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*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (6 Viewers)

Interesting Rockets piece from Henry Abbott on ESPN, particularly this part about Omer Asik:

The Omer Asik issue

Asik is not a superstar, by name. But he's a very fine defender. He was on the floor for 62 percent of the Rockets' minutes last season, during which time the team was very good, outscoring opponents by six points per 100 possessions. During the other 38 percent of the season the team was so bad that all the other big-minute Rockets -- Harden, Chandler Parsons, Lin -- finished the season with negative plus/minus ratings.

In other words, we think of Howard joining a pretty good team, and making it better. But in fact, by sending Asik to the bench, Howard is taking the floor with four guys who needed heroic defensive help just to win 45 games. The great news for the Rockets is that they'll have finally solved last season's crisis -- no good backup for Asik -- but there's still no getting around the reality that Howard is benching one of the very best Rockets, and it's no surprise Asik's not happy about it and has asked for a trade.

The Rockets believe they need Asik and won't trade him, however. Not to mention: It might make sense some nights to close games with Asik on the floor instead of Howard.

Keeping everybody focused on the bigger picture will be a massive challenge for coach Kevin McHale.
I think they'd be wise to trade him. He just has too much value to waste on the bench when the Rockets certainly have needs elsewhere. And in late game situations, you have to worry about both Howard and Asik as they are both terrible free throw shooters.

 
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Interesting Rockets piece from Henry Abbott on ESPN, particularly this part about Omer Asik:

The Omer Asik issue

Asik is not a superstar, by name. But he's a very fine defender. He was on the floor for 62 percent of the Rockets' minutes last season, during which time the team was very good, outscoring opponents by six points per 100 possessions. During the other 38 percent of the season the team was so bad that all the other big-minute Rockets -- Harden, Chandler Parsons, Lin -- finished the season with negative plus/minus ratings.

In other words, we think of Howard joining a pretty good team, and making it better. But in fact, by sending Asik to the bench, Howard is taking the floor with four guys who needed heroic defensive help just to win 45 games. The great news for the Rockets is that they'll have finally solved last season's crisis -- no good backup for Asik -- but there's still no getting around the reality that Howard is benching one of the very best Rockets, and it's no surprise Asik's not happy about it and has asked for a trade.

The Rockets believe they need Asik and won't trade him, however. Not to mention: It might make sense some nights to close games with Asik on the floor instead of Howard.

Keeping everybody focused on the bigger picture will be a massive challenge for coach Kevin McHale.
I think they'd be wise to trade him. He just has too much value to waste on the bench when the Rockets certainly have needs elsewhere. And in late game situations, you have to worry about both Howard and Asik as they are both terrible free throw shooters.
With all the new advanced stats coming out showing the true impact of defensive big men (Roy Hibbert) and this article referencing how much better the Rockets are with Asik I think it's smart to keep both bigs.

48 minutes of elite rim protection is a HUGE advantage over trading Asik for some 3 point shooters who can do little else.

 
Interesting Rockets piece from Henry Abbott on ESPN, particularly this part about Omer Asik:

The Omer Asik issue

Asik is not a superstar, by name. But he's a very fine defender. He was on the floor for 62 percent of the Rockets' minutes last season, during which time the team was very good, outscoring opponents by six points per 100 possessions. During the other 38 percent of the season the team was so bad that all the other big-minute Rockets -- Harden, Chandler Parsons, Lin -- finished the season with negative plus/minus ratings.

In other words, we think of Howard joining a pretty good team, and making it better. But in fact, by sending Asik to the bench, Howard is taking the floor with four guys who needed heroic defensive help just to win 45 games. The great news for the Rockets is that they'll have finally solved last season's crisis -- no good backup for Asik -- but there's still no getting around the reality that Howard is benching one of the very best Rockets, and it's no surprise Asik's not happy about it and has asked for a trade.

The Rockets believe they need Asik and won't trade him, however. Not to mention: It might make sense some nights to close games with Asik on the floor instead of Howard.

Keeping everybody focused on the bigger picture will be a massive challenge for coach Kevin McHale.
I think they'd be wise to trade him. He just has too much value to waste on the bench when the Rockets certainly have needs elsewhere. And in late game situations, you have to worry about both Howard and Asik as they are both terrible free throw shooters.
With all the new advanced stats coming out showing the true impact of defensive big men (Roy Hibbert) and this article referencing how much better the Rockets are with Asik I think it's smart to keep both bigs.

48 minutes of elite rim protection is a HUGE advantage over trading Asik for some 3 point shooters who can do little else.
Good point. It would be hard (impossible?) to get fair value.

