*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (19 Viewers)

[Frostillicus]

I'm siced up for more potato quality dunks from the Wolves this year.

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[Notorious T.R.E.]

Re: Charlotte having the best starting five outside of Cleveland...I haven't given it much thought but imagine the Clippers and Spurs are in the discussion with a few others (bulls, rockets, lakers) having a case.

Well, not the lakers. Couldn't help myself.

The Rockets achilles heal will probably be team defense. Lot's of talent, and they can score with anyone...but that team defense is a must in May and June.Clippers are stout. Bulls with a truly healthy Rose...stout...but where is the other true elite scorer? I just don't see that and if you shut down Rose (which can be done by a great defender and great team defensive scheme ala Miami a few years ago when Rose was the MVP) I don't think the Bulls have another true elite scorer to pick up the slack if a team focuses on Rose.

The East is so wide open....big time.

The Spurs are the champs...and they will be right there as always. Age and health is their only concern.

Not sure what you mean about the Rockets. They were 11th in defensive efficiency last year and I'd say they've slightly upgraded this year, no?

Yeah that was a weird comment. Elite defenders at PG, SF, and C. Ariza is a huge upgrade on Parsons on that end.

Have you met Abe before?

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Also how many teams have two ELITE scorers?

 

[Kev4029]

Also how many teams have two ELITE scorers?

Cleveland (3)

OKC

LAC - I'm counting Paul

Portland - Not totally sold on calling Aldridge elite when he shoots 46% for a PF/C though

I don't think I would put Houston, Golden State or Sacramento in that category, but an argument could me made.

 

[Alonzo Mosely]

Kobe is such a punk. Gonna love watching this terrible team all year while this chucker reaffirms how selfish he is.

just amazing how much you hate one of the all time greatest NBA stars who led his team to 5 2 championships.

fixed

2 is a stretch. He lost two games on his own against the C's then had Artest and Gasol bail him out in the 4th quarter of game 7.

 

[scoobus]

Loving the opening night optimism in the thread.

 

[Todem]

Also how many teams have two ELITE scorers?

Cleveland (3)

OKC

LAC - I'm counting Paul

Portland - Not totally sold on calling Aldridge elite when he shoots 46% for a PF/C though

I don't think I would put Houston, Golden State or Sacramento in that category, but an argument could me made.

Exactly. You understand what I meant by two elite scorers.

 

[Todem]

Loving the opening night optimism in the thread.

You gotta have it while you can!!!

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Also how many teams have two ELITE scorers?

Cleveland (3)

OKC

LAC - I'm counting Paul

Portland - Not totally sold on calling Aldridge elite when he shoots 46% for a PF/C though

I don't think I would put Houston, Golden State or Sacramento in that category, but an argument could me made.

 

[Todem]

Kobe is such a punk. Gonna love watching this terrible team all year while this chucker reaffirms how selfish he is.

just amazing how much you hate one of the all time greatest NBA stars who led his team to 5 2 championships.

fixed

2 is a stretch. He lost two games on his own against the C's then had Artest and Gasol bail him out in the 4th quarter of game 7.

I am sorry but The amount of hate Kobe get's in here is plain ignorance.

The guy is one of the all time great players in the history of the association. 5 time NBA champ....period.

I am not a Lakers fan in the least bit (I actually was till 1988 when my hometown got our own team finally) anymore and can see what Kobe was. He no longer is the same player...but in his prime?

Come on man.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Also how many teams have two ELITE scorers?

Cleveland (3)

OKC

LAC - I'm counting Paul

Portland - Not totally sold on calling Aldridge elite when he shoots 46% for a PF/C though

I don't think I would put Houston, Golden State or Sacramento in that category, but an argument could me made.

Exactly. You understand what I meant by two elite scorers.

The greater point though, is that you don't need two elite scorers to win a title.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Also how many teams have two ELITE scorers?

Cleveland (3)

OKC

LAC - I'm counting Paul

Portland - Not totally sold on calling Aldridge elite when he shoots 46% for a PF/C though

I don't think I would put Houston, Golden State or Sacramento in that category, but an argument could me made.

Exactly. You understand what I meant by two elite scorers.

The greater point though, is that you don't need two elite scorers to win a title.

You don't even need one.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Also how many teams have two ELITE scorers?

Cleveland (3)

OKC

LAC - I'm counting Paul

Portland - Not totally sold on calling Aldridge elite when he shoots 46% for a PF/C though

I don't think I would put Houston, Golden State or Sacramento in that category, but an argument could me made.

Exactly. You understand what I meant by two elite scorers.

The greater point though, is that you don't need two elite scorers to win a title.

You don't even need one.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Speaking of delusional homerism, I found this pretty amusing: chart comparing fan win total projections with Vegas over/unders.

Only fans less optimistic than Vegas are Wizards (Beal injury/general misery) and Thunder (Durant injury). Surprised to see Knicks and Bulls fans being so realistic, although I guess Knicks fans are also pretty miserable and it's hard to project the Bulls much higher than Vegas already has.

If the site's not working for you here's the chart in tweet form.

 

[Bobcat10]

I was really siced up for the 3D court introductions in Cleveland tonight but just realized they probably won't show it on TNT.

