it from Chase, and found a good one at a CU or community bank... there likely isn't much more of a difference out there than 25 bps.

Assuming you have no other debt currently and just the mortgage and the HELOC, I would attack it with a "avalanche method" where you pay the min on the mortgage every month and then throw everything you can into the HELOC to pay it off. This would work if you have other debt as well of course, you just rank the debts by interest rates with highest on top to the lowest, then number 2 on down the list you pay the min due each month and then pour all your available cash you can into the highest interest debt until paid off, and then go on to the next highest. I would, personally, however, stop at the mortgage. I would not pay extra principal to the mortgage ever. 2.8% is as close to free money as you are likely to ever get. The debt that you have on the mortgage is actually less now thanks to inflation (wahhooo! I guess there is some good that can come out of inflation) and the cost on that debt is not much at all. Once all other debt is paid off, I would put extra cash flow into investments to make a better return than the 2.8% you would be getting by paying extra to that mortgage.

I love to be the solutions guy to figure out ways to do things to better you but there isn't anything else out there. It is more about how you approach the debt most likley right now for you than it is what to do with the debt... if that makes sense.
Thanks Chad. Appreciate your time. This is the conclusion I came to as well a few months back when so was really looking into it but I wanted to ask a pro to be sure. Thanks again
 
In this brutal housing market, you'll need to make $115K to buy the typical US home.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022, per Redfin. The last two years of soaring mortgage rates and rising home prices have brought the fastest erosion in housing market affordability in modern history, and it's hurt first-time homebuyers the most.

A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022. That's the highest annual income necessary to afford a home on record. Meanwhile, wages have only increased by 5% since 2022. To conduct this analysis, Redfin compared median monthly mortgage payments for homebuyers in August 2023 and August 2022.

On Thursday, 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates crossed the 8% threshold, according to Mortgage News Daily. In March 2022, the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 3.56%. Meanwhile, the median price for a U.S. home was $420,000 in August, up 3% compared to August 2022. At the start of the pandemic, the median sales price was $260,062.

In the latest September existing home sales report, the median price remained 2.8% higher than in September 2022. On a month-to-month basis, the payment for the average U.S. buyer hovers around $2,866, an all-time high according to Redfin. Of course, high mortgage rates and home prices don't harm all-cash buyers and move-up buyers as greatly.
I'm going to need a raise just to afford my property taxes. Due to property reappraisals taxes in Ohio are expected to go up from 25% - 75%.
 
In this brutal housing market, you'll need to make $115K to buy the typical US home.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022, per Redfin. The last two years of soaring mortgage rates and rising home prices have brought the fastest erosion in housing market affordability in modern history, and it's hurt first-time homebuyers the most.

A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022. That's the highest annual income necessary to afford a home on record. Meanwhile, wages have only increased by 5% since 2022. To conduct this analysis, Redfin compared median monthly mortgage payments for homebuyers in August 2023 and August 2022.

On Thursday, 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates crossed the 8% threshold, according to Mortgage News Daily. In March 2022, the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 3.56%. Meanwhile, the median price for a U.S. home was $420,000 in August, up 3% compared to August 2022. At the start of the pandemic, the median sales price was $260,062.

In the latest September existing home sales report, the median price remained 2.8% higher than in September 2022. On a month-to-month basis, the payment for the average U.S. buyer hovers around $2,866, an all-time high according to Redfin. Of course, high mortgage rates and home prices don't harm all-cash buyers and move-up buyers as greatly.
I'm going to need a raise just to afford my property taxes. Due to property reappraisals taxes in Ohio are expected to go up from 25% - 75%.
Yeah, so much for the "your house payment never changes" garbage.
 
In this brutal housing market, you'll need to make $115K to buy the typical US home.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022, per Redfin. The last two years of soaring mortgage rates and rising home prices have brought the fastest erosion in housing market affordability in modern history, and it's hurt first-time homebuyers the most.

A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022. That's the highest annual income necessary to afford a home on record. Meanwhile, wages have only increased by 5% since 2022. To conduct this analysis, Redfin compared median monthly mortgage payments for homebuyers in August 2023 and August 2022.

On Thursday, 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates crossed the 8% threshold, according to Mortgage News Daily. In March 2022, the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 3.56%. Meanwhile, the median price for a U.S. home was $420,000 in August, up 3% compared to August 2022. At the start of the pandemic, the median sales price was $260,062.

In the latest September existing home sales report, the median price remained 2.8% higher than in September 2022. On a month-to-month basis, the payment for the average U.S. buyer hovers around $2,866, an all-time high according to Redfin. Of course, high mortgage rates and home prices don't harm all-cash buyers and move-up buyers as greatly.
I'm going to need a raise just to afford my property taxes. Due to property reappraisals taxes in Ohio are expected to go up from 25% - 75%.
Yeah, so much for the "your house payment never changes" garbage.
Yeah, rental properties have higher property taxes as they don't have a homeowners exemption. Guess who pays for that? So much for renters are better off garbage.
 
