*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (6 Viewers)

[wadegarrett]

Ok, who is the early pre season favs next year?

I will take a crack at it

1 Heatles

2 Thunder

3 Lakers

4 Mavs

5 Bulls

Odds to win 2012 NBA Championship

Miami Heat 2/1

Chicago Bulls 6/1

Oklahoma City Thunder 7/1

Los Angeles Lakers 7/1

Dallas Mavericks 7/1

Boston Celtics 8/1

San Antonio Spurs 15/1

Orlando Magic 20/1

Denver Nuggets 25/1

New York Knicks 30/1

Portland Blazers 30/1

New Orleans Hornets 40/1

Memphis Grizzlies 40/1

Atlanta Hawks 50/1

Philadelphia 76ers 60/1

New Jersey Nets 60/1

Los Angeles Clippers 75/1

Houston Rockets 100/1

Milwaukee Bucks 100/1

Indiana Pacers 100/1

Golden State Warriors 100/1

Utah Jazz 100/1

Phoenix Suns 100/1

Sacramento Kings 100/1

Charlotte Bobcats 100/1

Cleveland Cavaliers 100/1

Washington Wizards 100/1

Detroit Pistons 200/1

Minnesota T-Wolves 300/1

Toronto Raptors 300/1

 

[culdeus]

I think you value mine here. West may be down so one of these might sneak out if most of the main pieces stay in place.

Portland Blazers 30/1New Orleans Hornets 40/1Memphis Grizzlies 40/1

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

But it's so few games- like maybe 2 or 3- that I'm not really ready to make some sort of grand conclusion about it.

At this point it isn't just 2 or 3. He's establishing a track record, and he hit an all time low here these last few games, so it's going in the wrong direction for him. At this point he should be conquering those demons. Instead they seem to be getting worse. He just posted the worst regular season/finals point differential of all time by a large margin - he's also 5th or 6th on that list for his previous finals performance. That's not a subjective thing in any way.

Really? Here's my count of games where I thought he was phoning it in:vs. Celtics in Game 5 last year.

vs. Mavericks in Game 4 this year.

Maybe vs. Mavericks in Game 5 this year.

Maybe last night if you really really want to stretch it.

But I think you have to decide how you're measuring it, and you can't have Game 5 and Game 6 both count. If you're counting Game 5 because he didn't score, especially in the 4th, you don't count Game 6 because he put up 7 in the 4th and had a respectable point total while shooting very very good percentage. If you count Game 6 because of the weaker than average non-scoring stats, then you can't count Game 5 because he had a triple double. So that's three games, depending on how you look at it.

What else is there?

The point about the dropoff in scoring is interesting. It's a decent criticism, but I wonder how many people have been in LeBron's situation. It's kind of an unusual one. It's not like he was cold- he shot 48% for the series. So the question is, was the reduction in volume due to having at least one and arguably two other stars as options when the Mavs' defense swarmed him, or due to him not being aggressive enough? I think probably a little of both.

Agree with this. He had a triple double in game 5. I thought the Mavs played very good defense against Lebron, better than the Bulls did. I really think alot of it was coaching. Spoelstra was clueless out there. They finally ran Lebron on some baseline picks, where he got the ball near the basket and scored. I think if you switch coaches, the Heat win the series.

In your head that might happen...I think if the Bulls had a different coach they take down Miami.

 

[Gr00vus]

It's not like he was cold- he shot 48% for the series.

You're shooting 48%, you need to be taking more shots, and you need to want to take more shots.

 

[TobiasFunke]

It's not like he was cold- he shot 48% for the series.

You're shooting 48%, you need to be taking more shots, and you need to want to take more shots.

I disagree. It's a team sport- you want the most productive possible shot for your team. No matter how good you are, there comes a point where you're better off passing than shooting. If the Mavs had quadruple-teamed him, his best course of action would have been to go 0 for 0 every game.I agree with you and everyone else that he should have been more assertive in this series, but I don't agree that we can conclude that simply by looking at how many points he scored and what percentage of shots he made.

