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So you're saying that contrary to popular opinion, Phil Jackson actually had a really hard job to do and performed admirably, according to a book by Phil Jackson?Also, I remember the argument back when Phil Jackson was the Lakers coach with Kobe and Shaq. "Of course he's a great coach, he's had top stars there and in Chicago. How can you go wrong." Well if you've read Phil's book, it wasn't so easy dealing with the huge egos who were more about me than the we. Getting the star to share the ball and have confident in other players even if they are great ones was difficult.
Uh, I don't really have a top ten. Just assuming that Spoelstra would be in there. Way too subjective and you'd have to watch a ridiculous amount of a team to get a feel for how much of an impact their coach has.who is in your top 10?Nope. Top ten for sure though
Not trying to convince you or anyone. JMO. Read the book to get his take on what it was like to coach great teams and how he did it. I like his thinking on spirituality as well which was also a key to getting folks to gel better.So you're saying that contrary to popular opinion, Phil Jackson actually had a really hard job to do and performed admirably, according to a book by Phil Jackson?Also, I remember the argument back when Phil Jackson was the Lakers coach with Kobe and Shaq. "Of course he's a great coach, he's had top stars there and in Chicago. How can you go wrong." Well if you've read Phil's book, it wasn't so easy dealing with the huge egos who were more about me than the we. Getting the star to share the ball and have confident in other players even if they are great ones was difficult.
Well I'm convinced.
i think it's hard to imagine that a guy on the verge of his 4th-straight finals and with back-to-back finals wins is not one of the top 5 currently.Uh, I don't really have a top ten. Just assuming that Spoelstra would be in there. Way too subjective and you'd have to watch a ridiculous amount of a team to get a feel for how much of an impact their coach has.who is in your top 10?Nope. Top ten for sure though
Ellipsis (plural ellipses; from the Ancient Greek: ἔλλειψις, élleipsis, "omission" or "falling short") is a series of dots that usually indicates an intentional omission of a word, sentence, or whole section from a text without altering its original meaning.[1]Depending on their context and placement in a sentence, ellipses can also indicate an unfinished thought, a slight pause, and nervous or awkward silence. Aposiopesis is the use of an ellipsis to trail off into silence—for example: "But I thought he was . . ."When placed at the beginning or end of a sentence, the ellipsis can also inspire a feeling of melancholy or longing.
Agree. Great players help but coach is just as important. You can have great players and still not be successful. I remember the volatile relationship between Kobe and Shaq laundry being aired. Both wanted to be king and hated each other. Have fun dealing with that.i think it's hard to imagine that a guy on the verge of his 4th-straight finals and with back-to-back finals wins is not one of the top 5 currently.Uh, I don't really have a top ten. Just assuming that Spoelstra would be in there. Way too subjective and you'd have to watch a ridiculous amount of a team to get a feel for how much of an impact their coach has.who is in your top 10?Nope. Top ten for sure though
I appreciate the fact that he has the best player(s), but he worked like crazy analyzing film for useful info and was then able to translate that into on-court success, all the while managing superstars. Very challenging and he's had great success.
And that's where the subjective part comes in. Is coaching LeBron, Wade and Bosh to a title more impressive than Hornacheck or Thibs taking a bunch of scrubs far above expectations?
What have we ever seen Phil Jackson do without Jordan/Pippen or Kobe/Shaq?
Very easy to find articles describing Spoelstra's history with film review. Here are just 2.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/columns/story?page=Spoelstra-110601
I have no doubt that he's very good at what he did, but I personally can't consider him among the all time greats limited scope of his responsibilities. He did very little w/r/t personnel since his teams were mostly ready-made and he had Tex Winter doing a good bit of the Xs and Os for him. Compare that to a guy like Pop or Rick Carlisle or Chuck Daly. For all we know the guys on their teams are/were also pains in the #### and they manage that in addition to their other roles.Not trying to convince you or anyone. JMO. Read the book to get his take on what it was like to coach great teams and how he did it. I like his thinking on spirituality as well which was also a key to getting folks to gel better.So you're saying that contrary to popular opinion, Phil Jackson actually had a really hard job to do and performed admirably, according to a book by Phil Jackson?Also, I remember the argument back when Phil Jackson was the Lakers coach with Kobe and Shaq. "Of course he's a great coach, he's had top stars there and in Chicago. How can you go wrong." Well if you've read Phil's book, it wasn't so easy dealing with the huge egos who were more about me than the we. Getting the star to share the ball and have confident in other players even if they are great ones was difficult.
