*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (3 Viewers)

[Abraham]

Kobe is a special player. He has been for a long time. He's enjoyable to watch play much of the time.

My biggest thing with him is that he has too many Bad playoff losses compared to a guy like Jordan. The thunder are an excellent team but I can't see any scenario where Jordan would go down so easily.

Kobe is a top-10 guy all time, but I don't see how he gets in to the discussion of the top 5 with his resume, particularly his resume when he's the alpha dog (no shaq).

 

[TobiasFunke]

42 points 0 assists

Very impressive. Not surprising that he came out shooting, I'm pretty sure everyone expected that. It was his time to step up and "lead" his team. Apparently his idea of leading is to:1)Completely ignore teammates2)Take as many shots as possible. 3)Call out teammates (Has he done this yet? Haven't read any interviews)4)Profit from his blinded fans who see this as a good performance

The good news for Lakers fans is that when Kobe gets too old they can just get Nick Young to give them the exact same thing. Plus he's a local Southern California guy, so he's less likely to throw his teammates and the front office under a bus and demand a trade when things go sour.

 

[tommyGunZ]

42 points 0 assists

Very impressive. Not surprising that he came out shooting, I'm pretty sure everyone expected that. It was his time to step up and "lead" his team. Apparently his idea of leading is to:1)Completely ignore teammates2)Take as many shots as possible. 3)Call out teammates (Has he done this yet? Haven't read any interviews)4)Profit from his blinded fans who see this as a good performance

I'm going to ignore the hideous bait that you, Ferris, and Tobias are fishing with this morning. Just want to point out that it's posts like these that get you the Laker/Kobe hater label. No one on the planet who watched last nights game would suggest Kobe's performance was anything less than good. Now carry-on with your box score analysis.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

42 points 0 assists

Very impressive. Not surprising that he came out shooting, I'm pretty sure everyone expected that. It was his time to step up and "lead" his team. Apparently his idea of leading is to:1)Completely ignore teammates2)Take as many shots as possible. 3)Call out teammates (Has he done this yet? Haven't read any interviews)4)Profit from his blinded fans who see this as a good performance

I'm going to ignore the hideous bait that you, Ferris, and Tobias are fishing with this morning. Just want to point out that it's posts like these that get you the Laker/Kobe hater label. No one on the planet who watched last nights game would suggest Kobe's performance was anything less than good. Now carry-on with your box score analysis.

I'll admit, I didn't catch the first half. But my "box score analysis" is pretty much spot on for the 2nd half.ETA: And I'm completely fine with the Kobe hater label. I do hate me-first players who care more about themselves than the team.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I don't see how anyone can keep Kobe out of the Top 5...1. Michael Jordan1A. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/Wilt Chamberlain/Bill Russell2. Larry Bird/Magic Johnson/Tim Duncan2A. Shaquille O'Neal/Hakeem Olajuwon/Moses Malone3. Jerry West/Oscar Robertson/Julius Erving4. Bob Pettit/John Havlicek/Bob Cousy5. Kobe Bryant

 

[TobiasFunke]

42 points 0 assists

Very impressive. Not surprising that he came out shooting, I'm pretty sure everyone expected that. It was his time to step up and "lead" his team. Apparently his idea of leading is to:1)Completely ignore teammates2)Take as many shots as possible. 3)Call out teammates (Has he done this yet? Haven't read any interviews)4)Profit from his blinded fans who see this as a good performance

I'm going to ignore the hideous bait that you, Ferris, and Tobias are fishing with this morning. Just want to point out that it's posts like these that get you the Laker/Kobe hater label. No one on the planet who watched last nights game would suggest Kobe's performance was anything less than good. Now carry-on with your box score analysis.

Disagreements with Kobe/Laker fans are not the same thing as hating the Lakers/Kobe. None of these posts would be here if Lakers fans on this board and elsewhere weren't so consistently over the top with their Kobe praise and they didn't consistently apply double standards to every other player in the league. The dismissive attitude towards other teams and cities (Orlando being the primary example this year but there are plenty of others) isn't exactly endearing either.ETA: OK, apparently Clavin's posts would still be here. Not mine, though.

 

[timschochet]

Only the most delusional Kobe fans are going to argue that he's one of the top 5 players of all time or should be compared to Jordan. I'm a huge Kobe fan, but I really don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out his all time position. if I had to to guess, it's probably top 20, maybe he edges into top 10, maybe not. But who cares? Being in the top 20 means he is an amazing player.

I also don't spend a lot of time comparing Kobe to Tim Duncan or LeBron James. Those guys play different positions. They're both great. They're both probably top 20 as well, or higher. Acknowledging their greatness doesn't take anything away from Kobe Bryant.

Kobe had an amazing game last night. You guys criticize him because he had no assists, but I didn't notice that when I was watching. What I saw was a 33 year old guy who never quit, who had 3 slam dunks, who tried to will his team to victory. I loved watching him play. He had an extraordinary year, and hopefully he will next year as well. I say he's got at least one more ring in him, if Buss and Kupchak can figure this out. I'm really excited for the future.

 

[timschochet]

42 points 0 assists

Very impressive. Not surprising that he came out shooting, I'm pretty sure everyone expected that. It was his time to step up and "lead" his team. Apparently his idea of leading is to:1)Completely ignore teammates2)Take as many shots as possible. 3)Call out teammates (Has he done this yet? Haven't read any interviews)4)Profit from his blinded fans who see this as a good performance

I'm going to ignore the hideous bait that you, Ferris, and Tobias are fishing with this morning. Just want to point out that it's posts like these that get you the Laker/Kobe hater label. No one on the planet who watched last nights game would suggest Kobe's performance was anything less than good. Now carry-on with your box score analysis.

