*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (10 Viewers)

[Kev4029]

Generally they have some combination of the following in addition to scoring: younger, ability to make other betters, play defense, or are legit big men. Though at this point in time Dirk/Melo is a toss up for me.

The ability to make other better.... this is a term that people love to use because its pretty much to argue either way. Melo won a national championship, a gold medal and has made the playoff in every year of his professional career... doesn't seem like hes holding himself or anybody else down.Here is my comments on each of the players, other than Wade, Lebron, Howard, Durant and Paul.Rose - He plays point guard but has taken the most shots of ANY player in the entire NBA (way to make everyone around you better)... I don't think that has once in the history of the NBA been a formula for success. He is still a sub par defenderWilliams - I could buy an argument for Williams but the he is the same age as Melo and has plateaued for the last 4 years whereas Melo has been slowly improving.Westbrook - I could also buy an argument for Westbrook but his game will not age well at all (Can't shoot and relies heavily on his ability to drive), so the younger aspect won't make a huge difference. Plus as it has really seemed that PGs grow on trees lately (All star level PG talents right now - Paul, Williams, Rondo, Wall, Westbrook, Nash, Rose, Parker, Harris, Curry, Wall, Brooks, Billups, Kidd - thats 14)Rondo - He is only a year an a half younger than Melo and he has completely given up trying to score. I don't like my franchise players to score 10 ppg while having a .500 TS because he can't shoot, doesn't get fouled and is possibility the worst PG free throw shooter ever. He would be kind of like calling Ben Wallace a franchise player in the early 00s.Wall - Hes sure looked good in his brief time, but its so hard to tell what he is going to be after only 10 games. I would take the sure thing in Melo, but a few years down the road it is fairly likely you are right.Griffin - Hes also looked very good in his short career, but I wouldn't call him much of a defender and its also hard to argue that hes made his 3-15 Clippers teammates better. If you were to make a list of the 5 most dissapointing teams so far in the NBA, they would surely be in it. Like Wall, there is a fair possibility that he will be better than Melo in a few years, and I might take him above anybody on this list.Evans - Hes younger, doesn't score as well, can't shoot, doesn't defend... I'm not sure what the argument for Evans over Melo could possibly be.Gasol - If he was 3 or 4 years younger I would buy it, but I'm not sure at 30. Hell of a player in 2010 though.Kobe - I'm not going to get into a Kobe argument, so my only answer is I disagreeDirk - I like Dirk, but he is 6 years older and has never done anything exceptionally well other than score.... but he is probably the best stretch 4 in the history of the NBA.

 

[Kev4029]

Well-rounded =/= Franchise player. Again he's very good. There's no disputing that, but that doesn't make him a championship/franchise player. Like I've said before he's closer in impact to Joe Johnson then to LBJ, Wade, Paul, and D Will.I'd also gladly take the not so well-rounded game of Steve Nash or Rondo over Melo.

Well rounded doesn't equal franchise player, but when you score like Melo does, plus you rebound at an elite level, pass very well for your position, and play decent defense you are. There aren't many players that don't have a glaring weakness and do so many things so well.What could Melo do better in your opinion to make him a franchise player?

 

[Kev4029]

The Lakers had one of the best players in the league handed to them. Without Gasol they wouldn't have won squat the past three years.

And in acquiring Pau Gasol they gave up young talent, picks and cap flexibility

They gave up cap flexibility and a Marc Gasol, who NOBODY had any idea would be much more than a decent NBA rotation player. Draft picks when you are trading for an All-Pro talent to a team with and All-Time talent are worthless and everybody in that situation knew it. The best asset that the Grizz got in that trade at the time was Crittenton, in retrospect that isn't the case, but at the time it looked like cap filler (Kwame), a decent young prospect who was having growing pains (Crittenton), a decent 4th-maybe 3rd big man prospect (Gasol) and two very late first round picks. What they ended up trading was an All NBA talent for worthless players and Marc Gasol who is a good, but not great starting center. It was still a heist of epic proportions and its not like the Lakers had tons of stockpiled assets, the Grizzlies were just ######ed.

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

The Lakers had one of the best players in the league handed to them. Without Gasol they wouldn't have won squat the past three years.

And in acquiring Pau Gasol they gave up young talent, picks and cap flexibility

They gave up cap flexibility and a Marc Gasol, who NOBODY had any idea would be much more than a decent NBA rotation player. Draft picks when you are trading for an All-Pro talent to a team with and All-Time talent are worthless and everybody in that situation knew it. The best asset that the Grizz got in that trade at the time was Crittenton, in retrospect that isn't the case, but at the time it looked like cap filler (Kwame), a decent young prospect who was having growing pains (Crittenton), a decent 4th-maybe 3rd big man prospect (Gasol) and two very late first round picks. What they ended up trading was an All NBA talent for worthless players and Marc Gasol who is a good, but not great starting center. It was still a heist of epic proportions and its not like the Lakers had tons of stockpiled assets, the Grizzlies were just ######ed.

I like how instead of reevaluating their initial thoughts on the trade everyone just assumes Marc Gasol being included and his subsequent development is just some sort of freak accident. It does bring up another point though. A lot of championship teams hit it big on late 1st and 2nd round picks that could have been acquired for any owner financially willing to pay for them.Also Pau wasn't an all league talent on the Grizzlies. He had a weaker standing in the league then what Carmelo Anthony has now.

 

[Kev4029]

The Lakers had one of the best players in the league handed to them. Without Gasol they wouldn't have won squat the past three years.

And in acquiring Pau Gasol they gave up young talent, picks and cap flexibility

They gave up cap flexibility and a Marc Gasol, who NOBODY had any idea would be much more than a decent NBA rotation player. Draft picks when you are trading for an All-Pro talent to a team with and All-Time talent are worthless and everybody in that situation knew it. The best asset that the Grizz got in that trade at the time was Crittenton, in retrospect that isn't the case, but at the time it looked like cap filler (Kwame), a decent young prospect who was having growing pains (Crittenton), a decent 4th-maybe 3rd big man prospect (Gasol) and two very late first round picks. What they ended up trading was an All NBA talent for worthless players and Marc Gasol who is a good, but not great starting center.It was still a heist of epic proportions and its not like the Lakers had tons of stockpiled assets, the Grizzlies were just ######ed.

