*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (2 Viewers)

[TobiasFunke]

I think you overestimate the importance of being a glamor destination in the free agent game (see. eg. the Lakers' many misses over the last decade).

What "many misses" are you alluding to?

The fact that the Lakers are a toss up to land Melo and were one of only 4-5 teams to get a meeting with LeBron's agent is evidence of the opposite.

I can't list every prominent free agent they've pursued in the last decade, I don't have that kind of memory or insider access to front office conversations.

What I can do is list all the prominent free agents they've acquired in the last decade:

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I think you overestimate the importance of being a glamor destination in the free agent game (see. eg. the Lakers' many misses over the last decade).

What "many misses" are you alluding to?

The fact that the Lakers are a toss up to land Melo and were one of only 4-5 teams to get a meeting with LeBron's agent is evidence of the opposite.

And those will be considered misses if they don't sign.

 

[Timmay]

Raptors sign James Johnson to a 2 year deal.

ETA: 2/$5M

ugh...

He was damn good in Memphis last year... but he seems to be a pretty terrible person. Hopefully it isn't fully guaranteed.

The Grizz wanted to resign him and then the personal thing happened and they backed away.

If Toronto can keep him from doing stupid stuff irl, he is an asset especially at that price.

Rumour has it that is the same reason why they traded him to Sacremento in the first place. Wanted a bigger role, butted heads with Casey, etc. Toronto is in a much better spot than they were a couple years ago.

Toronto is quietly becoming one of the more active teams this offseason, even if it is mostly signing their own guys. Better signings than years past too. (Fields, Hedo, Kapono, Novak, Hansborough?)

 

[tommyGunZ]

I really think people are underestimating the Wiggins factor here. A year ago everyone was drooling over him. If you'd said last year he'd be going to the Cavs with Irving people would have said that was already a solid foundation for a contender in 3-4 seasons. I don't think his one year at Kansas should change that much, it wasn't a Harrison Barnes situation where it quickly becomes clear he has a lower ceiling than people thought. He looked pretty amazing at times.

Agree with this 100%. If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, the Cavs could be in for a DOMINANT run. NBA players are aware of how good Kyrie is - he's banging on the door of the elite club.

Imagine if Bennett is actually in shape and shows that last year was just a bad fluke. And the Cavs have Miami's first rounder next year?

Go home LeBron.

 

[got_nugs]

Lots of people going out on a limb here. Looking more and more likely that he's going to Cleveland. Seems like a big mistake to me, but I don't know the man.

Curious why you think it's a mistake. Seems like it's clearly a better destination basketball-wise for the next 4-5 years, and it's probably the only place he could go that would help him from a PR and legacy standpoint.

I gave a couple of reasons yesterday. First because I doubt he will win a ring right away there (whereas he has a very good chance with Miami this year), and second because I'm skeptical that even his presence in Cleveland will attract other big name free agents in the future: even with LeBron, it's still Cleveland.

I think the Wade factor looms large, here.

It's hard to imagine a scenario where the Heat/Spoelstra could manage him with even daintier kid gloves than they did this year, without rendering him completely useless. But even that wasn't enough to keep him from looking worn out and zombie-like by the end of the playoffs.

He doesn't seem to be injured so much as chronically disabled at this point. It's clearly manageable for him (his numbers looked good for the year, after all), but it's looking increasingly like his body is going to make it impossible to manage him in such a way that you can consider him a title run asset.

It's my opinion, but I watched most of every Heat game in the last 4 years, I thought Wade played pretty well when he played last year. He went 7-25 in the last 2 games and that's what everyone remembers. Did he play like one of the best rebounding and shot blocking SG in the history of the NBA like he was for 8 years? No. But he was considerably better than most are spewing now. I don't know if they'll force him to play limited games again as before. I don't think he was that poor other than missing shots at the rim in the last few games. Defense was suspect, though.

I'm still having difficulty getting past LeBron allowing Wade and UD to opt out. It's gonna be a fun day!

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

If Bosh and Lebron leave, wouldn't Miami's pick become top-10? I mean why would Miami do anything else?

 

[rodg12]

Lots of people going out on a limb here. Looking more and more likely that he's going to Cleveland. Seems like a big mistake to me, but I don't know the man.

Curious why you think it's a mistake. Seems like it's clearly a better destination basketball-wise for the next 4-5 years, and it's probably the only place he could go that would help him from a PR and legacy standpoint.

I gave a couple of reasons yesterday. First because I doubt he will win a ring right away there (whereas he has a very good chance with Miami this year), and second because I'm skeptical that even his presence in Cleveland will attract other big name free agents in the future: even with LeBron, it's still Cleveland.

I think the Wade factor looms large, here.

It's hard to imagine a scenario where the Heat/Spoelstra could manage him with even daintier kid gloves than they did this year, without rendering him completely useless. But even that wasn't enough to keep him from looking worn out and zombie-like by the end of the playoffs.

He doesn't seem to be injured so much as chronically disabled at this point. It's clearly manageable for him (his numbers looked good for the year, after all), but it's looking increasingly like his body is going to make it impossible to manage him in such a way that you can consider him a title run asset.