Disagreements with Kobe/Laker fans are not the same thing as hating the Lakers/Kobe. None of these posts would be here if Lakers fans on this board and elsewhere weren't so consistently over the top with their Kobe praise and they didn't consistently apply double standards to every other player in the league. The dismissive attitude towards other teams and cities (Orlando being the primary example this year but there are plenty of others) isn't exactly endearing either.ETA: OK, apparently Clavin's posts would still be here. Not mine, though.

Chicken or the egg?A lot of the responses you get from Lakers fans are in reaction to the ridiculous anti-Kobe sentiment that people like Clavin and others perpetuate.

 

[Gr00vus]

Can't say I'm surprised, but it's still sad when the season ends for my Lakers.

Over the last 2 years they just haven't been able to fire on all cylinders when it counts. They get 1 or two of their main 3 guys playing well at a time at the most, never all 3 at once. It's both the fault of a combination of skills that don't seem to mesh and coaching failure to utilize the skills properly (for whatever reason). That would be the reason to make big moves, the roster as currently constituted just doesn't work together as well as it could.

Given Kobe's no trade clause, it's a given he'll be there another two years, so you have to start with that as a constraint. I think Howard is a better fit with Kobe than Bynum, so you try to make that deal. Then you have to decide if Pau is a good fit with the 2 of them and Mike Brown. I think a good coach could make those 3 work well on offense - Howard and Gasol are more complementary than Bynum and Gasol. Brown seems to be unable to figure out how to use Pau effectively, maybe he can figure that out in the offseason if Pau is still there. Otherwise, I'm calling up Houston again to see what kind of package works for them with Pau - Pau/Sessions/??? for Lowry/rights to Dragic, Scola, Martin? Have Martin come off the bench to provide sorely neeeded scoring on the 2nd unit. Probably not enough back to Houston, but they were going to give up more for him last year I think. I imagine there's a chance Odom comes back, I think the talent is still there with him, it's his head that needs to be fixed. He never wanted to leave L.A., I think it could work if he's willing to take significantly less than he has been, and he's in no position to demand $9M a year at this point.

I'm also telling World Peace he either renegotiates his deal to take less or we're amnestying him. His D isn't worth what he gets paid and what he costs you on offense.

It's going to be an interesting offseason.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Only the most delusional Kobe fans are going to argue that he's one of the top 5 players of all time or should be compared to Jordan. I'm a huge Kobe fan, but I really don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out his all time position. if I had to to guess, it's probably top 20, maybe he edges into top 10, maybe not. But who cares? Being in the top 20 means he is an amazing player. I also don't spend a lot of time comparing Kobe to Tim Duncan or LeBron James. Those guys play different positions. They're both great. They're both probably top 20 as well, or higher. Acknowledging their greatness doesn't take anything away from Kobe Bryant.Kobe had an amazing game last night. You guys criticize him because he had no assists, but I didn't notice that when I was watching. What I saw was a 33 year old guy who never quit, who had 3 slam dunks, who tried to will his team to victory. I loved watching him play. He had an extraordinary year, and hopefully he will next year as well. I say he's got at least one more ring in him, if Buss and Kupchak can figure this out. I'm really excited for the future.

The problem, of course, is that a guy who shoots 43% from the field and 30% from three and no longer plays defense at an elite level can't "will" his team to win. It just doesn't work. He needs to do what Duncan has done as an aging all-timer: learn his limits and play a role. If he insists on being a hero, the Lakers will keep suffering from the inefficiencies of hero ball. I don't know how you can't see that from this series. Those lost leads in the fourth quarter weren't just coincidence- people have been pointing out that the Lakers were having this problem for months, in some cases years.

 

[Gr00vus]

He needs to do what Duncan has done as an aging all-timer: learn his limits and play a role. If he insists on being a hero, the Lakers will keep suffering from the inefficiencies of hero ball. I don't know how you can't see that from this series. Those lost leads in the fourth quarter weren't just coincidence- people have been pointing out that the Lakers were having this problem for months, in some cases years.

I understand Kobe is selfish and has poor judgement, but the last 2 years they haven't had the luxury of restricting Kobe's minutes to 28 a game. The rest of the team isn't good enough to stay in the games without him. So there's sort of a death spiral there - he has to go 40+ a game and be the focal point of the offense for them to have a chance, which feeds his ego and runs him down for the end of games. Their horrible bench has been a very understated but key reason for their failures the last 2 years. It was disguised somewhat by Odom's one man second unit last year, but this year it was obvious.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

42 points 0 assists

Very impressive. Not surprising that he came out shooting, I'm pretty sure everyone expected that. It was his time to step up and "lead" his team. Apparently his idea of leading is to:1)Completely ignore teammates2)Take as many shots as possible. 3)Call out teammates (Has he done this yet? Haven't read any interviews)4)Profit from his blinded fans who see this as a good performance

I'm going to ignore the hideous bait that you, Ferris, and Tobias are fishing with this morning. Just want to point out that it's posts like these that get you the Laker/Kobe hater label. No one on the planet who watched last nights game would suggest Kobe's performance was anything less than good. Now carry-on with your box score analysis.