I like how instead of reevaluating their initial thoughts on the trade everyone just assumes Marc Gasol being included and his subsequent development is just some sort of freak accident. It does bring up another point though. A lot of championship teams hit it big on late 1st and 2nd round picks that could have been acquired for any owner financially willing to pay for them.

Here is Marc Stein not even mentioning Marc in his evaluation of the trade. Here is the owner of the Grizz making no mention of Marc as he explains why they made the trade. Marc was much more of a throw in than he was some substantial piece to the trade. He clearly is much better than people thought, but nobody thought he was any good.

Weaker standing in the league than Melo now? What does that mean? Melo is pretty much universally thought of as a top 10 player. Gasol is the same player he was 5 years ago, except now he has two championships and he plays in LA. Gasol hasn't really improved since came into the league.

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

The Lakers had one of the best players in the league handed to them. Without Gasol they wouldn't have won squat the past three years.

And in acquiring Pau Gasol they gave up young talent, picks and cap flexibility

They gave up cap flexibility and a Marc Gasol, who NOBODY had any idea would be much more than a decent NBA rotation player. Draft picks when you are trading for an All-Pro talent to a team with and All-Time talent are worthless and everybody in that situation knew it. The best asset that the Grizz got in that trade at the time was Crittenton, in retrospect that isn't the case, but at the time it looked like cap filler (Kwame), a decent young prospect who was having growing pains (Crittenton), a decent 4th-maybe 3rd big man prospect (Gasol) and two very late first round picks. What they ended up trading was an All NBA talent for worthless players and Marc Gasol who is a good, but not great starting center.It was still a heist of epic proportions and its not like the Lakers had tons of stockpiled assets, the Grizzlies were just ######ed.

I like how instead of reevaluating their initial thoughts on the trade everyone just assumes Marc Gasol being included and his subsequent development is just some sort of freak accident. It does bring up another point though. A lot of championship teams hit it big on late 1st and 2nd round picks that could have been acquired for any owner financially willing to pay for them.

Here is Marc Stein not even mentioning Marc in his evaluation of the trade. Here is the owner of the Grizz making no mention of Marc as he explains why they made the trade. Marc was much more of a throw in than he was some substantial piece to the trade. He clearly is much better than people thought, but nobody thought he was any good.

"Well, we've been trolling these waters for a while, we've dealt with a number of teams and I didn't see that it would get any better than this," Wallace told ESPN.com Friday night in a telephone interview. "We got what was pretty much the biggest expiring contract out there [Kwame Brown], a player we like in Javaris Crittendon, two No. 1 picks and Pau Gasol's brother [Marc Gasol], who we think would be a high No. 1 pick if he came out this year instead of last year.

 

[timschochet]

Lakers going through a bad spell right now. They seem bored with playing defense. The regular season's long, and they know they are the best team, and can turn it on any time. Still, I hate to see this. I think Kobe does too. But some of the other guys just don't give a #### about some of the games at this point.

 

[No. 16]

The Lakers had one of the best players in the league handed to them. Without Gasol they wouldn't have won squat the past three years.

And in acquiring Pau Gasol they gave up young talent, picks and cap flexibility

Which they got in the first place by trading away SHAQ. See how this works.

 

[Kev4029]

"Well, we've been trolling these waters for a while, we've dealt with a number of teams and I didn't see that it would get any better than this," Wallace told ESPN.com Friday night in a telephone interview. "We got what was pretty much the biggest expiring contract out there [Kwame Brown], a player we like in Javaris Crittendon, two No. 1 picks and Pau Gasol's brother [Marc Gasol], who we think would be a high No. 1 pick if he came out this year instead of last year.

Pshhhhh, I'll continue to pretend I didn't see that. I like how things were in my head before your reading had to go and ruin it all.Touche.

 

[No. 16]

Well-rounded =/= Franchise player.

Again he's very good. There's no disputing that, but that doesn't make him a championship/franchise player. Like I've said before he's closer in impact to Joe Johnson then to LBJ, Wade, Paul, and D Will.

I'd also gladly take the not so well-rounded game of Steve Nash or Rondo over Melo.

Well rounded doesn't equal franchise player, but when you score like Melo does, plus you rebound at an elite level, pass very well for your position, and play decent defense you are. There aren't many players that don't have a glaring weakness and do so many things so well.What could Melo do better in your opinion to make him a franchise player?

Did you not read my previous post....Melo scores very well but not as well as other elite players.

Melo does rebound very well (his only other contribution aside from scoring).

He does not pass very well for his position and advanced stats show this (he's merely average):

- AR this year = 12.28, League average for SF is 12.94 (via HoopData)

- Like I posted earlier he has a high APG, because he is the 6th highest used player since he entered the league. If you have the ball as much as Melo, you'll eventually get 3 apg.

Melo is a decent defender.

IMO, to be a franchise player you have to be able to impact the game in at least TWO of the following ways OTHER than scoring by volume: defend, rebound, pass, or score with efficiency.

Of these listed Melo's only other game changing attribute is his ability to rebound the ball. His defense will keep him from getting abused, but it won't make game changing plays. Pass the ball? Yah right, he's a bigger ball hog than Iverson and Kobe. Score with efficiency? Like I pointed out earlier of the players since 2003 to avg 20+ ppg, he ranks 16/20 based on TS%. Of the 41 NBA players (excluding Blake Griffin) in the 3 point ERA to average 20+ ppg he ranks 32/41 based on TS%.

If he wanted to become a franchise player he could score more efficiently, become an elite defensive player, or improve his shot selection by passing more, which in turn should improve his scoring efficiency.

 

[SoBeDad]

Lakers going through a bad spell right now. They seem bored with playing defense. The regular season's long, and they know they are the best team, and can turn it on any time. Still, I hate to see this. I think Kobe does too. But some of the other guys just don't give a #### about some of the games at this point.

I didn't see the game, but 9-25 shooting by Kobe isn't exactly lighting it up. Maybe he's carrying too much of the load, like Lebron and Wade.

 

[Britney Spears]

Also Pau wasn't an all league talent on the Grizzlies.

Oof.

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

Also Pau wasn't an all league talent on the Grizzlies.

Oof.

How many all NBA awards did he win in Memphis?

 

[Kev4029]

Well-rounded =/= Franchise player.

Again he's very good. There's no disputing that, but that doesn't make him a championship/franchise player. Like I've said before he's closer in impact to Joe Johnson then to LBJ, Wade, Paul, and D Will.