It's my opinion, but I watched most of every Heat game in the last 4 years, I thought Wade played pretty well when he played last year. He went 7-25 in the last 2 games and that's what everyone remembers. Did he play like one of the best rebounding and shot blocking SG in the history of the NBA like he was for 8 years? No. But he was considerably better than most are spewing now. I don't know if they'll force him to play limited games again as before. I don't think he was that poor other than missing shots at the rim in the last few games. Defense was suspect, though.

I'm still having difficulty getting past LeBron allowing Wade and UD to opt out. It's gonna be a fun day!

That's the rub, though. Did he look good in the regular season because he was rested a ton, and couldn't log the minutes needed in the playoffs which finally caught up with him? I'd lean toward that being the case.

 

[rodg12]

If Bosh and Lebron leave, wouldn't Miami's pick become top-10? I mean why would Miami do anything else?

Very likely it would be a top 10 pick. Could be top 5 if they don't do anything else of note.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I think you overestimate the importance of being a glamor destination in the free agent game (see. eg. the Lakers' many misses over the last decade).

What "many misses" are you alluding to?

The fact that the Lakers are a toss up to land Melo and were one of only 4-5 teams to get a meeting with LeBron's agent is evidence of the opposite.

I can't list every prominent free agent they've pursued in the last decade, I don't have that kind of memory or insider access to front office conversations.

What I can do is list all the prominent free agents they've acquired in the last decade:

You're wrong. They signed Kobe when he was a free agent in '04.

Since then, they've been maxed out salary wise every year. The only prominent miss was Dwight last year, which in retrospect is more about Dwight than LA.

 

[Village Idiot]

Lots of people going out on a limb here. Looking more and more likely that he's going to Cleveland. Seems like a big mistake to me, but I don't know the man.

Curious why you think it's a mistake. Seems like it's clearly a better destination basketball-wise for the next 4-5 years, and it's probably the only place he could go that would help him from a PR and legacy standpoint.

I gave a couple of reasons yesterday. First because I doubt he will win a ring right away there (whereas he has a very good chance with Miami this year), and second because I'm skeptical that even his presence in Cleveland will attract other big name free agents in the future: even with LeBron, it's still Cleveland.

I think the Wade factor looms large, here.

It's hard to imagine a scenario where the Heat/Spoelstra could manage him with even daintier kid gloves than they did this year, without rendering him completely useless. But even that wasn't enough to keep him from looking worn out and zombie-like by the end of the playoffs.

He doesn't seem to be injured so much as chronically disabled at this point. It's clearly manageable for him (his numbers looked good for the year, after all), but it's looking increasingly like his body is going to make it impossible to manage him in such a way that you can consider him a title run asset.

It's my opinion, but I watched most of every Heat game in the last 4 years, I thought Wade played pretty well when he played last year. He went 7-25 in the last 2 games and that's what everyone remembers. Did he play like one of the best rebounding and shot blocking SG in the history of the NBA like he was for 8 years? No. But he was considerably better than most are spewing now. I don't know if they'll force him to play limited games again as before. I don't think he was that poor other than missing shots at the rim in the last few games. Defense was suspect, though.

I'm still having difficulty getting past LeBron allowing Wade and UD to opt out. It's gonna be a fun day!

Do you think he will announce what he is doing today?

I'm a native Clevelander, Cavs fan living in Memphis and I have mixed feelings about this.

I want LeBron back in Cleveland but I'm still afraid Gilbert will find a way to blow it and the Cavs will never even make it to the NBA finals let alone win it all.

 

[got_nugs]

Yes, I absolutely think it'll be today. And i'm skeered, I wish I had Todem confidence....but unfortunately I don't know James or Riley personally.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I think you overestimate the importance of being a glamor destination in the free agent game (see. eg. the Lakers' many misses over the last decade).

What "many misses" are you alluding to?

The fact that the Lakers are a toss up to land Melo and were one of only 4-5 teams to get a meeting with LeBron's agent is evidence of the opposite.

And those will be considered misses if they don't sign.

Meanwhile the Raptors have the cap space to sign either Melo or LeBron, but weren't granted the opportunity to even present an offer. And no one even mentions it.

The idea that Los Angeles and the Laker franchise isn't a big draw in and of itself is crazy.

 

[Freelove]

Lots of people going out on a limb here. Looking more and more likely that he's going to Cleveland. Seems like a big mistake to me, but I don't know the man.

Curious why you think it's a mistake. Seems like it's clearly a better destination basketball-wise for the next 4-5 years, and it's probably the only place he could go that would help him from a PR and legacy standpoint.

I gave a couple of reasons yesterday. First because I doubt he will win a ring right away there (whereas he has a very good chance with Miami this year), and second because I'm skeptical that even his presence in Cleveland will attract other big name free agents in the future: even with LeBron, it's still Cleveland.

I think the Wade factor looms large, here.

It's hard to imagine a scenario where the Heat/Spoelstra could manage him with even daintier kid gloves than they did this year, without rendering him completely useless. But even that wasn't enough to keep him from looking worn out and zombie-like by the end of the playoffs.

He doesn't seem to be injured so much as chronically disabled at this point. It's clearly manageable for him (his numbers looked good for the year, after all), but it's looking increasingly like his body is going to make it impossible to manage him in such a way that you can consider him a title run asset.

It's my opinion, but I watched most of every Heat game in the last 4 years, I thought Wade played pretty well when he played last year. He went 7-25 in the last 2 games and that's what everyone remembers. Did he play like one of the best rebounding and shot blocking SG in the history of the NBA like he was for 8 years? No. But he was considerably better than most are spewing now. I don't know if they'll force him to play limited games again as before. I don't think he was that poor other than missing shots at the rim in the last few games. Defense was suspect, though.