 
I'm coming around to the idea of keeping Asik. And I am hopeful that the team can find a way to play him 30 mpg and he'll be happy. I agree that getting back equal value would be hard; the only position of need is power forward and I don't know who might be out there now that Smith is to Detroit that would complement Howard. Ryan Anderson's name has popped up, but the Rockets would probably have to add something else. I don't think Cousins, Aldridge, or Love are even remotely remotely available. What other power forward would be conceivable?

As for Asik, if Howard plays 32mpg that leaves 16 for Asik at the Center position. But if the Rockets go "big" with a Harden, Parsons, Donuts/Jones, Asik, Howard lineup they could do some damage in certain situations. I haven't really thought it through too much but I am hopeful they will figure it out...as this year's playoffs showed, protecting the rim is a big deal. Even if the Rockets are forced to play 4 on 5 on the offensive end occassionally it wouldn't be the end of the world.

 
I'm coming around to the idea of keeping Asik. And I am hopeful that the team can find a way to play him 30 mpg and he'll be happy. I agree that getting back equal value would be hard; the only position of need is power forward and I don't know who might be out there now that Smith is to Detroit that would complement Howard. Ryan Anderson's name has popped up, but the Rockets would probably have to add something else. I don't think Cousins, Aldridge, or Love are even remotely remotely available. What other power forward would be conceivable?

As for Asik, if Howard plays 32mpg that leaves 16 for Asik at the Center position. But if the Rockets go "big" with a Harden, Parsons, Donuts/Jones, Asik, Howard lineup they could do some damage in certain situations. I haven't really thought it through too much but I am hopeful they will figure it out...as this year's playoffs showed, protecting the rim is a big deal. Even if the Rockets are forced to play 4 on 5 on the offensive end occassionally it wouldn't be the end of the world.
The problem with 4 on 5 is that is kills Houston's entire drive and kick offense. How is Harden going to get into the paint when Howard, Asik and three other defenders are in there? How is Lin going to drive and turnover it over? Big lineups are only useful if both the bigs can score.

 
I'm coming around to the idea of keeping Asik. And I am hopeful that the team can find a way to play him 30 mpg and he'll be happy. I agree that getting back equal value would be hard; the only position of need is power forward and I don't know who might be out there now that Smith is to Detroit that would complement Howard. Ryan Anderson's name has popped up, but the Rockets would probably have to add something else. I don't think Cousins, Aldridge, or Love are even remotely remotely available. What other power forward would be conceivable?

As for Asik, if Howard plays 32mpg that leaves 16 for Asik at the Center position. But if the Rockets go "big" with a Harden, Parsons, Donuts/Jones, Asik, Howard lineup they could do some damage in certain situations. I haven't really thought it through too much but I am hopeful they will figure it out...as this year's playoffs showed, protecting the rim is a big deal. Even if the Rockets are forced to play 4 on 5 on the offensive end occassionally it wouldn't be the end of the world.
The problem with 4 on 5 is that is kills Houston's entire drive and kick offense. How is Harden going to get into the paint when Howard, Asik and three other defenders are in there? How is Lin going to drive and turnover it over? Big lineups are only useful if both the bigs can score.
Yeah, that's kind of what I'm trying to determine. I suppose one offseason isn't enough time for Asik to develop a decent jumper from 15'.

 
Gotta love the new Dubs management. I know I keep harping about it, but after suffering through the Cohan years the Lacob Era is off to a great start.

Today they managed to get DEN to agree to a 3 way sign and trade with Utah for Iggy. This is HUGE because it let's the Warriors stay at the cap limit where they get to use the: MLE, rookie exception, and since dump Biedrins/RJ to an under the cap team they get $23 million dollars worth of trade exceptions!

If they couldn't coax DEN to agree to a SnT the Dubs would have lost out on all of those goodies. So props to them for making moves.

Then it is reported that the Dubs have signed Marreese Speights. 3 years, 3rd year team option. Not sure how much it's for but I have faith it's at a reasonable salary considering what they did with Landry last year.

It's a great time to be a Dubs fan!!!
+1 :thumbup:

 
I try to stay out of the team-specific threads because they should be for fans of that team and they shouldn't have to put up with people who know less about their team and fan base, so no Lakers thread for me. But it's amazing to me how many people still don't understand the Chris Paul trade veto over there (and presumably elsewhere).