In this brutal housing market, you'll need to make $115K to buy the typical US home.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022, per Redfin. The last two years of soaring mortgage rates and rising home prices have brought the fastest erosion in housing market affordability in modern history, and it's hurt first-time homebuyers the most.

A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022. That's the highest annual income necessary to afford a home on record. Meanwhile, wages have only increased by 5% since 2022. To conduct this analysis, Redfin compared median monthly mortgage payments for homebuyers in August 2023 and August 2022.

On Thursday, 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates crossed the 8% threshold, according to Mortgage News Daily. In March 2022, the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 3.56%. Meanwhile, the median price for a U.S. home was $420,000 in August, up 3% compared to August 2022. At the start of the pandemic, the median sales price was $260,062.

In the latest September existing home sales report, the median price remained 2.8% higher than in September 2022. On a month-to-month basis, the payment for the average U.S. buyer hovers around $2,866, an all-time high according to Redfin. Of course, high mortgage rates and home prices don't harm all-cash buyers and move-up buyers as greatly.
I'm going to need a raise just to afford my property taxes. Due to property reappraisals taxes in Ohio are expected to go up from 25% - 75%.
Have you done an appeal?
 
In this brutal housing market, you'll need to make $115K to buy the typical US home.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022, per Redfin. The last two years of soaring mortgage rates and rising home prices have brought the fastest erosion in housing market affordability in modern history, and it's hurt first-time homebuyers the most.

A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022. That's the highest annual income necessary to afford a home on record. Meanwhile, wages have only increased by 5% since 2022. To conduct this analysis, Redfin compared median monthly mortgage payments for homebuyers in August 2023 and August 2022.

On Thursday, 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates crossed the 8% threshold, according to Mortgage News Daily. In March 2022, the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 3.56%. Meanwhile, the median price for a U.S. home was $420,000 in August, up 3% compared to August 2022. At the start of the pandemic, the median sales price was $260,062.

In the latest September existing home sales report, the median price remained 2.8% higher than in September 2022. On a month-to-month basis, the payment for the average U.S. buyer hovers around $2,866, an all-time high according to Redfin. Of course, high mortgage rates and home prices don't harm all-cash buyers and move-up buyers as greatly.
I'm going to need a raise just to afford my property taxes. Due to property reappraisals taxes in Ohio are expected to go up from 25% - 75%.
Yeah, so much for the "your house payment never changes" garbage.
Yeah, rental properties have higher property taxes as they don't have a homeowners exemption. Guess who pays for that? So much for renters are better off garbage.
Huh? I sense defensiveness for some odd reason.
 
In this brutal housing market, you'll need to make $115K to buy the typical US home.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022, per Redfin. The last two years of soaring mortgage rates and rising home prices have brought the fastest erosion in housing market affordability in modern history, and it's hurt first-time homebuyers the most.

A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022. That's the highest annual income necessary to afford a home on record. Meanwhile, wages have only increased by 5% since 2022. To conduct this analysis, Redfin compared median monthly mortgage payments for homebuyers in August 2023 and August 2022.

On Thursday, 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates crossed the 8% threshold, according to Mortgage News Daily. In March 2022, the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 3.56%. Meanwhile, the median price for a U.S. home was $420,000 in August, up 3% compared to August 2022. At the start of the pandemic, the median sales price was $260,062.

In the latest September existing home sales report, the median price remained 2.8% higher than in September 2022. On a month-to-month basis, the payment for the average U.S. buyer hovers around $2,866, an all-time high according to Redfin. Of course, high mortgage rates and home prices don't harm all-cash buyers and move-up buyers as greatly.
I'm going to need a raise just to afford my property taxes. Due to property reappraisals taxes in Ohio are expected to go up from 25% - 75%.
Mine went up 28%. Throw a big insurance hike (no claims) and it's an expensive year. So much for inflation only being 5%.
 
In this brutal housing market, you'll need to make $115K to buy the typical US home.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022, per Redfin. The last two years of soaring mortgage rates and rising home prices have brought the fastest erosion in housing market affordability in modern history, and it's hurt first-time homebuyers the most.

A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022. That's the highest annual income necessary to afford a home on record. Meanwhile, wages have only increased by 5% since 2022. To conduct this analysis, Redfin compared median monthly mortgage payments for homebuyers in August 2023 and August 2022.

On Thursday, 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates crossed the 8% threshold, according to Mortgage News Daily. In March 2022, the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 3.56%. Meanwhile, the median price for a U.S. home was $420,000 in August, up 3% compared to August 2022. At the start of the pandemic, the median sales price was $260,062.

