*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (2 Viewers)

[Bruce Dickinson]

With respect to the Wilt part- he wouldn't even be anything special as a physical specimen in today's game.

Wrong. Not even in the same stratosphere as right.

I don't really care to get into this- point is that a 7'1" guy with obscene athletic talent stands out a lot more in the 1960s than in the 2010s.

Maybe if he was magically transported to this era with the advances in training and whatnot he'd still be head and shoulders above his peers figuratively if not literally, but that's a silly thing to try to imagine, so I don't really bother.

I get that you're too prideful to admit you had this one wrong. No big deal. If you want to be informed about it, read up on Wilt as a track and field athlete sometime.ETA: if you had made the same statement subbing in "Russell" for "Wilt", I wouldn't have objected.

 

[Ghost Rider]

This has been discussed before, but there are probably hundreds of players that I would choose before Lebron if I needed to score a bucket. Not sure what that has to do with being the greatest of all time though.

Since that is a big part of winning games (scoring when you need to win a close game), I think it is huge. It is why MJ is the greatest ever and why Larry is even in the same discussion with LeBron despite being smaller, slower and weaker.

Ah, the playoffs. When people read the latest #hotsportstake from Gregg Doyel or some other idiot and decide to bring it to the thread.

Unless they changed the rules and no longer allow the other four people on the team to score in the final minute of the game, there is no player you should choose before LeBron if your team needs to score a bucket.

Yeah, cause Larry and Michael were never double teamed and could never find the open man.

Did you read this before you hit send??

The point is. Game is on the line and YOU have to say, get out of my way and give me the ball. Bird and Jordan did it. Repeatedly. Over double teams and everything else. There is video of Bird hitting a game winning fadeaway in Pippen's face with Jordan coming over to double. In the same situation, you think LeBron hits that shot??

I don't....

Hi!

I remember that game. Watched it. Great shot. He's still not at Jordan or Bird's level with the last shot. If you think he is, you are fooling yourself. Those guys could almost do it on command.

You are fooling yourself if you think they could do it on command. They missed all the time.

LeBron has plenty of buzzer-beaters and clutch shots on his resume. But he's also a different player than Jordan and Bird. I don't like this historical comparisons, but if you insist on them he's probably more Magic than Bird. Would you criticize Magic for passing in a clutch possession if he found a much better shot for a teammate, which we've already established is exactly what LeBron did last night?

Wait, I thought all-time great players don't ever pass at the end of big games...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2BlOTeoZVE

 

[TobiasFunke]

This is basically what what saintsfan et al are saying:

I am tired of LeBron, the best basketball player in the world, making the right basketball plays. I wish he'd start making the wrong plays more often. Then maybe he wouldn't be the best player in the world anymore. Because then he'd be making the wrong basketball plays, you see. I prefer to see sports as a morality tale, and so I value aggressive, manhood-waving idiocy over proper decision-making.

Taken from this.

 

[saintsfan]

Bird never won two in a row. LeBron is currently one championship behind him and one MVP award ahead of him. And I am a huge Bird fan.

Magic never won more than two in a row, so LeBron has already matched him in that regard. And Magic only came out of college to play with Kareem, so do we knock him for hand picking his teammates as well??

His championship series record is irrelevant, unless you want to act like it would have been better for him to not to have dragged that average Cavs team to the finals in 2007. Oh, but he lost in the finals, so that counts against him, right?

Bird would have won 4 in a row if not for that pesky Kareem and Magic team in LA. Magic would have probably had two repeats if not for Bird.

Only once was a Laker repeat in the 80s denied by Bird's Celtics.

Right. They would have had two repeats. '84 and '85 and '87 and '88.

Okay, I misread that as "two more repeats." Besides, does it matter? The Spurs are considered a dynasty and an all-time great team, yet not only have they not won two in a row yet, they still haven't ever made it to two finals in a row. And yet that hasn't hurt Duncan's rep as the best power forward ever or a top 10 all-time player.

I haven't said anything about losing hurting LeBron's reputation. Other people have. Obviously, we won't know until his career is over.

3 championships, IMO, puts you at an elite level. Let's see if he gets it. I'm sure he will.

I don't think he is an elite clutch shooter. In other words, there are probably two other guys on the Heat I'd want taking that final shot. Allen and Wade.

Now, whether that makes him the best of all time or not I don't know. You might be arguing with the wrong person since I don't actually think it's beyond argument that Jordan is even the best of all time. I mean, Kareem has 6 titles and several other Finals appearances and is the all time leading scorer. Kareem is also, IMO without argument, the most dominant college player of all time. Kareem had everything. Those that remember him only from the 80s might not remember how athletic and dominant he was earlier in his career, but the guy was a beast.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Well, I agree that Kareem is underrated (I consider him a top 3 player all-time), and my beef is with these "James won't ever be as good as Jordan no matter what" people. They are basically admitting one or two things:

1. That they are so all over Jordan's nut sack that they refuse to accept that anybody could ever be as good or better than him, no matter what happens.

2. They dislike LeBron James too much to ever give him too much credit or props.

 

[saintsfan]

This has been discussed before, but there are probably hundreds of players that I would choose before Lebron if I needed to score a bucket. Not sure what that has to do with being the greatest of all time though.

Since that is a big part of winning games (scoring when you need to win a close game), I think it is huge. It is why MJ is the greatest ever and why Larry is even in the same discussion with LeBron despite being smaller, slower and weaker.

Ah, the playoffs. When people read the latest #hotsportstake from Gregg Doyel or some other idiot and decide to bring it to the thread.

Unless they changed the rules and no longer allow the other four people on the team to score in the final minute of the game, there is no player you should choose before LeBron if your team needs to score a bucket.