I'd also gladly take the not so well-rounded game of Steve Nash or Rondo over Melo.

Well rounded doesn't equal franchise player, but when you score like Melo does, plus you rebound at an elite level, pass very well for your position, and play decent defense you are. There aren't many players that don't have a glaring weakness and do so many things so well.What could Melo do better in your opinion to make him a franchise player?

Did you not read my previous post....Melo scores very well but not as well as other elite players.

Melo does rebound very well (his only other contribution aside from scoring).

He does not pass very well for his position and advanced stats show this (he's merely average):

- AR this year = 12.28, League average for SF is 12.94 (via HoopData)

- Like I posted earlier he has a high APG, because he is the 6th highest used player since he entered the league. If you have the ball as much as Melo, you'll eventually get 3 apg.

Melo is a decent defender.

IMO, to be a franchise player you have to be able to impact the game in at least TWO of the following ways OTHER than scoring by volume: defend, rebound, pass, or score with efficiency.

Of these listed Melo's only other game changing attribute is his ability to rebound the ball. His defense will keep him from getting abused, but it won't make game changing plays. Pass the ball? Yah right, he's a bigger ball hog than Iverson and Kobe. Score with efficiency? Like I pointed out earlier of the players since 2003 to avg 20+ ppg, he ranks 16/20 based on TS%. Of the 41 NBA players (excluding Blake Griffin) in the 3 point ERA to average 20+ ppg he ranks 32/41 based on TS%.

If he wanted to become a franchise player he could score more efficiently, become an elite defensive player, or improve his shot selection by passing more, which in turn should improve his scoring efficiency.

Rose - Scores lots, verage rebounder, poor passer, poor defender, doesn't score efficiently...1/5Williams - good scorer better than average assist rate, slightly better than average rebound rate, fairly efficient scorer, good defender. Not really sure what to give him for a score out of 5, he does everything well but nothing great... 3/5?

Westbrook - good scorer, excellent rebounder, excellent rebounder, as efficient as Melo, average passer 3/5

Rondo - Poor scorer Great passer, rebounder and defender, horribly inefficient scorer. his lack of any scoring gets a -1 from me for being completely inept 2/5

Wall - Scores, slightly better than average passer, average rebounder, not efficient, good defender 2/5

Griffin - Scores, rebounds well, not efficient, better than average passer, not a good defender 2/5

Evans - Only scoring 17 ppg on 17 shots, better than average passer, average rebounder, horribly inefficient, poor defender 0/5

Gasol - Scores, good passer, good not great efficiency, better than average rebounder, mediocre defender.... I'll give him 2.5/5

Kobe - Scores, average efficiency, good not great rebounder, average passer, good (but overrated defender)... I'll give him 2.5/5

Dirk - Scores, efficient, poor rebounder, bad passer, mediocre defender....2/5

Melo - Scores, rebounds well, average defender, average passer, above average efficency... 2/5

Wade - Scores, not efficient, rebounds well, average passer, good defender... 3/5

Lebron - Scores, above average efficency, great passer, average rebounder, good defender.... 3/5

Durant - scores, good not great rebounder, bad passer, above average efficiency, above average defender.... 1/5

Howard - Scores, good not great efficiency, bad passer, great rebounder, great defender.... 3/5

Paul - only scoring 16 ppg, efficient, great rebounder, great passer, great defender.... 4/5

So here are our franchise.... Williams, Westbrook, Wade, Lebron, Howard and Paul. The only guy who fit more than 3 of your criteria was Chris Paul.

Here is my point with Melo and the whole Melo to NJ thing....

He is an excellent scorer and rebounder and does everything else at an acceptable level for a "franchise player." Finding a SG or SF to come close to replicating what he does is very hard to do. A big man who defends and rebounds is fairly easy to find, a guy who can score like Melo is extremely rare.

All this Favors love is hilarious, just because I feel like bringing up our build a franchise draft again (plus I stole Favors), I'll leave you with this...

I picked Favors with the 4th pick in the 5th round. The collective minds of the FFA thought guys like Speights, Ryan Anderson, Thabeet, Ariza, Dalembert, Al Harrington were better long term players (123 players overall) than Derrick Favors, now many of you same guys are saying that Favors is too much to give up for Melo who was chosen 5.

 

[biggamer3]

As a Knicks fan, Raymond Felton was by far the steal of the offseason. I believe he got like 8-9 mil a year for 2 years. Compared to the contracts Outlaw, Farmar, Reddick, Korver got he is beyond a bargain.

He has gotten better and better the more he plays with Amare. Love the Knicks rotation of Amare plus the 4 small guys, since it frees up room for Amare to own the entire paint and all the guys like Chandler, Fields and Felton are above average rebounders for their positions.

Amare + Felton was a huge win afterall for the Knicks.

 

[Kev4029]

Also Pau wasn't an all league talent on the Grizzlies.

Oof.

How many all NBA awards did he win in Memphis?

I didn't say he was winning all NBA awards, I said he was an All NBA talent. He is nearly the exact same player today as he was when he was 21 in Memphis. He deserved a couple all nba teams in his years in Memphis.

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

Also Pau wasn't an all league talent on the Grizzlies.

Oof.

How many all NBA awards did he win in Memphis?

I didn't say he was winning all NBA awards, I said he was an All NBA talent. He is nearly the exact same player today as he was when he was 21 in Memphis. He deserved a couple all nba teams in his years in Memphis.

Maybe people should give specific meanings to these made up titles. What does all nba talent mean specifically? Pau Gasol isn't even the same player today that he was his first day with the Lakers. He's a smarter, tougher and more consistent defender and a better rebounder right now.

 

[Smarge]

Well-rounded =/= Franchise player.

Again he's very good. There's no disputing that, but that doesn't make him a championship/franchise player. Like I've said before he's closer in impact to Joe Johnson then to LBJ, Wade, Paul, and D Will.

I'd also gladly take the not so well-rounded game of Steve Nash or Rondo over Melo.

Well rounded doesn't equal franchise player, but when you score like Melo does, plus you rebound at an elite level, pass very well for your position, and play decent defense you are. There aren't many players that don't have a glaring weakness and do so many things so well.What could Melo do better in your opinion to make him a franchise player?

Did you not read my previous post....Melo scores very well but not as well as other elite players.

Melo does rebound very well (his only other contribution aside from scoring).