Cleveland, Sacramento, Philly and Atlanta either bought the multi million dollar system or are experimenting with it.

 

[wadegarrett]

I was really siced up for the 3D court introductions in Cleveland tonight but just realized they probably won't show it on TNT.

Cleveland, Sacramento, Philly and Atlanta either bought the multi million dollar system or are experimenting with it.

This town is off the hook today.

Heading down tonight!

 

[Todem]

Also how many teams have two ELITE scorers?

Cleveland (3)

OKC

LAC - I'm counting Paul

Portland - Not totally sold on calling Aldridge elite when he shoots 46% for a PF/C though

I don't think I would put Houston, Golden State or Sacramento in that category, but an argument could me made.

Exactly. You understand what I meant by two elite scorers.

The greater point though, is that you don't need two elite scorers to win a title.

You don't...but look at the repeat great teams...they did.

Magic, Worthy, Kareem

Jordan, Pippen

Hakeem and Clyde

Kobe and Shaq

I venture to say Duncan and Ginobli are elite type scorers and have great shooters around them as well to pick up the slack.

OKC is on the verge IMO with Durant and Westbrook.

James, Wade, Bosh....all three were able to go off when needed winning their two titles.

It helps a ton to have that second great scorer....whether it's inside or outside.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Office watercooler talk today regarding the Bucks over/under number at 24.5. Its a tough call, but if I had to put my retirement fund on one side or the other, I think I'd have to go under.

A little shocked that MIL faithful would be pessimistic on the tails of the opener. Yeah, they blew a big lead. But they had a big lead.

O.J. looked good, Sanders didn't die or kill anybody, and every other important piece of the team is just getting started. They'll only get better as the season goes. I think they fall a little short of 40, but way over 25. They were at 15 last year because the whole team was fat, or dead, or high-school aged, AND they were tanking. None of that's going on any more.

I think most fans are optimistic, certainly moreso than I. For me, there are too many question marks that have to break in the Bucks favor to win much more than last season. As I said, 25+ is a tough call right now, but the realistic me would go under if forced to choose.

 

[Todem]

Re: Charlotte having the best starting five outside of Cleveland...I haven't given it much thought but imagine the Clippers and Spurs are in the discussion with a few others (bulls, rockets, lakers) having a case.

Well, not the lakers. Couldn't help myself.

The Rockets achilles heal will probably be team defense. Lot's of talent, and they can score with anyone...but that team defense is a must in May and June.Clippers are stout. Bulls with a truly healthy Rose...stout...but where is the other true elite scorer? I just don't see that and if you shut down Rose (which can be done by a great defender and great team defensive scheme ala Miami a few years ago when Rose was the MVP) I don't think the Bulls have another true elite scorer to pick up the slack if a team focuses on Rose.

The East is so wide open....big time.

The Spurs are the champs...and they will be right there as always. Age and health is their only concern.

Not sure what you mean about the Rockets. They were 11th in defensive efficiency last year and I'd say they've slightly upgraded this year, no?

Yeah that was a weird comment. Elite defenders at PG, SF, and C. Ariza is a huge upgrade on Parsons on that end.

I think the Rockets are good defensively.....but I am talking elite championship like defense....and that is needed to get out of the West IMO. You have to be able to slow down OKC, The Spurs, The Clippers to get out of the West.

Champions play championship defense. I have not seen evidence of The Rockets having that championship team defensive philosophy.

Spurs? Now your talking.

 

[pollardsvision]

I feel like Parker, Duncan, and Ginobili are getting underrated here.

Maybe you guys are limiting the discussion of 38 min/game & 22 shots/game guys, but if Parker/Duncan/Ginobili don't fall into the category of elite offensive players for most of their primes (and past it), then somebody is doing it wrong.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Re: Charlotte having the best starting five outside of Cleveland...I haven't given it much thought but imagine the Clippers and Spurs are in the discussion with a few others (bulls, rockets, lakers) having a case.

Well, not the lakers. Couldn't help myself.

The Rockets achilles heal will probably be team defense. Lot's of talent, and they can score with anyone...but that team defense is a must in May and June.Clippers are stout. Bulls with a truly healthy Rose...stout...but where is the other true elite scorer? I just don't see that and if you shut down Rose (which can be done by a great defender and great team defensive scheme ala Miami a few years ago when Rose was the MVP) I don't think the Bulls have another true elite scorer to pick up the slack if a team focuses on Rose.

The East is so wide open....big time.

The Spurs are the champs...and they will be right there as always. Age and health is their only concern.

Not sure what you mean about the Rockets. They were 11th in defensive efficiency last year and I'd say they've slightly upgraded this year, no?

Yeah that was a weird comment. Elite defenders at PG, SF, and C. Ariza is a huge upgrade on Parsons on that end.

I think the Rockets are good defensively.....but I am talking elite championship like defense....and that is needed to get out of the West IMO. You have to be able to slow down OKC, The Spurs, The Clippers to get out of the West.

Champions play championship defense. I have not seen evidence of The Rockets having that championship team defensive philosophy.

Spurs? Now your talking.

They've played two games, back to back road wins where they held the opponent to an average of 91.5 ppg. And neither the 2010-11 Western Conference champion Mavs (7th) nor the 2011-2012 Western Conference champion Thunder (9th) ranked in the top 5 in the league in defensive efficiency.