Yeah, cause Larry and Michael were never double teamed and could never find the open man.

Did you read this before you hit send??

The point is. Game is on the line and YOU have to say, get out of my way and give me the ball. Bird and Jordan did it. Repeatedly. Over double teams and everything else. There is video of Bird hitting a game winning fadeaway in Pippen's face with Jordan coming over to double. In the same situation, you think LeBron hits that shot??

I don't....

Hi!

I remember that game. Watched it. Great shot. He's still not at Jordan or Bird's level with the last shot. If you think he is, you are fooling yourself. Those guys could almost do it on command.

You are fooling yourself if you think they could do it on command. They missed all the time.

LeBron has plenty of buzzer-beaters and clutch shots on his resume. But he's also a different player than Jordan and Bird. I don't like this historical comparisons, but if you insist on them he's probably more Magic than Bird. Would you criticize Magic for passing in a clutch possession if he found a much better shot for a teammate, which we've already established is exactly what LeBron did last night?

Both Bird and Jordan passed it too when they had to. Not criticizing that at all.

I'm saying that I've watched LeBron play in every playoff game he's ever played in. I haven't seen him hit a lot of those shots. I remember Larry and Michael hitting them all the time. Sure, they missed lots of them, but they hit enough of them that we seem to remember them. Now, maybe their roles on the team are different. Maybe LeBron is the only real playmaker on that team and that's why he does a lot of that.

I still say if somebody has to hit a fadeaway from 20 feet to win the game with multiple guys on him, it wouldn't be LeBron...

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I don't think he is an elite clutch shooter. In other words, there are probably two other guys on the Heat I'd want taking that final shot. Allen and Wade.

You'd be picking the wrong guys then.

Last year

This year

Allen is only taking the final shot if a team forgets about him and he is open so I don't know how you can really compare him to LeBron or Wade is those situations.

 

[saintsfan]

Well, I agree that Kareem is underrated (I consider him a top 3 player all-time), and my beef is with these "James won't ever be as good as Jordan no matter what" people. They are basically admitting one or two things:

1. That they are so all over Jordan's nut sack that they refuse to accept that anybody could ever be as good or better than him, no matter what happens.

2. They dislike LeBron James too much to ever give him too much credit or props.

I get that people are nostalgic about Jordan and the Bulls, but James is a far more gracious person than Jordan ever was, so I find it far easier to root for him than I ever did for Jordan (who is a total #####, by just about every account I have ever read).

I actually agree with all of this and I don't dislike James. I actually like him far more than Jordan, even though at this point, I still think Jordan is better.

He is clearly one of the best of all time, but just like people automatically crown Jordan when I'm not sure he is 100% for sure the greatest ever, I don't like to automatically think James is just because he's probably the most physically gifted player we've ever seen. Physical gifts aren't everything.

 

[Alonzo Mosely]

Bosch!

Blender or microwave?

 

[saintsfan]

I don't think he is an elite clutch shooter. In other words, there are probably two other guys on the Heat I'd want taking that final shot. Allen and Wade.

You'd be picking the wrong guys then.

Last year

This year

Allen is only taking the final shot if a team forgets about him and he is open so I don't know how you can really compare him to LeBron or Wade is those situations.

Come on man, you can't even admit that he's not as good a shooter in that situation than Bird or Jordan??

Let me put it this way. You win a billion dollars if the guy hits the shot. Larry, Jordan, and LeBron are 20 feet from the basket. Which one do you want taking the shot?? If you say LeBron, I think you are lying...

 

[Ghost Rider]

I don't think he is an elite clutch shooter. In other words, there are probably two other guys on the Heat I'd want taking that final shot. Allen and Wade.

You'd be picking the wrong guys then.

Last year

This year

Allen is only taking the final shot if a team forgets about him and he is open so I don't know how you can really compare him to LeBron or Wade is those situations.

Come on man, you can't even admit that he's not as good a shooter in that situation than Bird or Jordan??

Let me put it this way. You win a billion dollars if the guy hits the shot. Larry, Jordan, and LeBron are 20 feet from the basket. Which one do you want taking the shot?? If you say LeBron, I think you are lying...

I'll ask again: why does it matter? Have you really subscribed to the Skip Bayless way of thinking?

 

[AAABatteries]

I'm sure Miami will win game 6 by 30. NBA doesn't care, another game, more millions for their pockets

There was no way Miami was going to be allowed to win this game.

The NBA is a billion dollar business that operates mainly off of the public trust that its games are on the up and up. They aren't going to risk tens of billions of dollars to make a few extra million on one game.

You guys are complete idiots if you think the league office is rigging these games.

The lottery is still rigged though, right?

 

[saintsfan]

I don't think he is an elite clutch shooter. In other words, there are probably two other guys on the Heat I'd want taking that final shot. Allen and Wade.

You'd be picking the wrong guys then.

Last year

This year

Allen is only taking the final shot if a team forgets about him and he is open so I don't know how you can really compare him to LeBron or Wade is those situations.

Come on man, you can't even admit that he's not as good a shooter in that situation than Bird or Jordan??

Let me put it this way. You win a billion dollars if the guy hits the shot. Larry, Jordan, and LeBron are 20 feet from the basket. Which one do you want taking the shot?? If you say LeBron, I think you are lying...

I'll ask again: why does it matter? Have you really subscribed to the Skip Bayless way of thinking?

Maybe I think it does matter...

 

[TobiasFunke]

I don't think he is an elite clutch shooter. In other words, there are probably two other guys on the Heat I'd want taking that final shot. Allen and Wade.

You'd be picking the wrong guys then.

Last year

This year

Allen is only taking the final shot if a team forgets about him and he is open so I don't know how you can really compare him to LeBron or Wade is those situations.