Disagreements with Kobe/Laker fans are not the same thing as hating the Lakers/Kobe. None of these posts would be here if Lakers fans on this board and elsewhere weren't so consistently over the top with their Kobe praise and they didn't consistently apply double standards to every other player in the league. The dismissive attitude towards other teams and cities (Orlando being the primary example this year but there are plenty of others) isn't exactly endearing either.ETA: OK, apparently Clavin's posts would still be here. Not mine, though.

They'd be here. But no more often than the ones about other selfish players.

 

[TobiasFunke]

He needs to do what Duncan has done as an aging all-timer: learn his limits and play a role. If he insists on being a hero, the Lakers will keep suffering from the inefficiencies of hero ball. I don't know how you can't see that from this series. Those lost leads in the fourth quarter weren't just coincidence- people have been pointing out that the Lakers were having this problem for months, in some cases years.

I understand Kobe is selfish and has poor judgement, but the last 2 years they haven't had the luxury of restricting Kobe's minutes to 28 a game. The rest of the team isn't good enough to stay in the games without him. So there's sort of a death spiral there - he has to go 40+ a game and be the focal point of the offense for them to have a chance, which feeds his ego and runs him down for the end of games. Their horrible bench has been a very understated but key reason for their failures the last 2 years. It was disguised somewhat by Odom's one man second unit last year, but this year it was obvious.

Yeah there's something to that too I guess. I love Bynum and think they could find a way to use him a lot more, but that's based on watching maybe 5% as much Lakers basketball as you guys, so I trust your insight, especially when it comes to the bench help.I assume they'll at least try to find some depth in the offseason, but I would still have doubts about whether Kobe can ever realize that he needs to take a step back. The rumor about him telling Howard he could be their Tyson Chandler certainly suggests it's a problem for him.

 

[Gr00vus]

I assume they'll at least try to find some depth in the offseason, but I would still have doubts about whether Kobe can ever realize that he needs to take a step back. The rumor about him telling Howard he could be their Tyson Chandler certainly suggests it's a problem for him.

They're up against the cap, as always, due to the big deals Kobe and Pau have, so it'll be tough to improve through free agency unless some talent wants to go there on a sweetheart deal, which I don't see.I'm sure Kobe would be willing to play 5 or so less minutes a game if he felt like the team would at least be able to hold its ground when he's not on the court. I mean, look at what happened last night when he sat. I think the bench scored 5 points last night. On a good night the bench is giving them like 16 points a game - there's literally nothing there.And yes, Kobe and public relations don't mix.

 

[B-Deep]

Has the "Kobe as the ultimate closer" myth finally died? Or did lakers fans buy into his complete failure in the 4th quarter then loudly blame Gasol shtick?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

He needs to do what Duncan has done as an aging all-timer: learn his limits and play a role. If he insists on being a hero, the Lakers will keep suffering from the inefficiencies of hero ball. I don't know how you can't see that from this series. Those lost leads in the fourth quarter weren't just coincidence- people have been pointing out that the Lakers were having this problem for months, in some cases years.

I understand Kobe is selfish and has poor judgement, but the last 2 years they haven't had the luxury of restricting Kobe's minutes to 28 a game. The rest of the team isn't good enough to stay in the games without him. So there's sort of a death spiral there - he has to go 40+ a game and be the focal point of the offense for them to have a chance, which feeds his ego and runs him down for the end of games. Their horrible bench has been a very understated but key reason for their failures the last 2 years. It was disguised somewhat by Odom's one man second unit last year, but this year it was obvious.

They do though. They should have spent a large portion of the season running everything through Bynum and Gasol. When you have two of the top 5-10 bigs in the league, your SG should be able to limit his minutes. We've seen what Howard can do with a bunch of scrubs, why can't Bynum and Gasol do the same thing with LA? No, they aren't on Howard's level but Gasol carried a pretty crappy Memphis team to 50 wins and Bynum has all the talent needed to carry a team but does not get the opportunity. Do you think that this Lakers team would miss the playoffs without Kobe? How many wins do think it would have cost the Lakers if Kobe played the following:1/3Q: 1st 7 minutes

2/4Q: last 8 minutes

ETA: And if it did cost them a couple wins... so what? They'd be in the playoffs with a fresher Kobe and more trust in their bench.

The Spurs are getting get production for their role players because they are allowed to play and have great leadership from their coach and their star players; something the Lakers do not have.

 

[timschochet]

Kobe's a great player who had some bad moments at inopportune times that masked great play this postseason. He's exasperating the bad moments by being very quick to point out the shortcomings of his teammates and coaches while being coy about his own errors. The true measure of a person isn't how many mistakes they make. It's how they respond to those mistakes. Kobe's response to mistakes by himself and other Lakers is inconsistent with most folks' understanding of great leadership, and IMO it's getting in the way of the highest level of success his team is capable of having. That's certainly not the only problem the Lakers have and likely not the biggest problem (2), but it's a big enough problem to complicate the solutio

I tend to agree with both of these points, except for this: while I didn't like Kobe's reaction to losing game 4, I tend to find such moments an anomaly in his career. I end up listening to dozens of Kobe Bryant interviews every year, and my firm opinion is that he is a good guy: intelligent, charming, complimentary of others, and nice. This image of him that some of you have as a jerk just isn't warranted IMO. There are times when he acts like a jerk, but most of the time he comes off (at least to me) as a very decent person. And he also comes off most of the time as a very good, if not great leader of men. I think it's unfair to use short samples of extreme adversity to label a person. This man does have 5 championships, after all.

