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*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (10 Viewers)
- Thread starter Cliff Clavin
- Start date
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I think the Lakers would still have needed to clear some space to give Howard (and an extended Paul) a max deal. Like Artest and Walton would need to be off the books. This is the last year of Fisher's contract, and I'd like to think he's not playing after that.
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scoobygang
Footballguy
I don't think the Lakers past success entitles them to anything. But I don't think you can legislate results. Just opportunity. The Lakers aren't subject to special rules. They play under the same rules as everyone else. The people supporting Stern seem to think that the rules don't matter. He should just arbitrarily act in whatever way can hamstring the Lakers. But as several people are pointing out, the Lakers were taking a calculated risk with this move. And in doing so, they were allowing two smaller market teams to get assets those teams coveted. How is it better for "parity" if Chris Paul walks as a free agent next year and New Orleans gets nothing for him? Or if Houston can't replace the hole at center on their roster?
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
Thanks Wally
scoobygang
Footballguy
I don't find that bratty at all. This is Chris Paul's life. He doesn't owe "the fans that have supported him his entire career" a thing, particularly considering that those fans have been supportive that the team failed. Nor does he owe the Hornets the right to trade him for "maximum value." He's a human being, not a desk set.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
When will you stop posting in NBA threads?
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
sounds like it might be a non-issue. The new CBA wasn't signed yet, so I don't know what legal action ORL has.
Premier
Footballguy
Pretty sure the CBA has nothing to do with it.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
You're absolutely crazy if you think that there hasn't been a shift in the players' tendencies when approaching free agency in the last few years. The players now think that colluding is the only way to win titles is to arrange to play with other superstars in one of the few chosen cities. That's bad news for the other 20-something cities where teams are located.You really think all a team has to do is put enough players around a superstar to make them contenders in order to convince him to stay? The Cavs were contenders with LeBron. The Nuggets were well-run when Melo was there. Those guys decided they were gonna get together with their buddies in a city they liked and create superteams. That's a relatively new phenomenon. The Celtics and Lakers teams of the 80s mostly came about their stars in drafts and non-forced trades, with the exception of Kareem. Same for the Bulls teams of the 90s. Even the Lakers teams of a decade ago at least traded for Kobe on draft day and built the rest of the pieces normally until that 2003-04 team. Remember how hated that team was? We're essentially moving towards having three or four teams like that and nothing else. Sure, people will tune in to watch the stars collide in the short term, but eventually they'll stop supporting their local teams, and then the NBA will start to suck for most of America.You want evidence? Look at the other sports. The NFL has a hard cap and we know what happens there. The NHL has never been better since installing a relatively restrictive hard cap. The MLB model that gives clubs long-term control over drafted players and compensates them for players lost in free agency is helping create a balanced league. Meanwhile, the majority of NBA fans have spent the last year talking about how they're nearing their breaking point with the league. It's not business as usual, it's way worse.Again, that's how it's been for about 30 years now. It's up to management to make those guys want to stay. Obviously money isn't the only carrot - so the owners need to learn some new tricks, namely putting a full, competitive roster together. Money helps there, but so does player evaluation. The players are basically holding the owners accountable here - if I'm a superstar and you can't put enough players around me such that we're contenders over the course of 5 to 7 years, why the #### should I want to hang around?
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Voltaire
Footballguy
The NBA > Days of Our Lives. I can't believe we almost missed out on all of this because of the lockout.It's Fan-tastic.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I don't understand what the bolded means.Just because it is his life and he has every right to do what he pleases with it doesn't mean people have to like and support him and refrain from criticizing him if he unnecessarily chooses to do things that harm his current/former team and its fans. If you left a job for another job, that's absolutely your right and most people would wish you well, but if you take any action to undermine the company you were leaving on your way out, people at that company as well as industry observers would be completely justified in thinking you were an #######. You don't "owe it" to your former employer to not be an ########, you're just doing something that non-#######s would generally avoid.
