*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (3 Viewers)

[tom22406]

Did anyone catch the Grantland ESPN show yesterday with Simmons praising James Harden?

He was showing some stats about how much Harden drives the 3 point shooting for the Rockets,anybody got a link for those?I found it very interesting how much he was ahead of the rest of league in doing this for his team.

I still don't buy Harden has turned into this better defensive player that I keep hearing but no doubting what he brings on offense.

It really wouldn't be possible for him to get worse.

Yeah I'm not doubting the defensive side but what about the point Simmons was making about his 3 point production for the team?Got any stats for those and for the rest of the league,sounds like assisted 3's +made 3's.

 

[Sammy3469]

TRE>>>>MOZGOV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!15151515151515151515151515151515

FearTheSword @FearTheSword · 11h 11 hours ago

Rim Protection? With Timofey Mozgov on the floor, the Bulls shot 5 of 20 on shots within 5 feet. 5 of 7 with him off

FearTheSword @FearTheSword · 11h 11 hours ago

Overall they shot 31.6% in 33 minutes with him on the court, and 52.2% in the 15 minutes he was on the bench.
TIM-O-FAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Also note as bad as the Cavs have been, they are still 21-12 when Lebron plays and 6-3 against ATL-TOR-WAS-CHI

I have to look up the current numbers again, but they were actually a pretty decent (or decent enough) defensive team with Thompson on the floor for Varejao even before they started moving pieces. So I'm not surprised that they've persisted with someone dedicated to doing "dirty-work". I think the bigger issue is if Love's back will continue to give him problems. More than anything they just need more run.

 

[TobiasFunke]

TRE>>>>MOZGOV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!15151515151515151515151515151515

FearTheSword @FearTheSword · 11h 11 hours ago

Rim Protection? With Timofey Mozgov on the floor, the Bulls shot 5 of 20 on shots within 5 feet. 5 of 7 with him off

FearTheSword @FearTheSword · 11h 11 hours ago

Overall they shot 31.6% in 33 minutes with him on the court, and 52.2% in the 15 minutes he was on the bench.
TIM-O-FAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Also note as bad as the Cavs have been, they are still 21-12 when Lebron plays and 6-3 against ATL-TOR-WAS-CHI

I'm starting to think they're gonna end the season as the second-best team in the East. But I think they're problem isn't where they'll end up in terms of quality but where they'll end up in terms of seeding. Unless they go on a miraculous second-half run they're likely going to have to face three of those teams in a row to reach the Finals, possibly without HCA in any of them. My guess is they'll still be favored in at least 2 of the 3 series, possibly all three, but facing three different teams with a legit shot to beat you is brutal. Their early season woes have basically turned them into a Western Conference team in terms of their path to the Finals.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Did anyone catch the Grantland ESPN show yesterday with Simmons praising James Harden?

He was showing some stats about how much Harden drives the 3 point shooting for the Rockets,anybody got a link for those?I found it very interesting how much he was ahead of the rest of league in doing this for his team.

I still don't buy Harden has turned into this better defensive player that I keep hearing but no doubting what he brings on offense.

It really wouldn't be possible for him to get worse.

Yeah I'm not doubting the defensive side but what about the point Simmons was making about his 3 point production for the team?Got any stats for those and for the rest of the league,sounds like assisted 3's +made 3's.

Haven't watched the show so I'm not sure what he was referring to.

Houston jacks up a ridiculous amount of 3's (almost 300 more than the #2 team) so if he was using counting stats, it would make for some gaudy numbers. Houston is middle of the pack for 3FGM %AST; just about tied with the Knicks.

 

[rodg12]

Did anyone catch the Grantland ESPN show yesterday with Simmons praising James Harden?

He was showing some stats about how much Harden drives the 3 point shooting for the Rockets,anybody got a link for those?I found it very interesting how much he was ahead of the rest of league in doing this for his team.

I still don't buy Harden has turned into this better defensive player that I keep hearing but no doubting what he brings on offense.

It really wouldn't be possible for him to get worse.

Yeah I'm not doubting the defensive side but what about the point Simmons was making about his 3 point production for the team?Got any stats for those and for the rest of the league,sounds like assisted 3's +made 3's.

Haven't watched the show so I'm not sure what he was referring to.

Houston jacks up a ridiculous amount of 3's (almost 300 more than the #2 team) so if he was using counting stats, it would make for some gaudy numbers. Houston is middle of the pack for 3FGM %AST; just about tied with the Knicks.

I'm sure it all came from Goldsberry's article on Grantland here.

ETA: Stats from the article....

The top 3-point assisters, as of January 4:

1. Harden – 113

2. Ty Lawson – 105

3. John Wall – 93

4. Rajon Rondo – 89

5. Eric Bledsoe – 86

The top corner-3 assisters, as of January 4:

1. James Harden – 58

2. Ty Lawson – 40

3. John Wall – 39

4. LeBron James – 34

5. Josh Smith – 31

The top 3-point producers (made 3s + assisted 3s), as of January 4:

1. James Harden – 195

2. Damian Lillard – 170

3. Stephen Curry – 159

4. Kyle Lowry – 141

5. Ty Lawson – 138

 

[Instinctive]

All those stats are updated in the Lillard article posted today: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/damian-lillard-portland-trail-blazers-fourth-quarter/

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Did anyone catch the Grantland ESPN show yesterday with Simmons praising James Harden?

He was showing some stats about how much Harden drives the 3 point shooting for the Rockets,anybody got a link for those?I found it very interesting how much he was ahead of the rest of league in doing this for his team.

I still don't buy Harden has turned into this better defensive player that I keep hearing but no doubting what he brings on offense.

It really wouldn't be possible for him to get worse.

Yeah I'm not doubting the defensive side but what about the point Simmons was making about his 3 point production for the team?Got any stats for those and for the rest of the league,sounds like assisted 3's +made 3's.