 

[timschochet]

The Spurs are getting get production for their role players because they are allowed to play and have great leadership from their coach and their star players; something the Lakers do not have. have role players.

Fixed.

 

[Todem]

Only the most delusional Kobe fans are going to argue that he's one of the top 5 players of all time or should be compared to Jordan. I'm a huge Kobe fan, but I really don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out his all time position. if I had to to guess, it's probably top 20, maybe he edges into top 10, maybe not. But who cares? Being in the top 20 means he is an amazing player. I also don't spend a lot of time comparing Kobe to Tim Duncan or LeBron James. Those guys play different positions. They're both great. They're both probably top 20 as well, or higher. Acknowledging their greatness doesn't take anything away from Kobe Bryant.Kobe had an amazing game last night. You guys criticize him because he had no assists, but I didn't notice that when I was watching. What I saw was a 33 year old guy who never quit, who had 3 slam dunks, who tried to will his team to victory. I loved watching him play. He had an extraordinary year, and hopefully he will next year as well. I say he's got at least one more ring in him, if Buss and Kupchak can figure this out. I'm really excited for the future.

I am not a raving Kobe fan at all. I just love to watch great players. He is one of the very best I have ever seen play the game. Forget rings, this and that, I am talking pure basketball. He is amazing.I could care less where other people rank him. It does not matter. No way I compare him to Jordan. I don't compare anyone to Jordan. He was the one and only.Kobe has built a very impressive legacy himself and an insane highlight reel. Just a flat out great player.It's kind of dumb to go back and forth. everyone has there own rankings. I favor forwards and guards while other guys favor centers and power fowards.If Lebron somehow get's 3-4 rings before it's all said and done....he moves right into the dicussion (because it seems rings are always a measuring stick and it should be to an extent). His skills are all time great worthy.

 

[Todem]

Kobe's a great player who had some bad moments at inopportune times that masked great play this postseason. He's exasperating the bad moments by being very quick to point out the shortcomings of his teammates and coaches while being coy about his own errors.

The true measure of a person isn't how many mistakes they make. It's how they respond to those mistakes. Kobe's response to mistakes by himself and other Lakers is inconsistent with most folks' understanding of great leadership, and IMO it's getting in the way of the highest level of success his team is capable of having. That's certainly not the only problem the Lakers have and likely not the biggest problem (2), but it's a big enough problem to complicate the solutio

I tend to agree with both of these points, except for this: while I didn't like Kobe's reaction to losing game 4, I tend to find such moments an anomaly in his career. I end up listening to dozens of Kobe Bryant interviews every year, and my firm opinion is that he is a good guy: intelligent, charming, complimentary of others, and nice. This image of him that some of you have as a jerk just isn't warranted IMO. There are times when he acts like a jerk, but most of the time he comes off (at least to me) as a very decent person. And he also comes off most of the time as a very good, if not great leader of men. I think it's unfair to use short samples of extreme adversity to label a person. This man does have 5 championships, after all.

Yep.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

I've never been a fan of Bynum

 

[tommyGunZ]

I don't think you know what "ignore" means.

Yes I do. I'm just not very good at it.

I never said anything about whether Kobe's performance last night was good or bad. His Game Score was pretty good, comparable to Games 3 and 4 of this series. All I mentioned was he took a bunch of shots, scored a big pile of points, and threw no passes that led to easy baskets. I didn't say a bunch of points/shots with no assists is bad, just said it was rare. You inferred any and all judgment about Kobe's game based on those numbers.

Whether you want to admit it or not, by posting those stats in that manner, you were commenting. You are not a new poster who joined the forum yesterday. You are the most widely read and respected basketball poster on this board, so the idea that your posts are to be read individually and in a vacuum as opposed to part of a lengthy narrative you've been weaving for years is far fetched.

Stats don't tell us anything without interpretation. Really. They don't. Statistics are an imperfect measure attempting to use objective values to make sense of imperfect situations in an imperfect world. They can help us draw conclusions about things and help us capture information that otherwise would get missed, but the numbers alone tell us nothing. So every time you've positioned me as someone who sees stats as an either/or proposition that tells us all or nothing about everything, you've been misinterpreting what I've been saying.

Agreed. Just as when I've been labeled as someone who ignores data, I've been misinterpreted.

Kobe's a great player who had some bad moments at inopportune times that masked great play this postseason. He's exasperating the bad moments by being very quick to point out the shortcomings of his teammates and coaches while being coy about his own errors. The true measure of a person isn't how many mistakes they make. It's how they respond to those mistakes. Kobe's response to mistakes by himself and other Lakers is inconsistent with most folks' understanding of great leadership, and IMO it's getting in the way of the highest level of success his team is capable of having. That's certainly not the only problem the Lakers have and likely not the biggest problem (2), but it's a big enough problem to complicate the solution.

I agree 100%. It's hard to argue against someone's leadership skills when he is leading his team to Finals appearances and Championships. When it comes crumbling down despite still having a talented supporting cast, it's time for alpha to look in the mirror. Kobe's refusal to do so (thus far) is both detrimental and frustrating.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Kobe's a great player who had some bad moments at inopportune times that masked great play this postseason. He's exasperating the bad moments by being very quick to point out the shortcomings of his teammates and coaches while being coy about his own errors.