Come on man, you can't even admit that he's not as good a shooter in that situation than Bird or Jordan??

Let me put it this way. You win a billion dollars if the guy hits the shot. Larry, Jordan, and LeBron are 20 feet from the basket. Which one do you want taking the shot?? If you say LeBron, I think you are lying...

It's not a one on one game. There's no rule that says only one player can take a shot. Jordan understood that, which is why he passed to Kerr on that famous shot. He also gave up the ball to someone (Grant maybe?) in the lane on the possession that ended with the famous Paxton game winner, and did it in many lesser situations as well. Bird understood it too, although he wasn't a ballhandler so he didn't have as many chances to show it as other superstars. LeBron understands it too, which is why he made the right play last night and has done it on many other occasions.

If those guys understand it, why can't you and Gregg Doyel and Skip Bayless understand it?

 

[saintsfan]

I don't think he is an elite clutch shooter. In other words, there are probably two other guys on the Heat I'd want taking that final shot. Allen and Wade.

You'd be picking the wrong guys then.

Last year

This year

Allen is only taking the final shot if a team forgets about him and he is open so I don't know how you can really compare him to LeBron or Wade is those situations.

Come on man, you can't even admit that he's not as good a shooter in that situation than Bird or Jordan??

Let me put it this way. You win a billion dollars if the guy hits the shot. Larry, Jordan, and LeBron are 20 feet from the basket. Which one do you want taking the shot?? If you say LeBron, I think you are lying...

It's not a one on one game. There's no rule that says only one player can take a shot. Jordan understood that, which is why he passed to Kerr on that famous shot. He also gave up the ball to someone (Grant maybe?) in the lane on the possession that ended with the famous Paxton game winner, and did it in many lesser situations as well. Bird understood it too, although he wasn't a ballhandler so he didn't have as many chances to show it as other superstars. LeBron understands it too, which is why he made the right play last night and has done it on many other occasions.

If those guys understand it, why can't you and Gregg Doyel and Skip Bayless understand it?

I understand it perfectly and that's not the question.

As far as why it matters, IMO, there are times where you have to say give me the damn ball and get out of the way. In that situation, I'll take the other two guys. That doesn't mean they are automatically better. It just means that when you are comparing, LeBron doesn't get that checkmark by his name.

LeBron has a chance to rise above these two guys in the all-time argument, but I don't think he's there yet. As I said above, I don't think any of these guys is the greatest of all time anyway. Kareem has a hell of an argument.

 

[Synthesizer]

Also, what would have happened if MJ didn't take 2 years off? 8 straight would have been ridiculous.

Taking 2 years off in your prime to go goof around in another sport is a HUGE blemish on MJ's legacy. It shouldn't be viewed in a positive light when discussing him as the GOAT.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Also, what would have happened if MJ didn't take 2 years off? 8 straight would have been ridiculous.

Taking 2 years off in your prime to go goof around in another sport is a HUGE blemish on MJ's legacy. It shouldn't be viewed in a positive light when discussing him as the GOAT.

He was suspended for two years for gambling, it is not like he had a choice.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Fun game making the rounds on social media the last couple of days.

You have $15 to spend to make your starting 5:

PG

Magic Johnson - $5

Oscar Robertson - $4

Isiah Thomas - $3

John Stockton - $2

Walt Frazier - $1

SG

Michael Jordan - $5

Kobe Bryant - $4

Jerry West - $3

Clyde Drexler - $2

Dwayne Wade - $1

SF

LeBron James - $5

Larry Bird - $4

Julius Erving - $3

Kevin Durant - $2

Scottie Pippen - $1

PF

Karl Malone - $5

Charles Barkley - $4

Tim Duncan - $3

Dirk Nowitzki - $2

Kevin Garnett - $1

C

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - $5

Bill Russell - $4

Wilt Chamberlain - $3

Shaquille O'Neal - $2

Hakeem Olajuwon - $1

Stockton $2

Jordan $5

Durant $2

Duncan $3

Wilt $3

Although The Dream was one of the greats thinking of him matched up against any of the other 4 seems like a weak spot. Had a lineup with Shaq and Lebron, but then you're missing the 3 point shooting element. Duncan is the best "4" in that group, not sure why he's $3.

 

[Jayrod]

Anyone who honestly questions MJ's status as #1 all time, look over this page and tell me anyone who has a better overall resume.

And I agree on Kareem as #2. Wilt and Russell are close behind followed by Bird and Magic. After that, I'd go ahead and put LeBron.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I don't think he is an elite clutch shooter. In other words, there are probably two other guys on the Heat I'd want taking that final shot. Allen and Wade.

You'd be picking the wrong guys then.

Last year

This year

Allen is only taking the final shot if a team forgets about him and he is open so I don't know how you can really compare him to LeBron or Wade is those situations.

Come on man, you can't even admit that he's not as good a shooter in that situation than Bird or Jordan??

Let me put it this way. You win a billion dollars if the guy hits the shot. Larry, Jordan, and LeBron are 20 feet from the basket. Which one do you want taking the shot?? If you say LeBron, I think you are lying...

It's not a one on one game. There's no rule that says only one player can take a shot. Jordan understood that, which is why he passed to Kerr on that famous shot. He also gave up the ball to someone (Grant maybe?) in the lane on the possession that ended with the famous Paxton game winner, and did it in many lesser situations as well. Bird understood it too, although he wasn't a ballhandler so he didn't have as many chances to show it as other superstars. LeBron understands it too, which is why he made the right play last night and has done it on many other occasions.

If those guys understand it, why can't you and Gregg Doyel and Skip Bayless understand it?

I understand it perfectly and that's not the question.