 

[Todem]

I feel like Parker and Duncan are getting underrated here.

Maybe you guys are limiting the discussion of 38 min/game & 22 shots/game guys, but if Parker and Duncan don't fall into the category of elite offensive players for most of their primes, then somebody is doing it wrong.

Agreed.....they are elite in my eyes....so is Ginobli. He can scorch you.

You need elite scorers to win....I don't see teams without superstars winning titles.....ever in the NBA. We are talking the last 3 decades. This is why I doubt the Bulls ability to go all the way. Defensively they are the truth, but after Rose they don't have another guy who can really go off this year. If Rose is not on....they are toast IMO for a title run. I do think if Rose is Rose...and they get great seasons out of Noah and Gasol and Butler rounds back into form and McBuckets surprises....they can get to the Finals. Cleveland is not doing it this year....sorry. Defense..they won't play defense like you need to. Not convinced all of a sudden Love and Irving are superstar playoff players....prove it. Could be wrong...but I don't think I will be on that one.

I think the only great bet is the Spurs...only age or injury can really stop them this year IMO. And once Durant get's back OKC is my favorite to win it all this year. They are ready to take that next step. Durant and Westbrook IMO are the best one two punch in the league now.

 

[Todem]

Re: Charlotte having the best starting five outside of Cleveland...I haven't given it much thought but imagine the Clippers and Spurs are in the discussion with a few others (bulls, rockets, lakers) having a case.

Well, not the lakers. Couldn't help myself.

The Rockets achilles heal will probably be team defense. Lot's of talent, and they can score with anyone...but that team defense is a must in May and June.Clippers are stout. Bulls with a truly healthy Rose...stout...but where is the other true elite scorer? I just don't see that and if you shut down Rose (which can be done by a great defender and great team defensive scheme ala Miami a few years ago when Rose was the MVP) I don't think the Bulls have another true elite scorer to pick up the slack if a team focuses on Rose.

The East is so wide open....big time.

The Spurs are the champs...and they will be right there as always. Age and health is their only concern.

Not sure what you mean about the Rockets. They were 11th in defensive efficiency last year and I'd say they've slightly upgraded this year, no?

Yeah that was a weird comment. Elite defenders at PG, SF, and C. Ariza is a huge upgrade on Parsons on that end.

I think the Rockets are good defensively.....but I am talking elite championship like defense....and that is needed to get out of the West IMO. You have to be able to slow down OKC, The Spurs, The Clippers to get out of the West.

Champions play championship defense. I have not seen evidence of The Rockets having that championship team defensive philosophy.

Spurs? Now your talking.

They've played two games, back to back road wins where they held the opponent to an average of 91.5 ppg. And neither the 2010-11 Western Conference champion Mavs (7th) nor the 2011-2012 Western Conference champion Thunder (9th) ranked in the top 5 in the league in defensive efficiency.

So when are the Rockets getting to the Finals then? Because it has not happened despite statistically being stronger....in the regular season.

Doing it in the post season is what I am really talking about. Evidence in the post season is the way I should have stated it.

 

[Bobcat10]

Todem picking Cleveland apart all year is going to be fun.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

I wish I hadn't got involved in this discussion.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Re: Charlotte having the best starting five outside of Cleveland...I haven't given it much thought but imagine the Clippers and Spurs are in the discussion with a few others (bulls, rockets, lakers) having a case.

Well, not the lakers. Couldn't help myself.

The Rockets achilles heal will probably be team defense. Lot's of talent, and they can score with anyone...but that team defense is a must in May and June.Clippers are stout. Bulls with a truly healthy Rose...stout...but where is the other true elite scorer? I just don't see that and if you shut down Rose (which can be done by a great defender and great team defensive scheme ala Miami a few years ago when Rose was the MVP) I don't think the Bulls have another true elite scorer to pick up the slack if a team focuses on Rose.

The East is so wide open....big time.

The Spurs are the champs...and they will be right there as always. Age and health is their only concern.

Not sure what you mean about the Rockets. They were 11th in defensive efficiency last year and I'd say they've slightly upgraded this year, no?

Yeah that was a weird comment. Elite defenders at PG, SF, and C. Ariza is a huge upgrade on Parsons on that end.

I think the Rockets are good defensively.....but I am talking elite championship like defense....and that is needed to get out of the West IMO. You have to be able to slow down OKC, The Spurs, The Clippers to get out of the West.

Champions play championship defense. I have not seen evidence of The Rockets having that championship team defensive philosophy.

Spurs? Now your talking.

They've played two games, back to back road wins where they held the opponent to an average of 91.5 ppg. And neither the 2010-11 Western Conference champion Mavs (7th) nor the 2011-2012 Western Conference champion Thunder (9th) ranked in the top 5 in the league in defensive efficiency.

So when are the Rockets getting to the Finals then? Because it has not happened despite statistically being stronger....in the regular season.

Doing it in the post season is what I am really talking about. Evidence in the post season is the way I should have stated it.