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B-Deep
Footballguy
we've only seen kobe coexist with people like pau and lamar, not someone challenging his status
Max Power
Footballguy
I was under the impression everyones contract was "on hold" during the lockout. Players weren't getting paid, so I don't see how he is still under contract when neither side is meeting their obligations.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
I'm not actually commenting on the trade as I think the trade actually seems pretty fair to me. If anything, I think that the trade may have actually been a bad trade for the Lakers. I'm talking about the attitude of Simmons. He, quite clearly, would be happy if the Lakers, Celtics and Knicks won every title from here to eternity. And the whole idea brought up previously of how small market owners can keep players by fielding a competitive team around them is a joke. The Cavs had the best record in the league and had made it to the Finals and LeBron bailed. Gilbert was paying boatloads of money to guys and bringing in anyone he possibly could to try to complement James. Lebron was even consulted on a number of the moves that were made. And where did having the best record in the NBA, consistently making the playoffs and making the NBA Finals get them? Absolutely nowhere in the end.The NBA screwed up and the small market teams will forever be screwed without a franchise tag like the NFL. I'd argue that a franchise tag is even MORE important for a smaller team sport like the NBA than the NFL.
Premier
Footballguy
You really think Stern would buy that argument? After he just #### on a perfectly legal Chris Paul trade? Come on...
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I want to understand this, but I think you've contradicted yourself here, so It's probably impossible to remain rational and understand what you're saying.You're saying that things are bad because the players are getting together to create contenders and that if the management put together a contending team, those players on that team would go somewhere else to put together a different contending team anyway? Uh, no.Cleveland had a shot, and they really tried to make a go of it, sparing no expense. Problem is they made poor player evaluation decisions and resulting roster moves, to the extent there was little they could do to put a viable contending team around LeBron. So when it was time for him to make a decision, he left and went to the place he thought had the best chance of putting a winning team together & paying him something like market value.I just don't get the mindset that wants to force guys to play in places they don't want to play on teams that aren't run well enough to be competitive even with a superstar on board. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Max Power
Footballguy
Seems reasonable to me, but with Stern...who knows. I think the Nets will get off on this one...
There's plenty of hope. Plenty of players will play for smaller market teams if the teams are run well and put a good product on the floor. Look at Kevin Durant. He seems to love OKC and just signed a long term extension. Blake Griffin and the other players on the Clips are talking about how they want to change the perception of the Clips. So, it can be done. It just takes good management. I think that's what's overlooked here. The Lakers are the best run organization in basketball, from a management perspective down to a player evaluation perspective. They're fortunate to have the history they've created as well as the market but that would be moot if they weren't run decently.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Also, if these meetings happened last night, isn't that after the whole new deal went into effect anyway?
Premier
Footballguy
Yup. And even if the deal wasn't in effect, management still couldn't meet with players. Not sure what Max's angle is here.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
How soon (conveniently?) we forget Kobe's hissy fit of less than 5 years ago.
What? He won three championships with Shaq when Shaq was the #1 on the team.
I'm not sure what your point is. The Lakers weren't run well?
scoobygang
Footballguy
I think you have a strange definition of "being an ******." If Chris Paul tanked on the court, he'd be an *******. If Chris Paul deliberately tried to screw with his teammates, he'd be an *******. If I hoarded confidential company information on my way out the door, I'd be an *******.But he's doing none of that. All he's doing is refusing to cede over legal rights that he possesses. It would be like saying, "hey you have every right to look for a new job, but if you don't let your old company have your Cadillac, you're being an *******." He's not "harming" the Hornets because he is not depriving the Hornets of anything they legally possessed.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I'm not an NBA guy at all, so I'm not going to hit it or defend it because it's just not my sport. I was fine with it being closed up.
But, understanding that the league owns the Hornets and that makes for a unique and bad situation - is this any different than an owner overruling his general manager and not allowing him to make a trade? Like say Jerry Reese manages to negotiate behind the scenes to trade Eli Manning to the Texans for a bunch of players or picks (Herscheal Walker type trade). It gets reported that the deal has been agreed to by the Texans and the cap works however it has to and Arian Foster tweets that he is at the airport waiting for Eli to arrive - and Mr. Mara jumps in and says, basically, no. We're not doing it.
The Giants have egg on their face. Reese may resign or lose a lot of respect and obviously the players involved, especially Eli, are mad at the world, but Mara has that power, doesn't he?