He does not pass very well for his position and advanced stats show this (he's merely average):

- AR this year = 12.28, League average for SF is 12.94 (via HoopData)

- Like I posted earlier he has a high APG, because he is the 6th highest used player since he entered the league. If you have the ball as much as Melo, you'll eventually get 3 apg.

Melo is a decent defender.

IMO, to be a franchise player you have to be able to impact the game in at least TWO of the following ways OTHER than scoring by volume: defend, rebound, pass, or score with efficiency.

Of these listed Melo's only other game changing attribute is his ability to rebound the ball. His defense will keep him from getting abused, but it won't make game changing plays. Pass the ball? Yah right, he's a bigger ball hog than Iverson and Kobe. Score with efficiency? Like I pointed out earlier of the players since 2003 to avg 20+ ppg, he ranks 16/20 based on TS%. Of the 41 NBA players (excluding Blake Griffin) in the 3 point ERA to average 20+ ppg he ranks 32/41 based on TS%.

If he wanted to become a franchise player he could score more efficiently, become an elite defensive player, or improve his shot selection by passing more, which in turn should improve his scoring efficiency.

Rose - Scores lots, verage rebounder, poor passer, poor defender, doesn't score efficiently...1/5

There's not one GM in the league that would choose Melo over Rose at this point when building a team. Calling him a poor passer is ridiculous. He's not Nash or Kidd, but his passing has improved significantly since his rookie season, and with Boozer back he'll finally have someone to be a threat in the post. He's at 8+ assists/game, and he has to work hard for every assist considering he's feeding the likes of Gibson, Bogans, Noah and a fairly streaky Deng. Korver is really the only guy that allows his an easy assist. In addition, his defense has improved to the point of being average, and he's shown the willingness to work and get better on that end as well.

 

[the moops]

There's not one GM in the league that would choose Melo over Rose at this point when building a team.

I am quite sure there are at least a few who would do so.Carmelo Anthony is only 26 years old. His previous 2 years, and this year, have been better than Rose's.Yes, Derrick Rose has the chance of being a better ball player than Carmelo. He isn't there yet though, and he may never get there.

 

[No. 16]

Well-rounded =/= Franchise player.

Again he's very good. There's no disputing that, but that doesn't make him a championship/franchise player. Like I've said before he's closer in impact to Joe Johnson then to LBJ, Wade, Paul, and D Will.

I'd also gladly take the not so well-rounded game of Steve Nash or Rondo over Melo.

Well rounded doesn't equal franchise player, but when you score like Melo does, plus you rebound at an elite level, pass very well for your position, and play decent defense you are. There aren't many players that don't have a glaring weakness and do so many things so well.What could Melo do better in your opinion to make him a franchise player?

Did you not read my previous post....Melo scores very well but not as well as other elite players.

Melo does rebound very well (his only other contribution aside from scoring).

He does not pass very well for his position and advanced stats show this (he's merely average):

- AR this year = 12.28, League average for SF is 12.94 (via HoopData)

- Like I posted earlier he has a high APG, because he is the 6th highest used player since he entered the league. If you have the ball as much as Melo, you'll eventually get 3 apg.

Melo is a decent defender.

IMO, to be a franchise player you have to be able to impact the game in at least TWO of the following ways OTHER than scoring by volume: defend, rebound, pass, or score with efficiency.

Of these listed Melo's only other game changing attribute is his ability to rebound the ball. His defense will keep him from getting abused, but it won't make game changing plays. Pass the ball? Yah right, he's a bigger ball hog than Iverson and Kobe. Score with efficiency? Like I pointed out earlier of the players since 2003 to avg 20+ ppg, he ranks 16/20 based on TS%. Of the 41 NBA players (excluding Blake Griffin) in the 3 point ERA to average 20+ ppg he ranks 32/41 based on TS%.

If he wanted to become a franchise player he could score more efficiently, become an elite defensive player, or improve his shot selection by passing more, which in turn should improve his scoring efficiency.

Rose - Scores lots, verage rebounder, poor passer, poor defender, doesn't score efficiently...1/5Williams - good scorer better than average assist rate, slightly better than average rebound rate, fairly efficient scorer, good defender. Not really sure what to give him for a score out of 5, he does everything well but nothing great... 3/5?

Westbrook - good scorer, excellent rebounder, excellent rebounder, as efficient as Melo, average passer 3/5

Rondo - Poor scorer Great passer, rebounder and defender, horribly inefficient scorer. his lack of any scoring gets a -1 from me for being completely inept 2/5

Wall - Scores, slightly better than average passer, average rebounder, not efficient, good defender 2/5

Griffin - Scores, rebounds well, not efficient, better than average passer, not a good defender 2/5

Evans - Only scoring 17 ppg on 17 shots, better than average passer, average rebounder, horribly inefficient, poor defender 0/5

Gasol - Scores, good passer, good not great efficiency, better than average rebounder, mediocre defender.... I'll give him 2.5/5

Kobe - Scores, average efficiency, good not great rebounder, average passer, good (but overrated defender)... I'll give him 2.5/5

Dirk - Scores, efficient, poor rebounder, bad passer, mediocre defender....2/5

Melo - Scores, rebounds well, average defender, average passer, above average efficency... 2/5

Wade - Scores, not efficient, rebounds well, average passer, good defender... 3/5

Lebron - Scores, above average efficency, great passer, average rebounder, good defender.... 3/5

Durant - scores, good not great rebounder, bad passer, above average efficiency, above average defender.... 1/5

Howard - Scores, good not great efficiency, bad passer, great rebounder, great defender.... 3/5

Paul - only scoring 16 ppg, efficient, great rebounder, great passer, great defender.... 4/5

So here are our franchise.... Williams, Westbrook, Wade, Lebron, Howard and Paul. The only guy who fit more than 3 of your criteria was Chris Paul.

Here is my point with Melo and the whole Melo to NJ thing....

He is an excellent scorer and rebounder and does everything else at an acceptable level for a "franchise player." Finding a SG or SF to come close to replicating what he does is very hard to do. A big man who defends and rebounds is fairly easy to find, a guy who can score like Melo is extremely rare.

All this Favors love is hilarious, just because I feel like bringing up our build a franchise draft again (plus I stole Favors), I'll leave you with this...