I'm still having difficulty getting past LeBron allowing Wade and UD to opt out. It's gonna be a fun day!

That's sort of what I'm saying, though possibly I didn't say it elegantly enough.

Wade DID still look good when he played. And common wisdom is that IS because he was so carefully and Popovich-ly managed to preserve him. And he still DID look like ### by the end of the title run. Not just because of the poor shooting, either. He simply didn't appear to have the energy and explosiveness to contribute meaningfully by the Spurs series.

And that's without any suggestion that he was battling an injury, other than his already-acknowledged chronic wear and tear. That doesn't give me a lot of hope he's got the potential for any kind of rebound. I think he'll continue to be a good player when he can play, but can he play at that level while shouldering anything beyond 6th man minutes? I've got doubts at this point. Love Wade. Respect Wade. But don't think there's any reason for optimism that he can be a full-time part of an ongoing title pursuit at this point. I think he knows it, and I think he respect the game, and that's why he took the intentional and huge hit to his future paydays.

That team is still favorite to return to the finals if Lebron comes back. But I don't think there's any team with a chance to emerge from the West who they can expect to compete with unless Wade is miraculously 100%, which seems unlikely or impossible. I think Wade's still a great contributor, but I'm just not confident he's a title-run asset at this point, because I just don't think he's got a year-long body any more. :(

I just like LJ's chances against the West better with what Cleveland has to offer him. If they're not quite as talented top-to-bottom, they're a lot more likely to still be clicking on all cylinders by June of next year. All I'm sayin'.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

If Bosh and Lebron leave, wouldn't Miami's pick become top-10? I mean why would Miami do anything else?

Very likely it would be a top 10 pick. Could be top 5 if they don't do anything else of note.

Ok, thanks. Don't follow the NBA closely and wondered if I was missing something with the Cavs' guys talking about A,B,C plus Miami's 1st round pick.

 

[thecatch]

I think you overestimate the importance of being a glamor destination in the free agent game (see. eg. the Lakers' many misses over the last decade).

What "many misses" are you alluding to?The fact that the Lakers are a toss up to land Melo and were one of only 4-5 teams to get a meeting with LeBron's agent is evidence of the opposite.

And those will be considered misses if they don't sign.

Meanwhile the Raptors have the cap space to sign either Melo or LeBron, but weren't granted the opportunity to even present an offer. And no one even mentions it. The idea that Los Angeles and the Laker franchise isn't a big draw in and of itself is crazy.

No one mentions it because nobody pretends Toronto is a prime FA destination.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I think you overestimate the importance of being a glamor destination in the free agent game (see. eg. the Lakers' many misses over the last decade).

What "many misses" are you alluding to?

The fact that the Lakers are a toss up to land Melo and were one of only 4-5 teams to get a meeting with LeBron's agent is evidence of the opposite.

And those will be considered misses if they don't sign.

Meanwhile the Raptors have the cap space to sign either Melo or LeBron, but weren't granted the opportunity to even present an offer. And no one even mentions it.

The idea that Los Angeles and the Laker franchise isn't a big draw in and of itself is crazy.

Well for one, Toronto never had the cap space and two, Toronto got the exact same deal from Melo and LeBron that LA did.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I think you overestimate the importance of being a glamor destination in the free agent game (see. eg. the Lakers' many misses over the last decade).

What "many misses" are you alluding to?

The fact that the Lakers are a toss up to land Melo and were one of only 4-5 teams to get a meeting with LeBron's agent is evidence of the opposite.

I can't list every prominent free agent they've pursued in the last decade, I don't have that kind of memory or insider access to front office conversations.

What I can do is list all the prominent free agents they've acquired in the last decade:

You're wrong. They signed Kobe when he was a free agent in '04.

Since then, they've been maxed out salary wise every year. The only prominent miss was Dwight last year, which in retrospect is more about Dwight than LA.

Isn't that, to some extent, his point? It's always more about the player than the destination.

 

[pollardsvision]

Lots of people going out on a limb here. Looking more and more likely that he's going to Cleveland. Seems like a big mistake to me, but I don't know the man.

Curious why you think it's a mistake. Seems like it's clearly a better destination basketball-wise for the next 4-5 years, and it's probably the only place he could go that would help him from a PR and legacy standpoint.

I gave a couple of reasons yesterday. First because I doubt he will win a ring right away there (whereas he has a very good chance with Miami this year), and second because I'm skeptical that even his presence in Cleveland will attract other big name free agents in the future: even with LeBron, it's still Cleveland.

I agree on the "it's Cleveland" part, but not for the city. For the inept management.

As far as attracting big name FA's, they'll have 2 players eating up $40 mill of the cap starting next year. Maybe they get Love, but other than that it's not clear whether they would or should even be looking to bring in the sort of big ticket FA's (that often don't want to go to CLE). He can certainly get role players trying to chase a ring like they were getting in MIA.

With LeBron older, and Wiggins/Irving already better than any 2nd/3rd bananas he had in the 1st CLE go-round, I don't think LeBron will have any problem attracting the necessary players.

Now, whether Gilbert and Griffin will find some other way to screw things up is another story.

