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NCAA HOOPS THREAD! -- K petitions to get Maui Jim Maui Invitational moved to Transylvania (5 Viewers)

Who is worse?

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mr. furley said:
most rookies aren't ready. in any sport. or any job. it takes time to acclimate. not just physically or emotionally but mentally. the game is faster. it's more complex. it's new information at a minimum.

any new job has a learning curve. people don't just jump in and take over a company. you learn the ropes as you go and build from there.
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Sure - but the player who has adopted to the college level will have an easier time adjusting to the Pro level.

If the NBA wanted 18-yos, they would take them.  The NBA is trying to protect its teams from themselves.  The more information they have on players, the better the judgment they can have towards hiring the player.  I think if it was up to the NBA, they would set a 21-yo minimum age - to ensure that most players in the league are physically, emotionally, and mentally ready for the challenge - thereby giving the best product.  That also give NBA teams a much bigger window into evaluating those players - also helping to improve the product on the court.

Again, the NBA benefits greatly from the marketing of college players before the Draft - that marketing costs the NBA nothing - but delivers household "stars" to the NBA every season.  The longer the kids stay in college, the bigger the name - the better for the NBA in terms of marketing its product.

 
Sinn Fein said:
He averaged under 19 minutes a game through the end of January - first 41 games.  777 minutes in his first 41 games. 

It was done by design.  He would start, and play, the 2nd period, and then they would go from there, based on how he was doing, and game situation.  I remember thinking at the time it was the best situation for him to get introduced to the NBA - he was not expected to carry the team, and was allowed to ease into life as an NBA player.
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It's totally OK to admit you were wrong when you said it was what they did with Garnett all season.  It's really not that big of a deal.  

The front office wanted Garnett to play more from the beginning.  They fired the coach 20 games in for many reasons, one of which was not playing Garnett enough.  The new coach spent his first month showcasing players the front office wanted to trade away, then moved Garnett into the starting lineup after they figured out the trade market was for the veterans on the roster.  By the All-Star Game KG was playing 40 minutes unless he got into foul trouble.    

But this isn't what this thread is supposed to be about.  Back to the topic at hand...

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Sounds like you want the NCAA to be the D-league.  I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing with you but I'm not sure the thing that makes college sports great (hard to describe passion/pageantry) is going to exist with 40 something year old washed up NBA players going back to college to play.  But it's also not realistic because Adidas isn't dropping big money on Iverson to go play for Georgetown because he's not going to sell them shoes at this point.
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It only works if big money gets taken out of the sport. Which I realize takes us back to our original dilemma. Washed up 40 year old NBA guys also wouldnt be on many teams. Coaches wouldnt want them, they would probably be hurt too often, and that baggage would not be offset my some huge amount of talent, because if it was, they wouldnt be washed up.  

 
Sinn Fein said:
Sure - but the player who has adopted to the college level will have an easier time adjusting to the Pro level.
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jesus, i went to college for a couple spins and was not remotely prepared at all for the real world

41 now and still a bit unsure about the whole thing

If the NBA wanted 18-yos, they would take them.  The NBA is trying to protect its teams from themselves. 
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let's not kid ourselves, this isn't about protecting the kids or the product on the court.. it's about the players union. start letting in lower paid 18/19 year olds to take the roster spots of middling, mid-career players making millions and you're hurting paychecks. 

it's a weird spot. of course guys want to be allowed in at 18/19 buuuuuuuuuuuuuut, maybe 29 year old 10th man making 2.3 mil a year doesn't want a kid coming in to take his spot at 1/4 the cost.

 
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mr. furley said:
jesus, i went to college for a couple spins and was not remotely prepared at all for the real world

41 now and still a bit unsure about the whole thing

let's not kid ourselves, this isn't about protecting the kids or the product on the court.. it's about the players union. start letting in lower paid 18/19 year olds to take the roster spots of middling, mid-career players making millions and you're hurting paychecks. 

it's a weird spot. of course guys want to be allowed in at 18/19 buuuuuuuuuuuuuut, maybe 29 year old 10th man making 2.3 mil a year doesn't want a kid coming in to take his spot at 1/4 the cost.
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So i assume it was the union that put the rookie salary cap in place too?

 
mr. furley said:
jesus, i went to college for a couple spins and was not remotely prepared at all for the real world

41 now and still a bit unsure about the whole thing

let's not kid ourselves, this isn't about protecting the kids or the product on the court.. it's about the players union. start letting in lower paid 18/19 year olds to take the roster spots of middling, mid-career players making millions and you're hurting paychecks. 

it's a weird spot. of course guys want to be allowed in at 18/19 buuuuuuuuuuuuuut, maybe 29 year old 10th man making 2.3 mil a year doesn't want a kid coming in to take his spot at 1/4 the cost.
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Don't forget the owners don't want extra years that they can demand that supermax contract.