Haven't watched the show so I'm not sure what he was referring to.

Houston jacks up a ridiculous amount of 3's (almost 300 more than the #2 team) so if he was using counting stats, it would make for some gaudy numbers. Houston is middle of the pack for 3FGM %AST; just about tied with the Knicks.

I'm sure it all came from Goldsberry's article on Grantland here.

ETA: Stats from the article....

The top 3-point assisters, as of January 4:

1. Harden – 113

2. Ty Lawson – 105

3. John Wall – 93

4. Rajon Rondo – 89

5. Eric Bledsoe – 86

The top corner-3 assisters, as of January 4:

1. James Harden – 58

2. Ty Lawson – 40

3. John Wall – 39

4. LeBron James – 34

5. Josh Smith – 31

The top 3-point producers (made 3s + assisted 3s), as of January 4:

1. James Harden – 195

2. Damian Lillard – 170

3. Stephen Curry – 159

4. Kyle Lowry – 141

5. Ty Lawson – 138

Yeah, not really surprising since Harden is the primary ball-handler in an offense dedicated to jacking up 3's. If they used % I'd bet those lists would look quite different.

 

[Village Idiot]

The Knicks record at points this season has been;

1-1

2-4

3-9

4-16

5-25

6-36

Next stop 7-49 then 8-64?

Math says yes, reality says probably not?

 

[Kev4029]

Yeah, not really surprising since Harden is the primary ball-handler in an offense dedicated to jacking up 3's. If they used % I'd bet those lists would look quite different.

The argument is that Harden is the reason they are dedicated to jacking up 3's. His combination of driving skills and shooting stroke open the team up to shooting an ungodly amount of threes. This year's Rockets have already taken more threes than the Rockets did the entire year before Harden got there (strike season, about 25 more games). The management and coach were there four years ago and had the same ideas with a team plenty capable of shooting (Lowry, Parsons, Dragic, Lee, Budinger, Martin).

 

[SWC]

nice game for the dinosaurs last night i thought the bucks had a shot but they just did not have enough to get over the top hey no matter what i will take the bucks this year they are playing hard and staying in every game i can not ask for a lot more when you are coming off of a thirteen win season and your rookie of the year guy went down all year and your center is a head case from the sixth dimension who does not really like basketball or rashoinal thinking take that to the bank brohanskievs

 

[tom22406]

Did anyone catch the Grantland ESPN show yesterday with Simmons praising James Harden?

He was showing some stats about how much Harden drives the 3 point shooting for the Rockets,anybody got a link for those?I found it very interesting how much he was ahead of the rest of league in doing this for his team.

I still don't buy Harden has turned into this better defensive player that I keep hearing but no doubting what he brings on offense.

It really wouldn't be possible for him to get worse.

Yeah I'm not doubting the defensive side but what about the point Simmons was making about his 3 point production for the team?Got any stats for those and for the rest of the league,sounds like assisted 3's +made 3's.

Haven't watched the show so I'm not sure what he was referring to.

Houston jacks up a ridiculous amount of 3's (almost 300 more than the #2 team) so if he was using counting stats, it would make for some gaudy numbers. Houston is middle of the pack for 3FGM %AST; just about tied with the Knicks.

I'm sure it all came from Goldsberry's article on Grantland here.

ETA: Stats from the article....

The top 3-point assisters, as of January 4:

1. Harden – 113

2. Ty Lawson – 105

3. John Wall – 93

4. Rajon Rondo – 89

5. Eric Bledsoe – 86

The top corner-3 assisters, as of January 4:

1. James Harden – 58

2. Ty Lawson – 40

3. John Wall – 39

4. LeBron James – 34

5. Josh Smith – 31

The top 3-point producers (made 3s + assisted 3s), as of January 4:

1. James Harden – 195

2. Damian Lillard – 170

3. Stephen Curry – 159

4. Kyle Lowry – 141

5. Ty Lawson – 138

Did anyone catch the Grantland ESPN show yesterday with Simmons praising James Harden?

He was showing some stats about how much Harden drives the 3 point shooting for the Rockets,anybody got a link for those?I found it very interesting how much he was ahead of the rest of league in doing this for his team.

I still don't buy Harden has turned into this better defensive player that I keep hearing but no doubting what he brings on offense.

It really wouldn't be possible for him to get worse.

Yeah I'm not doubting the defensive side but what about the point Simmons was making about his 3 point production for the team?Got any stats for those and for the rest of the league,sounds like assisted 3's +made 3's.

Haven't watched the show so I'm not sure what he was referring to.

Houston jacks up a ridiculous amount of 3's (almost 300 more than the #2 team) so if he was using counting stats, it would make for some gaudy numbers. Houston is middle of the pack for 3FGM %AST; just about tied with the Knicks.

I'm sure it all came from Goldsberry's article on Grantland here.

ETA: Stats from the article....

The top 3-point assisters, as of January 4:

1. Harden – 113

2. Ty Lawson – 105

3. John Wall – 93

4. Rajon Rondo – 89

5. Eric Bledsoe – 86

The top corner-3 assisters, as of January 4:

1. James Harden – 58

2. Ty Lawson – 40

3. John Wall – 39

4. LeBron James – 34

5. Josh Smith – 31

The top 3-point producers (made 3s + assisted 3s), as of January 4:

1. James Harden – 195

2. Damian Lillard – 170

3. Stephen Curry – 159

4. Kyle Lowry – 141

5. Ty Lawson – 138

Exactly what I was looking for,thank you.

 

[Moe.]

The Roberson stuff is just beyond explanation at this point. Stupefying.

 

[rodg12]

Exactly what I was looking for,thank you.

Hey man...you keep doing all the heavy lifting in the yoga pants thread, and I'll find whatever NBA stats you need.

 

[No. 16]

Korver is pretty good.