As far as why it matters, IMO, there are times where you have to say give me the damn ball and get out of the way. In that situation, I'll take the other two guys. That doesn't mean they are automatically better. It just means that when you are comparing, LeBron doesn't get that checkmark by his name.

LeBron has a chance to rise above these two guys in the all-time argument, but I don't think he's there yet. As I said above, I don't think any of these guys is the greatest of all time anyway. Kareem has a hell of an argument.

The objective is always to win the game. You make the plays that gives your team the best chance to win the game based on the situation and the defense, whether that's an off-balance 20 footer or a pass to a wide-open corner 3 or a drive to the basket or whatever. End of analysis. LeBron makes the plays that give his team the best chance to win the game as well or better than anyone in recent history, in my opinion.

 

[Synthesizer]

Also, what would have happened if MJ didn't take 2 years off? 8 straight would have been ridiculous.

Taking 2 years off in your prime to go goof around in another sport is a HUGE blemish on MJ's legacy. It shouldn't be viewed in a positive light when discussing him as the GOAT.

He was suspended for two years for gambling, it is not like he had a choice.

Whatever the reason, it should be held against him.

 

[Jayrod]

I don't think he is an elite clutch shooter. In other words, there are probably two other guys on the Heat I'd want taking that final shot. Allen and Wade.

You'd be picking the wrong guys then.

Last year

This year

Allen is only taking the final shot if a team forgets about him and he is open so I don't know how you can really compare him to LeBron or Wade is those situations.

Come on man, you can't even admit that he's not as good a shooter in that situation than Bird or Jordan??

Let me put it this way. You win a billion dollars if the guy hits the shot. Larry, Jordan, and LeBron are 20 feet from the basket. Which one do you want taking the shot?? If you say LeBron, I think you are lying...

It's not a one on one game. There's no rule that says only one player can take a shot. Jordan understood that, which is why he passed to Kerr on that famous shot. He also gave up the ball to someone (Grant maybe?) in the lane on the possession that ended with the famous Paxton game winner, and did it in many lesser situations as well. Bird understood it too, although he wasn't a ballhandler so he didn't have as many chances to show it as other superstars. LeBron understands it too, which is why he made the right play last night and has done it on many other occasions.

If those guys understand it, why can't you and Gregg Doyel and Skip Bayless understand it?

I understand it perfectly and that's not the question.

As far as why it matters, IMO, there are times where you have to say give me the damn ball and get out of the way. In that situation, I'll take the other two guys. That doesn't mean they are automatically better. It just means that when you are comparing, LeBron doesn't get that checkmark by his name.

LeBron has a chance to rise above these two guys in the all-time argument, but I don't think he's there yet. As I said above, I don't think any of these guys is the greatest of all time anyway. Kareem has a hell of an argument.

The objective is always to win the game. You make the plays that gives your team the best chance to win the game based on the situation and the defense, whether that's an off-balance 20 footer or a pass to a wide-open corner 3 or a drive to the basket or whatever. LeBron makes the plays that give his team the best chance to win the game as well or better than anyone in recent history, in my opinion. End of analysis.

Now that's funny.

 

[TobiasFunke]

My bad, Jayrod. That "end of analysis" statement was in the wrong place, should have been after the bit about how you make the plays that give your team the best chance to win the game. I fixed it.

 

[Gr00vus]

#### this thread is tedious.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

#### this thread is tedious.

You misspelled "awesome".

 

[AAABatteries]

I think Wilt is undervalued by folks. Dude was a freak - Think Shaq but in shape and more athletic. I want him and Jordan and you can mix/match the rest. Hell, I just realize I could take LeBron too.

Here's my 5:

Fraizer, MJ, LeBron, Garnett, Wilt.

 

[AAABatteries]

Stockton/Jordan/Lebron/Garnett/Hakeem or Shaq

Fun but kind of easy.

IMO Frazier/Wilt > Stockton/Hakeem or Shaq

With MJ and LeBron on the team you don't need Stockton's passing and he's a liability on defense.

 

[DrJ]

Well, I agree that Kareem is underrated (I consider him a top 3 player all-time), and my beef is with these "James won't ever be as good as Jordan no matter what" people. They are basically admitting one or two things:

1. That they are so all over Jordan's nut sack that they refuse to accept that anybody could ever be as good or better than him, no matter what happens.

2. They dislike LeBron James too much to ever give him too much credit or props.

3. Lebron has fallen short in the playoffs numerous times in ways that Jordan didn't during the course of his career, and there's nothing James can do from now until the end of his career that can change that.

 

[saintsfan]

Anyone who honestly questions MJ's status as #1 all time, look over this page and tell me anyone who has a better overall resume.

And I agree on Kareem as #2. Wilt and Russell are close behind followed by Bird and Magic. After that, I'd go ahead and put LeBron.

Anyone who honestly questions MJ's status as #1 all time, look over this page and tell me anyone who has a better overall resume.

And I agree on Kareem as #2. Wilt and Russell are close behind followed by Bird and Magic. After that, I'd go ahead and put LeBron.

Kareem's resume is equally impressive. Different position. Different players.

You could make an argument for MJ for sure, but people act like Jordan is Babe Ruth or Wayne Gretsky. It's not nearly as cut and dry as people make it.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Well, I agree that Kareem is underrated (I consider him a top 3 player all-time), and my beef is with these "James won't ever be as good as Jordan no matter what" people. They are basically admitting one or two things:

1. That they are so all over Jordan's nut sack that they refuse to accept that anybody could ever be as good or better than him, no matter what happens.

2. They dislike LeBron James too much to ever give him too much credit or props.

3. Lebron has fallen short in the playoffs numerous times in ways that Jordan didn't during the course of his career, and there's nothing James can do from now until the end of his career that can change that.