The true measure of a person isn't how many mistakes they make. It's how they respond to those mistakes. Kobe's response to mistakes by himself and other Lakers is inconsistent with most folks' understanding of great leadership, and IMO it's getting in the way of the highest level of success his team is capable of having. That's certainly not the only problem the Lakers have and likely not the biggest problem (2), but it's a big enough problem to complicate the solutio

I tend to agree with both of these points, except for this: while I didn't like Kobe's reaction to losing game 4, I tend to find such moments an anomaly in his career. I end up listening to dozens of Kobe Bryant interviews every year, and my firm opinion is that he is a good guy: intelligent, charming, complimentary of others, and nice. This image of him that some of you have as a jerk just isn't warranted IMO. There are times when he acts like a jerk, but most of the time he comes off (at least to me) as a very decent person. And he also comes off most of the time as a very good, if not great leader of men. I think it's unfair to use short samples of extreme adversity to label a person. This man does have 5 championships, after all.

Yep.

Three more and he will be as great a leader of men as Robert Horry.

 

[timschochet]

When Pau has a good game on the boards, Bynum tends to disappear on the boards. When Bynum has a good game on the boards, Pau puts up poor numbers.

Perhaps this isn't as much a criticism of either of them, but instead a coaching issue? Or maybe, given Bynum's emergence, the chemistry just isn't there. Maybe having these two 7 footers together just doesn't work very well.

 

[saintfool]

When Pau has a good game on the boards, Bynum tends to disappear on the boards. When Bynum has a good game on the boards, Pau puts up poor numbers. Perhaps this isn't as much a criticism of either of them, but instead a coaching issue? Or maybe, given Bynum's emergence, the chemistry just isn't there. Maybe having these two 7 footers together just doesn't work very well.

pau's been relegated to the 3rd option offensively. he's not going to get his number called that often, especially with kobe running the show. the problem is not having two big men either. pau is smart enough as a passer and with enough footspeed that a hi-lo game is feasible. the spurs did it with duncan and robinson, for example, to great effect. the problem is coaching because brown is not capable of managing kobe. heck, phil jackson had problems managing kobe and his ego.

 

[RoxSolid]

Didn't check salaries, but just a thought that came to me. If the Lakers amnesty Metta.

Pau Gasol for Andre Iguodala and Lou Williams

 

[saintfool]

Didn't check salaries, but just a thought that came to me. If the Lakers amnesty Metta.Pau Gasol for Andre Iguodala and Lou Williams

why would this be a good trade for either team? help me understand.

 

[Todem]

Kobe's a great player who had some bad moments at inopportune times that masked great play this postseason. He's exasperating the bad moments by being very quick to point out the shortcomings of his teammates and coaches while being coy about his own errors.

The true measure of a person isn't how many mistakes they make. It's how they respond to those mistakes. Kobe's response to mistakes by himself and other Lakers is inconsistent with most folks' understanding of great leadership, and IMO it's getting in the way of the highest level of success his team is capable of having. That's certainly not the only problem the Lakers have and likely not the biggest problem (2), but it's a big enough problem to complicate the solutio

I tend to agree with both of these points, except for this: while I didn't like Kobe's reaction to losing game 4, I tend to find such moments an anomaly in his career. I end up listening to dozens of Kobe Bryant interviews every year, and my firm opinion is that he is a good guy: intelligent, charming, complimentary of others, and nice. This image of him that some of you have as a jerk just isn't warranted IMO. There are times when he acts like a jerk, but most of the time he comes off (at least to me) as a very decent person. And he also comes off most of the time as a very good, if not great leader of men. I think it's unfair to use short samples of extreme adversity to label a person. This man does have 5 championships, after all.

Yep.

Three more and he will be as great a leader of men as Robert Horry.

Boy you love to bait.

If you read my posts you saw I said....rings are not everything....but when we get down to comparing the best of the best.....people add them up to get this guy over that guy.

I agree.....it's not everything. And In Kobe's case......the guy is simply an amazing basketball player....if you don't think so...you are in the smallest of minorites on this planet.

 

[TobiasFunke]

In non-Laker news, Garnett again confirms, as he has time and time again, that he is one of the biggest tools in professional sports. He's just the worst.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

When Pau has a good game on the boards, Bynum tends to disappear on the boards. When Bynum has a good game on the boards, Pau puts up poor numbers. Perhaps this isn't as much a criticism of either of them, but instead a coaching issue? Or maybe, given Bynum's emergence, the chemistry just isn't there. Maybe having these two 7 footers together just doesn't work very well.

Touches. Big men need to see the ball. Countless times you'll see Bynum trying to pin his man down in good post position only to be ignored. Why fight when you know that the ball isn't coming? Abbott:

Calling an isolation -- a play where, essentially, four Lakers watch -- is the antithesis of telling Laker bigs Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum to get more involved. In other words, if you want them involved, run a play that involves them. As it was, the two almost never touched the ball, even when they did try to get position, and finished with a combined two shots in the fourth quarter.

Every single half-court set for the Lakers should start with the ball in one of their hands. It is stunning that two highly skilled bigs, that would be cornerstones for other franchises, can't get the ball for LA. Unfortunately for Laker fans, this isn't going to change until Kobe agrees which probably won't be for a couple more years. We know that no coach is going to be able to do this without getting Kobe's wrath.

 

[saintfool]

In non-Laker news, Garnett again confirms, as he has time and time again, that he is one of the biggest tools in professional sports. He's just the worst.

he's been kind of insufferable since he went to boston and won a championship. he went from being "the kid" to some kind of jackass.

