*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (8 Viewers)

[pizzatyme]

As a Pacers fan I am hesitant to put George in the top 5. I think he certainly deserves to be top 10 and that's a nice accomplishment.

I do know that at this point, I wouldn't trade him for any other wing, all things considered.

 

[tommyGunZ]

George is the third best player in the league.

No he isn't.

Chris Paul in your opinion? Or you have him higher?

Paul, Love and Cousins for sure. Then good arguments could be made for Davis, Aldridge, Curry and maybe even Horford or Dirk.

He's definitely the 3rd best wing.

So let me get this straight Love averages 4 rebounds, and 1 assist more than Melo but he is definitely in the conversation for 3rd best but Melo doesn't even crack top 10?

A 44% difference in their rebound rates is kind of a big deal. Not to mention Love is the better the scorer as well.

Love gets the benefit of playing with Rubio while Melo gets Felton, Udrih, and Prigioni (one is slightly better) and only leads Melo by .021% FG pct while Melo averages a point more a game. Furthermore Melo gets all kind of flak saying he cant lead his team to a championship and yet you are calling Love and Cousins the 3rd best player in the league and they haven't even led their team to a playoff berth. I realize the West is tougher conference but Melo led the Nuggets to the playoffs EVERY year he was there.

Cliff is allergic to players who have elite talent and are able to get their own shots. Hence his constant harping against Melo and his overrating of players who benefit from Princeton style offenses.

 

[tommyGunZ]

As a Pacers fan I am hesitant to put George in the top 5. I think he certainly deserves to be top 10 and that's a nice accomplishment.

I do know that at this point, I wouldn't trade him for any other wing, all things considered.

You wouldn't trade him for kD or leBron?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Love gets the benefit of playing with Rubio while Melo gets Felton, Udrih, and Prigioni (one is slightly better) and only leads Melo by .021% FG pct while Melo averages a point more a game. Furthermore Melo gets all kind of flak saying he cant lead his team to a championship and yet you are calling Love and Cousins the 3rd best player in the league and they haven't even led their team to a playoff berth. I realize the West is tougher conference but Melo led the Nuggets to the playoffs EVERY year he was there.

Rubio is pretty terrible. He's getting benched in the 4th in favour of JJ Barea. Yes, benched for JJ Barea. In no way is having Rubio a benefit for Love. Yeah, the Knicks terrible trio have probably been slightly worse than Rubio but they've all been so bad that it really isn't worth mentioning.

Saying one player is better than another (or 3rd best in the league) has zero to do with leading a team to a championship. You can search back in this thread where someone (Kev?) brought up this exact same argument and I showed how freaking terrible the TWovles teams have been compared to anything Melo has played on.

If the argument was 'rank the top guys would most likely lead you to a title' the rankings would likely be much different. Ranking who you think is "best" is completely subjective. I rank guys like Cousins or Love ahead of chuckers like Melo because of their elite rebounding and their efficient scoring. Others obviously have different opinions. If someone thinks that George's on ball defence outweighs the elite rebounding one of those guys brings, we'd just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Abraham]

Asik and jones for melo?

 

[tommyGunZ]

Cliff - you see the starting lineups this AM? That's not a typo - Ryan Kelly is the starting PF for the Lakers today.

Tank tank tank

 

[tommyGunZ]

Asik and jones for melo?

Jones was a monster last night.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Cliff - you see the starting lineups this AM? That's not a typo - Ryan Kelly is the starting PF for the Lakers today.

Tank tank tank

It could get real ugly...

 

[Abraham]

Asik and jones for melo?

Jones was a monster last night.

He's really getting good, mostly because he knows how to move to the hoop without the ball.

 

[Abraham]

Cliff - you see the starting lineups this AM? That's not a typo - Ryan Kelly is the starting PF for the Lakers today.

Tank tank tank

Why aren't they trading Pau for something, anything? Trade him for a couple second round picks.

 

[sports_fan]

What is the advanced stats story on Cousins? I see the big counting stats.