Top 10 Leaders in True Shooting Percentage

• Kyle Korver-ATL .740
• Tyson Chandler-DAL .708
• Kevin Durant-OKC .678
• DeAndre Jordan-LAC .662
• Tyler Zeller-BOS .636
• Stephen Curry-GSW .635
• J.J. Redick-LAC .624
• Matt Barnes-LAC .624
• Anthony Davis-NOP .616
• Jonas Valanciunas-TOR .614

Highest ever in a single season is .708. Held by Tyson Chandler.

Durant, Curry, and Davis are still more impressive to me considering volume.Korver is shooting great, but he's still only averaging 13 ppg. He basically takes 2 shots a quarter in the flow of a great offense.

He's a good player, but I think he gets too much hype/credit when Horford, Milsap, and Teague are true talents.

Korver has made 125 threes this year, on pace for the 6th most ever, while shooting the best percentage in the history of the NBA from 3 (besting his own record by .0001). I still think that Curry is the better shooter, but I don't think that Korver is getting enough credit for what he's doing.

ETA: He is also on pace for the 2nd 50/50/90 season ever. Steve Kerr was a man before his time.

Horford, Millsap and Teague are all excellent players but Korver's presence makes them much much better. He's a game-changer, and not just in the half-court. In transition you'd rather give up a lightly contested layup than an open Korver 3, which is just silly.

I'll agree Korver makes the team more efficient because of his shooting, but he doesn't make his teammates better. He's a function of the offense. You could fill Danny Green, Anthony Morrow, or any 3 point shooter and get the same effect of spreading the floor....they may not shoot as efficiently but they'll get the same shots. 95% of Korver's 3pt are assisted.

Don't get me wrong Korver is good at what he does, but shot creation is a far harder and more important skill in the NBA.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I'll agree Korver makes the team more efficient because of his shooting, but he doesn't make his teammates better. He's a function of the offense. You could fill Danny Green, Anthony Morrow, or any 3 point shooter and get the same effect of spreading the floor....they may not shoot as efficiently but they'll get the same shots. 95% of Korver's 3pt are assisted.Don't get me wrong Korver is good at what he does, but shot creation is a far harder and more important skill in the NBA.

I came across this post right after I read this fun article/exercise naming an all-star team solely out of first-timers. Here's the Korver section:

Most of the guys on this list have made a major leap in recent years, often by adding some new dimension to their games, and are awaiting the recognition that one day might come with it. Not so with Kyle Korver. He’s the same guy he’s always been, just a better version of it. Korver takes approximately one three-pointer for every six minutes he spends on the court, and, so far this year, has made 53.6 percent of them. As of this writing, his three-point percentage would be the league’s 14th-best field goal percentage and the 13 players he trails include Kevin Durant and 12 big men. That’s insane.

Korver is outstanding off the catch, outstanding in the face of tight close-outs, and just generally outstanding at shooting from distance. His current true shooting percentage of 73.9 percent wouldn’t just break Tyson Chandler’s single-season NBA record of 70.8 percent, it would obliterate it.

Korver’s also an underrated passer and defensive rebounder for a guy with his playing style. He’s a historically underrated offensive weapon, and he’s absolutely the second-best Eastern Conference wing to have never made an All-Star team.

As for making his teammates better (aside for the passing and rebounding), there is no way that guys shooting 40% from three would have the same impact on the defense as a guy shooting 53% from three. With Green or Morrow you have to put yourself in position to close out quickly. With Korver you actually have to try to deny him the ball.

I think maybe you see the catch and shoot numbers and think he's camped out in the corner spreading the floor? That's not what he does. They run all kinds of crazy stuff for him that opens up the floor for everyone. Zach Lowe did a good breakdown of what he does for the offense last summer, even before he took his game to another level. He also mentions there that 60% of his threes are moving shots, not catch and shoot, which is absurd and nothing like the spread-the-floor corner 3 specialists. In a similar vein, because it's apparently Kyle Korver week on the internet I also saw this nugget on Twitter this morning:

Kyle Korver's average touch time before shooting is 1.04 seconds... Quickest in the league with a minimum 250 shots.

So you've got the highest 3 Pt % in the league by a decent margin, and he's doing it on moving shots with quite possibly the quickest release in the league.

Nobody's trying to say he's better at basketball than Steph Curry. But you can't replace a guy that shoots 53% from three, while usually moving, with a lightning-fast release, with guys who usually have to square themselves before shooting 10-15% lower from threes (the difference between Korver and Morrow is bigger than the difference between Morrow and Josh Smith) and tell me the defense is just gonna shrug their shoulders as if nothing has changed.

 

[No. 16]

I'll agree Korver makes the team more efficient because of his shooting, but he doesn't make his teammates better. He's a function of the offense. You could fill Danny Green, Anthony Morrow, or any 3 point shooter and get the same effect of spreading the floor....they may not shoot as efficiently but they'll get the same shots. 95% of Korver's 3pt are assisted.Don't get me wrong Korver is good at what he does, but shot creation is a far harder and more important skill in the NBA.

I came across this post right after I read this fun article/exercise naming an all-star team solely out of first-timers. Here's the Korver section:

Most of the guys on this list have made a major leap in recent years, often by adding some new dimension to their games, and are awaiting the recognition that one day might come with it. Not so with Kyle Korver. He’s the same guy he’s always been, just a better version of it. Korver takes approximately one three-pointer for every six minutes he spends on the court, and, so far this year, has made 53.6 percent of them. As of this writing, his three-point percentage would be the league’s 14th-best field goal percentage and the 13 players he trails include Kevin Durant and 12 big men. That’s insane.

Korver is outstanding off the catch, outstanding in the face of tight close-outs, and just generally outstanding at shooting from distance. His current true shooting percentage of 73.9 percent wouldn’t just break Tyson Chandler’s single-season NBA record of 70.8 percent, it would obliterate it.