In the latest September existing home sales report, the median price remained 2.8% higher than in September 2022. On a month-to-month basis, the payment for the average U.S. buyer hovers around $2,866, an all-time high according to Redfin. Of course, high mortgage rates and home prices don't harm all-cash buyers and move-up buyers as greatly.
I'm going to need a raise just to afford my property taxes. Due to property reappraisals taxes in Ohio are expected to go up from 25% - 75%.
Have you done an appeal?
Nothing to really appeal. The revaluation is probably $50k less than I could sell it for. There is a bill that has passed the Ohio House to use a 3 year average instead of the current valuation.
 
In this brutal housing market, you'll need to make $115K to buy the typical US home.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022, per Redfin. The last two years of soaring mortgage rates and rising home prices have brought the fastest erosion in housing market affordability in modern history, and it's hurt first-time homebuyers the most.

A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022. That's the highest annual income necessary to afford a home on record. Meanwhile, wages have only increased by 5% since 2022. To conduct this analysis, Redfin compared median monthly mortgage payments for homebuyers in August 2023 and August 2022.

On Thursday, 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates crossed the 8% threshold, according to Mortgage News Daily. In March 2022, the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 3.56%. Meanwhile, the median price for a U.S. home was $420,000 in August, up 3% compared to August 2022. At the start of the pandemic, the median sales price was $260,062.

In the latest September existing home sales report, the median price remained 2.8% higher than in September 2022. On a month-to-month basis, the payment for the average U.S. buyer hovers around $2,866, an all-time high according to Redfin. Of course, high mortgage rates and home prices don't harm all-cash buyers and move-up buyers as greatly.
I'm going to need a raise just to afford my property taxes. Due to property reappraisals taxes in Ohio are expected to go up from 25% - 75%.
Yeah, so much for the "your house payment never changes" garbage.
Yeah, rental properties have higher property taxes as they don't have a homeowners exemption. Guess who pays for that? So much for renters are better off garbage.
All real estate is local. I have been much better off personally renting, but I’d consider buying again when the situation makes sense.
 
In this brutal housing market, you'll need to make $115K to buy the typical US home.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022, per Redfin. The last two years of soaring mortgage rates and rising home prices have brought the fastest erosion in housing market affordability in modern history, and it's hurt first-time homebuyers the most.

A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022. That's the highest annual income necessary to afford a home on record. Meanwhile, wages have only increased by 5% since 2022. To conduct this analysis, Redfin compared median monthly mortgage payments for homebuyers in August 2023 and August 2022.

On Thursday, 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates crossed the 8% threshold, according to Mortgage News Daily. In March 2022, the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 3.56%. Meanwhile, the median price for a U.S. home was $420,000 in August, up 3% compared to August 2022. At the start of the pandemic, the median sales price was $260,062.

In the latest September existing home sales report, the median price remained 2.8% higher than in September 2022. On a month-to-month basis, the payment for the average U.S. buyer hovers around $2,866, an all-time high according to Redfin. Of course, high mortgage rates and home prices don't harm all-cash buyers and move-up buyers as greatly.
I'm going to need a raise just to afford my property taxes. Due to property reappraisals taxes in Ohio are expected to go up from 25% - 75%.
Yeah, so much for the "your house payment never changes" garbage.
Yeah, rental properties have higher property taxes as they don't have a homeowners exemption. Guess who pays for that? So much for renters are better off garbage.
All real estate is local. I have been much better off personally renting, but I’d consider buying again when the situation makes sense.

Yeah, for example my daughter is renting a small house for $750 a month. If she were to purchase that house or an equivalent, the house would cost roughly 100k. The payment with taxes and insurance would be somewhere around $950 a month (after factoring 3% down as a small down payment).

Looking at an amortization table, the first payment shows a whopping 65 bucks going towards the principle.

So, 950-750+65 = $135 deficit per month to start, not even factoring in home maintenance. She cant afford a home any more expensive than that (maybe not even a home for 100k), so I can't see how anyone could rationalize how buying is better right now for her (assuming she saves her extra money, which she does for the most part).
 
All real estate is local. I have been much better off personally renting, but I’d consider buying again when the situation makes sense.

Yeah, for example my daughter is renting a small house for $750 a month. If she were to purchase that house or an equivalent, the house would cost roughly 100k. The payment with taxes and insurance would be somewhere around $950 a month (after factoring 3% down as a small down payment).

Looking at an amortization table, the first payment shows a whopping 65 bucks going towards the principle.

So, 950-750+65 = $135 deficit per month to start, not even factoring in home maintenance. She cant afford a home any more expensive than that (maybe not even a home for 100k), so I can't see how anyone could rationalize how buying is better right now for her (assuming she saves her extra money, which she does for the most part).
One additional financial component is the down payment/principal part and what it might earn in an alternative asset class vs. house appreciation. Plus that money's corresponding liquidity. With ultra-safe CD's paying >5% right now that's not nothing.