Can you describe the ways that LeBron has fallen short in the playoffs that Jordan didn't? Are you talking about stuff like losing in the Finals at age 23 with a mediocre supporting cast? If so you have a point, LeBron definitely fell short there in a way that Jordan didn't, because Jordan's team went 30-52 when he was 23.

 

[the moops]

Stockton - $2

Jordan - $5

Lebron - $5

Garnett - $1

Hakeem - $1

I don't need the extra buck

 

[DrJ]

Well, I agree that Kareem is underrated (I consider him a top 3 player all-time), and my beef is with these "James won't ever be as good as Jordan no matter what" people. They are basically admitting one or two things:

1. That they are so all over Jordan's nut sack that they refuse to accept that anybody could ever be as good or better than him, no matter what happens.

2. They dislike LeBron James too much to ever give him too much credit or props.

3. Lebron has fallen short in the playoffs numerous times in ways that Jordan didn't during the course of his career, and there's nothing James can do from now until the end of his career that can change that.

Can you describe the ways that LeBron has fallen short in the playoffs that Jordan didn't? Are you talking about stuff like losing in the Finals at age 23 with a mediocre supporting cast? If so you have a point, LeBron definitely fell short there in a way that Jordan didn't, because Jordan's team went 30-52 when he was 23.

I was thinking more like the two playoff series against Boston where he played like crap and lost. 1 time not even needing 7 games to get his ### bounced like a chump, as the 1 seed, after playing like crap. Mostly those.

 

[Todem]

Heat fans whining about foul calls has to be one of the funniest things to ever happen in this thread.

I guess when you're used to the Lebron Treatment, it is a gigantic shock when a few calls go against you:

During a rather prolific period last season, James once went 250 consecutive minutes without being called for a foul. During a two-week stretch in 2009, he was called for a total of three fouls in nine games, including five consecutive games without drawing a whistle. A full week of NBA basketball without a single foul.

I bet you guys think that's all perfectly normal and legit though, right?

I rarely complain about NBA refs....it's par for the course with some of the most ridiculous fouls I see called around the league. But last night was incredible.It took that kind of schlock to keep the game close. Now, the Heat did not help themselves with some careless passes and some really bad possessions. But despite all that they had a shot to win it in the end. I am not a blind homer. They lost, they could have won, but they did not do enough in the end.

So The Heat did not lose because of the officiating, but don't sit there and say you see 3 of those 5 fouls called on any high end player in the league. It was blatant insanity last night.

Your's and Premier's obvious disdain and hate for The Heat is also quite amusing and laughable. It blurs your vision as well when things going on are off, but since it went against The Heat...it must be ok. And anyone with common sense that expresses some concern that what went on last night was pretty crappy...well you get the point.

Get a grip, see beyond the hate and admit last night was moronic in how they clearly called half those fouls on James. Seriously it was a comedy show.

@Tim

What are you smoking...nervous? LMFAO. The Pacers are going to get run off the court tomorrow night in epic fashion.

I agree some of the calls were bad, but there have already been multiple laughable calls against Hibbert, Stephenson and West as well.

Of course, there were also 2 or 3 times where James blatantly shoved Stephenson to break towards the ball in the last 5 minutes with no call on any of them.

And for all the whining about the lack of free throws for the Heat that I'm seeing around the web, the disparity in game 5 was less than it was in game 4.

Every time there's a call against playoff opponents, Heat fans and announcers are so quick to say "well, those calls even out." The truth is that they typically don't even out when the Heat are involved. They enjoy quite an edge in free throws over their opponents over the last few year. But it happens one time in one game and suddenly what's good for the goose isn't what's good for the gander.

Hey I agree. The Heat get a lot of calls. No question. that's why I rarely if ever whine about officiating. We go to the line just about more than any team in the league.

But last night was pretty freaking bad. That's all I wanted to point out. It really went to a new low for me. And how they did not address Lance's antics last night without a technical is beyond comprehension. That guy is "A" class a punk and an embarrassment to the Association.

 

[DrJ]

Oh, and there was that one time where they lost to the Mavericks in 6 games, again with home court advantage, because James didn't even bother to show up at the Finals. 8 points on 3 of 11 shooting in one game? Sorry, you can never be as good as Jordan once you pull a stunt like that.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Well, I agree that Kareem is underrated (I consider him a top 3 player all-time), and my beef is with these "James won't ever be as good as Jordan no matter what" people. They are basically admitting one or two things:

1. That they are so all over Jordan's nut sack that they refuse to accept that anybody could ever be as good or better than him, no matter what happens.

2. They dislike LeBron James too much to ever give him too much credit or props.

3. Lebron has fallen short in the playoffs numerous times in ways that Jordan didn't during the course of his career, and there's nothing James can do from now until the end of his career that can change that.

Can you describe the ways that LeBron has fallen short in the playoffs that Jordan didn't? Are you talking about stuff like losing in the Finals at age 23 with a mediocre supporting cast? If so you have a point, LeBron definitely fell short there in a way that Jordan didn't, because Jordan's team went 30-52 when he was 23.

I was thinking more like the two playoff series against Boston where he played like crap and lost. 1 time not even needing 7 games to get his ### bounced like a chump, as the 1 seed, after playing like crap. Mostly those.

Ah, I see. You're right. He should have played worse during the regular season so that when his team got bounced in the playoffs during his age 25 and age 26 seasons just like Jordan's team it wouldn't have looked as bad. Although he probably would have had to tank a bit more during the playoffs too, since Jordan's team got bumped in 5 games in his age 25 season and 6 games in his age 26 season.