Korver’s also an underrated passer and defensive rebounder for a guy with his playing style. He’s a historically underrated offensive weapon, and he’s absolutely the second-best Eastern Conference wing to have never made an All-Star team.

As for making his teammates better (aside for the passing and rebounding), there is no way that guys shooting 40% from three would have the same impact on the defense as a guy shooting 53% from three. With Green or Morrow you have to put yourself in position to close out quickly. With Korver you actually have to try to deny him the ball.

I think maybe you see the catch and shoot numbers and think he's camped out in the corner spreading the floor? That's not what he does. They run all kinds of crazy stuff for him that opens up the floor for everyone. Zach Lowe did a good breakdown of what he does for the offense last summer, even before he took his game to another level. He also mentions there that 60% of his threes are moving shots, not catch and shoot, which is absurd and nothing like the spread-the-floor corner 3 specialists. In a similar vein, because it's apparently Kyle Korver week on the internet I also saw this nugget on Twitter this morning:

Kyle Korver's average touch time before shooting is 1.04 seconds... Quickest in the league with a minimum 250 shots.

So you've got the highest 3 Pt % in the league by a decent margin, and he's doing it on moving shots with quite possibly the quickest release in the league.

Nobody's trying to say he's better at basketball than Steph Curry. But you can't replace a guy that shoots 53% from three, while usually moving, with a lightning-fast release, with guys who usually have to square themselves before shooting 10-15% lower from threes (the difference between Korver and Morrow is bigger than the difference between Morrow and Josh Smith) and tell me the defense is just gonna shrug their shoulders as if nothing has changed.

I get all you're saying, Korver is good but again he's merely a function of the system he's in. He's like the perimeter version of Brandan Wright on the Mavs. Put them in the right offenses which accentuates their skills and they are uber productive (I wanted to use Chandler as a comparison, but Chandler's defense is his true value). If you want to look at the Mavs someone like Monta is a great comparison... they've had bankable NBA offensive skills their entire lives but they've excelled in the perfect ecosystems.

Kyle Korver's career 3 point % is 43%. He's always been a great 3 pointer shooter. No one can take that away from him. His first year in ATL without Coach Bud he still shot 45%. Great, but not too far from guys like Morrow or Danny Green, etc. With Coach Bud on board Korver shot 47% last year (his highest with >200 3PA, shot 59/110 in 09-10 with Jazz) and he's on fire this year.

Sure Korver has improved, but is it enough to ignore the previous 9 seasons of his career? I'd rather have Korver over Marrow, but this Hawks team is able to go because of Coach Bud, Horford, and Milsap. Teague is good, but the NBA pg depth is just ridiculous. Teague is replaceable. With that said Teague's shot creation is still more valuable to the team than Korver's "gravity".

 

[AAABatteries]

I'll agree Korver makes the team more efficient because of his shooting, but he doesn't make his teammates better. He's a function of the offense. You could fill Danny Green, Anthony Morrow, or any 3 point shooter and get the same effect of spreading the floor....they may not shoot as efficiently but they'll get the same shots. 95% of Korver's 3pt are assisted.Don't get me wrong Korver is good at what he does, but shot creation is a far harder and more important skill in the NBA.

I came across this post right after I read this fun article/exercise naming an all-star team solely out of first-timers. Here's the Korver section:

Most of the guys on this list have made a major leap in recent years, often by adding some new dimension to their games, and are awaiting the recognition that one day might come with it. Not so with Kyle Korver. He’s the same guy he’s always been, just a better version of it. Korver takes approximately one three-pointer for every six minutes he spends on the court, and, so far this year, has made 53.6 percent of them. As of this writing, his three-point percentage would be the league’s 14th-best field goal percentage and the 13 players he trails include Kevin Durant and 12 big men. That’s insane.

Korver is outstanding off the catch, outstanding in the face of tight close-outs, and just generally outstanding at shooting from distance. His current true shooting percentage of 73.9 percent wouldn’t just break Tyson Chandler’s single-season NBA record of 70.8 percent, it would obliterate it.

Korver’s also an underrated passer and defensive rebounder for a guy with his playing style. He’s a historically underrated offensive weapon, and he’s absolutely the second-best Eastern Conference wing to have never made an All-Star team.

As for making his teammates better (aside for the passing and rebounding), there is no way that guys shooting 40% from three would have the same impact on the defense as a guy shooting 53% from three. With Green or Morrow you have to put yourself in position to close out quickly. With Korver you actually have to try to deny him the ball.

I think maybe you see the catch and shoot numbers and think he's camped out in the corner spreading the floor? That's not what he does. They run all kinds of crazy stuff for him that opens up the floor for everyone. Zach Lowe did a good breakdown of what he does for the offense last summer, even before he took his game to another level. He also mentions there that 60% of his threes are moving shots, not catch and shoot, which is absurd and nothing like the spread-the-floor corner 3 specialists. In a similar vein, because it's apparently Kyle Korver week on the internet I also saw this nugget on Twitter this morning:

Kyle Korver's average touch time before shooting is 1.04 seconds... Quickest in the league with a minimum 250 shots.

So you've got the highest 3 Pt % in the league by a decent margin, and he's doing it on moving shots with quite possibly the quickest release in the league.

Nobody's trying to say he's better at basketball than Steph Curry. But you can't replace a guy that shoots 53% from three, while usually moving, with a lightning-fast release, with guys who usually have to square themselves before shooting 10-15% lower from threes (the difference between Korver and Morrow is bigger than the difference between Morrow and Josh Smith) and tell me the defense is just gonna shrug their shoulders as if nothing has changed.

Korver has been unreal this year and it's actual one reason I'm worried for the playoffs. If he has a long cold spell (for him) it would make the team not nearly as potent offensively. I think he can keep it up but he needs to be fresh in the playoffs and have his legs. I would like to see he and Horford rested a little more going forward. Now the nice thing is that Coach Bud doesn't play the starters a lot to begin with so that will help down the stretch and playoffs.