Everyone's decision is different of course dependent on multiple factors but this is a well thought out analysis.
 
Yeah, for example my daughter is renting a small house for $750 a month. If she were to purchase that house or an equivalent, the house would cost roughly 100k. The payment with taxes and insurance would be somewhere around $950 a month (after factoring 3% down as a small down payment).

Looking at an amortization table, the first payment shows a whopping 65 bucks going towards the principle.

So, 950-750+65 = $135 deficit per month to start, not even factoring in home maintenance. She cant afford a home any more expensive than that (maybe not even a home for 100k), so I can't see how anyone could rationalize how buying is better right now for her (assuming she saves her extra money, which she does for the most part).
Exactly.

People shouldn't pretend there is only one way to build wealth
 
In this brutal housing market, you'll need to make $115K to buy the typical US home.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022, per Redfin. The last two years of soaring mortgage rates and rising home prices have brought the fastest erosion in housing market affordability in modern history, and it's hurt first-time homebuyers the most.

A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022. That's the highest annual income necessary to afford a home on record. Meanwhile, wages have only increased by 5% since 2022. To conduct this analysis, Redfin compared median monthly mortgage payments for homebuyers in August 2023 and August 2022.

On Thursday, 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates crossed the 8% threshold, according to Mortgage News Daily. In March 2022, the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 3.56%. Meanwhile, the median price for a U.S. home was $420,000 in August, up 3% compared to August 2022. At the start of the pandemic, the median sales price was $260,062.

In the latest September existing home sales report, the median price remained 2.8% higher than in September 2022. On a month-to-month basis, the payment for the average U.S. buyer hovers around $2,866, an all-time high according to Redfin. Of course, high mortgage rates and home prices don't harm all-cash buyers and move-up buyers as greatly.
I'm going to need a raise just to afford my property taxes. Due to property reappraisals taxes in Ohio are expected to go up from 25% - 75%.
Yeah, so much for the "your house payment never changes" garbage.
Yeah, rental properties have higher property taxes as they don't have a homeowners exemption. Guess who pays for that? So much for renters are better off garbage.
All real estate is local. I have been much better off personally renting, but I’d consider buying again when the situation makes sense.

Yeah, for example my daughter is renting a small house for $750 a month. If she were to purchase that house or an equivalent, the house would cost roughly 100k. The payment with taxes and insurance would be somewhere around $950 a month (after factoring 3% down as a small down payment).

Looking at an amortization table, the first payment shows a whopping 65 bucks going towards the principle.

So, 950-750+65 = $135 deficit per month to start, not even factoring in home maintenance. She cant afford a home any more expensive than that (maybe not even a home for 100k), so I can't see how anyone could rationalize how buying is better right now for her (assuming she saves her extra money, which she does for the most part).
where can one buy a house for 100K?
 
In this brutal housing market, you'll need to make $115K to buy the typical US home.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022, per Redfin. The last two years of soaring mortgage rates and rising home prices have brought the fastest erosion in housing market affordability in modern history, and it's hurt first-time homebuyers the most.

A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022. That's the highest annual income necessary to afford a home on record. Meanwhile, wages have only increased by 5% since 2022. To conduct this analysis, Redfin compared median monthly mortgage payments for homebuyers in August 2023 and August 2022.

On Thursday, 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates crossed the 8% threshold, according to Mortgage News Daily. In March 2022, the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 3.56%. Meanwhile, the median price for a U.S. home was $420,000 in August, up 3% compared to August 2022. At the start of the pandemic, the median sales price was $260,062.

In the latest September existing home sales report, the median price remained 2.8% higher than in September 2022. On a month-to-month basis, the payment for the average U.S. buyer hovers around $2,866, an all-time high according to Redfin. Of course, high mortgage rates and home prices don't harm all-cash buyers and move-up buyers as greatly.
I'm going to need a raise just to afford my property taxes. Due to property reappraisals taxes in Ohio are expected to go up from 25% - 75%.
Yeah, so much for the "your house payment never changes" garbage.
Yeah, rental properties have higher property taxes as they don't have a homeowners exemption. Guess who pays for that? So much for renters are better off garbage.
All real estate is local. I have been much better off personally renting, but I’d consider buying again when the situation makes sense.

Yeah, for example my daughter is renting a small house for $750 a month. If she were to purchase that house or an equivalent, the house would cost roughly 100k. The payment with taxes and insurance would be somewhere around $950 a month (after factoring 3% down as a small down payment).

Looking at an amortization table, the first payment shows a whopping 65 bucks going towards the principle.