 
If the NCAA allowed payments to collegiate players, the NBA could reduced the minimum draft age by a year and permit drafting of players out of high school.  Somebody (the league, NCAA, shoe companies, boosters) could pay the drafted players a fixed-rate salary while they played college ball.  NBA rookie contracts are currently two years with a third-year option.  Draft rights would have to be extended if the player chose to play in college.

The players would get paid, the NBA would get better developed players, the NCAA would reduce the possibility for under-the-table payments and fan would get the added benefit of watching prospects from their NBA develop in college. 

I'm not going to spend more time thinking through the details because it'll never happen.

 
parasaurolophus said:
Yep. 3 years left. No different than current rules for students transferring, etc. 
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I don't understand where you're going with this. Division 1 athletes have five years from the date of their first competition, unless they get some kind of hardship waiver from the NCAA. You can start at 30 and play five years, but you can't start at 18 and play until 30 (Perry Ellis and Robbie Hummel notwithstanding).

I like what @Ramblin Wreck mentioned above. MLB and NHL allow you to get drafted out of high school, you can go pro, or go to college, and no eligibility is lost. The only difference is that NHL teams retain a drafted player's rights for all four years and baseball players go back into the pool if they don't sign and then can't get drafted for another three years.

One of the big issues seems to be, why are the rules set up so that football and basketball players have to declare for their drafts, and then if drafted, they forfeit all remaining eligibility? And unlike NHL or MLB, they are not allowed to be drafted out of high school? Does it really boil down to minor leagues vs. NCAA as the development model?

 
pantherclub said:
I get that but I dont see how thats any cleaner then whats happening now.  Assuming the NCAA is still going to try and lean on the "amateur athlete" angle after all this is said and done.
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It's also cleaner in the same way that legalized drugs are cleaner, and legalized prostitutes are cleaner.  The payments can be above-board and regulated.  The kids can get offers from the universities themselves, or reputable businesses, or reputable people, instead of dealing with envelopes of cash from predatory lying scumbags, or dealing with game-fixing pressure from organized crime.

Granted, some of the scumbags will still be there, but getting payments out in the open helps

 
Wetzel also on board with the idea of letting players earn what they can.

I have to say, I'm softening my stance on this. As a fan/alum of a mid-major school and struggling G5 football program, it's frustrating to continue to watch the rich get richer. 

But this part resonated with me ...

Will some schools have an advantage in recruiting because they’ll have favorable companies or boosters willing to pay kids? It’s already happening. 
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Prohibition doesn't seem to be working. It sucks for those schools who are "doing it the right way." But I'm not sure I see any reasonable alternative ... aside from ending the charade of demanding these kids need to spend X number of years in college in the first place.

 
mr. furley said:
jesus, i went to college for a couple spins and was not remotely prepared at all for the real world

41 now and still a bit unsure about the whole thing
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When McHale was first asked about high schoolers going straight to the pros, he said the two biggest things he learned during college that helped him in his pro career were "how to separate laundry between lights and darks" and "how to spot a good bar from the street".  Everything else he needed he could have picked up faster by turning pro before finishing college.  

There are a few cases were a couple years of college can help in the transition, but NBA teams have learned so much over the last 20 years about how to integrate rookies as their ages dropped from 22-24 to 18-20, they're at least as equipped as most big-time college programs are a top draft prospect, and in some cases the NBA would be better as their goals are more closely aligned with the player's than a college program often is.

Get the money out in the open.  Pay the players.  Let them get more access to ethical money managers.  

 
Well I hope I get to wear my UofL gear for basketball season.     I still don't think that UofL will get the death penalty, but with people jumping ship, and who is going to be coach, sanctions...UofL may want to scrap the season. 