The trade was vetoed by the owners of the Hornets, not the league. Yes, the league owned the team, but they weren't acting in in an administrative capacity when they vetoed the trade, they were acting as the owners of the Hornets. Owners of sports teams vetoes personnel moves all the time. You don't have a right to be free of the whims of nutty rich owners on the other side of your team's trade offers, whether it's just one guy or a collection of 29 different people/families/investment groups.

If you want to complain, complain about the league taking ownership of one of its franchises in the first place. That's at least a reasonable complaint. But once it happens, they're just like any other team. If ownership decides it doesn't like a trade, there's no trade, end of story.
Certainly there are some Laker fans who don't understand the details, but I don't think they are any more amazing that those who write the veto off as simply "ownership rejecting a trade" and suggesting that it's similar to owners rejecting personnel moves all the time. Dell Demps was in a much better position to make objective personnel decisions that were in the best interests of the franchise than Dan Gilbert, Mark Cuban, etc.

Let's cut the BS and acknowledge that had this been Toronto or Minnesota or Milwaukee or Washington or Detroit or Atlanta etc, this trade would never have been vetoed.

 
I'm coming around to the idea of keeping Asik. And I am hopeful that the team can find a way to play him 30 mpg and he'll be happy. I agree that getting back equal value would be hard; the only position of need is power forward and I don't know who might be out there now that Smith is to Detroit that would complement Howard. Ryan Anderson's name has popped up, but the Rockets would probably have to add something else. I don't think Cousins, Aldridge, or Love are even remotely remotely available. What other power forward would be conceivable?

As for Asik, if Howard plays 32mpg that leaves 16 for Asik at the Center position. But if the Rockets go "big" with a Harden, Parsons, Donuts/Jones, Asik, Howard lineup they could do some damage in certain situations. I haven't really thought it through too much but I am hopeful they will figure it out...as this year's playoffs showed, protecting the rim is a big deal. Even if the Rockets are forced to play 4 on 5 on the offensive end occassionally it wouldn't be the end of the world.
The problem with 4 on 5 is that is kills Houston's entire drive and kick offense. How is Harden going to get into the paint when Howard, Asik and three other defenders are in there? How is Lin going to drive and turnover it over? Big lineups are only useful if both the bigs can score.
Yeah, that's kind of what I'm trying to determine. I suppose one offseason isn't enough time for Asik to develop a decent jumper from 15'.
Far more likely that Asik will never have a reliable 15 footer.

Bringing in Howard was an absolute no-brainer since he solidifies the franchise for the next 4 years, but it's not the free ticket to the Finals that many seem to think it is. Abbott's piece was spot on, IMO. McHale has never impressed me as a head coach, and Harden has never played in an inside-out offense, which I assume Houston promised Dwight. Obviously a Harden/Howard pick and roll would appear to be about as reliable as any play in the NBA, but I thought the same thing about Nash and Dwight or Kobe and Dwight last year, and Dwight seemed to hate setting screens and rolling.

It will be fun to watch, at the very least.

 
I try to stay out of the team-specific threads because they should be for fans of that team and they shouldn't have to put up with people who know less about their team and fan base, so no Lakers thread for me. But it's amazing to me how many people still don't understand the Chris Paul trade veto over there (and presumably elsewhere).

The trade was vetoed by the owners of the Hornets, not the league. Yes, the league owned the team, but they weren't acting in in an administrative capacity when they vetoed the trade, they were acting as the owners of the Hornets. Owners of sports teams vetoes personnel moves all the time. You don't have a right to be free of the whims of nutty rich owners on the other side of your team's trade offers, whether it's just one guy or a collection of 29 different people/families/investment groups.

If you want to complain, complain about the league taking ownership of one of its franchises in the first place. That's at least a reasonable complaint. But once it happens, they're just like any other team. If ownership decides it doesn't like a trade, there's no trade, end of story.
What you say is absolutely true as far as crazy owners vetoing personnel moves all the time. As a Laker fan what bothered me then (and now) was that it appeared that the league (acting as the "owner" of the team) nixed the deal after the GM approved it because other owners complained about the deal to Stern. Dan Gilbert's email to the commish in which he complained about the Lakers actually saving money and not paying luxury tax was galling, since the one of the main points of the CBA (supposedly) was to have teams cut costs and level the playing field between teams from different-sized markets, but he seemed to be acting as if the Lakers were supposed to overspend all the time in order for the small-market owners to get more cash in their pockets. I don't believe that Stern killed the deal for "basketball reasons" as he stated, but instead to appease a number of complaining owners.