So, 950-750+65 = $135 deficit per month to start, not even factoring in home maintenance. She cant afford a home any more expensive than that (maybe not even a home for 100k), so I can't see how anyone could rationalize how buying is better right now for her (assuming she saves her extra money, which she does for the most part).
where can one buy a house for 100K?

Yeah this blows me away that this is a thing anywhere in the US.
 
Huh? I sense defensiveness for some odd reason.
It sounded like you were taking a dig on what I have explained previously in how renting is much more sensitive to inflationary pressure than home ownership. Simply, mortgages, largely are fixed interest so then fixed cost over 30 years. Yes, taxes and insurance are variable and tend to go up but those are the same with rent and even more so as taxes and insurance cost more for rental properties than primary residences. On top of that, with rent, your cost is 100% which is obviously much higher than a 8% mortgage. You are also giving up and equity in property valuations rising.

I have a client about a year ago. She was on the fence of whether to move forward to apply for a mortgage or not. She had been renting the same property for 10 years. She had been happy because the landlord was always good to them. Fixed things right away if they broke. Only small increases in rent every few years (until recently). Always nice. Did not freak out if she was a day or two late in getting the rent in. The whole thing. I said, ok, let's take a fair look at the difference over those 10 years for you. I walked her through it all. The cost of her rent, which was easy to add up since there is no return on that sunk cost. I then gave an educated guess on the mortgage rate for her which conservatively we put at 5% and that she would have carried that loan without refinancing even when rates went lower. Adding in an insurance estimate and taxes, which to make things easier on me, I took the current tax assessment without the homeowners exemption and the current insurance costs at that time and applied it over the 10 years, again, to be conservative so as to not give a unfair picture. I also added in about $100 a month for repair and maintenance for the property. When everything was laid out and counted up, the cash flow was roughly about the same and the difference in net worth to this woman was nearly $200K. She literally started crying on the phone. She told me that they thought about buying back then but that renting was so much easier. She had no idea how much of a real difference it would have made to their lives. That is freaking heart breaking to be on the other end of that call. I can't tell you how that feels. It sucks.

I operate a FB group that has over 10K people in it. It is centered around credit repair. The vast majority of the people in the group are renters. Well over 90%. A few months back, I asked a simple question after having a conversation with my sister who's crappy little 1 bedroom apartment she had rent was going up $350 a month... from just under $1k a month to about $1300 a month. I asked what people were seeing in terms of their rent. Was it remaining the same or was it going up. If it was going up, how much was it going up? Tons of responses and most were in a $100-400 range of rent increases a month.

Meanwhile, we bought out current home in 2011. I am paying less now than I am when we bought the home. How? We refinanced to an even lower rate and I have appealed my taxes to get lower assessments. Our successful tax appeal lowered my cost of property taxes by 17%. Our insurance is coming due soon, so I do expect to lose some of that cash flow as insurance costs have gone up but there is no doubt from a purely cash flow perspective that renting would have been a horrible decision. This is not even getting to the wealth creation of equity through the reduction in principal and increased valuation on the property. The property is worth $150K more than it was when we bought it. There is further equity in that we put 20% down and have been paying on the mortgage for 12 years. We did take some equity out along the way. But it isn't just this house for us but me viewing my life. The times when I thought about buying but 'renting is so much easier and then I am free to move around' and the cost of those decisions. Now, sure, I understand the home ownership isn't all roses.... I have lived it. I did have a condo, my first RE purchase, that we had to end up doing a consent foreclosure on. But the funny thing is, that when I felt bad about that, at some point I decided to do the math. I figured out the cost of owning that home and walking away with nothing versus if I had not bought and kept renting. It still ended up being financially favorable to have bought that property, owned it for 5 years and then walk away from it than if I had rented.

Now, all that said, is it 100% of the time that buying is better than renting? No. Absolutely not. I remember having a conversation with a friend that rented. We discussed it and he wanted to rent because for his work, he could do it anywhere (this is well before COVID and remote work being more common) and it was important for him to use that freedom. One way that he did was that he would move to new places all over the country.... live in a city for about a year, pick up and go move somewhere else. He was a single guy with no kids (I kind of suspected he was gay but it never came up to confirm or deny and I don't really care either way to ever ask) and he said that knew that he was 'paying for that lifestyle' but that he was willing to do so because he really enjoyed doing that. Obviously homeownership would not make sense for him. There are other scenarios where renting make sense. I don't deny that. What I do fight against is this odd position that renting is superior to homeownership for the vast majority of people. It is demonstrably false.