 

[Max Power]

Sounds like the Pelicans basically have to trade Rivers this week to finalize the Asik trade and get under the cap.

 

[got_nugs]

Cavs 1.7% chance of winning the draft lottery is about to turn into LeBron James & Kevin Love

 

[MAC_32]

I agree on the "it's Cleveland" part, but not for the city. For the inept management.

Yep. This city is awesome.

Cavs management though? Clown show.

 

[CBusAlex]

Wouldn't it be funny if he announced he was going to Europe for a couple or weeks and would decide later. The nba would be frozen.

If he really wants to win a title, he should just wait until 11:59pm on the trade deadline to sign. Half the league would get stuck with like three players on the roster.

 

[Peyton Marino]

I agree on the "it's Cleveland" part, but not for the city. For the inept management.

Yep. This city is awesome.

how u mean?

 

[MAC_32]

I agree on the "it's Cleveland" part, but not for the city. For the inept management.

Yep. This city is awesome.

how u mean?

Probably better for a different thread.

I kinda giggle when people not from around here talk down about this city. If you don't need an ocean, mountains, or to legally smoke up to be happy there's just about everything you'd want. Unless you're mormon. Then just move to Salt Lake City and enjoy inland paradise. It all comes down to would you rather deal with winter or horrendously hot summer's. I prefer the former.

 

[got_nugs]

Jim Rome ‏@jimrome 26s

Lebron's reportedly done meeting w/ teams? He hasn't even started. He'd leave Miami for a team he hasn't met with? Uh, Okay...

JIM ROME KNOWS EVERYTHING! WE LOVE YOU JIM!!!

 

[shader]

I really think people are underestimating the Wiggins factor here. A year ago everyone was drooling over him. If you'd said last year he'd be going to the Cavs with Irving people would have said that was already a solid foundation for a contender in 3-4 seasons. I don't think his one year at Kansas should change that much, it wasn't a Harrison Barnes situation where it quickly becomes clear he has a lower ceiling than people thought. He looked pretty amazing at times.

I totally agree. Wiggins is the X-factor. I personally really like the new head coach they hired too.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Why does he need to personally meet with people in Cleveland? What's he going to learn about Gilbert, the franchise, the facilities, the city, etc that he doesn't already know? Franchise direction, roster moves, and money are easy enough to do through two cans and a long-### string.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I agree on the "it's Cleveland" part, but not for the city. For the inept management.

Yep. This city is awesome.

how u mean?

Probably better for a different thread.I kinda giggle when people not from around here talk down about this city. If you don't need an ocean, mountains, or to legally smoke up to be happy there's just about everything you'd want. Unless you're mormon. Then just move to Salt Lake City and enjoy inland paradise. It all comes down to would you rather deal with winter or horrendously hot summer's. I prefer the former.

No it doesn't. There are places where you do not have to deal with either.

 

[[icon]]

What I can do is list all the prominent free agents they've acquired in the last decade:

You're wrong. They signed Kobe when he was a free agent in '04.

Since then, they've been maxed out salary wise every year. The only prominent miss was Dwight last year, which in retrospect is more about Dwight than LA.

05-14 = 10yrs aka decade HTH... and claiming a resigning of a career lakers guy as a prominent free agent signing.

And color me shocked they're maxed out on salary... what with KobMe's legendary fiscal flexibility.

 

[Gadzooks]

Sounds like the Pelicans basically have to trade Rivers this week to finalize the Asik trade and get under the cap.

And if that doesn't happen, and Asik isn't traded then that means no Bosh for Houston, correct? I was shaving and half paying attention last night when the fat dorky guy on ESPN was saying the only way Houston could sign Bosh and match Parsons was if Asik and Lin were traded and Bosh was signed before the 72 hour window to match Parsons was signed. Do I have that right? And does that mean Bosh will need to know what LeBron is doing within the next 72 hours so he can decide if he even wants to sign with Houston which I'm assuming means that if LeBron drags this out past 72 hours then Bosh can't get a max deal from Houston? Correct me if I'm wrong here Abe, but doesn't this whole LeBron thing put Houston in a precarious situation?

Also, say LeBron goes back to Miami and Bosh goes back too, does that mean Houston would look to get Love? If they match Parsons, they can't trade him so then would they look at a trade package focusing on Harden for Love? Would that make sense for Houston assuming that Asik and Lin are traded and they match Parsons offer?

 

[Abraham]

I think you overestimate the importance of being a glamor destination in the free agent game (see. eg. the Lakers' many misses over the last decade).

What "many misses" are you alluding to?

The fact that the Lakers are a toss up to land Melo and were one of only 4-5 teams to get a meeting with LeBron's agent is evidence of the opposite.

And those will be considered misses if they don't sign.

Meanwhile the Raptors have the cap space to sign either Melo or LeBron, but weren't granted the opportunity to even present an offer. And no one even mentions it.

The idea that Los Angeles and the Laker franchise isn't a big draw in and of itself is crazy.

Maybe they didn't want the opportunity. Maybe it wasn't their plan. Maybe they wanted to avoid the circus and focus on getting their own guys on board. For reference, Gordon hayward and Chandler Parsons are going to be making 3,000,000$ a year more than the league's third best point guard. Getting Lowry signed before the market went out of hand and/or before other suiters came available was very wise.