Stern's personnel acumen netted the Hornicans Chris Kaman, Al-Farouq Aminu, Austin Rivers (taken with the 1st round pick NO got in the deal) and Eric Gordon (who has played 51 games in his two seasons in New Orleans), instead of Lamar Odom, Luis Scola, Goran Dragic, and Kevin Martin (and a first round pick which would have netted a player who couldn't have been worse than Rivers). While Gordon appeared to be the best singular asset in either deal, remember he was coming off consecutive seasons where he had he missed at least 20 games. Given the deal that Stern, as Hornets owner, approved, it isn't easy to see the vast difference in "basketball reasons" for killing the Lakers trade and approving the Clippers trade.

While Stern was technically within his rights to veto the trade as "owner" of New Orleans, I (and I'm sure many Laker fans out there) think he did only to satisfy #####ing owners like Gilbert, which meant he was acting more as commish than owner in that instance. So perhaps that is why Laker fans say the NBA as a whole nixed the deal instead of the NBA as the owners of the Hornets.

The landscape of the NBA would be very different right now, though perhaps Dwight would still be in Houston, as I could certainly have seen Morey turn Gasol into some assets that would land him big time players such as he has now, and perhaps Paul and Bryant would have butted heads and Paul would have decided to play elsewhere. I would have liked to have seen a star on the Lakers who wouldn't have immediately deferred to Kobe, though.

 
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I try to stay out of the team-specific threads because they should be for fans of that team and they shouldn't have to put up with people who know less about their team and fan base, so no Lakers thread for me. But it's amazing to me how many people still don't understand the Chris Paul trade veto over there (and presumably elsewhere).

The trade was vetoed by the owners of the Hornets, not the league. Yes, the league owned the team, but they weren't acting in in an administrative capacity when they vetoed the trade, they were acting as the owners of the Hornets. Owners of sports teams vetoes personnel moves all the time. You don't have a right to be free of the whims of nutty rich owners on the other side of your team's trade offers, whether it's just one guy or a collection of 29 different people/families/investment groups.

If you want to complain, complain about the league taking ownership of one of its franchises in the first place. That's at least a reasonable complaint. But once it happens, they're just like any other team. If ownership decides it doesn't like a trade, there's no trade, end of story.
Certainly there are some Laker fans who don't understand the details, but I don't think they are any more amazing that those who write the veto off as simply "ownership rejecting a trade" and suggesting that it's similar to owners rejecting personnel moves all the time. Dell Demps was in a much better position to make objective personnel decisions that were in the best interests of the franchise than Dan Gilbert, Mark Cuban, etc.

Let's cut the BS and acknowledge that had this been Toronto or Minnesota or Milwaukee or Washington or Detroit or Atlanta etc, this trade would never have been vetoed.
It's always the case that GMs are in a better position to make objective personnel decisions in the best interest of the franchise than the owners. And it's always the case that the owners still get to veto if they like, for any reason, no questions asked. So I'm not sure how this is different.

By the way, the owners turned out to be correct in this instance. The package offered by the Clippers was better than the package offered by the Lakers. The former New Orleans franchise ownership group deserves praise for their wisdom and foresight in turning down Odom and friends for a better collection of talent and what would ultimately be a higher draft pick.

 
While Stern was technically within his rights to veto the trade as "owner" of New Orleans, I (and I'm sure many Laker fans out there) think he did only to satisfy #####ing owners like Gilbert, which meant he was acting more as commish than owner in that instance. So perhaps that is why Laker fans say the NBA as a whole nixed the deal instead of the NBA as the owners of the Hornets.
No offense, but based on this post you seem to think that a commissioner is an independent actor fighting for truth and justice. He's not; he's an employee of the owners. That's why there's never been a commissioner in the history of sports that's sided with the players in a labor dispute (at least as far as I can remember, and I seriously doubt it's ever happened).

If Stern nixed the deal to satisfy the wishes of the team owners, that means he was doing his job. There's no separation between acting as commissioner and acting as a representative of the owners. It's the same job. Sometimes the Commissioner's office acts as an independent arbiter of disputes between teams in which it supposedly has an equal stake, but that wasn't the case here, so there's no separation. Stern = owners.

 
I try to stay out of the team-specific threads because they should be for fans of that team and they shouldn't have to put up with people who know less about their team and fan base, so no Lakers thread for me. But it's amazing to me how many people still don't understand the Chris Paul trade veto over there (and presumably elsewhere).

The trade was vetoed by the owners of the Hornets, not the league. Yes, the league owned the team, but they weren't acting in in an administrative capacity when they vetoed the trade, they were acting as the owners of the Hornets. Owners of sports teams vetoes personnel moves all the time. You don't have a right to be free of the whims of nutty rich owners on the other side of your team's trade offers, whether it's just one guy or a collection of 29 different people/families/investment groups.