Renting vs buying is largely a financial decision. Good financial decisions should never be made on the present but taking into account lessons learned from the past and making the best educated guesses you can about the future. No one knows the future. Things can change. We know this. But we also know that you can have a pretty good idea of what will happen if you consider the data. This is even more true for real estate as over time, even with downturns, even as significant as what we saw in the both the Great Depression and the Great Recession, you will see the same thing over time. This also includes drastic local situations. It is hard to come up with one more pronounced than the Detroit area where you could buy houses for even under $10K around the late 2000's. I was curious and looked up a few random houses in the greater Detroit area. One example, property sold for $17K in 2013. The property is now worth $175K. The thing about RE is even when taking into consideration local differences and taking into account market crashes, real estate appreciates. And not just appreciates but does so consistently. The longer the time period, the more ownership is superior to renting.

Yes, right now, most properties you would buy, if you were renting the same property instead would have a higher cashflow cost. However, taking into consideration the most likely outcomes for real estate in the near future, it will only get harder to buy. What does that mean? There is a huge amount of demand that is being held back right now. That demand many times has been priced out of the market due to appreciation and rates rising. They often are hoping for a real estate crash or rates to go down so that they can buy in the future. Looking at the data, a RE crash is extremely unlikely anytime in the next few years. Rates will go down. When they do these people will be looking to buy. What will result is something that is likely similar to what we saw in the RE recently with rapid appreciation of properties as multiple over asking price offers are received mere hours after being listed on MLS by a number of desperate buyers. Lower rates will not save prospective buyers, it will make it harder for them to buy. It will only put them in a continued position of renting and long term renting keeps the poor forever poor. Meanwhile, as wages increase, rents will continue to increase.

I am passionate about this, not because this is my job and I will make money or not. It is ridiculous to say that and pure ignorance to suggest someone who advocates for homeownership is pushing a racket. In fact, the racket are the landlords pushing renting. Landlords are not renting property out of the goodness of their hearts. They are doing so to make money. The same money that a home owner would make (even more actually). I can and do mortgages for landlords just as I can for home owners. In fact, DSCR loans are usually much easier loans to do than a FTHB loan. Also, it is easier to get a few investors who will buy multiple properties than try finding the one person buying one home. This is not an argument based on my benefit. It is one that as someone who likes being an advocate for others betterment is about what I have known and seen through my years working in financial services.
 

Yeah, for example my daughter is renting a small house for $750 a month. If she were to purchase that house or an equivalent, the house would cost roughly 100k. The payment with taxes and insurance would be somewhere around $950 a month (after factoring 3% down as a small down payment).

Looking at an amortization table, the first payment shows a whopping 65 bucks going towards the principle.

So, 950-750+65 = $135 deficit per month to start, not even factoring in home maintenance. She cant afford a home any more expensive than that (maybe not even a home for 100k), so I can't see how anyone could rationalize how buying is better right now for her (assuming she saves her extra money, which she does for the most part).
The rationale is actually pretty simple. In the long run, it will be better for her.

My advice is to others and would be to her, if she can afford it in her budget and she can qualify with no expectation of her needing to move in the next few years, she should buy. Rates will come down and she can refinance which will significantly lower her cost. Properties will appreciate which will make it harder for her to buy later unless she sees a drastic increase in her wages. Rents are likely to continue to increase as well. So, if she buys, she starts creating wealth now. If she rents, it is a cost that keeps her drained and an uphill battle to create wealth.

And yes, the amortization schedule on a mortgage has the amount to principal extremely low as most of the first payment services the interest. The next payment after that would be $65.15 to principal (or something similar)... and the next a little more and a little more. It snowballs. And each consecutive payment is paying more and more to principal. At these rates, if you could do it, then paying extra principal could make financial sense when you get a bonus or just have some extra cash in a month. That increases that snowball. Then, rates go down, you refinance and have the option to either increase your cash flow with a longer term, be more aggressive to pay off faster with a shorter term or match the same term you already are at. And again, it continues, more and more.... now a few years later, the principal reduction is several hundred a month. Now through that same period of time, the property isn't worth $100K, it is now worth $115K because of appreciation. There is several thousand dollars worth of wealth created to her.

Now compare that to the amortization schedule of renting.

I am not saying it is easy. I am not saying that your daughter can do it right now. She might be stuck with no option to buy. I get it. I talk to people like her all over the country every single day. Many of which I will never do a loan for (they could never buy or they could end up using another lender) but I do my best to help them. I can't sleep well at night unless I am doing my best to help other people with the knowledge and skillsets that I have. It is rough right now. Super hard on a lot of people. I think it is only going to get harder. I would love to see as many people put themselves in the best position possible for their future with the decisions that they make now. This is why I advocate passionately for this.
 
Yeah, for example my daughter is renting a small house for $750 a month. If she were to purchase that house or an equivalent, the house would cost roughly 100k. The payment with taxes and insurance would be somewhere around $950 a month (after factoring 3% down as a small down payment).

Looking at an amortization table, the first payment shows a whopping 65 bucks going towards the principle.