I don't think they're getting to the Finals, I think they're looking at a season similar to last season. But you said that they have "lots of talent and can score with anyone," but "their achilles heel will probably be team defense." I'm just trying to understand what you mean, considering that they were above-average defensively last year and should be improved this year.

Needing evidence of postseason success before you can predict postseason success seems kinda silly to me- if that were true we'd never see new teams emerge and succeed in the postseason. But if you must: Oklahoma City was 12th of the 16 postseason teams in defensive efficiency in 2012. Dallas was 9th in 2011. Los Angeles was 7th in 2010.

 

[Todem]

Todem picking Cleveland apart all year is going to be fun.

You know me...hot sports takes galore on the Cav's all year.

Christmas day has a big circle around it.....those tickets are sitting in my drawer with a red ribbon around them. Crazy thing is...I could easily get 750-1000 a piece for them. That is a pickle....because it's only a regular season game.

Listen there is no question The Cav's should be a heck of a squad...but I look forward to rooting very hard against them. Loved Lebron for 4 years...appreciate the greatness he has and brought here to my Heaters, but he left. Not on my team anymore.

Screw him and karma will sneak up and bite him on his ###...mark it. I can already feel the rumblings of Kevin Love not fitting in nor comfortable without the ball, Dion Waiters not getting enough shots, Kyrie with a sore ######, and the Cav's leaning on Shawn Marion, Mike Miller and James Jones....good luck.

Wade and Bosh are getting seriously shortchanged in this entire story. Without those two...James fingers are empty. Kyrie and Love are not in the same class as Bosh and Wade....it will be proven over the course of time.

HOT SPORTS TAKE!!!!

 

[Todem]

Re: Charlotte having the best starting five outside of Cleveland...I haven't given it much thought but imagine the Clippers and Spurs are in the discussion with a few others (bulls, rockets, lakers) having a case.

Well, not the lakers. Couldn't help myself.

The Rockets achilles heal will probably be team defense. Lot's of talent, and they can score with anyone...but that team defense is a must in May and June.Clippers are stout. Bulls with a truly healthy Rose...stout...but where is the other true elite scorer? I just don't see that and if you shut down Rose (which can be done by a great defender and great team defensive scheme ala Miami a few years ago when Rose was the MVP) I don't think the Bulls have another true elite scorer to pick up the slack if a team focuses on Rose.

The East is so wide open....big time.

The Spurs are the champs...and they will be right there as always. Age and health is their only concern.

Not sure what you mean about the Rockets. They were 11th in defensive efficiency last year and I'd say they've slightly upgraded this year, no?

Yeah that was a weird comment. Elite defenders at PG, SF, and C. Ariza is a huge upgrade on Parsons on that end.

I think the Rockets are good defensively.....but I am talking elite championship like defense....and that is needed to get out of the West IMO. You have to be able to slow down OKC, The Spurs, The Clippers to get out of the West.

Champions play championship defense. I have not seen evidence of The Rockets having that championship team defensive philosophy.

Spurs? Now your talking.

They've played two games, back to back road wins where they held the opponent to an average of 91.5 ppg. And neither the 2010-11 Western Conference champion Mavs (7th) nor the 2011-2012 Western Conference champion Thunder (9th) ranked in the top 5 in the league in defensive efficiency.

So when are the Rockets getting to the Finals then? Because it has not happened despite statistically being stronger....in the regular season.

Doing it in the post season is what I am really talking about. Evidence in the post season is the way I should have stated it.

I don't think they're getting to the Finals, I think they're looking at a season similar to last season. But you said that they have "lots of talent and can score with anyone," but "their achilles heel will probably be team defense." I'm just trying to understand what you mean, considering that they were above-average defensively last year and should be improved this year.

Needing evidence of postseason success before you can predict postseason success seems kinda silly to me- if that were true we'd never see new teams emerge and succeed in the postseason. But if you must: Oklahoma City was 12th of the 16 postseason teams in defensive efficiency in 2012. Dallas was 9th in 2011. Los Angeles was 7th in 2010.

Tobias,

I am curious as to why you think with all that offensive talent and a haus like Dwight at the center position they won't make it to the Finals. Is it scoring? Or is it they can't play good enough defense to slow down guys like Westbrook, Durant, Paul, Griffin, Duncan, Parker etc. Yeah on paper they should be even better on defense. Is it they just don't match up well with any of those elite teams in the West?

Just curious. Because I think the Rockets are just as talented as all those teams....but I don't believe they play championship defense to get them over the top. That's all.

 

[Todem]

Dellusional Homerism is the essence of being a fan of your team.

Otherwise...what's the point???

LOL.

And The Heat are the only team I can have that with.

Dolphins....SUCK

Panthers...SUCK

Marlins...Sell it all off after they lose control (and hope they can win before then ala 2003).

The Heat are the only true championship DNA team down here!!!

GO HEAT!!!!

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Screw him and karma will sneak up and bite him on his ###...mark it.

karma? for what?

 

[TobiasFunke]

Re: Charlotte having the best starting five outside of Cleveland...I haven't given it much thought but imagine the Clippers and Spurs are in the discussion with a few others (bulls, rockets, lakers) having a case.

Well, not the lakers. Couldn't help myself.