Well I'm convinced.
Well then let's just not have the best coaches list since we don't know exactly who did what and how difficult any player was on any team. Just leave it as best team as obviously it takes a team to become what it is.I have no doubt that he's very good at what he did, but I personally can't consider him among the all time greats limited scope of his responsibilities. He did very little w/r/t personnel since his teams were mostly ready-made and he had Tex Winter doing a good bit of the Xs and Os for him. Compare that to a guy like Pop or Rick Carlisle or Chuck Daly. For all we know the guys on their teams are/were also pains in the #### and they manage that in addition to their other roles.Not trying to convince you or anyone. JMO. Read the book to get his take on what it was like to coach great teams and how he did it. I like his thinking on spirituality as well which was also a key to getting folks to gel better.So you're saying that contrary to popular opinion, Phil Jackson actually had a really hard job to do and performed admirably, according to a book by Phil Jackson?Also, I remember the argument back when Phil Jackson was the Lakers coach with Kobe and Shaq. "Of course he's a great coach, he's had top stars there and in Chicago. How can you go wrong." Well if you've read Phil's book, it wasn't so easy dealing with the huge egos who were more about me than the we. Getting the star to share the ball and have confident in other players even if they are great ones was difficult.
Well I'm convinced.
Or, you know, we can just all have our own opinions and enjoy talking about basketball when we discuss them.CurlyNight said:Well then let's just not have the best coaches list since we don't know exactly who did what and how difficult any player was on any team. Just leave it as best team as obviously it takes a team to become what it is.TobiasFunke said:I have no doubt that he's very good at what he did, but I personally can't consider him among the all time greats limited scope of his responsibilities. He did very little w/r/t personnel since his teams were mostly ready-made and he had Tex Winter doing a good bit of the Xs and Os for him. Compare that to a guy like Pop or Rick Carlisle or Chuck Daly. For all we know the guys on their teams are/were also pains in the #### and they manage that in addition to their other roles.CurlyNight said:Not trying to convince you or anyone. JMO. Read the book to get his take on what it was like to coach great teams and how he did it. I like his thinking on spirituality as well which was also a key to getting folks to gel better.TobiasFunke said:So you're saying that contrary to popular opinion, Phil Jackson actually had a really hard job to do and performed admirably, according to a book by Phil Jackson?CurlyNight said:Also, I remember the argument back when Phil Jackson was the Lakers coach with Kobe and Shaq. "Of course he's a great coach, he's had top stars there and in Chicago. How can you go wrong." Well if you've read Phil's book, it wasn't so easy dealing with the huge egos who were more about me than the we. Getting the star to share the ball and have confident in other players even if they are great ones was difficult.
Well I'm convinced.
So is that more/better than all the hard work every other coach in the league puts in?Long Ball Larry said:
That too.Or, you know, we can just all have our own opinions and enjoy talking about basketball when we discuss them.CurlyNight said:Well then let's just not have the best coaches list since we don't know exactly who did what and how difficult any player was on any team. Just leave it as best team as obviously it takes a team to become what it is.TobiasFunke said:I have no doubt that he's very good at what he did, but I personally can't consider him among the all time greats limited scope of his responsibilities. He did very little w/r/t personnel since his teams were mostly ready-made and he had Tex Winter doing a good bit of the Xs and Os for him. Compare that to a guy like Pop or Rick Carlisle or Chuck Daly. For all we know the guys on their teams are/were also pains in the #### and they manage that in addition to their other roles.CurlyNight said:Not trying to convince you or anyone. JMO. Read the book to get his take on what it was like to coach great teams and how he did it. I like his thinking on spirituality as well which was also a key to getting folks to gel better.TobiasFunke said:So you're saying that contrary to popular opinion, Phil Jackson actually had a really hard job to do and performed admirably, according to a book by Phil Jackson?CurlyNight said:Also, I remember the argument back when Phil Jackson was the Lakers coach with Kobe and Shaq. "Of course he's a great coach, he's had top stars there and in Chicago. How can you go wrong." Well if you've read Phil's book, it wasn't so easy dealing with the huge egos who were more about me than the we. Getting the star to share the ball and have confident in other players even if they are great ones was difficult.