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Kobe refuses to give up. I love Kobe Bryant.

Yep. Guy is a doosh of the highest magnitude, but he competes as hard as anyone I've ever seen in any sport.

This sums it up. I can't stand the person, but am amazed at the talent.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Kobe's a great player who had some bad moments at inopportune times that masked great play this postseason. He's exasperating the bad moments by being very quick to point out the shortcomings of his teammates and coaches while being coy about his own errors.

The true measure of a person isn't how many mistakes they make. It's how they respond to those mistakes. Kobe's response to mistakes by himself and other Lakers is inconsistent with most folks' understanding of great leadership, and IMO it's getting in the way of the highest level of success his team is capable of having. That's certainly not the only problem the Lakers have and likely not the biggest problem (2), but it's a big enough problem to complicate the solutio

I tend to agree with both of these points, except for this: while I didn't like Kobe's reaction to losing game 4, I tend to find such moments an anomaly in his career. I end up listening to dozens of Kobe Bryant interviews every year, and my firm opinion is that he is a good guy: intelligent, charming, complimentary of others, and nice. This image of him that some of you have as a jerk just isn't warranted IMO. There are times when he acts like a jerk, but most of the time he comes off (at least to me) as a very decent person. And he also comes off most of the time as a very good, if not great leader of men. I think it's unfair to use short samples of extreme adversity to label a person. This man does have 5 championships, after all.

Yep.

Three more and he will be as great a leader of men as Robert Horry.

Boy you love to bait.

If you read my posts you saw I said....rings are not everything....but when we get down to comparing the best of the best.....people add them up to get this guy over that guy.

I agree.....it's not everything. And In Kobe's case......the guy is simply an amazing basketball player....if you don't think so...you are in the smallest of minorites on this planet.

Those people are silly and wrong. Teams win titles, not players. No player on earth could win a title playing on a team that would otherwise suck. And the 1995-1996 Bulls could have won a title with me getting five minutes a game off the bench, and my ring would say nothing about my skill level or passion or anything else.I think he's a great basketball player. But that's not what was said here. What was implied was that titles are conclusive evidence of a player's worth.

 

[Captain Quinoa]

when is the lottery?

 

[Gr00vus]

They do though. They should have spent a large portion of the season running everything through Bynum and Gasol... The Spurs are getting get production for their role players because they are allowed to play and have great leadership from their coach and their star players; something the Lakers do not have.

Sound simple enough. Problem is the Laker role players suck. They can't make entry passes, it's painful to watch them try. They can't shoot. There's no comparison to the cast Howard had - the Magic guys were infinitely more skilled on offense. I know you want to blame Kobe for the world's ills, but you can't blame him for everything that's wrong with the Lakers. They just don't have anywhere near enough talent across the roster to compete for a championship right now. When Steve Blake is far and away the best sub you've got, you're in trouble. They got exactly where I expected them to get with the talent they have. Expecting more from this group is silly.

 

[TobiasFunke]

when is the lottery?

Next Wednesday

 

[Todem]

Kobe's a great player who had some bad moments at inopportune times that masked great play this postseason. He's exasperating the bad moments by being very quick to point out the shortcomings of his teammates and coaches while being coy about his own errors.

The true measure of a person isn't how many mistakes they make. It's how they respond to those mistakes. Kobe's response to mistakes by himself and other Lakers is inconsistent with most folks' understanding of great leadership, and IMO it's getting in the way of the highest level of success his team is capable of having. That's certainly not the only problem the Lakers have and likely not the biggest problem (2), but it's a big enough problem to complicate the solutio

I tend to agree with both of these points, except for this: while I didn't like Kobe's reaction to losing game 4, I tend to find such moments an anomaly in his career. I end up listening to dozens of Kobe Bryant interviews every year, and my firm opinion is that he is a good guy: intelligent, charming, complimentary of others, and nice. This image of him that some of you have as a jerk just isn't warranted IMO. There are times when he acts like a jerk, but most of the time he comes off (at least to me) as a very decent person. And he also comes off most of the time as a very good, if not great leader of men. I think it's unfair to use short samples of extreme adversity to label a person. This man does have 5 championships, after all.

Yep.

Three more and he will be as great a leader of men as Robert Horry.

Boy you love to bait.

If you read my posts you saw I said....rings are not everything....but when we get down to comparing the best of the best.....people add them up to get this guy over that guy.

I agree.....it's not everything. And In Kobe's case......the guy is simply an amazing basketball player....if you don't think so...you are in the smallest of minorites on this planet.

Those people are silly and wrong. Teams win titles, not players. No player on earth could win a title playing on a team that would otherwise suck. And the 1995-1996 Bulls could have won a title with me getting five minutes a game off the bench, and my ring would say nothing about my skill level or passion or anything else.I think he's a great basketball player. But that's not what was said here.

100% on the same page.

In other news.......so Barkely said Pacers in 6 or Heat in 7. Guess he is going to lean to the Pacers taking two in a row again on us. How predictable.

I love watching Charles.....but boy does he hate the Heat with a known passion (as most of the country).

 

[Cliff Clavin]

They do though. They should have spent a large portion of the season running everything through Bynum and Gasol... The Spurs are getting get production for their role players because they are allowed to play and have great leadership from their coach and their star players; something the Lakers do not have.