But, understanding that the league owns the Hornets and that makes for a unique and bad situation - is this any different than an owner overruling his general manager and not allowing him to make a trade? Like say Jerry Reese manages to negotiate behind the scenes to trade Eli Manning to the Texans for a bunch of players or picks (Herscheal Walker type trade). It gets reported that the deal has been agreed to by the Texans and the cap works however it has to and Arian Foster tweets that he is at the airport waiting for Eli to arrive - and Mr. Mara jumps in and says, basically, no. We're not doing it.
The Giants have egg on their face. Reese may resign or lose a lot of respect and obviously the players involved, especially Eli, are mad at the world, but Mara has that power, doesn't he?
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
First bolded: What? Cleveland led the league in wins with LeBron one season, and made the Finals in a different season. They absolutely put him in a position to win a title. They just didn't get it done and he didn't want to stick around and give them more chances, even though there's a pretty good chance they would have gotten it done in the next few years. And when he left he didn't go to the place he thought had the best chance of putting a winning team together. That would probably have been Chicago. He went to one of the glamour destinations (one of just a handful in the league) so he could play with his buddy and try to build a superteam. That is what I'm saying is the new phenomenon, and it's bad for the league.Second bolded: I hear you, really I do. I always support the players' positions in disputes with management in sports leagues. The recent NBA lockout was no exception. Unfortunately, sports leagues have to maintain a balance between giving the players freedom of movement and providing for competitive balance. Every other sport has found a decent way to do this. Some people gripe about baseball, but those are mostly people who don't understand the system. The NBA, however, can't seem to do it. And it's not a bunch of casual observers making this statement. It's people like me who are positively itching to embrace their local franchise, except they find themselves asking whether it's worth the trouble if, even if they do luck into a star, the whole thing will probably fall apart in a few years when the guy reaches free agency and leaves for NY or LA.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
No, that it's not a small market/big market, "unattractive city"/"unattractive city" thing.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
And you have a strange definition of "harming." If on the way out the door to a new job I tell my current employer's clients that my coworkers at my old company are horrible people and do poor work in my opinion, am I not harming my old company? I haven't deprived them of anything they legally possessed, so I guess by your definition there's no harm done?Broadcasting information that you could easily keep to yourself that harms the business interests of the team (and its fans) is not as bad as some of the other things Paul could have done, granted. But simply not doing the worst possible thing you could have done doesn't mean you're not an #######.
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Max Power
Footballguy
Could be, I thought it was this morning.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
We've covered this so many times already, but
You're crazy if you think that Cleveland team was put together well enough to win anything, and the results bear that out. They had a shot at impact players - not Jamison or gimpy Shaq - but didn't pull the trigger because guys like Parker and West were untouchable. Maybe that's what LeBron dictated, but either way they ####ed up and eventually landed themselves in cap hell as a result of their bad decisions. They land Stoudamire instead of Jamison, he's probably still in Cleveland and they probably have a ring or two to show for it. So LeBron left. Learn from that and move on. But that's not on the players, that's on the bad management decisions. It's that simple.TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I think you need to consider the possibility that the didn't/couldn't land Stoudamire because, they're in Cleveland, either because Stoudamire didn't want to go there or because LeBron didn't want to give assurances that he'd stay there. That is exactly the sort of problem I'm referring to.Also- you're gonna tell me a team that led the league in wins one year and made the Finals another year wasn't in position to win anything? I thought you were one of the rational ones. Every team that reaches that level is in a position to win the title, it's simply a question of whether the breaks go their way.We've covered this so many times already, but
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
No - did that really happen? Seems like there's a couple more shoes that need to drop after that one.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
No Toby, I'm talking about 2.5 years or so ago when Cleveland could have traded for Stoudamire but (IIRC) wouldn't include Anthony Parker in the package so PHO walked away from the deal. No FA involved there at all. Cle management just simply ####ed up, and it was obvious at the time (at least to me).I think you need to consider the possibility that the didn't/couldn't land Stoudamire because, they're in Cleveland, either because Stoudamire didn't want to go there or because LeBron didn't want to give assurances that he'd stay there. That is exactly the sort of problem I'm referring to.We've covered this so many times already, but
