joffer
Footballguy
of course there wasn’t bipartisan work going on, the AG was trying to bury it, which was unprecedented.
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My transition from supporting Obama to Trump (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter NorvilleBarnes
- Start date
dkp993
Footballguy
If bipartisan work is a requirement to justify how a POTUS has been received by congress then we problems need to go back a few administrations to find someone who wasn’t being impeached the moment they got elected.
dkp993
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Already discussed and already shown as false.
Of course. Time to try the same bs again.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Then you will be able to bring a link where any significant democrat or number of democrats looked to impeach him from the get go.Sorry, you are wrong. It has not been shown as wrong. Your opinion is not the final say around here as much as you like to believe.
Please prove your assertion...try with a credible link just once.
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bostonfred
Footballguy
Yeah this is obviously a huge sticking point, and it's the thing that Trump supporters have universally refused to go into detail on.
What do you think Trump did with the Ukraine? Do you think it was illegal?
I'm not asking whether there's enough evidence to convict him. I'm asking whether you believe he did something illegal and got caught.
What do you think Trump did with Russia before the election? What do you think he's done for Russia since?
Again - why do you think he tried to fire Mueller? Why did they take the infamous Trump tower meeting? Why did Trump literally ask Russia to interfere on national television, and why did Russia then interfere that day?
What do you think Trump did with the Saudis before the election? And Erdogan? What do you think he's done for them since? Why do you think he did nothing about Khashoggi? Or pulled troops out of Syria, when all of his generals and both parties in Congress told him not to? Who benefited?
What do you think Trump is doing right now with foreign governments to win in 2020?
What else is he going to do for the dictators of the world who help him get reelected?
What actions is he taking to ensure a fair election process? What actions do you think McConnell is taking in the Senate?
Why was the previous director of national intelligence asked to resign? Why was the new director of national intelligence hired without any experience in any similar role?
You call this political theater but I see a pattern of behavior including very questionable policy that seems to directly benefit bad actors who helped trump get elected.
I'm happy to discuss any or all of it and why this is not normal. You seem to be making the case that everyone in Washington is crooked so who cares. And maybe you're right. But if you help get him rejected it will get so much worse. They're supposed to face consequences when they get caught, not rewards.
But don't trust me that people are supposed to face consequences when they get caught being corrupt. Trust trump. Because he was trying to catch Biden and thought it would hurt him in the election. He has openly admitted that much. He thinks other people who get caught being corrupt are supposed to face consequences, but not him.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
There wasn't any. Not by Democratic leadership. As you were forwarding this subject as one of the things that seems to keep you in the Trump camp, I'd think it is related to the point of the thread.
I noticed you didn't feel like responding to my previous question asking for more details about specific aspects of Obama and Trump that lead you to support them. If the goal was for you to convey how/why you've ended up where you are, giving those kinds of details would be useful in us understanding where you're coming from.
James Daulton
Footballguy
What about Trump could make one support him? Our economy is a house of cards the same as it was during Obama's term. GDP is flat, wage growth is flat (except for liberal state/company minimum wage increases), the debt is exploding, the trade deficit is at all time highs, nothing changed on healthcare, illegal immigration at all time highs, etc etc.
He's absolutely hurt our relationship with our allies, has gone out of his way to praise dictators, and he's openly mocked by other world leaders. He interjects himself into the judiciary, takes responsibility for only good things, and lies constantly.
What about Trump appeals to you? The fact that he calls people he doesn't like childish names and uses twitter to "own libs"?
Is it really all about being pro life for you?
He's absolutely hurt our relationship with our allies, has gone out of his way to praise dictators, and he's openly mocked by other world leaders. He interjects himself into the judiciary, takes responsibility for only good things, and lies constantly.
What about Trump appeals to you? The fact that he calls people he doesn't like childish names and uses twitter to "own libs"?
Is it really all about being pro life for you?