 

[AAABatteries]

Sure Korver has improved, but is it enough to ignore the previous 9 seasons of his career? I'd rather have Korver over Marrow, but this Hawks team is able to go because of Coach Bud, Horford, and Milsap. Teague is good, but the NBA pg depth is just ridiculous. Teague is replaceable. With that said Teague's shot creation is still more valuable to the team than Korver's "gravity".

I think Tobias has covered the Korver stuff so I won't comment more there - as for Teague, I think he's vastly underrated. Do I think he's a top-5 PG? Probably not but he's not that far off. He's ranked 4th in PER for PGs, ahead of Lillard, Lowry, Conley, Rose and Wall. He's been great and keeps getting better each season. I also think he's a great fit for this offense because he's not going to need to take a ton of shots like Curry, Westbrook and Paul who are all ahead of hime in PER. He can be the 4th or 5th scoring option every night and he's good with that. I can't wait to watch the 2 games when Curry and Teague match up - should be a lot of fun.

 

[Kev4029]

Sure Korver has improved, but is it enough to ignore the previous 9 seasons of his career? I'd rather have Korver over Marrow, but this Hawks team is able to go because of Coach Bud, Horford, and Milsap. Teague is good, but the NBA pg depth is just ridiculous. Teague is replaceable. With that said Teague's shot creation is still more valuable to the team than Korver's "gravity".

I think Tobias has covered the Korver stuff so I won't comment more there - as for Teague, I think he's vastly underrated. Do I think he's a top-5 PG? Probably not but he's not that far off. He's ranked 4th in PER for PGs, ahead of Lillard, Lowry, Conley, Rose and Wall. He's been great and keeps getting better each season. I also think he's a great fit for this offense because he's not going to need to take a ton of shots like Curry, Westbrook and Paul who are all ahead of hime in PER. He can be the 4th or 5th scoring option every night and he's good with that. I can't wait to watch the 2 games when Curry and Teague match up - should be a lot of fun.

Teague is underrated because he's been very mediocre his entire career until this year. There were serious discussions prior to last season about flipping him for Brandon Jennings. He's been fantastic this year but because of his huge jump in play between this year and the previous five years I think people are just waiting for him to come back to earth a bit.

As for him being the fourth or fifth scoring option, I don't think that's true. He averages a little over 20 shots per possession, pretty much right in line with Millsap and Horford and well ahead of Carroll and Korver. He's also closer to the shoot first PGs like Lillard, Curry or Irving than you think (Rose and Westbrook are on a whole other level).

 

[Poke_4_Life]

Thunder coming off 3 straight wins (vs GSW, @ Orl, @ Heat) play at the Wizards tonight.

Should be a good game.

Tonights game and then games @Atl and @Cle should show a lot about whether the Thunder are finally starting to play better or not.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Thunder coming off 3 straight wins (vs GSW, @ Orl, @ Heat) play at the Wizards tonight.

Should be a good game.

Tonights game and then games @Atl and @Cle should show a lot about whether the Thunder are finally starting to play better or not.

Great pair of national games on ESPN tonight. TNT can't be happy considering the matchups they've had to air recently.

 

[SWC]

so kendall marshal is out for the year for the bucks they are having a lot of injuries this year which sort of makes what they have done so far even more impressive in turns of a turnaround in my mind here is to jason kidd and i never thought i would say that i admit that i was wrong about him take that to the bank brohans

 

[Moe.]

Thunder coming off 3 straight wins (vs GSW, @ Orl, @ Heat) play at the Wizards tonight.

Should be a good game.

Tonights game and then games @Atl and @Cle should show a lot about whether the Thunder are finally starting to play better or not.

Do you get as pissed as I do watching them trot Roberson out there to start every game? It's starting to drive me crazy, like in my personal life.

 

[Corporation]

The Knicks record at points this season has been;

1-1

2-4

3-9

4-16

5-25

6-36

Next stop 7-49 then 8-64?

Math says yes, reality says probably not?

That's pretty cool

 

[AAABatteries]

As for him being the fourth or fifth scoring option, I don't think that's true. He averages a little over 20 shots per possession, pretty much right in line with Millsap and Horford and well ahead of Carroll and Korver. He's also closer to the shoot first PGs like Lillard, Curry or Irving than you think (Rose and Westbrook are on a whole other level).

The point was he seems to be ok with being the 4th or 5th option - I don't know what his shots per possession are compared with those guys but his FGA per 48 isn't that close. An ultimately my point was that (this year) I don't think Teague is replaceable (realistically) as No 16 was saying. I also think having Schroeder play so well has helped as he can be rested.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I'll agree Korver makes the team more efficient because of his shooting, but he doesn't make his teammates better. He's a function of the offense. You could fill Danny Green, Anthony Morrow, or any 3 point shooter and get the same effect of spreading the floor....they may not shoot as efficiently but they'll get the same shots. 95% of Korver's 3pt are assisted.Don't get me wrong Korver is good at what he does, but shot creation is a far harder and more important skill in the NBA.

I came across this post right after I read this fun article/exercise naming an all-star team solely out of first-timers. Here's the Korver section:

Most of the guys on this list have made a major leap in recent years, often by adding some new dimension to their games, and are awaiting the recognition that one day might come with it. Not so with Kyle Korver. He’s the same guy he’s always been, just a better version of it. Korver takes approximately one three-pointer for every six minutes he spends on the court, and, so far this year, has made 53.6 percent of them. As of this writing, his three-point percentage would be the league’s 14th-best field goal percentage and the 13 players he trails include Kevin Durant and 12 big men. That’s insane.

Korver is outstanding off the catch, outstanding in the face of tight close-outs, and just generally outstanding at shooting from distance. His current true shooting percentage of 73.9 percent wouldn’t just break Tyson Chandler’s single-season NBA record of 70.8 percent, it would obliterate it.