 

[Kev4029]

It's not like he was cold- he shot 48% for the series.

You're shooting 48%, you need to be taking more shots, and you need to want to take more shots.

Part of the reason he had a fairly high % was because he was picking his spots. Dallas did a very very good job on him this series.

 

[biggamer3]

I think you value mine here. West may be down so one of these might sneak out if most of the main pieces stay in place.

Portland Blazers 30/1New Orleans Hornets 40/1Memphis Grizzlies 40/1

Memphis and Portland i can understand, the Hornets have zero chance. Zero

 

[B-Deep]

LeBron James is the best player in basketball. I don't know why he didn't play well in this series. I say it's partly matchup, partly he still doesn't quite understand his role with Wade, partly poor coaching by Spoelstra, partly great coaching by Carlisle, partly great defense by Dallas, and partly that James just didn't play well. But he's still the best player in the NBA. I believe he is still a clutch player as well, and I predict that before his career is finished these questions and criticisms will be largely forgotten.

at some point maybe he will be a clutch player, but he averaged what, 3 points per game in the 4th quarter of then finalsthat is not clutch, sorry

 

[Gr00vus]

I agree with you and everyone else that he should have been more assertive in this series, but I don't agree that we can conclude that simply by looking at how many points he scored and what percentage of shots he made.

Right, he was mostly passive on defense after game 3 too. He also just looked out of it from that time forward. There definitely is more to his collapse here than points.

 

[Charlie Frown]

Heh.

Is this the 4th or 5th time this has been posted in the FFA in the last 12-13 hours?Maybe you could find a YouTube clip of IT'S ALL THE ARGUMENT I NEED SEAN. Haven't seen that for at least two hours.

I just did it for the lulz.

 

[Gr00vus]

It's not like he was cold- he shot 48% for the series.

You're shooting 48%, you need to be taking more shots, and you need to want to take more shots.

Part of the reason he had a fairly high % was because he was picking his spots. Dallas did a very very good job on him this series.

He saw plenty of single coverage that he didn't bother to exploit. I've also seen him handle double teams much better than he did to close out the series. Many of his passes were to guys who weren't in position to score or in position to get the 3rd guy to score either, they were just useless shuttles around the perimeter. It's like he was making a show of how willing he was to pass - look at me I'm a great teammate!

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

It's not like he was cold- he shot 48% for the series.

You're shooting 48%, you need to be taking more shots, and you need to want to take more shots.

I disagree. It's a team sport- you want the most productive possible shot for your team. No matter how good you are, there comes a point where you're better off passing than shooting. If the Mavs had quadruple-teamed him, his best course of action would have been to go 0 for 0 every game.I agree with you and everyone else that he should have been more assertive in this series, but I don't agree that we can conclude that simply by looking at how many points he scored and what percentage of shots he made.

So last year, when Roddy White was often being doubled teamed the Falcons should've been going to Michael Jenkins or Harry Douglas or Brian Finneran???They are getting attention for a reason...and they need to get the ball or shoot the ball more often than the other players.

 

[timschochet]

LeBron James is the best player in basketball. I don't know why he didn't play well in this series. I say it's partly matchup, partly he still doesn't quite understand his role with Wade, partly poor coaching by Spoelstra, partly great coaching by Carlisle, partly great defense by Dallas, and partly that James just didn't play well. But he's still the best player in the NBA. I believe he is still a clutch player as well, and I predict that before his career is finished these questions and criticisms will be largely forgotten.

at some point maybe he will be a clutch player, but he averaged what, 3 points per game in the 4th quarter of then finalsthat is not clutch, sorry

It wasn't clutch in the Finals, I agree. But look what he did against Boston and Chicago. Those are important series as well. You have to call those clutch.