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tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Getting rid of the draft certainly can't hurt Toronto. Your Raptors suck not b/c big market teams are bullies, but b/c your organization is horrible when it comes to talent evaluation. In '05 you pased on Bynum, DLee and Granger for Chuckie V. You took Bargnani over Roy, Gay, Aldridge and Rondo in '06. The Raptors didn't even have a draft pick in '07. In '08, you traded the rights to Roy Hibbert for Jermaine O'Neal.Memo to Cliff - stop the whining and start holding your franchise accountable for the horrible draft decisions that put them in the hole they're in.Nope, can't get much worse. At least now, there might be fleeting hope for a couple years but that is more a pipe dream than anything else.Go for it. I'm serious. At will seems to work in every other industry, let's open it up. Can't be any worse than what they have now according to you, right?You're right. Lets get rid of the draft and just let players go where they want. May as well get rid of contracts since they don't mean a whole hell of a lot anymore.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Fair enough.But you can find personnel errors by every team, so that kind of seems like cherry-picking rather than definitive evidence that the Cavs were poorly run. You were a Lakers fan when they traded Butler in his prime for Kwame, you don't need me to tell you that.No Toby, I'm talking about 2.5 years or so ago when Cleveland could have traded for Stoudamire but (IIRC) wouldn't include Anthony Parker in the package so PHO walked away from the deal. No FA involved there at all. Cle management just simply ####ed up, and it was obvious at the time (at least to me).I think you need to consider the possibility that the didn't/couldn't land Stoudamire because, they're in Cleveland, either because Stoudamire didn't want to go there or because LeBron didn't want to give assurances that he'd stay there. That is exactly the sort of problem I'm referring to.We've covered this so many times already, but
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
actually he apparently decided 3 years prior that he was going to join his buddies to play in 'South Beach', yet continued to demand that the Cavs add pieces and spend exhorbitantly. He could have at least told them that he didn't like the Jamison deal so that they wouldn't have been strapped with that contract.yet the Heat are praised for wasting 3 years of Wade's prime in order to strip the roster and make room for 3 max guys. well, Cleveland didn't have that option.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
But that Cle one was just one of several. Like I said, they turned down some other deals that would have helped because Delonte West was untouchable. Then they take on Jamison's miserable contract essentially hamstringing themselves from being able to sign any top FAs. Lots of little things like that. Maybe those are all moves LeBron "dictated" but it's still on management to be the adult in the relationship. LeBron would get over it at the point he realized he's got a better wing man than Mo Williams. The Cavs got their lottery ticket, had 7 years, and they blew it - why the #### should any superstar caliber player want to reup for a situation like that? Blew it is too harsh - that was arguably the best 7 years of Cavs BBall, depending on how you feel about the Daugherty/Price years. What a jerk LeBron was for carrying that franchise.Fair enough.But you can find personnel errors by every team, so that kind of seems like cherry-picking rather than definitive evidence that the Cavs were poorly run. You were a Lakers fan when they traded Butler in his prime for Kwame, you don't need me to tell you that.No Toby, I'm talking about 2.5 years or so ago when Cleveland could have traded for Stoudamire but (IIRC) wouldn't include Anthony Parker in the package so PHO walked away from the deal. No FA involved there at all. Cle management just simply ####ed up, and it was obvious at the time (at least to me).I think you need to consider the possibility that the didn't/couldn't land Stoudamire because, they're in Cleveland, either because Stoudamire didn't want to go there or because LeBron didn't want to give assurances that he'd stay there. That is exactly the sort of problem I'm referring to.We've covered this so many times already, but
scoobygang
Footballguy
This is so bizarre. Chris Paul didn't broadcast the Hornets' information. The only thing he broadcast were his own private intentions. That doesn't belong to the Hornets. It belongs to him. No team is going to trade for him without him extending his contract, so it's not as if he could have stayed silent anyway. You are essentially saying that Chris Paul is obigated to give up free agency in order to not be an *******. Are you Kennesaw Mountain Landis?
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
If anything, Paul is doing the Hornets a favor by telling them in advance that he's leaving when his contract is up. Would it be more honorable for Paul to keep that info to himself, and allow Hornets management to operate under the assumption that they have a chance at retaining his services after May?