The Rockets achilles heal will probably be team defense. Lot's of talent, and they can score with anyone...but that team defense is a must in May and June.Clippers are stout. Bulls with a truly healthy Rose...stout...but where is the other true elite scorer? I just don't see that and if you shut down Rose (which can be done by a great defender and great team defensive scheme ala Miami a few years ago when Rose was the MVP) I don't think the Bulls have another true elite scorer to pick up the slack if a team focuses on Rose.

The East is so wide open....big time.

The Spurs are the champs...and they will be right there as always. Age and health is their only concern.

Not sure what you mean about the Rockets. They were 11th in defensive efficiency last year and I'd say they've slightly upgraded this year, no?

Yeah that was a weird comment. Elite defenders at PG, SF, and C. Ariza is a huge upgrade on Parsons on that end.

I think the Rockets are good defensively.....but I am talking elite championship like defense....and that is needed to get out of the West IMO. You have to be able to slow down OKC, The Spurs, The Clippers to get out of the West.

Champions play championship defense. I have not seen evidence of The Rockets having that championship team defensive philosophy.

Spurs? Now your talking.

They've played two games, back to back road wins where they held the opponent to an average of 91.5 ppg. And neither the 2010-11 Western Conference champion Mavs (7th) nor the 2011-2012 Western Conference champion Thunder (9th) ranked in the top 5 in the league in defensive efficiency.

So when are the Rockets getting to the Finals then? Because it has not happened despite statistically being stronger....in the regular season.

Doing it in the post season is what I am really talking about. Evidence in the post season is the way I should have stated it.

I don't think they're getting to the Finals, I think they're looking at a season similar to last season. But you said that they have "lots of talent and can score with anyone," but "their achilles heel will probably be team defense." I'm just trying to understand what you mean, considering that they were above-average defensively last year and should be improved this year.

Needing evidence of postseason success before you can predict postseason success seems kinda silly to me- if that were true we'd never see new teams emerge and succeed in the postseason. But if you must: Oklahoma City was 12th of the 16 postseason teams in defensive efficiency in 2012. Dallas was 9th in 2011. Los Angeles was 7th in 2010.

Tobias,

I am curious as to why you think with all that offensive talent and a haus like Dwight at the center position they won't make it to the Finals. Is it scoring? Or is it they can't play good enough defense to slow down guys like Westbrook, Durant, Paul, Griffin, Duncan, Parker etc. Yeah on paper they should be even better on defense. Is it they just don't match up well with any of those elite teams in the West?

Just curious. Because I think the Rockets are just as talented as all those teams....but I don't believe they play championship defense to get them over the top. That's all.

I don't think they'll make the Finals because they are good but not great on both sides of the ball, lack depth in a conference where three of the four top contenders are ridiculously deep, and play in the West. It's not just one factor. As every non-Spurs West champion of the last five years shows, you don't to be a great defensive team in the playoffs to win.

 

[Gr00vus]

Screw him and karma will sneak up and bite him on his ###...mark it.

karma? for what?

I hear he's a messy potato chip eater - very messy.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I feel like Parker, Duncan, and Ginobili are getting underrated here.

Maybe you guys are limiting the discussion of 38 min/game & 22 shots/game guys, but if Parker/Duncan/Ginobili don't fall into the category of elite offensive players for most of their primes (and past it), then somebody is doing it wrong.

Including those 3 as elite scorers means you have about 40 elite scorers in the league and not just because of minutes. Thats a pretty broad definition of 'elite'.

 

[Freelove]

Karma is when God knows in advance that you will one day screw over your hometown, then regret it and feel compelled to return forever...so he makes sure you're going to be from Greater Cleveland.

 

[Premier]

Todem picking Cleveland apart all year is going to be fun.

You know me...hot sports takes galore on the Cav's all year.Christmas day has a big circle around it.....those tickets are sitting in my drawer with a red ribbon around them. Crazy thing is...I could easily get 750-1000 a piece for them. That is a pickle....because it's only a regular season game.

Listen there is no question The Cav's should be a heck of a squad...but I look forward to rooting very hard against them. Loved Lebron for 4 years...appreciate the greatness he has and brought here to my Heaters, but he left. Not on my team anymore.

Screw him and karma will sneak up and bite him on his ###...mark it. I can already feel the rumblings of Kevin Love not fitting in nor comfortable without the ball, Dion Waiters not getting enough shots, Kyrie with a sore ######, and the Cav's leaning on Shawn Marion, Mike Miller and James Jones....good luck.

Wade and Bosh are getting seriously shortchanged in this entire story. Without those two...James fingers are empty. Kyrie and Love are not in the same class as Bosh and Wade....it will be proven over the course of time.

HOT SPORTS TAKE!!!!

Karma?

 

[pollardsvision]

I feel like Parker, Duncan, and Ginobili are getting underrated here.

Maybe you guys are limiting the discussion of 38 min/game & 22 shots/game guys, but if Parker/Duncan/Ginobili don't fall into the category of elite offensive players for most of their primes (and past it), then somebody is doing it wrong.

Including those 3 as elite scorers means you have about 40 elite scorers in the league and not just because of minutes. Thats a pretty broad definition of 'elite'.