I picked Favors with the 4th pick in the 5th round. The collective minds of the FFA thought guys like Speights, Ryan Anderson, Thabeet, Ariza, Dalembert, Al Harrington were better long term players (123 players overall) than Derrick Favors, now many of you same guys are saying that Favors is too much to give up for Melo who was chosen 5.

Your ratings are pretty close to what I consider franchise players. - Williams, Westbrook, Wade, LBJ, Howard, Paul, Rondo (who is a 3, but you subtracted a point) are locks.

- Definitely need to add Kobe and Gasol on there.

- Durant is similar to Melo, but what makes him a franchise player is ELITE efficiency and he is an above average defender. Also, he's only 22 years old!

I'd still take Rose/Wall/Griffin over Melo because they are younger and have already shown to game changing abilities.

Also regarding the franchise draft that's not the best indicator of where players rank because of the ambiguity in the goals of the draft. Some teams build for the future, some teams build for the present. Also, others like myself watch very few college games, so I passed on drafting college players because of that.

Also it is not Melo for Favors straight up.

It's....

Melo and a MAX contract

for

Favors (could be a stud, cheap deal for 4 years), future 1st rounders, AND potentially Devin Harris. That's a lot for a non-franchise player.

Melo for Harris + Favors or 1st rounders and I'll give NJ some slack, but to give up 3 chances at acquiring a franchise player (Favors, 2 - 1st rounders) for Melo seems a bit much.

 

[No. 16]

Also Pau wasn't an all league talent on the Grizzlies.

Oof.

How many all NBA awards did he win in Memphis?

I didn't say he was winning all NBA awards, I said he was an All NBA talent. He is nearly the exact same player today as he was when he was 21 in Memphis. He deserved a couple all nba teams in his years in Memphis.

He had stiff comp with KG and TD in their primes. Kev is right. Gasol is pretty much the same player since he took the league by storm his rookie year. He was just always overlooked playing on a crappy team and in the shadow of KG and Duncan.

 

[JMon348]

Kev, you do understand your opinion on just about everything you say is in the minority with almost everyone, right?

I don't know if you are doing sthick, but some of your opinions are crazy.

Kobe not a franchise player, Pau hasn't improved for 10 years, Aaron Brooks not a starting PG, etc.

 

[Kev4029]

Kev, you do understand your opinion on just about everything you say is in the minority with almost everyone, right?I don't know if you are doing sthick, but some of your opinions are crazy.Kobe not a franchise player, Pau hasn't improved for 10 years, Aaron Brooks not a starting PG, etc.

I do understand my opinions differ, and I do shtick it up a little sometimes to create some discussion. Its fun for me that way.I never said Kobe isn't a franchise player, he most certainly is, I was using No. 16's criteria for franchise players.Pau has improved, but he is essentially the same player he was when he was a rookie. His defense has improved and his rebounding has improved, but not by leaps and bounds. He went from a good to very good rebounder and went from being a mediocre defender to maybe slightly above average. Nothing to clarify with Brooks, I've really said what I meant with that guy.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Kev, you do understand your opinion on just about everything you say is in the minority with almost everyone, right?I don't know if you are doing sthick, but some of your opinions are crazy.Kobe not a franchise player, Pau hasn't improved for 10 years, Aaron Brooks not a starting PG, etc.

I'm with Kev, No. 16 and pretty much the rest of the world on Gasol. He was a phenomenal player in Memphis, and he was traded away for pennies on the dollar for reasons that have never been made clear.

 

[Kev4029]

Well-rounded =/= Franchise player.

Again he's very good. There's no disputing that, but that doesn't make him a championship/franchise player. Like I've said before he's closer in impact to Joe Johnson then to LBJ, Wade, Paul, and D Will.

I'd also gladly take the not so well-rounded game of Steve Nash or Rondo over Melo.

Well rounded doesn't equal franchise player, but when you score like Melo does, plus you rebound at an elite level, pass very well for your position, and play decent defense you are. There aren't many players that don't have a glaring weakness and do so many things so well.What could Melo do better in your opinion to make him a franchise player?

Did you not read my previous post....Melo scores very well but not as well as other elite players.

Melo does rebound very well (his only other contribution aside from scoring).

He does not pass very well for his position and advanced stats show this (he's merely average):

- AR this year = 12.28, League average for SF is 12.94 (via HoopData)

- Like I posted earlier he has a high APG, because he is the 6th highest used player since he entered the league. If you have the ball as much as Melo, you'll eventually get 3 apg.

Melo is a decent defender.

IMO, to be a franchise player you have to be able to impact the game in at least TWO of the following ways OTHER than scoring by volume: defend, rebound, pass, or score with efficiency.

Of these listed Melo's only other game changing attribute is his ability to rebound the ball. His defense will keep him from getting abused, but it won't make game changing plays. Pass the ball? Yah right, he's a bigger ball hog than Iverson and Kobe. Score with efficiency? Like I pointed out earlier of the players since 2003 to avg 20+ ppg, he ranks 16/20 based on TS%. Of the 41 NBA players (excluding Blake Griffin) in the 3 point ERA to average 20+ ppg he ranks 32/41 based on TS%.

If he wanted to become a franchise player he could score more efficiently, become an elite defensive player, or improve his shot selection by passing more, which in turn should improve his scoring efficiency.

Rose - Scores lots, verage rebounder, poor passer, poor defender, doesn't score efficiently...1/5Williams - good scorer better than average assist rate, slightly better than average rebound rate, fairly efficient scorer, good defender. Not really sure what to give him for a score out of 5, he does everything well but nothing great... 3/5?

Westbrook - good scorer, excellent rebounder, excellent rebounder, as efficient as Melo, average passer 3/5

Rondo - Poor scorer Great passer, rebounder and defender, horribly inefficient scorer. his lack of any scoring gets a -1 from me for being completely inept 2/5

Wall - Scores, slightly better than average passer, average rebounder, not efficient, good defender 2/5

Griffin - Scores, rebounds well, not efficient, better than average passer, not a good defender 2/5

Evans - Only scoring 17 ppg on 17 shots, better than average passer, average rebounder, horribly inefficient, poor defender 0/5

Gasol - Scores, good passer, good not great efficiency, better than average rebounder, mediocre defender.... I'll give him 2.5/5

Kobe - Scores, average efficiency, good not great rebounder, average passer, good (but overrated defender)... I'll give him 2.5/5

Dirk - Scores, efficient, poor rebounder, bad passer, mediocre defender....2/5

Melo - Scores, rebounds well, average defender, average passer, above average efficency... 2/5

Wade - Scores, not efficient, rebounds well, average passer, good defender... 3/5

Lebron - Scores, above average efficency, great passer, average rebounder, good defender.... 3/5

Durant - scores, good not great rebounder, bad passer, above average efficiency, above average defender.... 1/5

Howard - Scores, good not great efficiency, bad passer, great rebounder, great defender.... 3/5

Paul - only scoring 16 ppg, efficient, great rebounder, great passer, great defender.... 4/5

So here are our franchise.... Williams, Westbrook, Wade, Lebron, Howard and Paul. The only guy who fit more than 3 of your criteria was Chris Paul.