 

[biggamer3]

Cuban just said he will pay for the Mavs victory parade in Dallas. Now that is one class act by him. How many billionaires will turn down free government funds?

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

It's not like he was cold- he shot 48% for the series.

You're shooting 48%, you need to be taking more shots, and you need to want to take more shots.

Part of the reason he had a fairly high % was because he was picking his spots. Dallas did a very very good job on him this series.

He saw plenty of single coverage that he didn't bother to exploit. I've also seen him handle double teams much better than he did to close out the series. Many of his passes were to guys who weren't in position to score or in position to get the 3rd guy to score either, they were just useless shuttles around the perimeter. It's like he was making a show of how willing he was to pass - look at me I'm a great teammate!

ExactlyThe "best player in the NBA" apparently should be able to take anyone one on one.

 

[Bobcat10]

Strikes making this unreadable like he does with every other thread he posts in.

Yeah, I should just pull out the Kobe rape card like you.

I mentioned Kobe somewhere? Thanks for being awful as per usual, you make everyone throw up a little with every one of your posts.

 

[timschochet]

if Erik Spoelstra was coaching Dallas, and Rick Carlisle was coaching Miami, the Heat would have won.

True or false?

 

[Gr00vus]

if Erik Spoelstra was coaching Dallas, and Rick Carlisle was coaching Miami, the Heat would have won. True or false?

Depends. Can Carlisle transplant Robert Horry's brain into LeBron James's head?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Can someone please give me the definition of clutch? 4th q? Last 5 of the 4th q? 4th Q of the finals? 4th Q of the playoffs? How many points does a player need to score to be clutch? What fg%? Do assists count as being clutch?

 

[Sinn Fein]

if Erik Spoelstra was coaching Dallas, and Rick Carlisle was coaching Miami, the Heat would have won. True or false?

The Heat would have probably beat the Thunder.

 

[culdeus]

if Erik Spoelstra was coaching Dallas, and Rick Carlisle was coaching Miami, the Heat would have won. True or false?

End of Game 2 would have been interesting with the roles swapped.

 

[got_nugs]

Cuban just said he will pay for the Mavs victory parade in Dallas. Now that is one class act by him. How many billionaires will turn down free government funds?

I'm really warming up to that dude...who I had soured on after the 2006 Heat/Mavs series. I was .01% happy for him and Dirk even. Anyone hear Cuban say that Lebron was taking too much criticism and he would be welcomed on every NBA team? This seems understandable coming from the guy who dealt with it from Dirk for years.

 

[TobiasFunke]

if Erik Spoelstra was coaching Dallas, and Rick Carlisle was coaching Miami, the Heat would have won. True or false?

I don't know that I've watched enough NBA to really comment on the coaching. In my opinion that takes a hard-core fan who goes to a bunch of games every year and watches a ton more on TV, and even those people seem like they're full of it sometimes. The Sports Guy used to trash Doc Rivers on a weekly basis; now everyone loves him.But I do know that the coaches of the teams that the Heat took down on the way to the Finals weren't chopped liver. Collins, Rivers and Thibodeau.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Can someone please give me the definition of clutch? 4th q? Last 5 of the 4th q? 4th Q of the finals? 4th Q of the playoffs? How many points does a player need to score to be clutch? What fg%? Do assists count as being clutch?

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."-Justice Potter Stewart

 

[B-Deep]

LeBron James is the best player in basketball. I don't know why he didn't play well in this series. I say it's partly matchup, partly he still doesn't quite understand his role with Wade, partly poor coaching by Spoelstra, partly great coaching by Carlisle, partly great defense by Dallas, and partly that James just didn't play well. But he's still the best player in the NBA. I believe he is still a clutch player as well, and I predict that before his career is finished these questions and criticisms will be largely forgotten.

at some point maybe he will be a clutch player, but he averaged what, 3 points per game in the 4th quarter of then finalsthat is not clutch, sorry

It wasn't clutch in the Finals, I agree. But look what he did against Boston and Chicago. Those are important series as well. You have to call those clutch.