Sound simple enough. Problem is the Laker role players suck. They can't make entry passes, it's painful to watch them try. They can't shoot. There's no comparison to the cast Howard had - the Magic guys were infinitely more skilled on offense. I know you want to blame Kobe for the world's ills, but you can't blame him for everything that's wrong with the Lakers. They just don't have anywhere near enough talent across the roster to compete for a championship right now. When Steve Blake is far and away the best sub you've got, you're in trouble. They got exactly where I expected them to get with the talent they have. Expecting more from this group is silly.

I blame the coaching just as much as Kobe. If you can't teach a guy to throw an entry pass, you have some atrocious coaches.And with young role players (Goudelock and Ebanks), you have to be prepared for mistakes. Give them some burn during the regular season and accept it. You can't have your star player scowling at them every time they screw up.

 

[tommyGunZ]

They do though. They should have spent a large portion of the season running everything through Bynum and Gasol... The Spurs are getting get production for their role players because they are allowed to play and have great leadership from their coach and their star players; something the Lakers do not have.

Sound simple enough. Problem is the Laker role players suck. They can't make entry passes, it's painful to watch them try. They can't shoot. There's no comparison to the cast Howard had - the Magic guys were infinitely more skilled on offense. I know you want to blame Kobe for the world's ills, but you can't blame him for everything that's wrong with the Lakers. They just don't have anywhere near enough talent across the roster to compete for a championship right now. When Steve Blake is far and away the best sub you've got, you're in trouble. They got exactly where I expected them to get with the talent they have. Expecting more from this group is silly.

I blame the coaching just as much as Kobe. If you can't teach a guy to throw an entry pass, you have some atrocious coaches.And with young role players (Goudelock and Ebanks), you have to be prepared for mistakes. Give them some burn during the regular season and accept it. You can't have your star player scowling at them every time they screw up.

It's amazing that the Lakers problems are so glaringly obvious and easily fixable, yet the brilliant basketball minds that have put lots of championship banners in the rafters can't figure it out, but Cliff from the internet can.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

They do though. They should have spent a large portion of the season running everything through Bynum and Gasol... The Spurs are getting get production for their role players because they are allowed to play and have great leadership from their coach and their star players; something the Lakers do not have.

Sound simple enough. Problem is the Laker role players suck. They can't make entry passes, it's painful to watch them try. They can't shoot. There's no comparison to the cast Howard had - the Magic guys were infinitely more skilled on offense. I know you want to blame Kobe for the world's ills, but you can't blame him for everything that's wrong with the Lakers. They just don't have anywhere near enough talent across the roster to compete for a championship right now. When Steve Blake is far and away the best sub you've got, you're in trouble. They got exactly where I expected them to get with the talent they have. Expecting more from this group is silly.

I blame the coaching just as much as Kobe. If you can't teach a guy to throw an entry pass, you have some atrocious coaches.And with young role players (Goudelock and Ebanks), you have to be prepared for mistakes. Give them some burn during the regular season and accept it. You can't have your star player scowling at them every time they screw up.

It's amazing that the Lakers problems are so glaringly obvious and easily fixable, yet the brilliant basketball minds that have put lots of championship banners in the rafters can't figure it out, but Cliff from the internet can.

 

[tommyGunZ]

They do though. They should have spent a large portion of the season running everything through Bynum and Gasol...

The Spurs are getting get production for their role players because they are allowed to play and have great leadership from their coach and their star players; something the Lakers do not have.

Sound simple enough. Problem is the Laker role players suck. They can't make entry passes, it's painful to watch them try. They can't shoot. There's no comparison to the cast Howard had - the Magic guys were infinitely more skilled on offense. I know you want to blame Kobe for the world's ills, but you can't blame him for everything that's wrong with the Lakers. They just don't have anywhere near enough talent across the roster to compete for a championship right now. When Steve Blake is far and away the best sub you've got, you're in trouble. They got exactly where I expected them to get with the talent they have. Expecting more from this group is silly.

Those two attributes in bold are directly related. It becomes extremely hard to make entry passes when your defender doesn't respect your jumpshot. Despite what you've read from Clifford-the-Big-Red-GM, NBA defenses are far too good and complex for the "just throw it in to the big guys" offense.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

They do though. They should have spent a large portion of the season running everything through Bynum and Gasol...

The Spurs are getting get production for their role players because they are allowed to play and have great leadership from their coach and their star players; something the Lakers do not have.

Sound simple enough. Problem is the Laker role players suck. They can't make entry passes, it's painful to watch them try. They can't shoot. There's no comparison to the cast Howard had - the Magic guys were infinitely more skilled on offense. I know you want to blame Kobe for the world's ills, but you can't blame him for everything that's wrong with the Lakers. They just don't have anywhere near enough talent across the roster to compete for a championship right now. When Steve Blake is far and away the best sub you've got, you're in trouble. They got exactly where I expected them to get with the talent they have. Expecting more from this group is silly.

Those two attributes in bold are directly related. It becomes extremely hard to make entry passes when your defender doesn't respect your jumpshot. Despite what you've read from Clifford-the-Big-Red-GM, NBA defenses are far too good and complex for the "just throw it in to the big guys" offense.

Hm. I guess you're right. They should continue with the "ignore the two great big men and let Kobe chuck away" strategy. Works fantastic

 

[Gr00vus]

They do though. They should have spent a large portion of the season running everything through Bynum and Gasol...

The Spurs are getting get production for their role players because they are allowed to play and have great leadership from their coach and their star players; something the Lakers do not have.