If you want to complain, complain about the league taking ownership of one of its franchises in the first place. That's at least a reasonable complaint. But once it happens, they're just like any other team. If ownership decides it doesn't like a trade, there's no trade, end of story.
Certainly there are some Laker fans who don't understand the details, but I don't think they are any more amazing that those who write the veto off as simply "ownership rejecting a trade" and suggesting that it's similar to owners rejecting personnel moves all the time. Dell Demps was in a much better position to make objective personnel decisions that were in the best interests of the franchise than Dan Gilbert, Mark Cuban, etc.

Let's cut the BS and acknowledge that had this been Toronto or Minnesota or Milwaukee or Washington or Detroit or Atlanta etc, this trade would never have been vetoed.
It's always the case that GMs are in a better position to make objective personnel decisions in the best interest of the franchise than the owners. And it's always the case that the owners still get to veto if they like, for any reason, no questions asked. So I'm not sure how this is different.

By the way, the owners turned out to be correct in this instance. The package offered by the Clippers was better than the package offered by the Lakers. The former New Orleans franchise ownership group deserves praise for their wisdom and foresight in turning down Odom and friends for a better collection of talent and what would ultimately be a higher draft pick.
I know you're too smart to not understand the conflict of interests involved and how that makes a difference, but for some reason you're refusing to acknowledge that part. :shrug:

I disagree with the last part. Gordon is an albatross and was an extremely risky asset, albeit one with nice upside, at the time. NO knew based on the timetable that they were going to have to ante ~ $60M/4 at the end of the season if they wanted to keep Gordon, and it's a roll of the dice they lost.

 
I know you're too smart to not understand the conflict of interests involved and how that makes a difference, but for some reason you're refusing to acknowledge that part. :shrug:

I disagree with the last part. Gordon is an albatross and was an extremely risky asset, albeit one with nice upside, at the time. NO knew based on the timetable that they were going to have to ante ~ $60M/4 at the end of the season if they wanted to keep Gordon, and it's a roll of the dice they lost.
No, I totally understand the conflict of interests involved. But I think that's a problem that exists as soon as a league collectively owns a sports team. Everything they do, or for that matter don't do, is problematic. Yeah the Paul/Lakers thing was weird, but no weirder than any other move they made or didn't make, or anything the Coyotes or Expos/Nationals did or didn't do.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I do think fans should reject the idea of a league-owned teams immediately, instead of waiting until the league-owned teams do something that harms their favorite team. The reaction should be the same as it was to the NFL replacement refs or something like that.

 
I'm coming around to the idea of keeping Asik. And I am hopeful that the team can find a way to play him 30 mpg and he'll be happy. I agree that getting back equal value would be hard; the only position of need is power forward and I don't know who might be out there now that Smith is to Detroit that would complement Howard. Ryan Anderson's name has popped up, but the Rockets would probably have to add something else. I don't think Cousins, Aldridge, or Love are even remotely remotely available. What other power forward would be conceivable?

As for Asik, if Howard plays 32mpg that leaves 16 for Asik at the Center position. But if the Rockets go "big" with a Harden, Parsons, Donuts/Jones, Asik, Howard lineup they could do some damage in certain situations. I haven't really thought it through too much but I am hopeful they will figure it out...as this year's playoffs showed, protecting the rim is a big deal. Even if the Rockets are forced to play 4 on 5 on the offensive end occassionally it wouldn't be the end of the world.
The problem with 4 on 5 is that is kills Houston's entire drive and kick offense. How is Harden going to get into the paint when Howard, Asik and three other defenders are in there? How is Lin going to drive and turnover it over? Big lineups are only useful if both the bigs can score.
Yeah, that's kind of what I'm trying to determine. I suppose one offseason isn't enough time for Asik to develop a decent jumper from 15'.
Far more likely that Asik will never have a reliable 15 footer.

Bringing in Howard was an absolute no-brainer since he solidifies the franchise for the next 4 years, but it's not the free ticket to the Finals that many seem to think it is. Abbott's piece was spot on, IMO. McHale has never impressed me as a head coach, and Harden has never played in an inside-out offense, which I assume Houston promised Dwight. Obviously a Harden/Howard pick and roll would appear to be about as reliable as any play in the NBA, but I thought the same thing about Nash and Dwight or Kobe and Dwight last year, and Dwight seemed to hate setting screens and rolling.