He strikes me as an overrated guy, but we rarely see him on TV up here.

Excellent rebounder. Rebound percentages are near the top of the league. Scoring efficiency was well below average his first two seasons, about average last season and now it's above average. He not strictly a volume scorer anymore. Way too many turnovers for a big though. Turnovers and poor defense keep him from being an elite player IMO.

 

[No. 16]

George is the third best player in the league.

No he isn't.

Chris Paul in your opinion? Or you have him higher?

Paul, Love and Cousins for sure. Then good arguments could be made for Davis, Aldridge, Curry and maybe even Horford or Dirk.

He's definitely the 3rd best wing.

Aside from Paul, George I'd the only one on that list that plays both ends of the floor at an elite level...for sure in the top 5.

I'd say some of his "elite" defence is a little inflated because he plays on an elite defensive team. Don't get me wrong, I do think he is a very good defender, but playing for Indy makes everyone look like they belong on first team all-D.

Does George's D make up for his lack of elite rebounding when comparing him to Love or Cousins?

Maybe they're an elite defensive team because they have Paul George(not taking anything away from Hibbert)?

On a ranking of basketball skills...On the ball defense/team defense ability rates higher than rebounding for me. It's a lot easier to replace rebounding than it is to replace a defensive ace.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

What is the advanced stats story on Cousins? I see the big counting stats.

He strikes me as an overrated guy, but we rarely see him on TV up here.

Excellent rebounder. Rebound percentages are near the top of the league. Scoring efficiency was well below average his first two seasons, about average last season and now it's above average. He not strictly a volume scorer anymore. Way too many turnovers for a big though. Turnovers and poor defense keep him from being an elite player IMO.

His turnovers are right in-line with other 'elite' bigs like Howard, Hibbert, Noah, Chandler, Duncan, etc.

 

[Premier]

Cousins

 

[pizzatyme]

As a Pacers fan I am hesitant to put George in

the top 5. I think he certainly deserves to be top 10 and that's a nice accomplishment.

I do know that at this point, I wouldn't trade him for any other wing, all things considered.

You wouldn't trade him for kD or leBron?

Neither.

 

[sports_fan]

What is the advanced stats story on Cousins? I see the big counting stats.

He strikes me as an overrated guy, but we rarely see him on TV up here.

Excellent rebounder. Rebound percentages are near the top of the league. Scoring efficiency was well below average his first two seasons, about average last season and now it's above average. He not strictly a volume scorer anymore. Way too many turnovers for a big though. Turnovers and poor defense keep him from being an elite player IMO.

His turnovers are right in-line with other 'elite' bigs like Howard, Hibbert, Noah, Chandler, Duncan, etc.

No. Cousins's TOV per 36 are 22% higher than anyone else you mentioned.

Turnovers Per 36 Minutes:

Cousins - 3.8

Howard - 3.1

Hibbert - 2.3

Noah - 2.1

Chandler - 1.9

Duncan - 2.6

Average TOV per 36 for a center this year is 2.2. Cousins is way above that.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Maybe they're an elite defensive team because they have Paul George(not taking anything away from Hibbert)?

On a ranking of basketball skills...On the ball defense/team defense ability rates higher than rebounding for me. It's a lot easier to replace rebounding than it is to replace a defensive ace.

Very possible. I just haven't been blown away by his defence when I've watched. I think that any SF you plug in there is going to be a better defender because of the team around him and the effort those guys (Indy) put in on a nightly basis. Compared to a guy like Josh Smith for example. Elite defender... when he wants to be. One night he'll look like DPOY, the next he'll look like Steve Novak.

I don't think either (D or rebounding) are that difficult to replace on their own. Getting them replaced with a player who can also contribute elsewhere is the problem.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

What is the advanced stats story on Cousins? I see the big counting stats.

He strikes me as an overrated guy, but we rarely see him on TV up here.