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
And it was one of several for L.A. too. It's hard to make a worse personnel decision than drafting Javaris freaking Crittenton in the first round.Bottom line: explain to me why it's rational behavior for me to continue to support the Wizards given the actions of almost every elite player in the league over the last half-decade. Just cross my fingers and hand over thousands of dollars for tickets and watch hundreds of hours of games on the slim chance that Wall is more Kevin Durant than LeBron/Carmelo/Paul/Bosh/Amare/Williams/etc.?But that Cle one was just one of several. Like I said, they turned down some other deals that would have helped because Delonte West was untouchable. Then they take on Jamison's miserable contract essentially hamstringing themselves from being able to sign any top FAs. Lots of little things like that. Maybe those are all moves LeBron "dictated" but it's still on management to be the adult in the relationship. LeBron would get over it at the point he realized he's got a better wing man than Mo Williams. The Cavs got their lottery ticket, had 7 years, and they blew it - why the #### should any superstar caliber player want to reup for a situation like that? Blew it is too harsh - that was arguably the best 7 years of Cavs BBall, depending on how you feel about the Daugherty/Price years. What a jerk LeBron was for carrying that franchise.Fair enough.But you can find personnel errors by every team, so that kind of seems like cherry-picking rather than definitive evidence that the Cavs were poorly run. You were a Lakers fan when they traded Butler in his prime for Kwame, you don't need me to tell you that.No Toby, I'm talking about 2.5 years or so ago when Cleveland could have traded for Stoudamire but (IIRC) wouldn't include Anthony Parker in the package so PHO walked away from the deal. No FA involved there at all. Cle management just simply ####ed up, and it was obvious at the time (at least to me).I think you need to consider the possibility that the didn't/couldn't land Stoudamire because, they're in Cleveland, either because Stoudamire didn't want to go there or because LeBron didn't want to give assurances that he'd stay there. That is exactly the sort of problem I'm referring to.We've covered this so many times already, but
Every other league has figured out a way to answer that question for small and mid market teams. The NBA needs to do the same.
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Premier
Footballguy
Yahoo reporting it, it appears. As of this moment though, I am assuming nothing is real.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Jog my memory on the Delonte deals?I don't think Parker was ever an obstacle in the Pho discussions, it was Hickson, no? And that is assuming Pho was definitely willing to do those deals, which I don't think we really know. They got cold feet numerous times over the years with regards to dealing Amare.But that Cle one was just one of several. Like I said, they turned down some other deals that would have helped because Delonte West was untouchable. Then they take on Jamison's miserable contract essentially hamstringing themselves from being able to sign any top FAs. Lots of little things like that. Maybe those are all moves LeBron "dictated" but it's still on management to be the adult in the relationship. LeBron would get over it at the point he realized he's got a better wing man than Mo Williams. The Cavs got their lottery ticket, had 7 years, and they blew it - why the #### should any superstar caliber player want to reup for a situation like that? Blew it is too harsh - that was arguably the best 7 years of Cavs BBall, depending on how you feel about the Daugherty/Price years. What a jerk LeBron was for carrying that franchise.Fair enough.But you can find personnel errors by every team, so that kind of seems like cherry-picking rather than definitive evidence that the Cavs were poorly run. You were a Lakers fan when they traded Butler in his prime for Kwame, you don't need me to tell you that.No Toby, I'm talking about 2.5 years or so ago when Cleveland could have traded for Stoudamire but (IIRC) wouldn't include Anthony Parker in the package so PHO walked away from the deal. No FA involved there at all. Cle management just simply ####ed up, and it was obvious at the time (at least to me).I think you need to consider the possibility that the didn't/couldn't land Stoudamire because, they're in Cleveland, either because Stoudamire didn't want to go there or because LeBron didn't want to give assurances that he'd stay there. That is exactly the sort of problem I'm referring to.We've covered this so many times already, but
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
please list the impact, superstar, Lebron-saving players that did not come to Cleveland because Danny Ferry refused to trade DELONTE F###ING WEST.come on man.p and s don't forget the Cavs getting screwed by Carlos See You Next Tuesday Boozer.
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