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
So what you are saying is trump is outback steakhouse.With all due respect, that's like going from supporting a juicy ribeye steak to an immoral, lying tough piece of sirloin. Please feel free to not vote again this year.
I have seen their commercials where a guy with a lovely accent talks about a juicy delicious sirloin. When i go to outback all I see are pieces of leather on plates.
Nobody can taste it because they all ate a bloomin onion or awesome blossom not sure which one is chilis or outback.
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Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
It was the republicans that were promising to initiate impeachment proceedings over Hillary's e-mail once she was elected. Not the other way around. But it wasn't more than a few weeks into office when the president declared that he would [arguably] violate the emoluments clause which was [arguably] impeachable in and of itself. So weeks in to office the president was constantly engaged in or revealed to be engaged in activity that at the very least came to the level where reasonable people could reasonably argue was impeachable. So there was that constant.
But the House and Senate were controlled by the GOP so this idea that there was an effort to impeach all along is silly. And it is more ridiculous when the moment the democrats gain control over the House the leadership stated "lets slow down on impeachment talk" despite having plenty of things to open investigations over.
So ultimately this Dems were looking to impeach from the get go is just projection of the GOP behavior that you guys understand. The Democrats for better or worst (a constant topic around here) don't behave the same way.
GoBirds
Footballguy
More like gas station beef jerky to filet if teleprompter sugar coated lies aren't your thing.With all due respect, that's like going from supporting a juicy ribeye steak to an immoral, lying tough piece of sirloin. Please feel free to not vote again this year.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Ask it this way. Would you be fired from your job if while discussing business transactions with a customer, client, vendor, whatever you asked for a couple of personal favors?
The Commish
Footballguy
I haven't kept up with this thread closely, but when I see that you've posted I come back. At least I try to, because I like to understand these sorts of conversions. I missed this analogy the first time and I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure that's what is really happening in dialogue. I'm sure it is in several cases, but in many that I've been part of and observed it's a bit different. It doesn't seem to be that the math people don't like the color people using color or vice versa (though I do agree that sort of argument has been a staple in the past...."hey, your criteria are wrong, you should be using these instead"). There's a clear difference in today's world as I see it. Today, we have people saying that blue and yellow make purple or people saying 2+2=5. And people are pushing back on that based on a "facts" perspective. We can't even get to the traditional arguments where we are arguing about what criteria to use.
The secondary argument I read and hear frequently is closer to what you describe where people switch their criteria depending on the individual being discussed. I suspect this is a product of the "lesser of two evils" approach which many have fully bought into but can't figure out why they are constantly left with two crappy options.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Would it matter if you used hundreds of millions of dollars of your company's money as leverage to extract those personal favors?
The Commish
Footballguy
And I can see this absolutely as a reason to bail on the Dems. The reasoning is legit. I have no issue with that. Where I pause is the decision to jump on the side of another group doing the exact same thing. That seems completely illogical to me. All you've done is jump from one group of hating hypocrites to another. If you guys could explain your logic here that'd be awesome because it makes no sense to me.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
No, because a favor worth more than a trinket gets most people fired either way. Including heads of companies. Including politicians, but admittedly this is muddier.