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Some teams are proceeding in a reality that only one team gets Lebron and only one team gets Melo.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

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[Kev4029]

I think you overestimate the importance of being a glamor destination in the free agent game (see. eg. the Lakers' many misses over the last decade).

What "many misses" are you alluding to?

The fact that the Lakers are a toss up to land Melo and were one of only 4-5 teams to get a meeting with LeBron's agent is evidence of the opposite.

And those will be considered misses if they don't sign.

Meanwhile the Raptors have the cap space to sign either Melo or LeBron, but weren't granted the opportunity to even present an offer. And no one even mentions it.

The idea that Los Angeles and the Laker franchise isn't a big draw in and of itself is crazy.

Maybe they didn't want the opportunity. Maybe it wasn't their plan. Maybe they wanted to avoid the circus and focus on getting their own guys on board. For reference, Gordon hayward and Chandler Parsons are going to be making 3,000,000$ a year more than the league's third best point guard. Getting Lowry signed before the market went out of hand and/or before other suiters came available was very wise.

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Some teams are proceeding in a reality that only one team gets Lebron and only one team gets Melo.

God dammit Abe.

 

[RUSF18]

Oh #### not again.

 

[hxperson]

I agree on the "it's Cleveland" part, but not for the city. For the inept management.

Yep. This city is awesome.

how u mean?

Probably better for a different thread.

I kinda giggle when people not from around here talk down about this city. If you don't need an ocean, mountains, or to legally smoke up to be happy there's just about everything you'd want. Unless you're mormon. Then just move to Salt Lake City and enjoy inland paradise. It all comes down to would you rather deal with winter or horrendously hot summer's. I prefer the former.

 

[Spartans Rule]

I really think people are underestimating the Wiggins factor here. A year ago everyone was drooling over him. If you'd said last year he'd be going to the Cavs with Irving people would have said that was already a solid foundation for a contender in 3-4 seasons. I don't think his one year at Kansas should change that much, it wasn't a Harrison Barnes situation where it quickly becomes clear he has a lower ceiling than people thought. He looked pretty amazing at times.

Agree with this 100%. If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, the Cavs could be in for a DOMINANT run. NBA players are aware of how good Kyrie is - he's banging on the door of the elite club.

Imagine if Bennett is actually in shape and shows that last year was just a bad fluke. And the Cavs have Miami's first rounder next year?

Go home LeBron.

If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, he'll do it about the time LeBron starts to decline. I wouldn't feel great about trying to contend with a 20-year-old as a key player.

If they can trade him for Love it would give them a much more solid window.

 

[Max Power]

Sounds like the Pelicans basically have to trade Rivers this week to finalize the Asik trade and get under the cap.

And if that doesn't happen, and Asik isn't traded then that means no Bosh for Houston, correct? I was shaving and half paying attention last night when the fat dorky guy on ESPN was saying the only way Houston could sign Bosh and match Parsons was if Asik and Lin were traded and Bosh was signed before the 72 hour window to match Parsons was signed. Do I have that right? And does that mean Bosh will need to know what LeBron is doing within the next 72 hours so he can decide if he even wants to sign with Houston which I'm assuming means that if LeBron drags this out past 72 hours then Bosh can't get a max deal from Houston? Correct me if I'm wrong here Abe, but doesn't this whole LeBron thing put Houston in a precarious situation?

Also, say LeBron goes back to Miami and Bosh goes back too, does that mean Houston would look to get Love? If they match Parsons, they can't trade him so then would they look at a trade package focusing on Harden for Love? Would that make sense for Houston assuming that Asik and Lin are traded and they match Parsons offer?

yep, for the Houston dream to come true they need to finalize the Asik trade, Trade Lin, Sign Bosh and then resign Parsons in the next 63 hours.

and Asik isn't going anywhere until Rivers or Anderson get traded

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

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Every time he posts on of those, I forgive him for one-for-one on his old Scola/guard/1st for a superstar trade suggestions.

 

[shader]

I really think people are underestimating the Wiggins factor here. A year ago everyone was drooling over him. If you'd said last year he'd be going to the Cavs with Irving people would have said that was already a solid foundation for a contender in 3-4 seasons. I don't think his one year at Kansas should change that much, it wasn't a Harrison Barnes situation where it quickly becomes clear he has a lower ceiling than people thought. He looked pretty amazing at times.

Agree with this 100%. If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, the Cavs could be in for a DOMINANT run. NBA players are aware of how good Kyrie is - he's banging on the door of the elite club.

Imagine if Bennett is actually in shape and shows that last year was just a bad fluke. And the Cavs have Miami's first rounder next year?

Go home LeBron.

If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, he'll do it about the time LeBron starts to decline. I wouldn't feel great about trying to contend with a 20-year-old as a key player.

If they can trade him for Love it would give them a much more solid window.

I think that is perfect for Lebron, actually. Wiggins doesn't need to be a superstar right now. He just needs to be a solid role player and let Lebron and Kyrie (and possibly Love) drive things. Then if Wiggins turns into a superstar, Lebron can watch his minutes and step up his game in the playoffs. A perfect recipe for Lebron to get 3-4 more rings.

 

[Abraham]

yep, for the Houston dream to come true they need to finalize the Asik trade, Trade Lin, Sign Bosh and then resign Parsons in the next 63 hours.

and Asik isn't going anywhere until Rivers or Anderson get traded

What if the secondary dream involves taking back Anderson? One of the most popular trades on Rockets boards for the last year has been Asik for Anderson. It's not Bosh, but it's far from a bad move.