if we are speaking of someone whose goal is to be in the same conversation as detlif schrempf, sureif we are speaking of someone who wants to be in the conversation with jordan, no. Being clutch in 2 playoff series and then choking it away COMLETELY in the finals is not clutch

 

[B-Deep]

Can someone please give me the definition of clutch? 4th q? Last 5 of the 4th q? 4th Q of the finals? 4th Q of the playoffs? How many points does a player need to score to be clutch? What fg%? Do assists count as being clutch?

its like porn, you know it when you see itlebron is sold as the best player in the NBA, as potentially among the all time greatsa player like that cannot average 3 points per 4th quarter in a finals

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Can someone please give me the definition of clutch? 4th q? Last 5 of the 4th q? 4th Q of the finals? 4th Q of the playoffs? How many points does a player need to score to be clutch? What fg%? Do assists count as being clutch?

its like porn, you know it when you see itlebron is sold as the best player in the NBA, as potentially among the all time greatsa player like that cannot average 3 points per 4th quarter in a finals

So was he clutch in the first three round, just not the finals?

 

[No. 16]

Whatever happened to that "Lebron won't win a ring he hasn't made a game winning basket thread"?

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=232066&view=findpost&p=4525165

I thought it was gone!!!It didn't show up under my content! Thank you!

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Can someone please give me the definition of clutch? 4th q? Last 5 of the 4th q? 4th Q of the finals? 4th Q of the playoffs? How many points does a player need to score to be clutch? What fg%? Do assists count as being clutch?

its like porn, you know it when you see itlebron is sold as the best player in the NBA, as potentially among the all time greatsa player like that cannot average 3 points per 4th quarter in a finals

I agree that lebron disappeared, played horribly, deferred, played like a #####, and wasn't clutch. He's still the best player in the league though. He just is. and wade is right behind himAlso, based on this definition that you cannot be the best player in the league if you perform this way in the finals, then players who have not even been to the finals cannot be considered for best player.

 

[Abraham]

Memphis at 40 to 1 is solid.

 

[TobiasFunke]

its like porn, you know it when you see it

People making this analogy here, or really anywhere, should probably know that this argument is usually considered to hsve been an intellectual cop-out. So, maybe not the best line of reasoning to take.

 

[B-Deep]

Can someone please give me the definition of clutch? 4th q? Last 5 of the 4th q? 4th Q of the finals? 4th Q of the playoffs? How many points does a player need to score to be clutch? What fg%? Do assists count as being clutch?

its like porn, you know it when you see itlebron is sold as the best player in the NBA, as potentially among the all time greatsa player like that cannot average 3 points per 4th quarter in a finals

I agree that lebron disappeared, played horribly, deferred, played like a #####, and wasn't clutch. He's still the best player in the league though. He just is. and wade is right behind himAlso, based on this definition that you cannot be the best player in the league if you perform this way in the finals, then players who have not even been to the finals cannot be considered for best player.

he wants to be MJhe wants to be magiche wants to be birdhe is made out to be an all time greatdid any of them ever fade in a finals like this?if he wants to be dominque wilkins, that's finea lot of people would love to be himthere's no shame in thatnot everyone can shine under finals pressure, and thus far he cannothe could turn that around, though he can never erase the choke he did this time around

 

[B-Deep]

its like porn, you know it when you see it

People making this analogy here, or really anywhere, should probably know that this argument is usually considered to hsve been an intellectual cop-out. So, maybe not the best line of reasoning to take.

don't much caresome things cannot be defined accuratelyno one expected that rookie to win the indsy 500, so did he choke by coming in second?well when you have nothing but track and a big lead on the last turn and you turn right into the wall nstead of left into the winners circle you chokedlebron looked great in the playoffs till the finals, where he did not look average, he looked poor when the games matered mostsorry, that's the opposite of clutch by any definition

 

[flapgreen]

if Erik Spoelstra was coaching Dallas, and Rick Carlisle was coaching Miami, the Heat would have won. True or false?