Excellent rebounder. Rebound percentages are near the top of the league. Scoring efficiency was well below average his first two seasons, about average last season and now it's above average. He not strictly a volume scorer anymore. Way too many turnovers for a big though. Turnovers and poor defense keep him from being an elite player IMO.

His turnovers are right in-line with other 'elite' bigs like Howard, Hibbert, Noah, Chandler, Duncan, etc.

No. Cousins's TOV per 36 are 22% higher than anyone else you mentioned.Turnovers Per 36 Minutes:

Cousins - 3.8

Howard - 3.1

Hibbert - 2.3

Noah - 2.1

Chandler - 1.9

Duncan - 2.6

Average TOV per 36 for a center this year is 2.2. Cousins is way above that.

Turnover ratio. Middle of the pack for centers who average over 20 MPG.

 

[Short Corner]

Cliff - you see the starting lineups this AM? That's not a typo - Ryan Kelly is the starting PF for the Lakers today.

Tank tank tank

Why aren't they trading Pau for something, anything? Trade him for a couple second round picks.

To who? Most teams willing to rent him can't just take on salary.

 

[Abraham]

What about for centers with 30+ % usage? He's a turnover machine.

 

[GroveDiesel]

As a Pacers fan I am hesitant to put George in

the top 5. I think he certainly deserves to be top 10 and that's a nice accomplishment.

I do know that at this point, I wouldn't trade him for any other wing, all things considered.

You wouldn't trade him for kD or leBron?

Neither.

Stop it. I'm a Pacers fan and that's just stupid. I can't stand Lebron, but I'd trade George for him in a heartbeat.

 

[pizzatyme]

As a Pacers fan I am hesitant to put George in

the top 5. I think he certainly deserves to be top

10 and that's a nice accomplishment.

I do know that at this point, I wouldn't trade him for any other wing, all things considered.

You wouldn't trade him for kD or leBron?

Neither.

Stop it. I'm a Pacers fan and that's just stupid. I can't stand Lebron, but I'd trade George for him in a heartbeat.

That's you. If the Pacers trade for LeBron, it changes the entire dynamic of their team. LeBron doesn't play the defense George does. And LeBron would overshadow every other player. That's not the case with PG. This Pacers team is balanced and any number of players can shine on a given night. That wouldn't be the case with LeBron in the house. So, call me stupid all you want, I'll stick with PG.

 

[thecatch]

The grantland discussion and analysis about love is interesting with regard to his rebounding being so good because he willingly avoids defense to get in rebound position. There is a good argument to be made that keeping the other team from another chance at shooting is worth the trade off.

But I greatly disagree with the idea that George's defense is enhanced because of the team he is on. That's kind of the point and is akin to dying Scottie was a great defender because he only had to guard the opponents second best player, etc. It's a team game and no player can defend the court by themselves.

Cousins is very very good and still has room to improve, but there is not a gm in the league that would take him over Paul George.

George is a great defender but Hibbert makes him look even better. Hard to see how anyone could dispute that. Having a rim protector limits an offensive player's options in a big way.

 

[Abraham]

As a Pacers fan I am hesitant to put George in

the top 5. I think he certainly deserves to be top

10 and that's a nice accomplishment.

I do know that at this point, I wouldn't trade him for any other wing, all things considered.

You wouldn't trade him for kD or leBron?

Neither.

Stop it. I'm a Pacers fan and that's just stupid. I can't stand Lebron, but I'd trade George for him in a heartbeat.

That's you. If the Pacers trade for LeBron, it changes the entire dynamic of their team. LeBron doesn't play the defense George does. And LeBron would overshadow every other player. That's not the case with PG. This Pacers team is balanced and any number of players can shine on a given night. That wouldn't be the case with LeBron in the house. So, call me stupid all you want, I'll stick with PG.

What are you talking about? Lebron is the best defender in the league.

 

[pizzatyme]

As a Pacers fan I am hesitant to put George in

the top 5. I think he certainly deserves to be top

10 and that's a nice accomplishment.