Well I'm convinced.
Your stream of consciousness posts honestly make it difficult to read. But see, here you qualify your statement as one of the best defensive teams. I think Miami is one of the better defensive teams and would go as far to say that their defensive rating is a bit misleading b/c they coasted in the regular season but to call them and the Spurs the best is just flat homerism. Maybe I'm taking one sentence or two out of context but I just hate homerism that thinks everything their team does is great.
I can certainly appreciate that, and Stevens is certainly a super-smart guy.
I'm not interested in trying to rank coaches based on completely subjective criteria. My reasoning for him being "top 10" is because his team is/have been performing up to expectations. Just because he is winning championships doesn't mean he is better than a guy like Thibs who is stuck with a bunch scrubs.
ok man. yet somehow you are adamant that he is a top 10 coach, but not top 5, but you don't know who the coaches that are better than him are, just that there at least 9 who might be.
It really doesn't matter to me. I just think that he is probably underrated in general because Lebron gets so much attention, that he has achieve results that few in NBA history have, and he has been able to combine technical analysis with people management in an impressive way.
I'm with you. As you say it's hard to judge because they were clearly coasting in the regular season, but I've said a couple times I don't think this Heat team is on par defensively with the versions of the last few years, mostly because Allen gets harder to hide and Battier becomes less of a defensive asset as they get older and older- same goes for Wade too of course, although who knows with him since he's more well-rested than pretty much any key player in the playoffs. I think they might actually be better offensively than in previous seasons because Bosh has become such a deadly jump shooter, but the defense is the reason I'm planning to bet the West champion, assuming the Heat makes the Finals.
Being a 45 win team means being slightly better than average over the course of an 82 game season. Winning a championship means being slightly better than average during a 28 game (max) season against teams that are increasingly good.
I'd go so far as to suggest that they're almost entirely different skills.
I agree with all this. Like I said, I think he is a good, forward thinking coach. But, using Stevens as a random example again, it's not fair to say, "Spo is clearly a better coach than Stevens because he's made the conference finals 4 years in a row!"
Dolan is going down the list of white guys who played in Cleveland.
I mostly agree, but Spoelstra did lead the Heat to 47 wins in their last year pre-LeBron, and didn't exactly have a stacked team. Like has been said, with having the players they've had, LeBron especially, it's hard to know how good he really is, but keeping all of those egos in check to be able to succeed has to count for something, yes? I wouldn't put him in the top tier of coaches, but he'd be in the second tier at worst, I think.I'm not interested in trying to rank coaches based on completely subjective criteria. My reasoning for him being "top 10" is because his team is/have been performing up to expectations. Just because he is winning championships doesn't mean he is better than a guy like Thibs who is stuck with a bunch scrubs.
ok man. yet somehow you are adamant that he is a top 10 coach, but not top 5, but you don't know who the coaches that are better than him are, just that there at least 9 who might be.
It really doesn't matter to me. I just think that he is probably underrated in general because Lebron gets so much attention, that he has achieve results that few in NBA history have, and he has been able to combine technical analysis with people management in an impressive way.
Your argument sounds a lot like the kobe nut-huggers around here. "OMG he has 5 rings and works really hard! He's the best ever!"
By what measure are we using to judge "best" in terms of defense? Todem is referring to the piranha defense that Miami has the ability to turn on at the end of a game. They've shown it for a few years. It's one thing to have a bunch of shot swatting trees in the paint and tall perimeter players like the old Bulls teams had but to see what the Heat can do with the likes of relatively short Ray Allen, Chalmers/Cole, James, Wade, Bosh that completely stifles another team in the late stages that i'd point to when making such a determination. It's not like the Heat have only done what they did last night once. How many times during the 27 game streak did they do something similar? I'm pretty sure they came back from 12 down with under 4 minutes left against the MVP DRose led Bulls a few years ago to close them out (in Chicago).
I'm just being absurd for the sake of absurdity.....but i'm really not a fan of either those dudes.
The problem is...no team has comparable roster because no other team has Lebron James.
sportvu tracking has him at an average game speed of 4.0, which is 124th in the league this year, though a lot of people are tied at 4.0, including Westbrook, so I guess the usefulness of the data is kind of open to interpretation.