False.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

its like porn, you know it when you see it

People making this analogy here, or really anywhere, should probably know that this argument is usually considered to hsve been an intellectual cop-out. So, maybe not the best line of reasoning to take.

don't much care

some things cannot be defined accurately

no one expected that rookie to win the indsy 500, so did he choke by coming in second?

well when you have nothing but track and a big lead on the last turn and you turn right into the wall nstead of left into the winners circle you choked

lebron looked great in the playoffs till the finals, where he did not look average, he looked poor when the games matered most

sorry, that's the opposite of clutch by any definition

So then your opinion of LeBron's clutchness is inaccurate?

 

[Kev4029]

if Erik Spoelstra was coaching Dallas, and Rick Carlisle was coaching Miami, the Heat would have won. True or false?

Depends. Can Carlisle transplant Robert Horry's brain into LeBron James's head?

So Lebron can sit outside the 3 point line and hope something good comes his way? I thought you guys were complaining about Lebron doing that.

 

[B-Deep]

its like porn, you know it when you see it

People making this analogy here, or really anywhere, should probably know that this argument is usually considered to hsve been an intellectual cop-out. So, maybe not the best line of reasoning to take.

don't much care

some things cannot be defined accurately

no one expected that rookie to win the indsy 500, so did he choke by coming in second?

well when you have nothing but track and a big lead on the last turn and you turn right into the wall nstead of left into the winners circle you choked

lebron looked great in the playoffs till the finals, where he did not look average, he looked poor when the games matered most

sorry, that's the opposite of clutch by any definition

So then your opinion of LeBron's clutchness is inaccurate?

i cannot in one sentance define choke/clutch to accurately encompass every possible scenarioif you look at lebron's finals and think it was a clutch performance we are simply not watching the same sport

 

[General Malaise]

So excited about the Mavs championship! Cuban bringing up Donald Carter to be the first person to receive the trophy was simply awesome.3 decades of almost and we-stink and arrrrgh!-maybe-next-year-we'll-get-better. Of sitting in Reunion Arena watching Dallas draft Randy White, trying to rectify their mistake of not taking Karl Malone. Of the crash&burn of Roy Tarpley.So i'll save an extra cheer for the Mavs of old - Brad Davis and Ro, even Mark Aguirre. Jay Vincent and James Donaldson. Derek Harper and Coach Motta.

Good stuff here, Oso. I grew up in Dallas and remember the excitement of the mid to late 80s...and unfortunately remember the disastrous decade that followed. As bad as Randy White pick was in '89, they didn't even have a first round pick in 1990 and in 1991, took 'the best finisher in the draft'...Doug Smith. Oooooof. That 1992 team was brutal.Nice to see the Mavs get their first ring. All this talk about LaBron's failures is just silly mental masturbation. Mavs were the better team. The End. They took care of the Heat just like they took care of the Blazers, Lakers and Thunder. Happy for the city of Dallas. If only the Rangers can get back to the WS and win, the metroplex will have all four jewels in the sports crown.

 

[got_nugs]

Can someone please give me the definition of clutch? 4th q? Last 5 of the 4th q? 4th Q of the finals? 4th Q of the playoffs? How many points does a player need to score to be clutch? What fg%? Do assists count as being clutch?

its like porn, you know it when you see itlebron is sold as the best player in the NBA, as potentially among the all time greatsa player like that cannot average 3 points per 4th quarter in a finals

I agree that lebron disappeared, played horribly, deferred, played like a #####, and wasn't clutch. He's still the best player in the league though. He just is. and wade is right behind himAlso, based on this definition that you cannot be the best player in the league if you perform this way in the finals, then players who have not even been to the finals cannot be considered for best player.