Sound simple enough. Problem is the Laker role players suck. They can't make entry passes, it's painful to watch them try. They can't shoot. There's no comparison to the cast Howard had - the Magic guys were infinitely more skilled on offense. I know you want to blame Kobe for the world's ills, but you can't blame him for everything that's wrong with the Lakers. They just don't have anywhere near enough talent across the roster to compete for a championship right now. When Steve Blake is far and away the best sub you've got, you're in trouble. They got exactly where I expected them to get with the talent they have. Expecting more from this group is silly.

Those two attributes in bold are directly related. It becomes extremely hard to make entry passes when your defender doesn't respect your jumpshot. Despite what you've read from Clifford-the-Big-Red-GM, NBA defenses are far too good and complex for the "just throw it in to the big guys" offense.

I agree in part, but there are too many occasions where they have actual passing lanes and they can't deliver the ball for me to blame it entirely on good defense. Passing is really a lost art in today's NBA. Expecting Mike Brown to coach guys like World Peace into becoming good passers at this stage of their careers is laughable.

 

[Gr00vus]

More importantly, for next year can we have a neutral party running the NBA thread? I enjoy Skribbles's bitter banter as much as anyone, but he's had his fun and it's time to move on. Kev? Spears? No16? Polar? Anybody? Who's stepping up?

 

[matuski]

More importantly, for next year can we have a neutral party running the NBA thread? I enjoy Skribbles's bitter banter as much as anyone, but he's had his fun and it's time to move on. Kev? Spears? No16? Polar? Anybody? Who's stepping up?

 

[tommyGunZ]

They do though. They should have spent a large portion of the season running everything through Bynum and Gasol...

The Spurs are getting get production for their role players because they are allowed to play and have great leadership from their coach and their star players; something the Lakers do not have.

Sound simple enough. Problem is the Laker role players suck. They can't make entry passes, it's painful to watch them try. They can't shoot. There's no comparison to the cast Howard had - the Magic guys were infinitely more skilled on offense. I know you want to blame Kobe for the world's ills, but you can't blame him for everything that's wrong with the Lakers. They just don't have anywhere near enough talent across the roster to compete for a championship right now. When Steve Blake is far and away the best sub you've got, you're in trouble. They got exactly where I expected them to get with the talent they have. Expecting more from this group is silly.

Those two attributes in bold are directly related. It becomes extremely hard to make entry passes when your defender doesn't respect your jumpshot. Despite what you've read from Clifford-the-Big-Red-GM, NBA defenses are far too good and complex for the "just throw it in to the big guys" offense.

Hm. I guess you're right. They should continue with the "ignore the two great big men and let Kobe chuck away" strategy. Works fantastic

You're right, the Lakers strategy has been extremely successful in the 5 seasons Pau has been a Laker. 2 Titles, 1 Finals Loss, and 2 2nd round exits. Since Pau arrived, they have been THE most successful team in the NBA over that span.If only they were more like your Raptors.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

They do though. They should have spent a large portion of the season running everything through Bynum and Gasol...

The Spurs are getting get production for their role players because they are allowed to play and have great leadership from their coach and their star players; something the Lakers do not have.

Sound simple enough. Problem is the Laker role players suck. They can't make entry passes, it's painful to watch them try. They can't shoot. There's no comparison to the cast Howard had - the Magic guys were infinitely more skilled on offense. I know you want to blame Kobe for the world's ills, but you can't blame him for everything that's wrong with the Lakers. They just don't have anywhere near enough talent across the roster to compete for a championship right now. When Steve Blake is far and away the best sub you've got, you're in trouble. They got exactly where I expected them to get with the talent they have. Expecting more from this group is silly.

Those two attributes in bold are directly related. It becomes extremely hard to make entry passes when your defender doesn't respect your jumpshot. Despite what you've read from Clifford-the-Big-Red-GM, NBA defenses are far too good and complex for the "just throw it in to the big guys" offense.

Hm. I guess you're right. They should continue with the "ignore the two great big men and let Kobe chuck away" strategy. Works fantastic

You're right, the Lakers strategy has been extremely successful in the 5 seasons Pau has been a Laker. 2 Titles, 1 Finals Loss, and 2 2nd round exits. Since Pau arrived, they have been THE most successful team in the NBA over that span.

Why stop there? May as well include the years where Shaq carried the team!

 

[EYLive]

More importantly, for next year can we have a neutral party running the NBA thread? I enjoy Skribbles's bitter banter as much as anyone, but he's had his fun and it's time to move on. Kev? Spears? No16? Polar? Anybody? Who's stepping up?

Just start one now and bump it in the fall. Some people's lives revolve around being jelous of cities and teams that are better than their own. Thank goodness for the ignore function.

 

[matuski]

More importantly, for next year can we have a neutral party running the NBA thread? I enjoy Skribbles's bitter banter as much as anyone, but he's had his fun and it's time to move on. Kev? Spears? No16? Polar? Anybody? Who's stepping up?

Just start one now and bump it in the fall. Some people's lives revolve around being jelous of cities and teams that are better than their own. Thank goodness for the ignore function.

In all these years ive never used it.. but it is tempting. The obsessive hate of Kobe has seen its best days.

 

[timschochet]

More importantly, for next year can we have a neutral party running the NBA thread? I enjoy Skribbles's bitter banter as much as anyone, but he's had his fun and it's time to move on. Kev? Spears? No16? Polar? Anybody? Who's stepping up?

Who cares who runs it?