 

[Freelove]

I really think people are underestimating the Wiggins factor here. A year ago everyone was drooling over him. If you'd said last year he'd be going to the Cavs with Irving people would have said that was already a solid foundation for a contender in 3-4 seasons. I don't think his one year at Kansas should change that much, it wasn't a Harrison Barnes situation where it quickly becomes clear he has a lower ceiling than people thought. He looked pretty amazing at times.

Agree with this 100%. If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, the Cavs could be in for a DOMINANT run. NBA players are aware of how good Kyrie is - he's banging on the door of the elite club.

Imagine if Bennett is actually in shape and shows that last year was just a bad fluke. And the Cavs have Miami's first rounder next year?

Go home LeBron.

If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, he'll do it about the time LeBron starts to decline. I wouldn't feel great about trying to contend with a 20-year-old as a key player.

If they can trade him for Love it would give them a much more solid window.

I dunno. Isn't that kind of every franchise's wet dream? One elite superstar, one second-tier star second banana, and a young guy the perfect age to pass the torch to if all goes well?

I mean, it only works out if it adds up to enough to eke out a title or two (or whatever). I'm not sure if I'm a Cleveland fan, that I'd be slam-dunk in support of moving the kid, even for Love.

As a fan of the game, I guess I'd like Love there better. The team defense would be atrocious, but Love's penchant for giving up on D assignments to rebound and outlet would be phenomenal to watch with Kyrie and Bron, and having three superstar scorers plus no defense might make them play a pretty exciting brand of Loyola-Marymount ball in order to win games.

But I'm not sure that team would be desperate for another 20+ scorer, and I'm not sure they'd be desperate for a rebounder, but they'd sure as hell miss Wiggins's D if it's anywhere near what it's advertised as. Love's by far the better all around player, for now at least, but I'm not sure he's a better match for what they'd need to contend. (ETA: not that it would necessarily matter how perfect a match Love would be, since James, plus Kyrie, plus Love would almost certainly be overwhelming enough to win titles even if it wasn't a perfectly constructed team concept.)

 

[Max Power]

yep, for the Houston dream to come true they need to finalize the Asik trade, Trade Lin, Sign Bosh and then resign Parsons in the next 63 hours.

and Asik isn't going anywhere until Rivers or Anderson get traded

What if the secondary dream involves taking back Anderson? One of the most popular trades on Rockets boards for the last year has been Asik for Anderson. It's not Bosh, but it's far from a bad move.

You'd have to think this is plan B. Anderson is a much better fit than Asik. I'd like that trade for both team.

 

[Peyton Marino]

I agree on the "it's Cleveland" part, but not for the city. For the inept management.

Yep. This city is awesome.

how u mean?

Probably better for a different thread.

I kinda giggle when people not from around here talk down about this city. If you don't need an ocean, mountains, or to legally smoke up to be happy there's just about everything you'd want. Unless you're mormon. Then just move to Salt Lake City and enjoy inland paradise. It all comes down to would you rather deal with winter or horrendously hot summer's. I prefer the former.

I'm from Ohio, have some friends from Cleveland, and have spent some time there. I think the city kind of sucks though i have limited exposure to it. My friends who are from there agree it sucks. I've never actually encountered someone from Cleveland who wouldn't admit it sucks. This is pretty incredible.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

I really think people are underestimating the Wiggins factor here. A year ago everyone was drooling over him. If you'd said last year he'd be going to the Cavs with Irving people would have said that was already a solid foundation for a contender in 3-4 seasons. I don't think his one year at Kansas should change that much, it wasn't a Harrison Barnes situation where it quickly becomes clear he has a lower ceiling than people thought. He looked pretty amazing at times.

Agree with this 100%. If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, the Cavs could be in for a DOMINANT run. NBA players are aware of how good Kyrie is - he's banging on the door of the elite club.

Imagine if Bennett is actually in shape and shows that last year was just a bad fluke. And the Cavs have Miami's first rounder next year?

Go home LeBron.

IIRC, the Miami pick is protected 1-10 for two more years, but if MIA brings Wade back that might be enough for them to go 37-45 and pick 12th.

CLE is also owed a future MEM first-rounder as thanks for eating some bad MEM contracts. The protections are for a year or two at the top and bottom of the first, something like 1-5 and 15-30.

Wiggins's big offensive weaknesses last year were dribbling in traffic and navigating zone defenses. Put him on a perimeter with LeBron and Irving, and he doesn't have to dribble much, and double-teaming him creates more problems than it solves. Wiggins instead spends his time on two big offensive strengths - moving without the ball and shooting off the pass. He will also be a plus defender out of the gate, helpful either to take some of the primary scorer defensive responsibility from LeBron or installing a trapping/swarming defense like what MIA has run the last couple seasons.

 

[NutterButter]

I really think people are underestimating the Wiggins factor here. A year ago everyone was drooling over him. If you'd said last year he'd be going to the Cavs with Irving people would have said that was already a solid foundation for a contender in 3-4 seasons. I don't think his one year at Kansas should change that much, it wasn't a Harrison Barnes situation where it quickly becomes clear he has a lower ceiling than people thought. He looked pretty amazing at times.