Cut him some slack though, will you? He was just a kid. He didn't realize he needed to play poorly enough to be the 2/3 seed instead of the 1 and lose in 5 and 6 games instead of 6 and 7.

 

[timschochet]

LeBron James

Wilt Chamberlain

Shaquille O' Neil

Kareem Abdul Jabbar

I would take any of these 4 players on my team before I would take Michael Jordan. I would also strongly consider Magic Johnson and Tim Duncan.

LeBron has been more valuable than Michael Jordan for about 4-5 years now.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I don't think he is an elite clutch shooter. In other words, there are probably two other guys on the Heat I'd want taking that final shot. Allen and Wade.

You'd be picking the wrong guys then.

Last year

This year

Allen is only taking the final shot if a team forgets about him and he is open so I don't know how you can really compare him to LeBron or Wade is those situations.

Come on man, you can't even admit that he's not as good a shooter in that situation than Bird or Jordan??

Let me put it this way. You win a billion dollars if the guy hits the shot. Larry, Jordan, and LeBron are 20 feet from the basket. Which one do you want taking the shot?? If you say LeBron, I think you are lying...

I was replying to your Wade or Allen vs LeBron statement, not LeBron vs MJ or Bird.

What is your situation? Ball at the top of the key with 10 seconds left and have to create a shot for himself or others? Wide open 20 footer? Contested hand in the face fade-away? Smaller defender or bigger defender? What is the score? There are so many variables. I would take LeBron or MJ to make the final play and I think the difference is so negligible that unless you were giving them 1000 chances at it, it doesn't matter which one you take. I only exclude Bird because of the LeBron and MJ would have a better chance at getting to the rim IMO.

A wide open 20 footer I probably take Bird. But I'd take Nash, Novak, Peja, Allen, Dirk, etc. over all 3 of them (note: I did not intentionally pick all white dudes ).

 

[DrJ]

Well, I agree that Kareem is underrated (I consider him a top 3 player all-time), and my beef is with these "James won't ever be as good as Jordan no matter what" people. They are basically admitting one or two things:

1. That they are so all over Jordan's nut sack that they refuse to accept that anybody could ever be as good or better than him, no matter what happens.

2. They dislike LeBron James too much to ever give him too much credit or props.

3. Lebron has fallen short in the playoffs numerous times in ways that Jordan didn't during the course of his career, and there's nothing James can do from now until the end of his career that can change that.

Can you describe the ways that LeBron has fallen short in the playoffs that Jordan didn't? Are you talking about stuff like losing in the Finals at age 23 with a mediocre supporting cast? If so you have a point, LeBron definitely fell short there in a way that Jordan didn't, because Jordan's team went 30-52 when he was 23.

I was thinking more like the two playoff series against Boston where he played like crap and lost. 1 time not even needing 7 games to get his ### bounced like a chump, as the 1 seed, after playing like crap. Mostly those.

Ah, I see. You're right. He should have played worse during the regular season so that when his team got bounced in the playoffs during his age 25 and age 26 seasons just like Jordan's team it wouldn't have looked as bad. Although he probably would have had to tank a bit more during the playoffs too, since Jordan's team got bumped in 5 games in his age 25 season and 6 games in his age 26 season.

Cut him some slack though, will you? He was just a kid. He didn't realize he needed to play poorly enough to be the 2/3 seed instead of the 1 and lose in 5 and 6 games instead of 6 and 7.

No, he should have decided to play like a world class player. No shame in playing well and still losing - there is shame in playing like a chump when you're supposed to be the best player on the planet. Even not boarding the plane would have damaged his legacy less than what happened on the court in those games. No, I won't cut him slack, you don't get slack in a GOAT discussion.

 

[pollardsvision]

Deciding between 2 but both have Magic and Duncan. I'd give anything to see what those 2 could've done together.

Either

Magic

SG-Whatever. Wade, I guess. Wade, Drexler, and West will all get torched by Jordan and don't have the 3 point range I want with this team.

Durant (seriously, imagine what Magic could do with him)

Duncan

Shaq

Or

Magic

Jordan

Pippen

Duncan

Hakeem

(that one's probably so good, it's stupid to consider another).

 

[DrJ]

Magic, Jordan, Pippen, Garnett, Wilt. This is pretty easy. Only sore thumb in this lineup is Magic's D.

 

[encaitar]

Well, I agree that Kareem is underrated (I consider him a top 3 player all-time), and my beef is with these "James won't ever be as good as Jordan no matter what" people. They are basically admitting one or two things:

1. That they are so all over Jordan's nut sack that they refuse to accept that anybody could ever be as good or better than him, no matter what happens.

2. They dislike LeBron James too much to ever give him too much credit or props.

3. Lebron has fallen short in the playoffs numerous times in ways that Jordan didn't during the course of his career, and there's nothing James can do from now until the end of his career that can change that.

I guess the 80s never happened.

 

[DrJ]

Well, I agree that Kareem is underrated (I consider him a top 3 player all-time), and my beef is with these "James won't ever be as good as Jordan no matter what" people. They are basically admitting one or two things:

1. That they are so all over Jordan's nut sack that they refuse to accept that anybody could ever be as good or better than him, no matter what happens.

2. They dislike LeBron James too much to ever give him too much credit or props.

3. Lebron has fallen short in the playoffs numerous times in ways that Jordan didn't during the course of his career, and there's nothing James can do from now until the end of his career that can change that.

I guess the 80s never happened.

They happened, and Jordan never in his existence put up performances that looked like those Lebron James turds.

 

[Freelove]

Well, I agree that Kareem is underrated (I consider him a top 3 player all-time), and my beef is with these "James won't ever be as good as Jordan no matter what" people. They are basically admitting one or two things:

1. That they are so all over Jordan's nut sack that they refuse to accept that anybody could ever be as good or better than him, no matter what happens.