Korver’s also an underrated passer and defensive rebounder for a guy with his playing style. He’s a historically underrated offensive weapon, and he’s absolutely the second-best Eastern Conference wing to have never made an All-Star team.

As for making his teammates better (aside for the passing and rebounding), there is no way that guys shooting 40% from three would have the same impact on the defense as a guy shooting 53% from three. With Green or Morrow you have to put yourself in position to close out quickly. With Korver you actually have to try to deny him the ball.

I think maybe you see the catch and shoot numbers and think he's camped out in the corner spreading the floor? That's not what he does. They run all kinds of crazy stuff for him that opens up the floor for everyone. Zach Lowe did a good breakdown of what he does for the offense last summer, even before he took his game to another level. He also mentions there that 60% of his threes are moving shots, not catch and shoot, which is absurd and nothing like the spread-the-floor corner 3 specialists. In a similar vein, because it's apparently Kyle Korver week on the internet I also saw this nugget on Twitter this morning:

Kyle Korver's average touch time before shooting is 1.04 seconds... Quickest in the league with a minimum 250 shots.

So you've got the highest 3 Pt % in the league by a decent margin, and he's doing it on moving shots with quite possibly the quickest release in the league.

Nobody's trying to say he's better at basketball than Steph Curry. But you can't replace a guy that shoots 53% from three, while usually moving, with a lightning-fast release, with guys who usually have to square themselves before shooting 10-15% lower from threes (the difference between Korver and Morrow is bigger than the difference between Morrow and Josh Smith) and tell me the defense is just gonna shrug their shoulders as if nothing has changed.

I get all you're saying, Korver is good but again he's merely a function of the system he's in. He's like the perimeter version of Brandan Wright on the Mavs. Put them in the right offenses which accentuates their skills and they are uber productive (I wanted to use Chandler as a comparison, but Chandler's defense is his true value). If you want to look at the Mavs someone like Monta is a great comparison... they've had bankable NBA offensive skills their entire lives but they've excelled in the perfect ecosystems.

Kyle Korver's career 3 point % is 43%. He's always been a great 3 pointer shooter. No one can take that away from him. His first year in ATL without Coach Bud he still shot 45%. Great, but not too far from guys like Morrow or Danny Green, etc. With Coach Bud on board Korver shot 47% last year (his highest with >200 3PA, shot 59/110 in 09-10 with Jazz) and he's on fire this year.

Sure Korver has improved, but is it enough to ignore the previous 9 seasons of his career? I'd rather have Korver over Marrow, but this Hawks team is able to go because of Coach Bud, Horford, and Milsap. Teague is good, but the NBA pg depth is just ridiculous. Teague is replaceable. With that said Teague's shot creation is still more valuable to the team than Korver's "gravity".

Sorry, I missed this before.

I think the Zach Lowe profile/analysis is a pretty strong counterargument to the notion that Korver's output is a function of the system he's in, or at least that he's replaceable in any way. He makes a pretty good case that if anything it's the other way around, they create schemes that revolve around his unique skills, and that is "gravity" significantly helps the rest of the offense.

 

[No. 16]

I'll agree Korver makes the team more efficient because of his shooting, but he doesn't make his teammates better. He's a function of the offense. You could fill Danny Green, Anthony Morrow, or any 3 point shooter and get the same effect of spreading the floor....they may not shoot as efficiently but they'll get the same shots. 95% of Korver's 3pt are assisted.Don't get me wrong Korver is good at what he does, but shot creation is a far harder and more important skill in the NBA.

I came across this post right after I read this fun article/exercise naming an all-star team solely out of first-timers. Here's the Korver section:

Most of the guys on this list have made a major leap in recent years, often by adding some new dimension to their games, and are awaiting the recognition that one day might come with it. Not so with Kyle Korver. He’s the same guy he’s always been, just a better version of it. Korver takes approximately one three-pointer for every six minutes he spends on the court, and, so far this year, has made 53.6 percent of them. As of this writing, his three-point percentage would be the league’s 14th-best field goal percentage and the 13 players he trails include Kevin Durant and 12 big men. That’s insane.

Korver is outstanding off the catch, outstanding in the face of tight close-outs, and just generally outstanding at shooting from distance. His current true shooting percentage of 73.9 percent wouldn’t just break Tyson Chandler’s single-season NBA record of 70.8 percent, it would obliterate it.

Korver’s also an underrated passer and defensive rebounder for a guy with his playing style. He’s a historically underrated offensive weapon, and he’s absolutely the second-best Eastern Conference wing to have never made an All-Star team.

As for making his teammates better (aside for the passing and rebounding), there is no way that guys shooting 40% from three would have the same impact on the defense as a guy shooting 53% from three. With Green or Morrow you have to put yourself in position to close out quickly. With Korver you actually have to try to deny him the ball.

I think maybe you see the catch and shoot numbers and think he's camped out in the corner spreading the floor? That's not what he does. They run all kinds of crazy stuff for him that opens up the floor for everyone. Zach Lowe did a good breakdown of what he does for the offense last summer, even before he took his game to another level. He also mentions there that 60% of his threes are moving shots, not catch and shoot, which is absurd and nothing like the spread-the-floor corner 3 specialists. In a similar vein, because it's apparently Kyle Korver week on the internet I also saw this nugget on Twitter this morning:

Kyle Korver's average touch time before shooting is 1.04 seconds... Quickest in the league with a minimum 250 shots.

So you've got the highest 3 Pt % in the league by a decent margin, and he's doing it on moving shots with quite possibly the quickest release in the league.

Nobody's trying to say he's better at basketball than Steph Curry. But you can't replace a guy that shoots 53% from three, while usually moving, with a lightning-fast release, with guys who usually have to square themselves before shooting 10-15% lower from threes (the difference between Korver and Morrow is bigger than the difference between Morrow and Josh Smith) and tell me the defense is just gonna shrug their shoulders as if nothing has changed.