I wasn't really meaning Ginobili now, but for Parker and Duncan, I don't see why not. If Irving is being put into this class without any hesitation, then Parker's in it. He's obviously not the 3-point shooter Irving is, but we're talking about a guy that was a legitimate MVP candidate 2 and 3 years ago. And it wasn't for his shut down defense.

And 38 YO Tim Duncan is still one of the best offensive bigs in the League.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

I'm elite too.

 

[Sebowski]

Someone say Homerism? Wizards win the East! John Wall MVP. Mark it, Dude.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I feel like Parker, Duncan, and Ginobili are getting underrated here.

Maybe you guys are limiting the discussion of 38 min/game & 22 shots/game guys, but if Parker/Duncan/Ginobili don't fall into the category of elite offensive players for most of their primes (and past it), then somebody is doing it wrong.

Including those 3 as elite scorers means you have about 40 elite scorers in the league and not just because of minutes. Thats a pretty broad definition of 'elite'.

I wasn't really meaning Ginobili now, but for Parker and Duncan, I don't see why not. If Irving is being put into this class without any hesitation, then Parker's in it. He's obviously not the 3-point shooter Irving is, but we're talking about a guy that was a legitimate MVP candidate 2 and 3 years ago. And it wasn't for his shut down defense.

And 38 YO Tim Duncan is still one of the best offensive bigs in the League.

Again its your definition of elite. If Parker is elite, then so is Wall, Irving, Westbrook, Paul, Lilliard, Curry, Lowry, Thomas, Lawson and Dragic. Kind of tough to call a third of the starting PGs in the league 'elite'. Semantics.

 

[Todem]

I feel like Parker, Duncan, and Ginobili are getting underrated here.

Maybe you guys are limiting the discussion of 38 min/game & 22 shots/game guys, but if Parker/Duncan/Ginobili don't fall into the category of elite offensive players for most of their primes (and past it), then somebody is doing it wrong.

Including those 3 as elite scorers means you have about 40 elite scorers in the league and not just because of minutes. Thats a pretty broad definition of 'elite'.

I wasn't really meaning Ginobili now, but for Parker and Duncan, I don't see why not. If Irving is being put into this class without any hesitation, then Parker's in it. He's obviously not the 3-point shooter Irving is, but we're talking about a guy that was a legitimate MVP candidate 2 and 3 years ago. And it wasn't for his shut down defense.

And 38 YO Tim Duncan is still one of the best offensive bigs in the League.

Again its your definition of elite. If Parker is elite, then so is Wall, Irving, Westbrook, Paul, Lilliard, Curry, Lowry, Thomas, Lawson and Dragic. Kind of tough to call a third of the starting PGs in the league 'elite'. Semantics.

You're selling Parker short. I think Westbrook is on the cusp (my MVP pick this year...yeah a long shot but I think this kid takes the alpha dog role in Durants absence and runs with it to keep his team atop till KD's return). Wall is on the cusp as well as he is no doubt the fastest PG I think I have ever seen.

Parker yes...elite IMO.

The other two on the cusp. The rest are not.

 

[Spartans Rule]

Re: Charlotte having the best starting five outside of Cleveland...I haven't given it much thought but imagine the Clippers and Spurs are in the discussion with a few others (bulls, rockets, lakers) having a case.

Well, not the lakers. Couldn't help myself.

The Rockets achilles heal will probably be team defense. Lot's of talent, and they can score with anyone...but that team defense is a must in May and June.Clippers are stout. Bulls with a truly healthy Rose...stout...but where is the other true elite scorer? I just don't see that and if you shut down Rose (which can be done by a great defender and great team defensive scheme ala Miami a few years ago when Rose was the MVP) I don't think the Bulls have another true elite scorer to pick up the slack if a team focuses on Rose.

The East is so wide open....big time.

The Spurs are the champs...and they will be right there as always. Age and health is their only concern.

Not sure what you mean about the Rockets. They were 11th in defensive efficiency last year and I'd say they've slightly upgraded this year, no?

Yeah that was a weird comment. Elite defenders at PG, SF, and C. Ariza is a huge upgrade on Parsons on that end.

I think the Rockets are good defensively.....but I am talking elite championship like defense....and that is needed to get out of the West IMO. You have to be able to slow down OKC, The Spurs, The Clippers to get out of the West.

Champions play championship defense. I have not seen evidence of The Rockets having that championship team defensive philosophy.

Spurs? Now your talking.

They've played two games, back to back road wins where they held the opponent to an average of 91.5 ppg. And neither the 2010-11 Western Conference champion Mavs (7th) nor the 2011-2012 Western Conference champion Thunder (9th) ranked in the top 5 in the league in defensive efficiency.

So when are the Rockets getting to the Finals then? Because it has not happened despite statistically being stronger....in the regular season.

Doing it in the post season is what I am really talking about. Evidence in the post season is the way I should have stated it.

I don't think they're getting to the Finals, I think they're looking at a season similar to last season. But you said that they have "lots of talent and can score with anyone," but "their achilles heel will probably be team defense." I'm just trying to understand what you mean, considering that they were above-average defensively last year and should be improved this year.

Needing evidence of postseason success before you can predict postseason success seems kinda silly to me- if that were true we'd never see new teams emerge and succeed in the postseason. But if you must: Oklahoma City was 12th of the 16 postseason teams in defensive efficiency in 2012. Dallas was 9th in 2011. Los Angeles was 7th in 2010.