I do know that at this point, I wouldn't trade him for any other wing, all things considered.

You wouldn't trade him for kD or leBron?

Neither.

Stop it. I'm a Pacers fan and that's just stupid. I can't stand Lebron, but I'd trade George for him in a heartbeat.

That's you. If the Pacers trade for LeBron, it changes the entire dynamic of their team. LeBron doesn't play the defense George does. And LeBron would overshadow every other player. That's not the case with PG. This Pacers team is balanced and any number of players can shine on a given night. That wouldn't be the case with LeBron in the house. So, call me stupid all you want, I'll stick with PG.

What are you talking about? Lebron is the best defender in the league.

When he wants to. He isn't going to play 48 minutes of Defense the way he'd have to in Indiana.

 

[Short Corner]

As a Pacers fan I am hesitant to put George in

the top 5. I think he certainly deserves to be top

10 and that's a nice accomplishment.

I do know that at this point, I wouldn't trade him for any other wing, all things considered.

You wouldn't trade him for kD or leBron?

Neither.

Stop it. I'm a Pacers fan and that's just stupid. I can't stand Lebron, but I'd trade George for him in a heartbeat.

That's you. If the Pacers trade for LeBron, it changes the entire dynamic of their team. LeBron doesn't play the defense George does. And LeBron would overshadow every other player. That's not the case with PG. This Pacers team is balanced and any number of players can shine on a given night. That wouldn't be the case with LeBron in the house.So, call me stupid all you want, I'll stick with PG.

What are you talking about? Lebron is the best defender in the league.

And he is damn good facilitator offensively

 

[Short Corner]

As a Pacers fan I am hesitant to put George in

the top 5. I think he certainly deserves to be top

10 and that's a nice accomplishment.

I do know that at this point, I wouldn't trade him for any other wing, all things considered.

You wouldn't trade him for kD or leBron?

Neither.

Stop it. I'm a Pacers fanand that's just stupid. I can't stand Lebron, but I'd trade George for him in a heartbeat.

That's you. If the Pacers trade for LeBron, it changes the entire dynamic of their team. LeBron doesn't play the defense George does. And LeBron would overshadow every other player. That's not the case with PG. This Pacers team is balanced and any number of players can shine on a given night. That wouldn't be the case with LeBron in the house.So, call me stupid all you want, I'll stick with PG.

What are you talking about? Lebron is the best defender in the league.

When he wants to. He isn't going to play 48 minutes of Defense the way he'd have to in Indiana.

It's like you've never seen him play

 

[pizzatyme]

Like I said, for this Pacers team, I'd take George over LeBron.

 

[Abraham]

As a Pacers fan I am hesitant to put George in

the top 5. I think he certainly deserves to be top

10 and that's a nice accomplishment.

I do know that at this point, I wouldn't trade him for any other wing, all things considered.

You wouldn't trade him for kD or leBron?

Neither.

Stop it. I'm a Pacers fan and that's just stupid. I can't stand Lebron, but I'd trade George for him in a heartbeat.

That's you. If the Pacers trade for LeBron, it changes the entire dynamic of their team. LeBron doesn't play the defense George does. And LeBron would overshadow every other player. That's not the case with PG. This Pacers team is balanced and any number of players can shine on a given night. That wouldn't be the case with LeBron in the house. So, call me stupid all you want, I'll stick with PG.

What are you talking about? Lebron is the best defender in the league.

When he wants to. He isn't going to play 48 minutes of Defense the way he'd have to in Indiana.

My goodness.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

What about for centers with 30+ % usage? He's a turnover machine.

Well there aren't any other centers with that high of usage. Compare his TO ratio to any elite center over the years and you won't find that Cousin's sticks out.

Using BRs turnover %, Cousins is at 13.9 this season.

Hakeem: 13.1

Shaq: 11.9

Robinson: 11.9

Ming: 14.5

Howard: 16.8

Duncan: 12.2

Kareem: 13.4

Just used career numbers for those guys. In their primes, most were lower than their career averages obviously. Cousins' career average is a lot higher but that should be expected to come down over the next few years.