he wants to be MJhe wants to be magiche wants to be birdhe is made out to be an all time greatdid any of them ever fade in a finals like this?if he wants to be dominque wilkins, that's finea lot of people would love to be himthere's no shame in thatnot everyone can shine under finals pressure, and thus far he cannothe could turn that around, though he can never erase the choke he did this time around

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/731982-nba-finals-lebron-james-isnt-the-first-to-shrink-in-the-finalsHow soon we forget "tragic" johnson.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Can someone please give me the definition of clutch? 4th q? Last 5 of the 4th q? 4th Q of the finals? 4th Q of the playoffs? How many points does a player need to score to be clutch? What fg%? Do assists count as being clutch?

its like porn, you know it when you see itlebron is sold as the best player in the NBA, as potentially among the all time greatsa player like that cannot average 3 points per 4th quarter in a finals

I agree that lebron disappeared, played horribly, deferred, played like a #####, and wasn't clutch. He's still the best player in the league though. He just is. and wade is right behind himAlso, based on this definition that you cannot be the best player in the league if you perform this way in the finals, then players who have not even been to the finals cannot be considered for best player.

he wants to be MJhe wants to be magiche wants to be birdhe is made out to be an all time greatdid any of them ever fade in a finals like this?if he wants to be dominque wilkins, that's finea lot of people would love to be himthere's no shame in thatnot everyone can shine under finals pressure, and thus far he cannothe could turn that around, though he can never erase the choke he did this time around

I am not saying he is at any of those players' level. The all-time argument is a different one than the present day argument. Dirk was the best player in this series and these playoffs. Lebron #2 for the playoffs and probably 3-5 for the finals, despite the poor 4ths. But overall, he is still the best player in the league and will be for several more years most likely.

 

[B-Deep]

Can someone please give me the definition of clutch? 4th q? Last 5 of the 4th q? 4th Q of the finals? 4th Q of the playoffs? How many points does a player need to score to be clutch? What fg%? Do assists count as being clutch?

its like porn, you know it when you see itlebron is sold as the best player in the NBA, as potentially among the all time greatsa player like that cannot average 3 points per 4th quarter in a finals

I agree that lebron disappeared, played horribly, deferred, played like a #####, and wasn't clutch. He's still the best player in the league though. He just is. and wade is right behind himAlso, based on this definition that you cannot be the best player in the league if you perform this way in the finals, then players who have not even been to the finals cannot be considered for best player.

he wants to be MJhe wants to be magiche wants to be birdhe is made out to be an all time greatdid any of them ever fade in a finals like this?if he wants to be dominque wilkins, that's finea lot of people would love to be himthere's no shame in thatnot everyone can shine under finals pressure, and thus far he cannothe could turn that around, though he can never erase the choke he did this time around

I am not saying he is at any of those players' level. The all-time argument is a different one than the present day argument. Dirk was the best player in this series and these playoffs. Lebron #2 for the playoffs and probably 3-5 for the finals, despite the poor 4ths. But overall, he is still the best player in the league and will be for several more years most likely.

this is the bar he setbeing the 3rd-5th player in the finals is not the lebron being marketed, not the lebron being hyped, not the lebron he thinks he isi am not saying he's not a hell of a player, but he has an image of greatness that as of yet is more bark than biteif we are choosing sides for the finals next year how many would make him their top choice?i wouldn't. I choose wade over him in a heartbeat

 

[MarshallPlan]

if Erik Spoelstra was coaching Dallas, and Rick Carlisle was coaching Miami, the Heat would have won. True or false?

Absolutely true. Spoelstra way over his head coaching this group of guys.

 

[Mario Kart]

I will consider LeBron one of the best the game has ever seen when:

- he stops taking three steps when driving through the lane.

- he develops a mid range jump shot.

- he develops a post game of some kind.

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

was 4 years ago. 2007 LeBron would be ashamed of 2011 LeBron.