Agree with this 100%. If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, the Cavs could be in for a DOMINANT run. NBA players are aware of how good Kyrie is - he's banging on the door of the elite club.

Imagine if Bennett is actually in shape and shows that last year was just a bad fluke. And the Cavs have Miami's first rounder next year?

Go home LeBron.

If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, he'll do it about the time LeBron starts to decline. I wouldn't feel great about trying to contend with a 20-year-old as a key player.

If they can trade him for Love it would give them a much more solid window.

I dunno. Isn't that kind of every franchise's wet dream? One elite superstar, one second-tier star second banana, and a young guy the perfect age to pass the torch to if all goes well?

I mean, it only works out if it adds up to enough to eke out a title or two (or whatever). I'm not sure if I'm a Cleveland fan, that I'd be slam-dunk in support of moving the kid, even for Love.

As a fan of the game, I guess I'd like Love there better. The team defense would be atrocious, but Love's penchant for giving up on D assignments to rebound and outlet would be phenomenal to watch with Kyrie and Bron, and having three superstar scorers plus no defense might make them play a pretty exciting brand of Loyola-Marymount ball in order to win games.

But I'm not sure that team would be desperate for another 20+ scorer, and I'm not sure they'd be desperate for a rebounder, but they'd sure as hell miss Wiggins's D if it's anywhere near what it's advertised as. Love's by far the better all around player, for now at least, but I'm not sure he's a better match for what they'd need to contend. (ETA: not that it would necessarily matter how perfect a match Love would be, since James, plus Kyrie, plus Love would almost certainly be overwhelming enough to win titles even if it wasn't a perfectly constructed team concept.)

I was wondering myself if Wiggins for Love would be a no brainer. You'll lose Wiggins perimeter defense which means Lebron is back guarding the other teams best perimeter player and you're talking about more than twice the salary.

 

[sporthenry]

I really think people are underestimating the Wiggins factor here. A year ago everyone was drooling over him. If you'd said last year he'd be going to the Cavs with Irving people would have said that was already a solid foundation for a contender in 3-4 seasons. I don't think his one year at Kansas should change that much, it wasn't a Harrison Barnes situation where it quickly becomes clear he has a lower ceiling than people thought. He looked pretty amazing at times.

Agree with this 100%. If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, the Cavs could be in for a DOMINANT run. NBA players are aware of how good Kyrie is - he's banging on the door of the elite club.

Imagine if Bennett is actually in shape and shows that last year was just a bad fluke. And the Cavs have Miami's first rounder next year?

Go home LeBron.

If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, he'll do it about the time LeBron starts to decline. I wouldn't feel great about trying to contend with a 20-year-old as a key player.

If they can trade him for Love it would give them a much more solid window.

I dunno. Isn't that kind of every franchise's wet dream? One elite superstar, one second-tier star second banana, and a young guy the perfect age to pass the torch to if all goes well?

I mean, it only works out if it adds up to enough to eke out a title or two (or whatever). I'm not sure if I'm a Cleveland fan, that I'd be slam-dunk in support of moving the kid, even for Love.

As a fan of the game, I guess I'd like Love there better. The team defense would be atrocious, but Love's penchant for giving up on D assignments to rebound and outlet would be phenomenal to watch with Kyrie and Bron, and having three superstar scorers plus no defense might make them play a pretty exciting brand of Loyola-Marymount ball in order to win games.

But I'm not sure that team would be desperate for another 20+ scorer, and I'm not sure they'd be desperate for a rebounder, but they'd sure as hell miss Wiggins's D if it's anywhere near what it's advertised as. Love's by far the better all around player, for now at least, but I'm not sure he's a better match for what they'd need to contend. (ETA: not that it would necessarily matter how perfect a match Love would be, since James, plus Kyrie, plus Love would almost certainly be overwhelming enough to win titles even if it wasn't a perfectly constructed team concept.)

I think Wiggins for Love makes too much sense for both teams. Minnesota gets a potential stud to build around and Cleveland gets its big 3. Even if Wiggin's defense is as good as advertised, that is perhaps LeBron's biggest strength as well. Sure, they could lock down the wing but what teams really have two wings worth locking down? I guess LeBron could try and cover Parker/Westbrook if it gets to that but you're probably expending more energy on those guys than Leonard or maybe even Durant. And Wiggins offense is still very raw. Fun in transition but while his shot is pretty, it doesn't go in as much as it needs to.

If you take Love, your championship window opens immediately and stays open for at least the next 4-5 years. With Wiggins, I don't think you can realistically win next year and then it all depends on how well he develops. Just not worth the risk IMO that he struggles, however small that might be.

 

[NutterButter]

I really think people are underestimating the Wiggins factor here. A year ago everyone was drooling over him. If you'd said last year he'd be going to the Cavs with Irving people would have said that was already a solid foundation for a contender in 3-4 seasons. I don't think his one year at Kansas should change that much, it wasn't a Harrison Barnes situation where it quickly becomes clear he has a lower ceiling than people thought. He looked pretty amazing at times.

Agree with this 100%. If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, the Cavs could be in for a DOMINANT run. NBA players are aware of how good Kyrie is - he's banging on the door of the elite club.

Imagine if Bennett is actually in shape and shows that last year was just a bad fluke. And the Cavs have Miami's first rounder next year?

Go home LeBron.