So, 950-750+65 = $135 deficit per month to start, not even factoring in home maintenance. She cant afford a home any more expensive than that (maybe not even a home for 100k), so I can't see how anyone could rationalize how buying is better right now for her (assuming she saves her extra money, which she does for the most part).
Exactly.

People shouldn't pretend there is only one way to build wealth
Curious on who said anything to allude to 'pretending there iis only one way to build wealth'? Quotes would be helpful.
 
Rates will come down and she can refinance which will significantly lower her cost.
Or long-term rates may go up even further, which is what many economists are predicting. The entire reason for the recent spike in the 10-year Treasury is skittishness about the U.S national debt. That's not going away anytime soon.

Most of the recent jump in Treasury yields is due to a so-called term premium, said Andrew Hunter, deputy chief U.S. economist at Capital Economics.

Basically, investors are demanding a higher return to lend their money to the U.S. government — in this case, for 10 years. One reason: Investors seem skittish about rising U.S. government debt, Hunter said. Generally, investors demand a higher return if they perceive a greater risk of the government’s inability to pay back debt in the future.


For those who are planning to buy a home, this is really bad news,” said Eugenio Aleman, chief economist at Raymond James.

Mortgage rates will probably continue to go up and that will push affordability farther away.”

 
In this brutal housing market, you'll need to make $115K to buy the typical US home.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022, per Redfin. The last two years of soaring mortgage rates and rising home prices have brought the fastest erosion in housing market affordability in modern history, and it's hurt first-time homebuyers the most.

A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022. That's the highest annual income necessary to afford a home on record. Meanwhile, wages have only increased by 5% since 2022. To conduct this analysis, Redfin compared median monthly mortgage payments for homebuyers in August 2023 and August 2022.

On Thursday, 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates crossed the 8% threshold, according to Mortgage News Daily. In March 2022, the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 3.56%. Meanwhile, the median price for a U.S. home was $420,000 in August, up 3% compared to August 2022. At the start of the pandemic, the median sales price was $260,062.

In the latest September existing home sales report, the median price remained 2.8% higher than in September 2022. On a month-to-month basis, the payment for the average U.S. buyer hovers around $2,866, an all-time high according to Redfin. Of course, high mortgage rates and home prices don't harm all-cash buyers and move-up buyers as greatly.
Don't articles like this give you pause when talking about the future trajectory of housing prices? It seems something has to give when affordability is so bad. To me, housing prices must fall to bring costs more inline with incomes.
 

Yeah, for example my daughter is renting a small house for $750 a month. If she were to purchase that house or an equivalent, the house would cost roughly 100k. The payment with taxes and insurance would be somewhere around $950 a month (after factoring 3% down as a small down payment).

Looking at an amortization table, the first payment shows a whopping 65 bucks going towards the principle.

So, 950-750+65 = $135 deficit per month to start, not even factoring in home maintenance. She cant afford a home any more expensive than that (maybe not even a home for 100k), so I can't see how anyone could rationalize how buying is better right now for her (assuming she saves her extra money, which she does for the most part).
The rationale is actually pretty simple. In the long run, it will be better for her.

My advice is to others and would be to her, if she can afford it in her budget and she can qualify with no expectation of her needing to move in the next few years, she should buy. Rates will come down and she can refinance which will significantly lower her cost. Properties will appreciate which will make it harder for her to buy later unless she sees a drastic increase in her wages. Rents are likely to continue to increase as well. So, if she buys, she starts creating wealth now. If she rents, it is a cost that keeps her drained and an uphill battle to create wealth.

And yes, the amortization schedule on a mortgage has the amount to principal extremely low as most of the first payment services the interest. The next payment after that would be $65.15 to principal (or something similar)... and the next a little more and a little more. It snowballs. And each consecutive payment is paying more and more to principal. At these rates, if you could do it, then paying extra principal could make financial sense when you get a bonus or just have some extra cash in a month. That increases that snowball. Then, rates go down, you refinance and have the option to either increase your cash flow with a longer term, be more aggressive to pay off faster with a shorter term or match the same term you already are at. And again, it continues, more and more.... now a few years later, the principal reduction is several hundred a month. Now through that same period of time, the property isn't worth $100K, it is now worth $115K because of appreciation. There is several thousand dollars worth of wealth created to her.

Now compare that to the amortization schedule of renting.

I am not saying it is easy. I am not saying that your daughter can do it right now. She might be stuck with no option to buy. I get it. I talk to people like her all over the country every single day. Many of which I will never do a loan for (they could never buy or they could end up using another lender) but I do my best to help them. I can't sleep well at night unless I am doing my best to help other people with the knowledge and skillsets that I have. It is rough right now. Super hard on a lot of people. I think it is only going to get harder. I would love to see as many people put themselves in the best position possible for their future with the decisions that they make now. This is why I advocate passionately for this.
Long story short, it's obviously a much better move for her to continue to rent for a few more years before looking to purchase anything. It's not just because of the current housing price issue, but even if that was the only factor, it would still make sense renting right now and saving more.
 