Here is my point with Melo and the whole Melo to NJ thing....

He is an excellent scorer and rebounder and does everything else at an acceptable level for a "franchise player." Finding a SG or SF to come close to replicating what he does is very hard to do. A big man who defends and rebounds is fairly easy to find, a guy who can score like Melo is extremely rare.

All this Favors love is hilarious, just because I feel like bringing up our build a franchise draft again (plus I stole Favors), I'll leave you with this...

I picked Favors with the 4th pick in the 5th round. The collective minds of the FFA thought guys like Speights, Ryan Anderson, Thabeet, Ariza, Dalembert, Al Harrington were better long term players (123 players overall) than Derrick Favors, now many of you same guys are saying that Favors is too much to give up for Melo who was chosen 5.

Your ratings are pretty close to what I consider franchise players. - Williams, Westbrook, Wade, LBJ, Howard, Paul, Rondo (who is a 3, but you subtracted a point) are locks.

- Definitely need to add Kobe and Gasol on there.

- Durant is similar to Melo, but what makes him a franchise player is ELITE efficiency and he is an above average defender. Also, he's only 22 years old!

I'd still take Rose/Wall/Griffin over Melo because they are younger and have already shown to game changing abilities.

Also regarding the franchise draft that's not the best indicator of where players rank because of the ambiguity in the goals of the draft. Some teams build for the future, some teams build for the present. Also, others like myself watch very few college games, so I passed on drafting college players because of that.

Also it is not Melo for Favors straight up.

It's....

Melo and a MAX contract

for

Favors (could be a stud, cheap deal for 4 years), future 1st rounders, AND potentially Devin Harris. That's a lot for a non-franchise player.

Melo for Harris + Favors or 1st rounders and I'll give NJ some slack, but to give up 3 chances at acquiring a franchise player (Favors, 2 - 1st rounders) for Melo seems a bit much.

About the franchise draft, I brought that up to pat myself on the back more than anything...I also doubt with the way Harris is playing that the Nets give him up, its much more likely to be the fat upset Murphy.

Being that there are something like 30 max contracts in the NBA and Melo's production is very unlikely to slip during his three year extension with a fair possibility of him improving over the next year or two, even if you are paying for the 14th best player in the NBA (which I greatly disagree with) thats not a bad deal. Melo brings a couple things to the table that are very nice to have. First, he has no significant injury history (unlike Paul, Kobe, Griffin, and Wade), he also has proven to be one of the best (possibly the best) closer in the NBA, and he is incredibly marketable.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Ed Davis making his debut tonight

 

[Kev4029]

Ed Davis making his debut tonight

Did he play at all this preseason or in summer league? I assume he did...How did he look?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Ed Davis making his debut tonight

Did he play at all this preseason or in summer league? I assume he did...How did he look?

I didn't catch any summer league and he was injured before the start of preseason. He just played two D league games where he had 20/10/1 with 6 blocks in 35 minutes total.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Stat of the day:

In 13 wins Bryant averages 18.8 FGA. In 4 loses, 26.5 FGA. Oof.

 

[Redwes25]

As a Knicks fan, Raymond Felton was by far the steal of the offseason. I believe he got like 8-9 mil a year for 2 years. Compared to the contracts Outlaw, Farmar, Reddick, Korver got he is beyond a bargain. He has gotten better and better the more he plays with Amare. Love the Knicks rotation of Amare plus the 4 small guys, since it frees up room for Amare to own the entire paint and all the guys like Chandler, Fields and Felton are above average rebounders for their positions.Amare + Felton was a huge win afterall for the Knicks.

I think Amare + Felton were the first really good free agency moves the Knicks have made. Each day they seem to get better together and we still have room for another max player. Also, I just love Fields. He contributes in every area and is a very good rebounder for his position. He makes up for some (but not all) of the knicks other rebounding issues. He was the steal of the draft.

 

[Kev4029]

Ed Davis making his debut tonight

Did he play at all this preseason or in summer league? I assume he did...How did he look?

I didn't catch any summer league and he was injured before the start of preseason. He just played two D league games where he had 20/10/1 with 6 blocks in 35 minutes total.

Pre-draft I viewed Davis as the biggest boom or bust prospect in the draft. I saw him either becoming an all star/near all star or being a 4th big man type. Either a Shelden Williams type player or a skinnier more athletic Al Horford/Nene type.

 

[saintfool]

How about those Spurs.

 

[Kev4029]

As a Knicks fan, Raymond Felton was by far the steal of the offseason. I believe he got like 8-9 mil a year for 2 years. Compared to the contracts Outlaw, Farmar, Reddick, Korver got he is beyond a bargain. He has gotten better and better the more he plays with Amare. Love the Knicks rotation of Amare plus the 4 small guys, since it frees up room for Amare to own the entire paint and all the guys like Chandler, Fields and Felton are above average rebounders for their positions.Amare + Felton was a huge win afterall for the Knicks.

I think Amare + Felton were the first really good free agency moves the Knicks have made. Each day they seem to get better together and we still have room for another max player. Also, I just love Fields. He contributes in every area and is a very good rebounder for his position. He makes up for some (but not all) of the knicks other rebounding issues. He was the steal of the draft.

They have room for a young max player (coming off their rookie deal) but not enough for Melo.The Felton deals was a good one because they got him at a fair price (slighly above market value at the time, has proven to be a good value) but they got him on a short contract that gives them a chance to grab Paul in two years and generally just gives them lots of cap flexibility in the future. If they do sign a big FA this year taking away their cap flexibility they can still extend him beyond 2011-2012. If they decide they like him they can give him a contract for up to 9.75 million in 2012-2013 I think (early bird because he only got a two year contract, not three meaning he can get 130% of his previous year).