Surprised this conversation went on this long without Todem bringing up the obvious - the Rockets can only be so good defensively when they spend 3/4 of every game with one defender not paying any attention.

Now it's not like Harden is the only guy in the league who doesn't guard, and with Beverley, Ariza and Howard the Rockets are as well suited as any team to cover for him. It's not that the Rockets don't have a "championship team defensive philosophy" - whatever that means - they just need one more guy to buy into it.

 

[urbanhack]

I wish I hadn't got involved in this discussion.

maybe you should get siced up tonight.

 

[Sammy3469]

I'm elite too.

SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

I wish I hadn't got involved in this discussion.

maybe you should get siced up tonight.

Already pretty siced.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Todem picking Cleveland apart all year is going to be fun.

You know me...hot sports takes galore on the Cav's all year.

Christmas day has a big circle around it.....those tickets are sitting in my drawer with a red ribbon around them. Crazy thing is...I could easily get 750-1000 a piece for them. That is a pickle....because it's only a regular season game.

Listen there is no question The Cav's should be a heck of a squad...but I look forward to rooting very hard against them. Loved Lebron for 4 years...appreciate the greatness he has and brought here to my Heaters, but he left. Not on my team anymore.

Screw him and karma will sneak up and bite him on his ###...mark it. I can already feel the rumblings of Kevin Love not fitting in nor comfortable without the ball, Dion Waiters not getting enough shots, Kyrie with a sore ######, and the Cav's leaning on Shawn Marion, Mike Miller and James Jones....good luck.

Wade and Bosh are getting seriously shortchanged in this entire story. Without those two...James fingers are empty. Kyrie and Love are not in the same class as Bosh and Wade....it will be proven over the course of time.

HOT SPORTS TAKE!!!!

And without LeBron, Bosh is still without a playoff series win and Wade still has only one ring, and possibly still zero playoff series wins since 2006.

Oh, and karma is crap. No such thing.

 

[Todem]

Todem picking Cleveland apart all year is going to be fun.

You know me...hot sports takes galore on the Cav's all year.Christmas day has a big circle around it.....those tickets are sitting in my drawer with a red ribbon around them. Crazy thing is...I could easily get 750-1000 a piece for them. That is a pickle....because it's only a regular season game.

Listen there is no question The Cav's should be a heck of a squad...but I look forward to rooting very hard against them. Loved Lebron for 4 years...appreciate the greatness he has and brought here to my Heaters, but he left. Not on my team anymore.

Screw him and karma will sneak up and bite him on his ###...mark it. I can already feel the rumblings of Kevin Love not fitting in nor comfortable without the ball, Dion Waiters not getting enough shots, Kyrie with a sore ######, and the Cav's leaning on Shawn Marion, Mike Miller and James Jones....good luck.

Wade and Bosh are getting seriously shortchanged in this entire story. Without those two...James fingers are empty. Kyrie and Love are not in the same class as Bosh and Wade....it will be proven over the course of time.

HOT SPORTS TAKE!!!!

Karma?

Us Heat Lifers took some offense to his treatment of Riley and Micky. Shleping him (Riley) out to Vegas knowing full well he was long gone...ignoring all his text's, and attempts at talking to him...he came here to win titles...and he did. He left in a way that..well we (the fans) are kinda sour (not all too upset but it was shocking he left this quick). Can you blame us? We lost the best player in the NBA. Look at what Celveland did...LOL Burned jerseys!!!! Owner pissed all over him with a public letter that stayed on the web site till a week before the prodigal son...."went home" sniff sniff. It was all a brilliant PR move by his team. The world loves Lebron again. Absolute brilliance no question. I am sure a lot more will come out over the course of the season of how it all went down. More details etc...Wade was not happy. No question he felt snubbed. So did Bosh. Those two are playing with huge chips on their shoulders this year.

What I find hilarious about the sports media is some former players (Charles cough cough Barkley, Magic cough cough Johnson) were all over him for teaming up with Dwayne and Chris to chase a title. He left to win. And win he did. But when he picks up again...after going to four straight Finals mind you he is applauded because of a nice brilliantly concocted puff piece about going home. When I first read it...I was actually touched. Then I read into the business of Lebron. This was a brilliant image move, a brilliant money move (and in all fairness if this is what he wanted for his family I can't argue with that...family is always first) with the new TV deal coming down. He went back to an owner who never was able to deliver for him the right teammates. It took some ping pong ball luck (due to his exodus ironically) for Lebron to parlay his move back, get what he thinks are the right pieces to win...not two, not three not four, but just one title for his hometown.

All pressure off Lebron.

Absolute brilliance.

So let's talk about the sports side of things. If you have ever played team sports at higher levels (High School , College as I was a baseball player and still play in a men's over 30 hardball league) and had some success. You understand the dynamic of the locker room, dugout, bench whatever you want to call it. You understand the sweat, the work and the pain you pour in to win together. These guys played their hearts out together for 4 straight years, with targets on their backs (rightfully so) and lost pretty badly the last time out to a great and better Spurs team. As Riley said "you don't go out the nearest back door" "You come back" "If you got the guts". I never expected Lebron to be a "Heat Lifer" But I expected him to fight one more time with his teammates after getting their ### whipped. I thought he was a fierce competitor, a tireless worker who wanted to win titles. You leave on that note? Karma.