I get all you're saying, Korver is good but again he's merely a function of the system he's in. He's like the perimeter version of Brandan Wright on the Mavs. Put them in the right offenses which accentuates their skills and they are uber productive (I wanted to use Chandler as a comparison, but Chandler's defense is his true value). If you want to look at the Mavs someone like Monta is a great comparison... they've had bankable NBA offensive skills their entire lives but they've excelled in the perfect ecosystems.

Kyle Korver's career 3 point % is 43%. He's always been a great 3 pointer shooter. No one can take that away from him. His first year in ATL without Coach Bud he still shot 45%. Great, but not too far from guys like Morrow or Danny Green, etc. With Coach Bud on board Korver shot 47% last year (his highest with >200 3PA, shot 59/110 in 09-10 with Jazz) and he's on fire this year.

Sure Korver has improved, but is it enough to ignore the previous 9 seasons of his career? I'd rather have Korver over Marrow, but this Hawks team is able to go because of Coach Bud, Horford, and Milsap. Teague is good, but the NBA pg depth is just ridiculous. Teague is replaceable. With that said Teague's shot creation is still more valuable to the team than Korver's "gravity".

Sorry, I missed this before.

I think the Zach Lowe profile/analysis is a pretty strong counterargument to the notion that Korver's output is a function of the system he's in, or at least that he's replaceable in any way. He makes a pretty good case that if anything it's the other way around, they create schemes that revolve around his unique skills, and that is "gravity" significantly helps the rest of the offense.

Guess. It's a chicken or egg thing. Just curious where do you rank Korver in value to the rest of the Hawks? That's all I'm really debating because you won't hear me say Korver isn't any good. To me he's clearly behind Horford and Milsap. I would say Teague is more important, but if you prefer Korver I can see that.

 

[No. 16]

As for him being the fourth or fifth scoring option, I don't think that's true. He averages a little over 20 shots per possession, pretty much right in line with Millsap and Horford and well ahead of Carroll and Korver. He's also closer to the shoot first PGs like Lillard, Curry or Irving than you think (Rose and Westbrook are on a whole other level).

The point was he seems to be ok with being the 4th or 5th option - I don't know what his shots per possession are compared with those guys but his FGA per 48 isn't that close. An ultimately my point was that (this year) I don't think Teague is replaceable (realistically) as No 16 was saying. I also think having Schroeder play so well has helped as he can be rested.

What I meant be replaceable is that Teague is an above average at best starter. I don't think he becomes anything special. Which is not a knock because there's soooo many good PGs in the league.

My Top 8 PG

--------------------

1. Curry

2. Westbrook

3. CP3

4. Dame

5. Wall

6. Lowry

7. Conley

8. Parker

I think these 8 guys are head and shoulders above everyone else at the 1 spot. The rest (Rose, Kyrie, Holiday, etc) are all part of the middle tier from average to above average.

 

[Instinctive]

As for him being the fourth or fifth scoring option, I don't think that's true. He averages a little over 20 shots per possession, pretty much right in line with Millsap and Horford and well ahead of Carroll and Korver. He's also closer to the shoot first PGs like Lillard, Curry or Irving than you think (Rose and Westbrook are on a whole other level).

The point was he seems to be ok with being the 4th or 5th option - I don't know what his shots per possession are compared with those guys but his FGA per 48 isn't that close. An ultimately my point was that (this year) I don't think Teague is replaceable (realistically) as No 16 was saying. I also think having Schroeder play so well has helped as he can be rested.

What I meant be replaceable is that Teague is an above average at best starter. I don't think he becomes anything special. Which is not a knock because there's soooo many good PGs in the league.

My Top 8 PG

--------------------

1. Curry

2. Westbrook

3. CP3

4. Dame

5. Wall

6. Lowry

7. Conley

8. Parker

I think these 8 guys are head and shoulders above everyone else at the 1 spot. The rest (Rose, Kyrie, Holiday, etc) are all part of the middle tier from average to above average.

Uhhh....Rondo...

 

[AAABatteries]

As for him being the fourth or fifth scoring option, I don't think that's true. He averages a little over 20 shots per possession, pretty much right in line with Millsap and Horford and well ahead of Carroll and Korver. He's also closer to the shoot first PGs like Lillard, Curry or Irving than you think (Rose and Westbrook are on a whole other level).

The point was he seems to be ok with being the 4th or 5th option - I don't know what his shots per possession are compared with those guys but his FGA per 48 isn't that close. An ultimately my point was that (this year) I don't think Teague is replaceable (realistically) as No 16 was saying. I also think having Schroeder play so well has helped as he can be rested.

What I meant be replaceable is that Teague is an above average at best starter. I don't think he becomes anything special. Which is not a knock because there's soooo many good PGs in the league.

My Top 8 PG

--------------------

1. Curry

2. Westbrook

3. CP3

4. Dame

5. Wall

6. Lowry

7. Conley

8. Parker

I think these 8 guys are head and shoulders above everyone else at the 1 spot. The rest (Rose, Kyrie, Holiday, etc) are all part of the middle tier from average to above average.

That makes more sense because in nobody's world are any if those guys available to replace Teague, that's what made no sense. I will say, like Kev did, that Teague has made great strides this year and he's held his own against pretty much everyone he's played this year. He hasn't played Curry and Westbrook yet this year.

 

[Moe.]

Thunder continue to get more respect from Vegas than I would expect. Favored by a point at the Wizards tonight. Surprising, to me at least.

 

[Kev4029]

As for him being the fourth or fifth scoring option, I don't think that's true. He averages a little over 20 shots per possession, pretty much right in line with Millsap and Horford and well ahead of Carroll and Korver. He's also closer to the shoot first PGs like Lillard, Curry or Irving than you think (Rose and Westbrook are on a whole other level).