If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, he'll do it about the time LeBron starts to decline. I wouldn't feel great about trying to contend with a 20-year-old as a key player.

If they can trade him for Love it would give them a much more solid window.

I dunno. Isn't that kind of every franchise's wet dream? One elite superstar, one second-tier star second banana, and a young guy the perfect age to pass the torch to if all goes well?

I mean, it only works out if it adds up to enough to eke out a title or two (or whatever). I'm not sure if I'm a Cleveland fan, that I'd be slam-dunk in support of moving the kid, even for Love.

As a fan of the game, I guess I'd like Love there better. The team defense would be atrocious, but Love's penchant for giving up on D assignments to rebound and outlet would be phenomenal to watch with Kyrie and Bron, and having three superstar scorers plus no defense might make them play a pretty exciting brand of Loyola-Marymount ball in order to win games.

But I'm not sure that team would be desperate for another 20+ scorer, and I'm not sure they'd be desperate for a rebounder, but they'd sure as hell miss Wiggins's D if it's anywhere near what it's advertised as. Love's by far the better all around player, for now at least, but I'm not sure he's a better match for what they'd need to contend. (ETA: not that it would necessarily matter how perfect a match Love would be, since James, plus Kyrie, plus Love would almost certainly be overwhelming enough to win titles even if it wasn't a perfectly constructed team concept.)

I think Wiggins for Love makes too much sense for both teams. Minnesota gets a potential stud to build around and Cleveland gets its big 3. Even if Wiggin's defense is as good as advertised, that is perhaps LeBron's biggest strength as well. Sure, they could lock down the wing but what teams really have two wings worth locking down? I guess LeBron could try and cover Parker/Westbrook if it gets to that but you're probably expending more energy on those guys than Leonard or maybe even Durant. And Wiggins offense is still very raw. Fun in transition but while his shot is pretty, it doesn't go in as much as it needs to.

If you take Love, your championship window opens immediately and stays open for at least the next 4-5 years. With Wiggins, I don't think you can realistically win next year and then it all depends on how well he develops. Just not worth the risk IMO that he struggles, however small that might be.

nice thing about having someone else to do the heavy lifting on D is that lebron can focus all his energies on the O. That was quite some double duty he had to perform in Miami.

 

[Spartans Rule]

I really think people are underestimating the Wiggins factor here. A year ago everyone was drooling over him. If you'd said last year he'd be going to the Cavs with Irving people would have said that was already a solid foundation for a contender in 3-4 seasons. I don't think his one year at Kansas should change that much, it wasn't a Harrison Barnes situation where it quickly becomes clear he has a lower ceiling than people thought. He looked pretty amazing at times.

Agree with this 100%. If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, the Cavs could be in for a DOMINANT run. NBA players are aware of how good Kyrie is - he's banging on the door of the elite club.

Imagine if Bennett is actually in shape and shows that last year was just a bad fluke. And the Cavs have Miami's first rounder next year?

Go home LeBron.

If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, he'll do it about the time LeBron starts to decline. I wouldn't feel great about trying to contend with a 20-year-old as a key player.

If they can trade him for Love it would give them a much more solid window.

I think that is perfect for Lebron, actually. Wiggins doesn't need to be a superstar right now. He just needs to be a solid role player and let Lebron and Kyrie (and possibly Love) drive things. Then if Wiggins turns into a superstar, Lebron can watch his minutes and step up his game in the playoffs. A perfect recipe for Lebron to get 3-4 more rings.

How many solid 20-year-old role players have you seen in the NBA? You're going to get a lot of inconsistency and inefficiency from Wiggins for a couple years at least. He's not going to be a mature, polished player just because he's not asked to be a star.

Maybe it works out where they win a bunch of titles and make a seamless transition from LeBron to Wiggins as the top guy, but I think more likely they'd have a bunch of near-misses because they're never both great at the same time.

 

[got_nugs]

nice thing about having someone else to do the heavy lifting on D is that lebron can focus all his energies on the O. That was quite some double duty he had to perform in Miami.

WHERE WAS THIS HEAVY LIFTING AGAINST DALLAS? OR THE CLANK OFF THE RIM, REBOUND BY BOSH, MIRACLE 3 BY ALLEN GAME 6?! HE'S NO MJ! #hedgingincaseheleaves

 

[GroveDiesel]

I agree on the "it's Cleveland" part, but not for the city. For the inept management.

Yep. This city is awesome.

how u mean?

Probably better for a different thread.I kinda giggle when people not from around here talk down about this city. If you don't need an ocean, mountains, or to legally smoke up to be happy there's just about everything you'd want. Unless you're mormon. Then just move to Salt Lake City and enjoy inland paradise. It all comes down to would you rather deal with winter or horrendously hot summer's. I prefer the former.

I'm from Ohio, have some friends from Cleveland, and have spent some time there. I think the city kind of sucks though i have limited exposure to it. My friends who are from there agree it sucks. I've never actually encountered someone from Cleveland who wouldn't admit it sucks. This is pretty incredible.

Cleveland has actually improved a ton in just the last 2-3 years. The healthcare industry has grown a ton there and revitalized the economy quite a bit. It's much cleaner and brighter downtown now and the restaurant scene has gotten pretty decent headlined by Michael Symon.

It will never compete with NYC, Miami, or San Diego, but there are definitely argument for why it's better than cities like Philly, Chicago, Boston and even LA IMO.