 

[TobiasFunke]

its like porn, you know it when you see it

People making this analogy here, or really anywhere, should probably know that this argument is usually considered to hsve been an intellectual cop-out. So, maybe not the best line of reasoning to take.

don't much care

some things cannot be defined accurately

no one expected that rookie to win the indsy 500, so did he choke by coming in second?

well when you have nothing but track and a big lead on the last turn and you turn right into the wall nstead of left into the winners circle you choked

lebron looked great in the playoffs till the finals, where he did not look average, he looked poor when the games matered most

sorry, that's the opposite of clutch by any definition

Looking great in three of four playoff series is the opposite of clutch?

Here's the reason me and some others are pushing on this: I personally think people are just changing their definition of what it means to be clutch and also suffering from "recency bias." LeBron wasn't very good in The Finals, at all. No question about that. But he was amazing in virtually every game of the playoffs until that point, and he was pretty freaking good in Game 1 of the Finals and not bad in Game 2 of the Finals either. And he's almost always been incredible in the playoffs in years past.

So if someone asked you if LeBron was clutch a week ago, I assume you would have said "yes" based on what I just said. And now he's magically not, because of one terrible game and two mediocre ones?

A related question- if LeBron is a choker, what the heck is Derrick Rose? Biggest series of both of their lives, and LeBron absolutely destroyed him. Held him to an almost comically low shooting percentage, and kept him to single-digit assists every game despite the fact that he played around 40 minutes per. Turned it over a ton, averaged only 1.0 steals per, had weak rebounding numbers even for a PG. And I don't remember him making a single big shot in that series. Whatever LeBron is, Rose has to be the same but worse. After all, Rose had a team with a better regular season record and home court and couldn't even give them the opportunity that the Heat failed to seize in the Finals? Why are we giving him a pass? Because we like him and we hate LeBron, end of story.

The point of course isn't that Rose isn't clutch clutch and is a giant choker and a fraud. The point is that #### happens. Missed shots happen, bad games happen, bad series happen. The guy was not at his best, or even close, for four games straight, and was downright terrible in Game 4. It happens.

 

[tommyGunZ]

if we are choosing sides for the finals next year how many would make him their top choice?i wouldn't. I choose wade over him in a heartbeat

Would LeBron even go in the top 5?WadeDirkKobe----Dwight?Durant?CP3?

 

[tommyGunZ]

The point of course isn't that Rose isn't clutch clutch and is a giant choker and a fraud. The point is that #### happens. Missed shots happen, bad games happen, bad series happen. The guy was not at his best, or even close, for four games straight, and was downright terrible in Game 4. It happens.

I agree 100%. What should NEVER happen is that the best player in the world stands around the perimeter looking scared to take a ####### shot. You can continuing arguing that swinging the ball to Chalmers and Dinosaur Howard is the right play, but you're on the fringe with that analysis. At some point, the best player gets the ball and tells everyone else to get the #### out of his way, whether it's the playground, a high school playoff game, or the NBA Finals. LeBron doesn't do that. And I have no idea why.

 

[Todem]

its like porn, you know it when you see it

People making this analogy here, or really anywhere, should probably know that this argument is usually considered to hsve been an intellectual cop-out. So, maybe not the best line of reasoning to take.

don't much care

some things cannot be defined accurately

no one expected that rookie to win the indsy 500, so did he choke by coming in second?

well when you have nothing but track and a big lead on the last turn and you turn right into the wall nstead of left into the winners circle you choked

lebron looked great in the playoffs till the finals, where he did not look average, he looked poor when the games matered most

sorry, that's the opposite of clutch by any definition

Looking great in three of four playoff series is the opposite of clutch?

Here's the reason me and some others are pushing on this: I personally think people are just changing their definition of what it means to be clutch and also suffering from "recency bias." LeBron wasn't very good in The Finals, at all. No question about that. But he was amazing in virtually every game of the playoffs until that point, and he was pretty freaking good in Game 1 of the Finals and not bad in Game 2 of the Finals either. And he's almost always been incredible in the playoffs in years past.