In this brutal housing market, you'll need to make $115K to buy the typical US home.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022, per Redfin. The last two years of soaring mortgage rates and rising home prices have brought the fastest erosion in housing market affordability in modern history, and it's hurt first-time homebuyers the most.

A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022. That's the highest annual income necessary to afford a home on record. Meanwhile, wages have only increased by 5% since 2022. To conduct this analysis, Redfin compared median monthly mortgage payments for homebuyers in August 2023 and August 2022.

On Thursday, 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates crossed the 8% threshold, according to Mortgage News Daily. In March 2022, the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 3.56%. Meanwhile, the median price for a U.S. home was $420,000 in August, up 3% compared to August 2022. At the start of the pandemic, the median sales price was $260,062.

In the latest September existing home sales report, the median price remained 2.8% higher than in September 2022. On a month-to-month basis, the payment for the average U.S. buyer hovers around $2,866, an all-time high according to Redfin. Of course, high mortgage rates and home prices don't harm all-cash buyers and move-up buyers as greatly.
I'm going to need a raise just to afford my property taxes. Due to property reappraisals taxes in Ohio are expected to go up from 25% - 75%.
Yeah, so much for the "your house payment never changes" garbage.
Yeah, rental properties have higher property taxes as they don't have a homeowners exemption. Guess who pays for that? So much for renters are better off garbage.
All real estate is local. I have been much better off personally renting, but I’d consider buying again when the situation makes sense.

Yeah, for example my daughter is renting a small house for $750 a month. If she were to purchase that house or an equivalent, the house would cost roughly 100k. The payment with taxes and insurance would be somewhere around $950 a month (after factoring 3% down as a small down payment).

Looking at an amortization table, the first payment shows a whopping 65 bucks going towards the principle.

So, 950-750+65 = $135 deficit per month to start, not even factoring in home maintenance. She cant afford a home any more expensive than that (maybe not even a home for 100k), so I can't see how anyone could rationalize how buying is better right now for her (assuming she saves her extra money, which she does for the most part).
where can one buy a house for 100K?
I bought my current rental condo in 2015 for 40k, only out a few thousand into it.
It would sell right now for about 100k.

That same condo in a big city is probably 500k.
 
In this brutal housing market, you'll need to make $115K to buy the typical US home.
(HousingWire by Sarah Marx). A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022, per Redfin. The last two years of soaring mortgage rates and rising home prices have brought the fastest erosion in housing market affordability in modern history, and it's hurt first-time homebuyers the most.

A homebuyer must earn $114,627 to afford the median-priced U.S. home, up 15% ($15,285) from a year ago and up more than 50% since the start of the pandemic in early 2022. That's the highest annual income necessary to afford a home on record. Meanwhile, wages have only increased by 5% since 2022. To conduct this analysis, Redfin compared median monthly mortgage payments for homebuyers in August 2023 and August 2022.

On Thursday, 30-year fixed-rate mortgage rates crossed the 8% threshold, according to Mortgage News Daily. In March 2022, the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage averaged 3.56%. Meanwhile, the median price for a U.S. home was $420,000 in August, up 3% compared to August 2022. At the start of the pandemic, the median sales price was $260,062.

In the latest September existing home sales report, the median price remained 2.8% higher than in September 2022. On a month-to-month basis, the payment for the average U.S. buyer hovers around $2,866, an all-time high according to Redfin. Of course, high mortgage rates and home prices don't harm all-cash buyers and move-up buyers as greatly.
I'm going to need a raise just to afford my property taxes. Due to property reappraisals taxes in Ohio are expected to go up from 25% - 75%.
Yeah, so much for the "your house payment never changes" garbage.
Yeah, rental properties have higher property taxes as they don't have a homeowners exemption. Guess who pays for that? So much for renters are better off garbage.
All real estate is local. I have been much better off personally renting, but I’d consider buying again when the situation makes sense.

Yeah, for example my daughter is renting a small house for $750 a month. If she were to purchase that house or an equivalent, the house would cost roughly 100k. The payment with taxes and insurance would be somewhere around $950 a month (after factoring 3% down as a small down payment).

Looking at an amortization table, the first payment shows a whopping 65 bucks going towards the principle.

So, 950-750+65 = $135 deficit per month to start, not even factoring in home maintenance. She cant afford a home any more expensive than that (maybe not even a home for 100k), so I can't see how anyone could rationalize how buying is better right now for her (assuming she saves her extra money, which she does for the most part).
where can one buy a house for 100K?

Yeah this blows me away that this is a thing anywhere in the US.
It blows me away that there are places people pay 900k for houses that are basically starter homes.
 

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