The Commish
Footballguy
And I feel like this needs to be bumped again and get a perspective from @NorvilleBarnes if you're so inclined GB. If I'm understanding your position to be it's more specific than "The Dems wanted him out from day one". It's more like "There have been Dems talking about impeaching him from day one" which, to me, is fair. However, I do agree with @dkp993 that the way it was presented initially reads more like all the Dems were after him day one and that I don't agree with and their actions seem to support that.I'd also like to push back on "the Dems wanted him out from day one" stuff too. If that were true they'd have brought charges against him for the Stormy Daniels stuff. They'd have brought charges against him for a myriad of things Mueller left in his report. They didn't. Nancy Pelosi was brought along kicking and screaming. They'd continue today and go after him for breaking the laws around rules of engagement etc. They haven't done any of that. It's true that there are certainly pockets of the Dem establishment who have been talking about these things since day one. This is a pretty clear example of "talk is cheap" as best I can tell. They canall they want. Their actions tell a different story.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
This is a
I am really not interested in hearing the same arguments over again in this thread. I am legitimately curious as to what would cause someone that supported Obama to switch to supporting Trump. The two men and their positions on issues are different in so many ways it would be very interesting to hear.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Maybe but it's not like Obama was running in 2016.eoMMan said:With all due respect, that's like going from supporting a juicy ribeye steak to an immoral, lying tough piece of sirloin. Please feel free to not vote again this year.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Agreed. I have some explanations spread out in different posts, so if it relates to the thread title I'll just keep it all in the first post. If it's a response to a different but related question (like impeachment) I'll it where it is. I don't intend to be an apologist for all things Trump, but the discussion can also expand beyond simply the list of reasons why I support him.Gr00vus said:
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
I think he has a lot of good leadership qualities. I believe he truly cares about America and putting America first. He has a great life story - and it's easy to believe someone who has been as successful as he has been cares about this country. Yes, he's combative, but I count that as a plus in his role. I like that he didn't back down on immigration after all the blowback from the media, politicians, and sponsors. He didn't crumble or shrivel up or backtrack.James Daulton said:
He's not a politician - that's a huge plus to me. He's certainly not polished, but he's very far from stupid. I think he understands business more than the average politician who's never had a "real job" or run a business. I wish more non-politicians would run.
I've traveled extensively, and even though America has problems, it's still (by far) the best country and still the land of opportunity. I've seen Russia and China first hand and I understand why they don't have an illegal immigration problem.
James Daulton
Footballguy
Thanks for the response. It’s crazy how people can have the exact opposite opinion of the same dude, but that’s what makes the world go round I guess.
adonis
Footballguy
Does the level of hypocrisy from Trump bother you very much? Do you see him as hypocritical or do you think there's an explanation that folks just don't understand when he seems hypocritical?
(BTW, appreciate you doing this and taking the friendly (or not so friendly) fire at times.)
The Z Machine
Footballguy
After seeing a businessman with no political experience become POTUS I hope none ever run again. We need people who understand how government works instead of dismantling the structures and norms that have been built over many decades.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I'd like to ask more about that shift - especially since you went from Christian to Atheist
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Absolutely. There are a lot of things about Trump that bothers. But I see hypocrisy on both sides so there's not some ideal candidate out there straight out of Hollywood casting central that's going to step up.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Both shifts were similar because in each case I had spent a lot of time refusing to look at any evidence that contradicted my current positions of Christianity and pro-choice. I had spent a few years as as missionary (2002 - 2005) and had seen first-hand so much fraud and dishonesty in "the church" that by the time I left I was no longer interested in guarding my positions against other ideas. And by "the church", I don't mean my particular mega-church (although in hindsight it's clear to me it's simply a big business) but the Christian church collectively in the west and India and China where I was stationed working with orphanages. It was during this subsequent period of "research" that my belief in the bible began unraveling. I don't think all Christians are fraudsters, and there's a lot of good work being done in the world under the banner of Christianity. But it's a banner I don't believe in any more.
Later (2012ish) I applied the same sort of "no filter" research to the issue of abortion. I was always looking at it exclusively from the womans rights point of view. Looking at the fetus, I can't escape the fact that it's a living being. It's a baby. It's human and killing it is wrong imho.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
It is odd that you said that hypocrisy from the left is what turned you to Trump but you admit that Trump's a hypocrite too. I am guessing that hypocrisy isn't really high on the reasons why you turned away from Obama and moved toward Trump. If it were you would likely turn towards a thirdparty or abandon politics altogether.