So if someone asked you if LeBron was clutch a week ago, I assume you would have said "yes" based on what I just said. And now he's magically not, because of one terrible game and two mediocre ones?

A related question- if LeBron is a choker, what the heck is Derrick Rose? Biggest series of both of their lives, and LeBron absolutely destroyed him. Held him to an almost comically low shooting percentage, and kept him to single-digit assists every game despite the fact that he played around 40 minutes per. Turned it over a ton, averaged only 1.0 steals per, had weak rebounding numbers even for a PG. And I don't remember him making a single big shot in that series. Whatever LeBron is, Rose has to be the same but worse. After all, Rose had a team with a better regular season record and home court and couldn't even give them the opportunity that the Heat failed to seize in the Finals? Why are we giving him a pass? Because we like him and we hate LeBron, end of story.

The point of course isn't that Rose isn't clutch clutch and is a giant choker and a fraud. The point is that #### happens. Missed shots happen, bad games happen, bad series happen. The guy was not at his best, or even close, for four games straight, and was downright terrible in Game 4. It happens.

This should end the discussion. Great post.

 

[B-Deep]

its like porn, you know it when you see it

People making this analogy here, or really anywhere, should probably know that this argument is usually considered to hsve been an intellectual cop-out. So, maybe not the best line of reasoning to take.

don't much care

some things cannot be defined accurately

no one expected that rookie to win the indsy 500, so did he choke by coming in second?

well when you have nothing but track and a big lead on the last turn and you turn right into the wall nstead of left into the winners circle you choked

lebron looked great in the playoffs till the finals, where he did not look average, he looked poor when the games matered most

sorry, that's the opposite of clutch by any definition

Looking great in three of four playoff series is the opposite of clutch?

Here's the reason me and some others are pushing on this: I personally think people are just changing their definition of what it means to be clutch and also suffering from "recency bias." LeBron wasn't very good in The Finals, at all. No question about that. But he was amazing in virtually every game of the playoffs until that point, and he was pretty freaking good in Game 1 of the Finals and not bad in Game 2 of the Finals either. And he's almost always been incredible in the playoffs in years past.

So if someone asked you if LeBron was clutch a week ago, I assume you would have said "yes" based on what I just said. And now he's magically not, because of one terrible game and two mediocre ones?

A related question- if LeBron is a choker, what the heck is Derrick Rose? Biggest series of both of their lives, and LeBron absolutely destroyed him. Held him to an almost comically low shooting percentage, and kept him to single-digit assists every game despite the fact that he played around 40 minutes per. Turned it over a ton, averaged only 1.0 steals per, had weak rebounding numbers even for a PG. And I don't remember him making a single big shot in that series. Whatever LeBron is, Rose has to be the same but worse. After all, Rose had a team with a better regular season record and home court and couldn't even give them the opportunity that the Heat failed to seize in the Finals? Why are we giving him a pass? Because we like him and we hate LeBron, end of story.

The point of course isn't that Rose isn't clutch clutch and is a giant choker and a fraud. The point is that #### happens. Missed shots happen, bad games happen, bad series happen. The guy was not at his best, or even close, for four games straight, and was downright terrible in Game 4. It happens.

again you try and reframe the question i was asking.do you think his finals perfomance was clutch?

that was what i asked

i am not giving anyone(Rose) a pass, you can obfuscate all you want

was lebron's finals performance clutch? was it disappointing? do the heat expect more from him?

if he wants people to be happy if he plays well up to the finals and then fades, he should start conducting himself as such. The microscope he is seen under is one of his own creating. He sets the bar for himself.That should be applauded, but when you talk big and set the bar big you had better back it up, not go into hiding.

there's still plenty of time for him to do it, but this year he choked in the finals. Trying to argue otherwise is silly

 

[Abraham]

Rose is still very young with less experience in big games. James has been there and should by now have acclimated to the pressure of playoff basketball.