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When you're making a definitive statement on another persons thoughts (or in this case 32 peoples) you should have something to back it up. I would provide you a link, but I never claimed that I knew if any GMs agreed with my statement or not. You apparently know that all 32 would agree with you which is why I would like to see you back it up.
When you factor in health and maturity, I suspect the truth is the exact opposite of your assertion. If Bynum could stay healthy, the result might be different, but I'm not sure any GM would bet his job on Bynum's knees at this point.
ESPN would never make up stories, push patently false stories, and generally fan the flames to drive their ratings. NEVER.
I have a new sig. Please read it, TIA.
Looking at that picture, it would definitely not be surprising.
I'm interested in some opinions from non-Laker fans, non-Bulls fan and non-Laker haters here. I would guess that over half of GMs would prefer Noah all things considered but, of course, I'm a Bulls and Noah fan.
Yes, based off of the offers I've seen. I'd rather make a run for it this year. The team has won like 110 games the past two years.
I think it depends. If you have a shot at a title this year, and need defense and rebounding, Noah is probably a better bet. If you are rebuilding and/or need to hit a homerun with a guy who could be dominant on both ends of the floor, Bynum is a better bet.
I'd rather have Noah. Mavs fan.
This.Also I'm not sure that there is such a thing as a non-Lakers fan and also a non-Lakers hater.
I think there is - I'm neutral on the Lakers. Big fan of Kobe's attitude though (not shtick)
For what its worth, I also have a strong dislike for Noah.
If I were a GM of a rebuilding team I would really want to stay away from Bynum's knees. Seems like too great a gamble and an easy way to get fired. On the other hand, Noah would provide a good model for energy and effort on the defensive end -- something that rebuilding teams are often lacking.
It's a tough call. Noah is a max effort guy whose value exceeds a relatively low skill set. Bynum is the opposite; his ceiling is virtually limitless and only injuries have stopped him from being an elite, franchise player.Noah is a safer bet, so a few teams who have multiple offensive stars on the perimeter and are missing a rebounding/defensive/energy guy in the middle may prefer Noah. If you're looking for a franchise center to build a team around, Bynum is potentially that player, Noah isn't.
I'd argue that if Howard tells the Magic he won't re-sign, bringing in Gasol + Odom allows the Magic to make a run for it this year, and for '13 and '14. Obviously I'm in favor of a Gasol+Odom for Howard swap, but it's not because I believe that this year, Howard alone is more valuable than Gasol+Odom.
They keep Howard, they'll make the playoffs, possibly as high as the 3 seed in the east. But unless there are significant injuries on the Bulls and Heat I can't see them getting to the Finals. I don't see a clear path to improving the Magic roster significantly enough to change this - which is seemingly the only way Howard stays.Given that, is it really the best move to play out the string with Howard?
Make a run for what? That's a 45-win team, tops. The next two drafts are supposed to be loaded. If DH leaves, I'd rather see them tank for a year, clear the cap space, get a high lottery pick and get some free agents in 13 and 14. Orlando has never had a problem attracting guys to sign.
Bet you didn't see the Mavs winning the title last year either. Crazy things can happen when you have a top-3 player.
I figured they'd be a top team in the west, the question was always about their heads, not their talent - their roster was loaded. Dallas's best player had just reupped to stay there long term as a result. The Magic roster is a mess of mismatched, overpriced parts and Howard. I don't see the parallel.Planning on crazy things happening doesn't strike me as the best way to approach running a franchise.I'd take a serious look at working with the Nets on improving the package they can get.
The Mavs went out in the first round the year before and I doubt anyone had them in their top-3 of teams that could win the title last year. I don't think that roster was particularly loaded either.
We disagree. Dallas may have been old, but they were loaded. I think I'm taking the more rational position. I don't think the Magic are in the top 6 of teams that could with the title this year, much less top 3.
I just looked up those ESPN player rankings they did in the offseason. They has Noah at #29 and Bynum right behind at #30. One should always remain skeptical about ESPN's opinions, of course, but it's pretty clear that this isn't a no-brainer type decision like Cliff and Tim make it out to be.