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Sweet J
Footballguy
dkp993
Footballguy
I’d add an even more specific layer to that and that’s “intelligent” people. @NorvilleBarnes is clearly a smart dude (as are others obviously, including people in my life) yet they arrive at or observe positions that are 180 degrees from other obviously smart people. It’s hard to get my arms around honestly, I said it before but it’s like one group walks outside, looks up sees the sky and calls it “blue”. The other group does the same and calls it “wrench”. How we all can be so out of sync is crazy.
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
First I think we have different definitions of "pro choice" and "pro life". My definition is not as simple as for or opposed abortion. That there is a lot of baggage that the terms bring with them. So with that when you say you are pro life do you simply want fewer abortions being performed - ideally zero? Or is it also important to make moral stands at all cost?
To me the pro life movement in total means making moral stands even if those moral stands demonstrably have no effect (prohibition is statistically ineffective) or actually increase abortion rates ("moral stands" about sex in general, especially but not exclusively teen sex leads to higher abortion rates). And when you bring in the candidates and the policies that pro life voters in net place in to office they elect supporters of policies that demonstrably increase abortion rates (against contraception, abstinence only) and oppose policies that lower abortion rates (robust social safety nets).
Now most people who say they want to reduce abortion rates simply can't make the logical leap that prohibition of abortion will work no better than prohibition of drugs or gambling as opposed to prohibitions against murder. So if you simply ban them it would drop the rate down to close to zero and only low life criminals will have abortions. Study after study has shown that this is not how it works. Abortion is demand based and someone will supply the demand. And when those low life criminal turns out to be our mothers and sisters and daughters and people we love and respect that found themselves desperate enough to find a provider how much are we really going to stomach "making an example out of them"?
So I ask you to research some more if your desire is to reduce abortion rates rather than to cast a few stones. You'll find that pro life is about casting those stones and whether on purpose or just a happy accident that liberalism reduces abortion rates. (The lowest rates in the world, at least where big families are not the preference is in those Scandinavian countries that a certain "socialist" wants to use as a model here in America.)
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
The analogy I like to use is two people shopping online for a something and looking at the same set of products but using two different filters. One is prioritizing by ratings and the 5 star reviewed products appear at the top and the other is filtering by specific features and those appear at the top. The set of products (say, political candidates) are the exactly same, but the sorting criteria is different. But the thing is, some people aren't aware of the sorting or filters they've applied. They're just looking at the best and are amazed that others aren't seeing the same results. Add in mistrust of the other shopper and immediately there are accusations of dishonesty and stupidy of each other. Imagine the products themselves making things worse "If you're not selecting 5 star, you're a Nazi" and we have all the shoppers shouting past each other.
urbanhack
Fight The Power!
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Well even more simply put...abortion rates have gone down historically, when abortion is made legal. Sounds counterintuitive, but it is what has happened.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna858476
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
I understood what he was saying, but thank you.
From the article:
“Improved contraceptive use, and in turn, declines in unintended pregnancy rates are the likely driver behind the worldwide decline in abortion rates,”
Van Dyman
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Maybe so...just citing statistics. Also, one party has pushed against education on contraceptive use historically...instead focusing on abstinence education which didn't work at all.
Just my own insight into why I personally support pro choice politicians even while being anti abortion personally.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
I understand. But I believe abortion is murder so I'm not on board with comparing it to other crimes "as opposed to murder".
It's not a religious matter for me. I simply believe the unborn are the most innocent and the most vulnerable and the most deserving of our protection.
I'm not part of the Pro-Life movement - I won't be at any clinics shouting at pregnant women or anything - and I also don't advocate for abstinence.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I don’t want to hijack to an abortion discussion but I hadn’t focused before on the fact you’re atheist and pro life. That’s pretty rare as best as I can tell. Do you believe in a soul?
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
I guess that depends on the definition. Someone once said you don't HAVE a soul, you ARE soul. You have a body, mind, etc.fatguyinalittlecoat said:
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
Each of us have over 100 trillion microbes living in and on our body. I like to think of myself as their god. A vengeful god.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
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