It will be fun to watch, at the very least.
I think that "ticket to the finals" is premature. Very. For starters, Dwight needs to be closer to 100% than 80%. I imagine he is, but we haven't seen it yet. Second, the offense is going to look A LOT different. Last year there were a lot of clear outs where Harden went at the rim and the guys crashed behind him. Dwight is going to be in/near the paint a lot more than that. I think the upside is championship contender but I think 3 or 4 seed is more realistic for a couple years. The lack of a decent PF is scary and the PG situation is...uh...meh. Most of us Rockets fans are hoping and praying that Lin has spent the summer practicing threes from the elbow and working on being a lockdown defender. If he does that then they really could make some noise, but that would take a lot of work.

 
So who are the 7th and 8th best teams in the WC? Denver looks like they're in for a rough year. LA's situation is well-documented and very uncertain. Denver/Portland?

 
While Stern was technically within his rights to veto the trade as "owner" of New Orleans, I (and I'm sure many Laker fans out there) think he did only to satisfy #####ing owners like Gilbert, which meant he was acting more as commish than owner in that instance. So perhaps that is why Laker fans say the NBA as a whole nixed the deal instead of the NBA as the owners of the Hornets.
No offense, but based on this post you seem to think that a commissioner is an independent actor fighting for truth and justice. He's not; he's an employee of the owners. That's why there's never been a commissioner in the history of sports that's sided with the players in a labor dispute (at least as far as I can remember, and I seriously doubt it's ever happened).

If Stern nixed the deal to satisfy the wishes of the team owners, that means he was doing his job. There's no separation between acting as commissioner and acting as a representative of the owners. It's the same job. Sometimes the Commissioner's office acts as an independent arbiter of disputes between teams in which it supposedly has an equal stake, but that wasn't the case here, so there's no separation. Stern = owners.
I don't think a commissioner is fighting for truth and justice. I think a commissioner is supposed to make sure teams follow the rules and, as long as they are, to let them make their choices about how to compete in the league. Dell Demps, who was entrusted by his owner to make decisions about the Hornets' personnel, thought the Lakers-Rockets-Hornets deal would help his team going forward. I doubt Stern spent much of his time poring over the NO roster and the rosters of the other teams and made short-term and long-term plans for the personnel of the franchise once the league took over. For Stern to claim the trade was rejected for basketball reasons was crap. How would Stern know?

I agree with the bolded statement above. Where there should be a separation is between acting as a commissioner (where he represents every owner, including the owners of the Lakers and Rockets) and acting as the owner of a team. The NBA screwed that up horribly and showed why no league should ever own a professional sports team for any length of time.

 
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While Stern was technically within his rights to veto the trade as "owner" of New Orleans, I (and I'm sure many Laker fans out there) think he did only to satisfy #####ing owners like Gilbert, which meant he was acting more as commish than owner in that instance. So perhaps that is why Laker fans say the NBA as a whole nixed the deal instead of the NBA as the owners of the Hornets.
No offense, but based on this post you seem to think that a commissioner is an independent actor fighting for truth and justice. He's not; he's an employee of the owners. That's why there's never been a commissioner in the history of sports that's sided with the players in a labor dispute (at least as far as I can remember, and I seriously doubt it's ever happened).

If Stern nixed the deal to satisfy the wishes of the team owners, that means he was doing his job. There's no separation between acting as commissioner and acting as a representative of the owners. It's the same job. Sometimes the Commissioner's office acts as an independent arbiter of disputes between teams in which it supposedly has an equal stake, but that wasn't the case here, so there's no separation. Stern = owners.
I don't think a commissioner is fighting for truth and justice. I think a commissioner is supposed to make sure teams follow the rules and, as long as they are, to let them make their choices about how to compete in the league. Dell Demps, who was entrusted by his owner to make decisions about the Hornets' personnel, thought the Lakers-Rockets-Hornets deal would help his team going forward. I doubt Stern spent much of his time poring over the NO roster and the rosters of the other teams and made short-term and long-term plans for the personnel of the franchise once the league took over. For Stern to claim the trade was rejected for basketball reasons was crap. How would Stern know?

I agree with the bolded statement above. Where there should be a separation is between acting as a commissioner (where he represents every owner, including the owners of the Lakers and Rockets) and acting as the owner of a team. The NBA screwed that up horribly and showed why no league should every own a professional sports team for any length of time.
This we can agree on. Hopefully it will lead to fans being more outraged about it before it ever happens in the future.