That's the thing though, if they play out the string with Howard, the Magic basically clear everyone (or more precisely can) after the 2013 season and be left with 19 million on their books (once Arenas is amnestied). You'd have to add in a couple of draft picks, etc., but you're still left with the possibility that they could sign 2 max guys after being a lottery team in 2013. Frankly, that's not that bad an option. All you're really doing by hanging onto Howard instead of trading for Pau/Odom is the 2013 season. If you do that trade, then you're left with a 33 year old Pau making 19 million in 2013/14 and not a lot of options to rebuild going forward and the question of do you resign Odom. If I was a Magic fan, I think I'd much rather just start over at that point.
I should clarify. I don't think it is a 100% no-brainer. Bynum definitely has the higher ceiling but I do not think he'll achieve that ceiling because of his attitude and injuries. If I could be convinced that he would overcome those flaws I'd put him above Noah. Personally, I'd rather have the high energy team guy instead of the guy with injury concerns and history of dirty play.
To be clear, I don't think the Gasol/Odom deal makes sense for the Magic. But if they're going to rebuild why not start now and have those Nets 1st rounders heading into what should be a nice draft, plus a couple of decent players (Lopez, Morrow, Humphries), dump salary now as well and maybe hang on to their amnesty ticket for later use?
Exactly. Just as Chicago would deal any player besides Rose. And the Clippers would deal anyone but Griffin. And the Mavericks would deal anyone but Dirk. Etc.Which is why I was questioning how newsworthy it is that the Lakers would deal anyone but Kobe. No ####. We are talking about the most dominant big man in the game. Of course you deal anyone but your one other franchise player.
I would prefer Noah, slightly, because of Bynum's leg problems, but talent wise it isn't even close. Bynum is the much better player, hes a better rebounder, infinitely better on the low block and he may be the better defender (Noah is the better team defender, and Bynum is much better defensively in the post, IMO they are pretty close overall defensively). In a different life in which Bynum had played something like 320 games instead of 204 and they were all with healthy legs, he would probably be a top 10 player in the NBA. Of course that isn't the case, and he is the biggest injury risk in the league so hes never developed into a star and hasn't even been on the court enough to be an All-Star, but he's only 24 (2.5 years younger than Noah) and he has plenty of time to right his career.I'm not sure I even see a legitimate argument for Noah being the better player, even if he is the far more effective one because of Bynum's injuries (which Noah has had a problem with too in his career).
Crazy things can happen if you have great players, regardless of whether they're "top 3". I'm pretty sure people put Dirk and Pau in the same tier before last years playoffs. Yet now adding Pau + Odom in Howard's place = "45 win team"? I disagree. I don't think the swap hurts Orlando's chances this year at all. It's the long term future that makes Howard more valuable than Pau and Lamar.
That works... if they amnesty Billups and if Gasol accepts only about $10M per year and if the Knicks don't mind filling out the rest of their roster with minimum guys.
Bynum has much more potential and is a better offensive player. I will also agree he is the better low post defender and who is the better defender depends on the matchups. However, there is no justification that he is the better rebounder. Bynum had a higher rate last year but their career numbers favor Noah. Also, the Bulls feature a front line that is better on the boards resulting in diminished numbers for Noah especially on the defensive end with Boozer snatching up over 1/4 (nearly 30% pre-Bulls) of all rebounds. When fully healthy, Noah can absolutely dominate games on the glass.One other factor is that Noah was actually beginning to hit the 15 foot jumper with some consistency and was developing a decent drive off that jumper. His wrist injury basically took that part of his game away and it didn't show in the playoffs. If he can recover that jumper, he can increase his offensive value outside of setting picks and being a beast on the offensive glass. Not to Bynum's level of offensive value of course but it is an improvement that could diminish Bynum's major advantage.'Kev4029 said:
Or they keep him and try to win a title with him this season. Then if after the season he wants to go to the Lakers, he will have to do a sign-and-trade because I do not think the Lakers can afford to sign him with the cap, so the Magic still will get some pieces or Howard has to play somewhere else like the Clippers or Nets.'timschochet said:
Agree about the defender bit, and I think Noah's defensive style fits much better with what the Bulls have going than if they had Bynum. As for rebounding, maybe it would have been better if I said equivalent, but I truely don't think that Noah is a superior rebounder. Up until last year Noah had been fighting for rebounds from guys like Hakim Warrick, Brad Miller, and Tyrus Thomas while Bynum had Gasol and Odom. I would expect that given similar situations their rebounding output would be similar with Noah grabbing more offensive boards because of his activity and Bynum grabbing more defensive boards because hes stronger and tends to stay closer to the hoop.Noah has improved his jumper, its gone from completely worthless to something they would let him shoot if he's wide open, but over the past two years hes only shot 160 jump shots and has made 62 (39%). Certainly that is something to build on, but hes only shooting that about once a game which even if he hit a higher percentage, it wouldn't really help his game much (just for comparison, over the last three years Bynum has shot 82/226 for 36%). The only centers that can match Bynum's offensive game (if you excluded part timers like Pau and Amare) are Howard, Nene (even as a Nuggets fan I never realized how effective he is in the post) and Shaq. Having somebody that needs a constant double team down low opens all sorts of looks for the rest of your team, Bynum is one of only 10 or so guys that needs double teams on the block (including all the PFs, Kobe when he feels like going down there and Melo). Like I mentioned a couple days ago in discussing Melo, defensive stalwarts are great to have and are incredibly valuable, but having an elite offensive talent is much more important than having an elite defense player (unless that player is Dwight Howard or Bill Russell). The fact that Bynum blows Noah out of the water in this facet of his game and is even comparable with the rest of his game makes him a better player in my mind. Alas, this is somewhat of a pointless conversation because Bynum has had one healthy season in his six year career, and its likely that trend will continue.
If all healthy, I agree that Bynum is better than Noah due to his offensive talent. Yet, I think it is clear Noah is the superior rebounder. His offensive glass work is unquestioned. However, his defensive rebounding was hurt much more significantly by the rest of his front line who are much better rebounders than Bynum's Laker equivalents. Boozer in particular has the 3rd highest defensive rebound rate among active players. I would say that Noah has a clear edge on the offensive glass and they are basically even on the defensive end. And my comment about Noah's jumper would not show in his full season stats since his injury prevented him from taking that shot for half the games he played. Before that injury, he was showing increasing confidence in his shot. If his confidence and consistency return, it could be a weapon that improves the Bulls spacing for Boozer and Rose.It is funny that Noah gets and edge over any player because of health. He has missed 52 games the last two seasons and his and Boozer's health are the major questions for the Bulls (along with SG). Both were significantly hindered physically during the playoffs. The question is whether either can actually stay healthy through a full playoff run.Edited to add: Noah was fighting for rebounds with Drew Gooden (16.4% career RB rate), Brad Miller (14.6%), Ben Wallace (19.0%), Tyrus Thomas (14.7%), and Taj Gibson (15.4%) prior to last season. Explain to me how Gasol at 14.5% and Odom at 14.2% prevent Bynum from gathering boards in comparison.
Really? I have heard some black athletes say this about Utah in the past, but not about Denver. Is this true?
FWIW, I agree with this. At least so far. You can always string this out until the deadline and likely get the same crap that has been offered thus far.'Premier said:
That pick is protected 1-11.'Cliff Clavin said:
I don't have many (any) facts to back this up, but I think its somewhere in the bottom half of appeal for black athletes in the NBA. There is a very small black population in the area (Denver has 10%, Aurora has 15% and Colorado Springs has 6%) so there is very little black culture around here, other than athletes there aren't a whole lot other famous black people, and typically its pretty far from home for them(it seems like most NBAers are from either west of the Mississippi or California). I'm a little surprised that Denver franchises (or Fort Collins [Colorado State] and Boulder [university of Colorado]) aren't able to better recruit athletes, our state income tax is the lower quarter of the country plus we have fairly low property tax rates, housing is cheap, the city is clean, we are constantly ranked one of the best cities for singles (more women then men, the talent is good and the women are quick to get to know you biblically), from mid spring to mid fall the weather is some of the best in the US, in the winter when the temps are cooler there is great skiing less than two hours away, we have a very passionate (not Philly passionate, but certainly better than most) fan base that is also not as critical as most, Denver (and Fort Collins and Boulder) has a great bar scene PLUS we have some of the most accessible and highest quality weed in the country.
3 Teams in lead for CP3: Clips, Dubs, CelticsPaul + who the hell cares for...