The point was he seems to be ok with being the 4th or 5th option - I don't know what his shots per possession are compared with those guys but his FGA per 48 isn't that close. An ultimately my point was that (this year) I don't think Teague is replaceable (realistically) as No 16 was saying. I also think having Schroeder play so well has helped as he can be rested.

What I meant be replaceable is that Teague is an above average at best starter. I don't think he becomes anything special. Which is not a knock because there's soooo many good PGs in the league.

My Top 8 PG

--------------------

1. Curry

2. Westbrook

3. CP3

4. Dame

5. Wall

6. Lowry

7. Conley

8. Parker

I think these 8 guys are head and shoulders above everyone else at the 1 spot. The rest (Rose, Kyrie, Holiday, etc) are all part of the middle tier from average to above average.

Parker is living off of reputation, and so is Rose if you think he is anywhere near that next tier.

 

[Kev4029]

As for him being the fourth or fifth scoring option, I don't think that's true. He averages a little over 20 shots per possession, pretty much right in line with Millsap and Horford and well ahead of Carroll and Korver. He's also closer to the shoot first PGs like Lillard, Curry or Irving than you think (Rose and Westbrook are on a whole other level).

The point was he seems to be ok with being the 4th or 5th option - I don't know what his shots per possession are compared with those guys but his FGA per 48 isn't that close. An ultimately my point was that (this year) I don't think Teague is replaceable (realistically) as No 16 was saying. I also think having Schroeder play so well has helped as he can be rested.

What I meant be replaceable is that Teague is an above average at best starter. I don't think he becomes anything special. Which is not a knock because there's soooo many good PGs in the league.

My Top 8 PG

--------------------

1. Curry

2. Westbrook

3. CP3

4. Dame

5. Wall

6. Lowry

7. Conley

8. Parker

I think these 8 guys are head and shoulders above everyone else at the 1 spot. The rest (Rose, Kyrie, Holiday, etc) are all part of the middle tier from average to above average.

Uhhh....Rondo...

Really? I'm not sure he is in the top 30 pgs, certainly nowhere near top 8. He's shooting 30% from the FT line.

 

[Juxtatarot]

So for the Rookie-Sophomore game during All Star weekend, it's going to be U.S. vs. International players. Gotta think the International guys have the advantage.

 

[Ilov80s]

Jennings with 24 and 21 right now. First time since Nash in 09 to post 20/20. Pretty nuts the way he is playing right now. When do you guys start consider reconsidering opinions onJennings? Where does he fit with the top PGs?

 

[bigmarc27]

As for him being the fourth or fifth scoring option, I don't think that's true. He averages a little over 20 shots per possession, pretty much right in line with Millsap and Horford and well ahead of Carroll and Korver. He's also closer to the shoot first PGs like Lillard, Curry or Irving than you think (Rose and Westbrook are on a whole other level).

The point was he seems to be ok with being the 4th or 5th option - I don't know what his shots per possession are compared with those guys but his FGA per 48 isn't that close. An ultimately my point was that (this year) I don't think Teague is replaceable (realistically) as No 16 was saying. I also think having Schroeder play so well has helped as he can be rested.

What I meant be replaceable is that Teague is an above average at best starter. I don't think he becomes anything special. Which is not a knock because there's soooo many good PGs in the league.

My Top 8 PG

--------------------

1. Curry

2. Westbrook

3. CP3

4. Dame

5. Wall

6. Lowry

7. Conley

8. Parker

I think these 8 guys are head and shoulders above everyone else at the 1 spot. The rest (Rose, Kyrie, Holiday, etc) are all part of the middle tier from average to above average.

Uhhh....Rondo...

Really? I'm not sure he is in the top 30 pgs, certainly nowhere near top 8. He's shooting 30% from the FT line.

How far off is Teague?

 

[Abraham]

Have tickets on a 200 section for lakers / wizards but I'm taking a client. I have meetings in Orange county Monday but would be excited to meetup with any of you (raiders, SoCal bronco) for the clippers game Monday b

 

[Abraham]

It's crazy that a 26 year old former league mvp isn't in the top 20% of his position.

 

[Moe.]

Wow, the thunder just ran an actual play with guys moving around and everything.

 

[Kev4029]

It's crazy that a 26 year old former league mvp isn't in the top 20% of his position.

There are at least 20 point guards who I would rather have starting for my team this year over Rose. There are probably 40 that I'd rather have over Rondo.

 

[Moe.]

Some pretty interesting refereeing going on in DC tonight

 

[AAABatteries]

Great call by the refs on Adams

 

[AAABatteries]

Some pretty interesting refereeing going on in DC tonight

It's not often that a guy is taken to the floor by two other players and gets a foul called on them.

 

[Moe.]

Nene fouls with his off-hand like 75% of the time he shoots

 

[No. 16]

It's crazy that a 26 year old former league mvp isn't in the top 20% of his position.

There are at least 20 point guards who I would rather have starting for my team this year over Rose. There are probably 40 that I'd rather have over Rondo.

I'd rather have Rondo over Rose.

 

[Moe.]

No Trevor Booker bull#### here plz

 

[msudaisy26]

Jennings with 24 and 21 right now. First time since Nash in 09 to post 20/20. Pretty nuts the way he is playing right now. When do you guys start consider reconsidering opinions onJennings? Where does he fit with the top PGs?

When he does it for a full season. Right now I would still put him in tier 3 at best.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Jennings with 24 and 21 right now. First time since Nash in 09 to post 20/20. Pretty nuts the way he is playing right now. When do you guys start consider reconsidering opinions onJennings? Where does he fit with the top PGs?

I'm sure all the folks that bought into Linsanity have changed their opinions on Jennings.

He is a bottom tier starter. 20+ range. And once you're into that range, you're better off with a guy that doesn't come with chucker issues but is a little less talented.

 

[No. 16]

Dwight Howard is a front running baby. Love watching Bogut make this fake tough guy look like a #####.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Hate the Rockets. Take your beating like gentlemen.