 

[Kiddnets]

I dont think the Favors hype train has made it out there yet - he is only playing limited minutes on a very mediocre team. However, as someone who watches closely and from what I have heard from some people within the Nets - he looks like a beast in training. Great attitude, NBA body, natural rebounder with a decent offensive game...plus the kid is 19 on a rook contract which locks him up for peanuts for yrs.

Great big men are hard to find so to deal him for Melo (along with solid 1st rders their own lotto pick and GS pick) to be a mid pack team just doesnt do it for me.....Id rather unleash him with F/T minutes next year, add another lotto picks with Harris/Brook and see if something else materializes that they could get for the lots of cap room they have. If they hit it big on one more player I think they would be a real contender rather than a middle pack with Melo.

 

[Redwes25]

As a Knicks fan, Raymond Felton was by far the steal of the offseason. I believe he got like 8-9 mil a year for 2 years. Compared to the contracts Outlaw, Farmar, Reddick, Korver got he is beyond a bargain. He has gotten better and better the more he plays with Amare. Love the Knicks rotation of Amare plus the 4 small guys, since it frees up room for Amare to own the entire paint and all the guys like Chandler, Fields and Felton are above average rebounders for their positions.Amare + Felton was a huge win afterall for the Knicks.

I think Amare + Felton were the first really good free agency moves the Knicks have made. Each day they seem to get better together and we still have room for another max player. Also, I just love Fields. He contributes in every area and is a very good rebounder for his position. He makes up for some (but not all) of the knicks other rebounding issues. He was the steal of the draft.

They have room for a young max player (coming off their rookie deal) but not enough for Melo.The Felton deals was a good one because they got him at a fair price (slighly above market value at the time, has proven to be a good value) but they got him on a short contract that gives them a chance to grab Paul in two years and generally just gives them lots of cap flexibility in the future. If they do sign a big FA this year taking away their cap flexibility they can still extend him beyond 2011-2012. If they decide they like him they can give him a contract for up to 9.75 million in 2012-2013 I think (early bird because he only got a two year contract, not three meaning he can get 130% of his previous year).

True on cap space but they have a lot of flexability they haven't had in years and they look like an improving team that is still figuring each other out as so few players were on the team last year. This is the first time I have been excited about the Knicks in a long time.

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

Also Pau wasn't an all league talent on the Grizzlies.

Oof.

How many all NBA awards did he win in Memphis?

I didn't say he was winning all NBA awards, I said he was an All NBA talent. He is nearly the exact same player today as he was when he was 21 in Memphis. He deserved a couple all nba teams in his years in Memphis.

He had stiff comp with KG and TD in their primes. Kev is right. Gasol is pretty much the same player since he took the league by storm his rookie year. He was just always overlooked playing on a crappy team and in the shadow of KG and Duncan.

Aside from never making an all nba team as a Grizzlie he only made one all star team. He made as many all star teams as David West, Carlos Boozer, Mehmet Okur, Rashard Lewis and Brad Miller during that period. Meanwhile guys like Garnett, Duncan, Nowitzki, Brand, Ming, Marion, Shaq and Stoudemire made two or more. Pau Gasol was an only an all league talent in Memphis if you ignore all of the actual all league talent ahead of him.

 

[Gr00vus]

Stat of the day:In 13 wins Bryant averages 18.8 FGA. In 4 loses, 26.5 FGA. Oof.

It's 5 losses now. Try to keep up.

 

[Premier]

Apparently the Magic are going super-hard after Arenas. Not sure I like that move. At all.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Stat of the day:In 13 wins Bryant averages 18.8 FGA. In 4 losses, 26.5 FGA. Oof.

It's 5 losses now. Try to keep up.

I guess ESPN hasn't updated their stats yet today. The FGA in losses will be even higher!

 

[Gr00vus]

Apparently the Magic are going super-hard after Arenas. Not sure I like that move. At all.

Any details on what they'd give up? Gotta believe they wouldn't have to give up much to get him. You worried more about the on his contract or his potential for messing up the chemistry? If he could get back to the player he was a couple of years ago the Magic could do some crazy scoring.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Aside from never making an all nba team as a Grizzlie he only made one all star team. He made as many all star teams as David West, Carlos Boozer, Mehmet Okur, Rashard Lewis and Brad Miller during that period. Meanwhile guys like Garnett, Duncan, Nowitzki, Brand, Ming, Marion, Shaq and Stoudemire made two or more. Pau Gasol was an only an all league talent in Memphis if you ignore all of the actual all league talent ahead of him.

Or if you understand that many of the designations you're talking about are as much about reputation and visibility as they are about skill and production. I always assumed every serious sports fan knew this, but I guess not. The guy is in the Top 15 in PER in virtually every season of his career. He was #7 overall in 2006-2007. Suggesting he wasn't one of the elite talents in basketball at that point is just absurd.You really should stop digging yourself into this hole.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Apparently the Magic are going super-hard after Arenas. Not sure I like that move. At all.

Link?Also,

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

Aside from never making an all nba team as a Grizzlie he only made one all star team. He made as many all star teams as David West, Carlos Boozer,

Mehmet Okur, Rashard Lewis and Brad Miller during that period. Meanwhile guys like Garnett, Duncan, Nowitzki, Brand, Ming, Marion, Shaq and Stoudemire made two or more. Pau Gasol was an only an all league talent in Memphis if you ignore all of the actual all league talent ahead of him.

Or if you understand that many of the designations you're talking about are as much about reputation and visibility as they are about skill and production. I always assumed every serious sports fan knew this, but I guess not.

The guy is in the Top 15 in PER in virtually every season of his career. He was #7 overall in 2006-2007. Suggesting he wasn't one of the elite talents in basketball at that point is just absurd.

You really should stop digging yourself into this hole.

In the FFA world Bulls fans were sweating the idea of trading Loul Deng for him Link

In the Build a Franchise Draft he was drafted after Dirk, Duncan, Ming, Howard, Bosh, Stoudamire, Oden, Brand, Garnett, Jermaine O'Neal and Boozer.

link

CBS Sportsline pegged him as the 7th best PF (via Assani Fisher)

Link

Bill Simmons pegged him as the 39th most valuable player between Chandler and Camby: Proposes trade of Gasol and Juan Carlos Navarro for Bargnani, Rasho Nesterovic's expiring deal, an unprotected 2008 No. 1 and $3 million.