2. They dislike LeBron James too much to ever give him too much credit or props.

3. Lebron has fallen short in the playoffs numerous times in ways that Jordan didn't during the course of his career, and there's nothing James can do from now until the end of his career that can change that.

Can you describe the ways that LeBron has fallen short in the playoffs that Jordan didn't? Are you talking about stuff like losing in the Finals at age 23 with a mediocre supporting cast? If so you have a point, LeBron definitely fell short there in a way that Jordan didn't, because Jordan's team went 30-52 when he was 23.

I was thinking more like the two playoff series against Boston where he played like crap and lost. 1 time not even needing 7 games to get his ### bounced like a chump, as the 1 seed, after playing like crap. Mostly those.

Ah, I see. You're right. He should have played worse during the regular season so that when his team got bounced in the playoffs during his age 25 and age 26 seasons just like Jordan's team it wouldn't have looked as bad. Although he probably would have had to tank a bit more during the playoffs too, since Jordan's team got bumped in 5 games in his age 25 season and 6 games in his age 26 season.

Cut him some slack though, will you? He was just a kid. He didn't realize he needed to play poorly enough to be the 2/3 seed instead of the 1 and lose in 5 and 6 games instead of 6 and 7.

No, he should have decided to play like a world class player. No shame in playing well and still losing - there is shame in playing like a chump when you're supposed to be the best player on the planet. Even not boarding the plane would have damaged his legacy less than what happened on the court in those games. No, I won't cut him slack, you don't get slack in a GOAT discussion.

Since Lebron was demonstrably light years ahead of Jordan at the same stage of development for which you refuse to grant him slack, that means you've eliminated Jordan from GOAT contention as well? You an Horry man?

 

[DrJ]

Well, I agree that Kareem is underrated (I consider him a top 3 player all-time), and my beef is with these "James won't ever be as good as Jordan no matter what" people. They are basically admitting one or two things:

1. That they are so all over Jordan's nut sack that they refuse to accept that anybody could ever be as good or better than him, no matter what happens.

2. They dislike LeBron James too much to ever give him too much credit or props.

3. Lebron has fallen short in the playoffs numerous times in ways that Jordan didn't during the course of his career, and there's nothing James can do from now until the end of his career that can change that.

Can you describe the ways that LeBron has fallen short in the playoffs that Jordan didn't? Are you talking about stuff like losing in the Finals at age 23 with a mediocre supporting cast? If so you have a point, LeBron definitely fell short there in a way that Jordan didn't, because Jordan's team went 30-52 when he was 23.

I was thinking more like the two playoff series against Boston where he played like crap and lost. 1 time not even needing 7 games to get his ### bounced like a chump, as the 1 seed, after playing like crap. Mostly those.

Ah, I see. You're right. He should have played worse during the regular season so that when his team got bounced in the playoffs during his age 25 and age 26 seasons just like Jordan's team it wouldn't have looked as bad. Although he probably would have had to tank a bit more during the playoffs too, since Jordan's team got bumped in 5 games in his age 25 season and 6 games in his age 26 season.

Cut him some slack though, will you? He was just a kid. He didn't realize he needed to play poorly enough to be the 2/3 seed instead of the 1 and lose in 5 and 6 games instead of 6 and 7.

No, he should have decided to play like a world class player. No shame in playing well and still losing - there is shame in playing like a chump when you're supposed to be the best player on the planet. Even not boarding the plane would have damaged his legacy less than what happened on the court in those games. No, I won't cut him slack, you don't get slack in a GOAT discussion.

Since Lebron was demonstrably light years ahead of Jordan at the same stage of development for which you refuse to grant him slack, that means you've eliminated Jordan from GOAT contention as well? You an Horry man?

Light years ahead at disappearing on the big stage I guess. There was no stage in Jordan's development where he put up 8 points on 3 for 11 in a playoff game, let alone a finals game. You got me there.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Well, I agree that Kareem is underrated (I consider him a top 3 player all-time), and my beef is with these "James won't ever be as good as Jordan no matter what" people. They are basically admitting one or two things:

1. That they are so all over Jordan's nut sack that they refuse to accept that anybody could ever be as good or better than him, no matter what happens.

2. They dislike LeBron James too much to ever give him too much credit or props.

3. Lebron has fallen short in the playoffs numerous times in ways that Jordan didn't during the course of his career, and there's nothing James can do from now until the end of his career that can change that.

Can you describe the ways that LeBron has fallen short in the playoffs that Jordan didn't? Are you talking about stuff like losing in the Finals at age 23 with a mediocre supporting cast? If so you have a point, LeBron definitely fell short there in a way that Jordan didn't, because Jordan's team went 30-52 when he was 23.

I was thinking more like the two playoff series against Boston where he played like crap and lost. 1 time not even needing 7 games to get his ### bounced like a chump, as the 1 seed, after playing like crap. Mostly those.

Ah, I see. You're right. He should have played worse during the regular season so that when his team got bounced in the playoffs during his age 25 and age 26 seasons just like Jordan's team it wouldn't have looked as bad. Although he probably would have had to tank a bit more during the playoffs too, since Jordan's team got bumped in 5 games in his age 25 season and 6 games in his age 26 season.

Cut him some slack though, will you? He was just a kid. He didn't realize he needed to play poorly enough to be the 2/3 seed instead of the 1 and lose in 5 and 6 games instead of 6 and 7.

No, he should have decided to play like a world class player. No shame in playing well and still losing - there is shame in playing like a chump when you're supposed to be the best player on the planet. Even not boarding the plane would have damaged his legacy less than what happened on the court in those games. No, I won't cut him slack, you don't get slack in a GOAT discussion.