As to Stern, he was in a better position to evaluate the trade market than an individual owner of a team would be. No emotional ties to players on "his" team and better knowledge of the leaguewide marketplace for talent.

 
While Stern was technically within his rights to veto the trade as "owner" of New Orleans, I (and I'm sure many Laker fans out there) think he did only to satisfy #####ing owners like Gilbert, which meant he was acting more as commish than owner in that instance. So perhaps that is why Laker fans say the NBA as a whole nixed the deal instead of the NBA as the owners of the Hornets.
No offense, but based on this post you seem to think that a commissioner is an independent actor fighting for truth and justice. He's not; he's an employee of the owners. That's why there's never been a commissioner in the history of sports that's sided with the players in a labor dispute (at least as far as I can remember, and I seriously doubt it's ever happened).

If Stern nixed the deal to satisfy the wishes of the team owners, that means he was doing his job. There's no separation between acting as commissioner and acting as a representative of the owners. It's the same job. Sometimes the Commissioner's office acts as an independent arbiter of disputes between teams in which it supposedly has an equal stake, but that wasn't the case here, so there's no separation. Stern = owners.
I don't think a commissioner is fighting for truth and justice. I think a commissioner is supposed to make sure teams follow the rules and, as long as they are, to let them make their choices about how to compete in the league. Dell Demps, who was entrusted by his owner to make decisions about the Hornets' personnel, thought the Lakers-Rockets-Hornets deal would help his team going forward. I doubt Stern spent much of his time poring over the NO roster and the rosters of the other teams and made short-term and long-term plans for the personnel of the franchise once the league took over. For Stern to claim the trade was rejected for basketball reasons was crap. How would Stern know?

I agree with the bolded statement above. Where there should be a separation is between acting as a commissioner (where he represents every owner, including the owners of the Lakers and Rockets) and acting as the owner of a team. The NBA screwed that up horribly and showed why no league should every own a professional sports team for any length of time.
This we can agree on. Hopefully it will lead to fans being more outraged about it before it ever happens in the future.

As to Stern, he was in a better position to evaluate the trade market than an individual owner of a team would be. No emotional ties to players on "his" team and better knowledge of the leaguewide marketplace for talent.
Agree with both you and Comet on the detriments of a league owning a franchise.

Disagree with you that Stern has a better read of the trade market than an individual owner, assuming that owner is interested and paying attention.

 
I try to stay out of the team-specific threads because they should be for fans of that team and they shouldn't have to put up with people who know less about their team and fan base, so no Lakers thread for me. But it's amazing to me how many people still don't understand the Chris Paul trade veto over there (and presumably elsewhere).

The trade was vetoed by the owners of the Hornets, not the league. Yes, the league owned the team, but they weren't acting in in an administrative capacity when they vetoed the trade, they were acting as the owners of the Hornets. Owners of sports teams vetoes personnel moves all the time. You don't have a right to be free of the whims of nutty rich owners on the other side of your team's trade offers, whether it's just one guy or a collection of 29 different people/families/investment groups.

If you want to complain, complain about the league taking ownership of one of its franchises in the first place. That's at least a reasonable complaint. But once it happens, they're just like any other team. If ownership decides it doesn't like a trade, there's no trade, end of story.
What you say is absolutely true as far as crazy owners vetoing personnel moves all the time. As a Laker fan what bothered me then (and now) was that it appeared that the league (acting as the "owner" of the team) nixed the deal after the GM approved it because other owners complained about the deal to Stern. Dan Gilbert's email to the commish in which he complained about the Lakers actually saving money and not paying luxury tax was galling, since the one of the main points of the CBA (supposedly) was to have teams cut costs and level the playing field between teams from different-sized markets, but he seemed to be acting as if the Lakers were supposed to overspend all the time in order for the small-market owners to get more cash in their pockets. I don't believe that Stern killed the deal for "basketball reasons" as he stated, but instead to appease a number of complaining owners.

Stern's personnel acumen netted the Hornicans Chris Kaman, Al-Farouq Aminu, Austin Rivers (taken with the 1st round pick NO got in the deal) and Eric Gordon (who has played 51 games in his two seasons in New Orleans), instead of Lamar Odom, Luis Scola, Goran Dragic, and Kevin Martin (and a first round pick which would have netted a player who couldn't have been worse than Rivers). While Gordon appeared to be the best singular asset in either deal, remember he was coming off consecutive seasons where he had he missed at least 20 games. Given the deal that Stern, as Hornets owner, approved, it isn't easy to see the vast difference in "basketball reasons" for killing the Lakers trade and approving the Clippers trade.