Watch the man talk about what the NBA is really all about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW3u4PdkKDg

I question Lebron's guts now. Not as a player on the court. But as player on a team. As a captain. He quit on Bosh and Wade. Those two came back. Those are my guys. That is my team that I have been rooting for and been a season ticket holder for going on 26 years now. So understand where my passion comes from. I am a real Heat fan. As I said right when he left. I loved him for those 4 years, he gave us some of the greatest basketball I have ever witnessed, and I enjoyed every second of it. But with all that being said?

Screw Lebron.

We can win without him. We have before...we will again!

Let's see if he can win just one title without the 2 best teammates he will ever have.

I doubt it.

But if he does? Bravo (well not really).

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Horrible.

 

[Todem]

Todem picking Cleveland apart all year is going to be fun.

You know me...hot sports takes galore on the Cav's all year.

Christmas day has a big circle around it.....those tickets are sitting in my drawer with a red ribbon around them. Crazy thing is...I could easily get 750-1000 a piece for them. That is a pickle....because it's only a regular season game.

Listen there is no question The Cav's should be a heck of a squad...but I look forward to rooting very hard against them. Loved Lebron for 4 years...appreciate the greatness he has and brought here to my Heaters, but he left. Not on my team anymore.

Screw him and karma will sneak up and bite him on his ###...mark it. I can already feel the rumblings of Kevin Love not fitting in nor comfortable without the ball, Dion Waiters not getting enough shots, Kyrie with a sore ######, and the Cav's leaning on Shawn Marion, Mike Miller and James Jones....good luck.

Wade and Bosh are getting seriously shortchanged in this entire story. Without those two...James fingers are empty. Kyrie and Love are not in the same class as Bosh and Wade....it will be proven over the course of time.

HOT SPORTS TAKE!!!!

And without LeBron, Bosh is still without a playoff series win and Wade still has only one ring, and possibly still zero playoff series wins since 2006.

Oh, and karma is crap. No such thing.

Whoooo that is surprising Ghost. I believe in Karma.

I am not cynical like Neil

I am more like Alex....happy go lucky man. It is better to give than receive. I have seen Karma at work my entire life. But that is purely belief and not factual. I get it.

 

[Todem]

Todem picking Cleveland apart all year is going to be fun.

You know me...hot sports takes galore on the Cav's all year.

Christmas day has a big circle around it.....those tickets are sitting in my drawer with a red ribbon around them. Crazy thing is...I could easily get 750-1000 a piece for them. That is a pickle....because it's only a regular season game.

Listen there is no question The Cav's should be a heck of a squad...but I look forward to rooting very hard against them. Loved Lebron for 4 years...appreciate the greatness he has and brought here to my Heaters, but he left. Not on my team anymore.

Screw him and karma will sneak up and bite him on his ###...mark it. I can already feel the rumblings of Kevin Love not fitting in nor comfortable without the ball, Dion Waiters not getting enough shots, Kyrie with a sore ######, and the Cav's leaning on Shawn Marion, Mike Miller and James Jones....good luck.

Wade and Bosh are getting seriously shortchanged in this entire story. Without those two...James fingers are empty. Kyrie and Love are not in the same class as Bosh and Wade....it will be proven over the course of time.

HOT SPORTS TAKE!!!!

And without LeBron, Bosh is still without a playoff series win and Wade still has only one ring, and possibly still zero playoff series wins since 2006.

Oh, and karma is crap. No such thing.

Oh....and it takes a team.

Let's see if Cleveland has a team that can do what Miami did the last 4 years.

Doubt it.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Todem picking Cleveland apart all year is going to be fun.

You know me...hot sports takes galore on the Cav's all year.

Christmas day has a big circle around it.....those tickets are sitting in my drawer with a red ribbon around them. Crazy thing is...I could easily get 750-1000 a piece for them. That is a pickle....because it's only a regular season game.

Listen there is no question The Cav's should be a heck of a squad...but I look forward to rooting very hard against them. Loved Lebron for 4 years...appreciate the greatness he has and brought here to my Heaters, but he left. Not on my team anymore.

Screw him and karma will sneak up and bite him on his ###...mark it. I can already feel the rumblings of Kevin Love not fitting in nor comfortable without the ball, Dion Waiters not getting enough shots, Kyrie with a sore ######, and the Cav's leaning on Shawn Marion, Mike Miller and James Jones....good luck.

Wade and Bosh are getting seriously shortchanged in this entire story. Without those two...James fingers are empty. Kyrie and Love are not in the same class as Bosh and Wade....it will be proven over the course of time.

HOT SPORTS TAKE!!!!

And without LeBron, Bosh is still without a playoff series win and Wade still has only one ring, and possibly still zero playoff series wins since 2006.

Oh, and karma is crap. No such thing.

Oh....and it takes a team.

Let's see if Cleveland has a team that can do what Miami did the last 4 years.

Doubt it.

I'm pretty sure they have a team in Cleveland. There's uniforms and everything.