I see. So ... like Jordan's 8-20, 7 rebound, 3 assist, 5 turnover game in a 22 point loss in Game 3 in 1988 vs Detroit with the series tied 1-1? Something more like that?

Or how about Game 4 in 1989 vs Detroit, when the Bulls were up 2-1 and Jordan put up 5-15, 2 rebounds, 4 assists and 5 fouls at home to let the Pistons back in a series they ultimately won in 6?

Or how about Game 5 of the East Finals in 1990, with the series tied 2-2 Jordan put up 7-19, 4 rebounds and 8 assists in a 14 point loss. His second stinker of that series, by the way, he also sucked by his/LeBron's standards in the Game 2 loss.

That's the kind of effort you're looking for?

 

[JMon348]

Lol, this is deja vu.

 

[DrJ]

Well, I agree that Kareem is underrated (I consider him a top 3 player all-time), and my beef is with these "James won't ever be as good as Jordan no matter what" people. They are basically admitting one or two things:

1. That they are so all over Jordan's nut sack that they refuse to accept that anybody could ever be as good or better than him, no matter what happens.

2. They dislike LeBron James too much to ever give him too much credit or props.

3. Lebron has fallen short in the playoffs numerous times in ways that Jordan didn't during the course of his career, and there's nothing James can do from now until the end of his career that can change that.

Can you describe the ways that LeBron has fallen short in the playoffs that Jordan didn't? Are you talking about stuff like losing in the Finals at age 23 with a mediocre supporting cast? If so you have a point, LeBron definitely fell short there in a way that Jordan didn't, because Jordan's team went 30-52 when he was 23.

I was thinking more like the two playoff series against Boston where he played like crap and lost. 1 time not even needing 7 games to get his ### bounced like a chump, as the 1 seed, after playing like crap. Mostly those.

Ah, I see. You're right. He should have played worse during the regular season so that when his team got bounced in the playoffs during his age 25 and age 26 seasons just like Jordan's team it wouldn't have looked as bad. Although he probably would have had to tank a bit more during the playoffs too, since Jordan's team got bumped in 5 games in his age 25 season and 6 games in his age 26 season.

Cut him some slack though, will you? He was just a kid. He didn't realize he needed to play poorly enough to be the 2/3 seed instead of the 1 and lose in 5 and 6 games instead of 6 and 7.

No, he should have decided to play like a world class player. No shame in playing well and still losing - there is shame in playing like a chump when you're supposed to be the best player on the planet. Even not boarding the plane would have damaged his legacy less than what happened on the court in those games. No, I won't cut him slack, you don't get slack in a GOAT discussion.

I see. So ... like Jordan's 8-20, 7 rebound, 3 assist, 5 turnover game in a 22 point loss in Game 3 in 1988 vs Detroit with the series tied 1-1? Something more like that?

Or how about Game 4 in 1989 vs Detroit, when the Bulls were up 2-1 and Jordan put up 5-15, 2 rebounds, 4 assists and 5 fouls at home to let the Pistons back in a series they ultimately won in 6?

Or how about Game 5 of the East Finals in 1990, with the series tied 2-2 Jordan put up 7-19, 4 rebounds and 8 assists in a 14 point loss. His second stinker of that series, by the way, he also sucked by his/LeBron's standards in the Game 2 loss.

That's the kind of effort you're looking for?

I was thinking more like 2 of 18 for 12 points, like James did against Boston - only to follow that up with 6 for 24 for 21 pts, 5 for 16 for 21 pts, and 7 for 20 for 21 point performances. Jordan was never able to sustain that level of suck for that long. Or single-handedly cost his team a series like that.

Or maybe something like what James did against Dallas - 6 for 14 for 17 pts, 3 for 11 for 8 pts, 8 of 19 for 17 pts... just laying goose eggs in the middle of a final series. Again, a level of suck that Jordan could never come close to maintaining.

 

[AAABatteries]

LeBron James

Wilt Chamberlain

Shaquille O' Neil

Kareem Abdul Jabbar

I would take any of these 4 players on my team before I would take Michael Jordan. I would also strongly consider Magic Johnson and Tim Duncan.

LeBron has been more valuable than Michael Jordan for about 4-5 years now.

I don't think I ever pile on like others do with your posts but this post has me reconsidering. Are you seriously saying that you either don't have Jordan in your top-5 players or just barely in the top-5?

 

[TobiasFunke]

I was thinking more like 2 of 18 for 12 points, like James did against Boston - only to follow that up with 6 for 24 for 21 pts, 5 for 16 for 21 pts, and 7 for 20 for 21 point performances. Jordan was never able to sustain that level of suck for that long. Or single-handedly cost his team a series like that.

Or maybe something like what James did against Dallas - 6 for 14 for 17 pts, 3 for 11 for 8 pts, 8 of 19 for 17 pts... just laying goose eggs in the middle of a final series. Again, a level of suck that Jordan could never come close to maintaining.

Didn't James' team win some of those games? Are you saying he should have shot more, even if the shots he had available were worse than the shots his teammates had and cost his team a win, so that he could match Jordan's scoring output in playoff losses? That seems like a pretty terrible strategy.

The point is that the comparison is really stupid. Yes, Jordan did lots of things in his career, good and bad, that LeBron has not. And LeBron has done lots of things in his career, good and bad, that Jordan did not. That's why a statement like "Lebron has fallen short in the playoffs numerous times in ways that Jordan didn't during the course of his career, and there's nothing James can do from now until the end of his career that can change that" is silly. Because you can switch the names and say the exact same thing. It's a terrible argument.

 

[Todem]

I see why in the quoted posts I have Dr. J on Ignore.

Holy crap man. The worst!!!