While Stern was technically within his rights to veto the trade as "owner" of New Orleans, I (and I'm sure many Laker fans out there) think he did only to satisfy #####ing owners like Gilbert, which meant he was acting more as commish than owner in that instance. So perhaps that is why Laker fans say the NBA as a whole nixed the deal instead of the NBA as the owners of the Hornets.

The landscape of the NBA would be very different right now, though perhaps Dwight would still be in Houston, as I could certainly have seen Morey turn Gasol into some assets that would land him big time players such as he has now, and perhaps Paul and Bryant would have butted heads and Paul would have decided to play elsewhere. I would have liked to have seen a star on the Lakers who wouldn't have immediately deferred to Kobe, though.
Weren't the Hornets taking on a lot of money in that deal though? I thought that was really the issue, the contracts for players that wouldn't be helping put asses in the seats.

 
I'm coming around to the idea of keeping Asik. And I am hopeful that the team can find a way to play him 30 mpg and he'll be happy. I agree that getting back equal value would be hard; the only position of need is power forward and I don't know who might be out there now that Smith is to Detroit that would complement Howard. Ryan Anderson's name has popped up, but the Rockets would probably have to add something else. I don't think Cousins, Aldridge, or Love are even remotely remotely available. What other power forward would be conceivable?

As for Asik, if Howard plays 32mpg that leaves 16 for Asik at the Center position. But if the Rockets go "big" with a Harden, Parsons, Donuts/Jones, Asik, Howard lineup they could do some damage in certain situations. I haven't really thought it through too much but I am hopeful they will figure it out...as this year's playoffs showed, protecting the rim is a big deal. Even if the Rockets are forced to play 4 on 5 on the offensive end occassionally it wouldn't be the end of the world.
The problem with 4 on 5 is that is kills Houston's entire drive and kick offense. How is Harden going to get into the paint when Howard, Asik and three other defenders are in there? How is Lin going to drive and turnover it over? Big lineups are only useful if both the bigs can score.
:goodposting:

Dumb move IMO if Asik is on this team this season. He becomes Marcin Gortat in Orlando where he's playing off the bench when could be starting elsewhere. Asik has a lot of trade value. He (and Rockets) deserve better

 
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I'm coming around to the idea of keeping Asik. And I am hopeful that the team can find a way to play him 30 mpg and he'll be happy. I agree that getting back equal value would be hard; the only position of need is power forward and I don't know who might be out there now that Smith is to Detroit that would complement Howard. Ryan Anderson's name has popped up, but the Rockets would probably have to add something else. I don't think Cousins, Aldridge, or Love are even remotely remotely available. What other power forward would be conceivable?

As for Asik, if Howard plays 32mpg that leaves 16 for Asik at the Center position. But if the Rockets go "big" with a Harden, Parsons, Donuts/Jones, Asik, Howard lineup they could do some damage in certain situations. I haven't really thought it through too much but I am hopeful they will figure it out...as this year's playoffs showed, protecting the rim is a big deal. Even if the Rockets are forced to play 4 on 5 on the offensive end occassionally it wouldn't be the end of the world.
The problem with 4 on 5 is that is kills Houston's entire drive and kick offense. How is Harden going to get into the paint when Howard, Asik and three other defenders are in there? How is Lin going to drive and turnover it over? Big lineups are only useful if both the bigs can score.
:goodposting:

Dumb move IMO if Asik is on this team this season. He becomes Marcin Gortat in Orlando & he (and Rockets) deserve better. Asik has a lot of trade value.
Someone on the Rockets board put out an idea of Lin and Asik for Afflalo and Davis. :X

 
Nice signing by the Warriors if O'Neal stays healthy for a significant amount and plays like he did this past season. He played very well & outplayed Gortat most of the season.

Jermaine O'Neal agreed to a one-year contract with the Warriors.
The Warriors don't exactly have the most durable centers in the league with Andrew Bogut and O'Neal on their roster, so Festus Ezeli and Marreese Speights could be important pieces. O'Neal probably will be expected to play around 18 minutes per game and won't be worth drafting in fantasy leagues.
 
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I like the Douglas and JO signings to boost the bench. Again depends on the cash, but I think they'll be reasonable deals.

Douglas had horrible shot selection, but he can be a decent defender and get hot on offense.

JO is a solid back up and actually played well last year.

These guys aren't as good as Jack and Landry, but I'm looking for Iggy, Draymond, and Barnes to take over those minutes. Speights, JO, and Douglas are just fillers. If they have to play significant minutes, we're screwed.

 

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