Link

Assani Fisher labels him a Tier 3 player

Link

Lots of "serious" sports fans dropped the ball here

 

[TobiasFunke]

Aside from never making an all nba team as a Grizzlie he only made one all star team. He made as many all star teams as David West, Carlos Boozer,

Mehmet Okur, Rashard Lewis and Brad Miller during that period. Meanwhile guys like Garnett, Duncan, Nowitzki, Brand, Ming, Marion, Shaq and Stoudemire made two or more. Pau Gasol was an only an all league talent in Memphis if you ignore all of the actual all league talent ahead of him.

Or if you understand that many of the designations you're talking about are as much about reputation and visibility as they are about skill and production. I always assumed every serious sports fan knew this, but I guess not.

The guy is in the Top 15 in PER in virtually every season of his career. He was #7 overall in 2006-2007. Suggesting he wasn't one of the elite talents in basketball at that point is just absurd.

You really should stop digging yourself into this hole.

In the FFA world Bulls fans were sweating the idea of trading Loul Deng for him Link

In the Build a Franchise Draft he was drafted after Dirk, Duncan, Ming, Howard, Bosh, Stoudamire, Oden, Brand, Garnett, Jermaine O'Neal and Boozer.

link

CBS Sportsline pegged him as the 7th best PF (via Assani Fisher)

Link

Bill Simmons pegged him as the 39th most valuable player between Chandler and Camby: Proposes trade of Gasol and Juan Carlos Navarro for Bargnani, Rasho Nesterovic's expiring deal, an unprotected 2008 No. 1 and $3 million.

Link

Assani Fisher labels him a Tier 3 player

Link

Lots of "serious" sports fans dropped the ball here

Virtually all of those links are from pre- or mid-2007, i.e. before he'd finished his best season, and most of them put him in the Top 20 or so players in a league that has 30 teams. By what possible definition is that not elite?

 

[Premier]

Can't quote, so:

www.orlandopinstripedpost.com

deal is rumored to involve Lewis and/or Vince.

I would dislike it because Arenas seems to be diminishing some, and has 3 years left after this one. He is the ballhandler that they need though.

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

Aside from never making an all nba team as a Grizzlie he only made one all star team. He made as many all star teams as David West, Carlos Boozer,

Mehmet Okur, Rashard Lewis and Brad Miller during that period. Meanwhile guys like Garnett, Duncan, Nowitzki, Brand, Ming, Marion, Shaq and Stoudemire made two or more. Pau Gasol was an only an all league talent in Memphis if you ignore all of the actual all league talent ahead of him.

Or if you understand that many of the designations you're talking about are as much about reputation and visibility as they are about skill and production. I always assumed every serious sports fan knew this, but I guess not.

The guy is in the Top 15 in PER in virtually every season of his career. He was #7 overall in 2006-2007. Suggesting he wasn't one of the elite talents in basketball at that point is just absurd.

You really should stop digging yourself into this hole.

In the FFA world Bulls fans were sweating the idea of trading Loul Deng for him Link

In the Build a Franchise Draft he was drafted after Dirk, Duncan, Ming, Howard, Bosh, Stoudamire, Oden, Brand, Garnett, Jermaine O'Neal and Boozer.

link

CBS Sportsline pegged him as the 7th best PF (via Assani Fisher)

Link

Bill Simmons pegged him as the 39th most valuable player between Chandler and Camby: Proposes trade of Gasol and Juan Carlos Navarro for Bargnani, Rasho Nesterovic's expiring deal, an unprotected 2008 No. 1 and $3 million.

Link

Assani Fisher labels him a Tier 3 player

Link

Lots of "serious" sports fans dropped the ball here

Virtually all of those links are from pre- or mid-2007, i.e. before he'd finished his best season, and most of them put him in the Top 20 or so players in a league that has 30 teams. By what possible definition is that not elite?

Why does it matter? According to you guys he's been the same player since he was 21. Who said anything about being elite? That's your own vague parameter that you just brought up right now.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Why does it matter? According to you guys he's been the same player since he was 21. Who said anything about being elite? That's your own vague parameter that you just brought up right now.

I never said that. I think he's clearly better than he was at 21. I just don't think he's all that much better than he was at the time of the 2008 trade and in the couple of years preceding that. You know, when the Lakers offered up what was, at the time, essentially a pile of poop for him. And I'm pretty sure that if the Grizz had shopped him more actively they could have gotten a far better offer. And I'm also sure they we've never gotten a reasonable explanation from anyone as to why they didn' bother to do so.

 

[Smarge]

The only reason Pau wasn't considered elite by some just before the trade was that he took some of the blame for the Grizzlies lack of playoff success. "He's soft" was the refrain. Our society comes down especially hard on people we don't think are tough, especially Euros. He's proven that with talent around him, he's more than capable of having success when it counts. He's always been an outstanding player.

 

[Smarge]

There's not one GM in the league that would choose Melo over Rose at this point when building a team.

I am quite sure there are at least a few who would do so.Carmelo Anthony is only 26 years old. His previous 2 years, and this year, have been better than Rose's.Yes, Derrick Rose has the chance of being a better ball player than Carmelo. He isn't there yet though, and he may never get there.

Rose is four years younger, and plays a premium position. He's improved every season, and is playing near MVP level this season. He's been better than Melo this season. I like Melo and think he's probably worth a max contract for the Nets if they can get him, but I just had to interject when I saw your comments about Rose.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Can't quote, so:www.orlandopinstripedpost.comdeal is rumored to involve Lewis and/or Vince. I would dislike it because Arenas seems to be diminishing some, and has 3 years left after this one. He is the ballhandler that they need though.

I don't think it's any secret that the Arenas deal is toxic, must like the Lewis deal. I can tell you that a lot of Wiz fans have been really happy with him thus far this year. His game was never about quickness in my opinion, it was more about savvy. He shoots a decent enough percentage from three that you have to guard him on the perimeter, and when you do he can take it to the rim with a certain bull-headedness (for lack of a better description) that draws a ton of fouls, which of course he compliments by shooting a decent percentage from the line. Those are all skills that shouldn't fade too much. It's not like he's ever had a lightning-fast first step or something.Of course, I'd still be delighted to see him go, especially if we don't have to take on Rashard Lewis's deal in exchange. I guess that buys us a year as compared to Arenas, right? Otherwise, I don't know that it helps us that much. But it may be worth it just for that extra year.