*In no way am I saying Cousins is as good as those guys. Just using them for big man turnover reference.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Cliff - you see the starting lineups this AM? That's not a typo - Ryan Kelly is the starting PF for the Lakers today.

Tank tank tank

It could get real ugly...

Or the Raptors could get sucked into playing LAs game and it could be tight.

 

[pizzatyme]

As a Pacers fan I am hesitant to put George in

the top 5. I think he certainly deserves to be top

10 and that's a nice accomplishment.

I do know that at this point, I wouldn't trade him for any other wing, all things considered.

You wouldn't trade him for kD or leBron?

Neither.

Stop it. I'm a Pacers fanand that's just stupid. I can't stand Lebron, but I'd trade George for him in a heartbeat.

That's you. If the Pacers trade for LeBron, it changes the entire dynamic of their team. LeBron doesn't play the defense George does. And LeBron would overshadow every other player. That's not the case with PG. This Pacers team is balanced and any number of players can shine on a given night. That wouldn't be the case with LeBron in the house.So, call me stupid all you want, I'll stick with PG.

What are you talking about? Lebron is the best defender in the league.

When he wants to. He isn't going to play 48 minutes of Defense the way he'd have to in Indiana.

My goodness.

Since we're speculating and all.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Jesus Christ the East is awful.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Jesus Christ the East is awful.

Derozan and Casey served that one up on a platter.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Jesus Christ the East is awful.

Derozan and Casey served that one up on a platter.

We're trying to lose. It's like walking a batter when he's trying to bunt a guy over to 2nd. Inexcusable.

 

[No. 16]

Warriors vs Pacers tonight. Excited.

 

[pollardsvision]

Nice. Bobcats just blew a bazillion point lead.

On the plus side, Charlotte Hornets gear is now officially on sale.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

These don't get old.

 

[sports_fan]

Free trial for NBA League Pass through the 26th

 

[Abraham]

Rockets pounding the blazers. 71 at the half.

 

[Abraham]

Dwight just missed a dunk over Lopez that would have brought the rim down. Good grief.

This is a different team with Beverly running the point.

 

[sports_fan]

Miami upsets Charlotte as Drummond scores 25

 

[Abraham]

How ticked off is Kobe As he watches nick young do what he normally does?

 

[saintfool]

How ticked off is Kobe As he watches nick young do what he normally does?

you mean rape a woman, franchise and/or city?

 

[GroveDiesel]

The officiating in the Pacers/Warriors game has been awful both ways. Guys get hammered with no call and then a ticky tack bump is suddenly called. Total joke.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Chuck says "Steph can really stroke it. Gonna take him to Target".

 

[pizzatyme]

The floor was a big story in the Pacers/Warriors game. WTH with it being like ice? Players for both teams falling and risking injury. The announcers were blaming it on the NBA decals, but I think it was something else like too much gloss on the floor. Good grief!

Oh and Go Pacers! Good win. Curry is amazing!!!

 

[Slapdash]

The floor was a big story in the Pacers/Warriors game. WTH with it being like ice? Players for both teams falling and risking injury. The announcers were blaming it on the NBA decals, but I think it was something else like too much gloss on the floor. Good grief!

Oh and Go Pacers! Good win. Curry is amazing!!!

Pretty sure Crawford put ice on the floor to help out the Lebron 3-peat.

 

[Abraham]

Chandler Parsons AMA on Reddit this afternoon.

 

[pizzatyme]

The floor was a big story in the Pacers/Warriors game. WTH with it being like ice? Players for both teams falling and risking injury. The announcers were blaming it on the NBA decals, but I think it was something else like too much

gloss on the floor. Good grief!

Oh and Go Pacers! Good win. Curry is amazing!!!

Pretty sure Crawford put ice on the floor to help out the Lebron 3-peat.

That's hilarious. Do you do stand-up?