 
Dickie Dunn said:
Interesting read from Gregg Doyel
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So, the shoe companies are willing to throw millions at kids to go to schools that they sponsor. And they're willing to to give the schools millions for that sponsorship. It could all be open and above board just like any other commercial enterprise. There may be unpredictable downsides but it doesn't look like schools are gonna go broke if their basketball players make six figures (I saw one estimate a couple of years ago that Louisville b-ball stars had an open market value of somewhere around $800k). Texas A&M would have paid J.F. Football millions and still been way ahead of the game.

 
SHIZNITTTT said:
Well I hope I get to wear my UofL gear for basketball season.     I still don't think that UofL will get the death penalty, but with people jumping ship, and who is going to be coach, sanctions...UofL may want to scrap the season. 
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If this coupled with the past transgressions dont warrant the death penalty then what does?

 
SHIZNITTTT said:
Well I hope I get to wear my UofL gear for basketball season.     I still don't think that UofL will get the death penalty, but with people jumping ship, and who is going to be coach, sanctions...UofL may want to scrap the season. 
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I think it's too late to do anything this season.  When USF self-imposed the death penalty and dropped the men's hoops program from 1982-85, they made the decision in July, not the en of September.  Even then it was a scramble for the university and the players.  It looks like the players were able to transfer without having to sit out a year and the university honored the scholarships of the students.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
I'm in the camp that there should be no cap to the years of eligibility.  If a student-athlete wants to try playing intercollegiate sports while pursuing a Master's or PhD, let them do it.  I think it would be pretty fun to see if a player could hang on the roster that long.  Let every program experience what KU did with Perry Ellis playing forward for the Jayhawks for 17 years.   
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This reminded me of something I wanted to ask you.  A bit off topic, but want to do it while I remembered it.  Other thread-goers, please excuse my divergence.

Came across a couple KU fans that were completely butthurt about the Perry Ellis joke and openly and loudly questioned why I didn't think the same thing about Frank Mason last year.  It was pretty bizarre.  This a thing among many KU fans or were these guys just oddballs without senses of humor?

 
rodg12 said:
This reminded me of something I wanted to ask you.  A bit off topic, but want to do it while I remembered it.  Other thread-goers, please excuse my divergence.

Came across a couple KU fans that were completely butthurt about the Perry Ellis joke and openly and loudly questioned why I didn't think the same thing about Frank Mason last year.  It was pretty bizarre.  This a thing among many KU fans or were these guys just oddballs without senses of humor?
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Oddballs.

Ellis is from Wichita, and was the Kansas HS POY 3 or 4 times. So we’d heard a lot about him since he was in 9th grade.  Combine that with his receding hairline, his style of play (solid footwork and fundamentals, not a great leaper) and demeanor (soft-spoken guy who would rather be at a table for five than a house party of 500), and he kinda seemed like an old man who had played there forever.  And to his credit, Ellis had a great sense of humor about it all: at his Senior Day speech, he spoke about how special it was to play with great teammates like Danny Manning and Wilt Chamberlain.

The part that made Mason seem like he had been around a long time was realizing he was the same recruiting class as Wiggins and Embiid, but since Mason is this fiery little guy who plays with his heart on his sleeve, he always seemed like his actual age.  

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
Oddballs.

Ellis is from Wichita, and was the Kansas HS POY 3 or 4 times. So we’d heard a lot about him since he was in 9th grade.  Combine that with his receding hairline, his style of play (solid footwork and fundamentals, not a great leaper) and demeanor (soft-spoken guy who would rather be at a table for five than a house party of 500), and he kinda seemed like an old man who had played there forever.  And to his credit, Ellis had a great sense of humor about it all: at his Senior Day speech, he spoke about how special it was to play with great teammates like Danny Manning and Wilt Chamberlain.

The part that made Mason seem like he had been around a long time was realizing he was the same recruiting class as Wiggins and Embiid, but since Mason is this fiery little guy who plays with his heart on his sleeve, he always seemed like his actual age.  
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That's what I figured.  Thanks for the reply.  I remember reading about Ellis' speech where he cracked the jokes about Manning and Chamberlain.  That was classic.

Now back to awaiting that sleazeball Pitino's perp-walk.  :popcorn:  

 
Licensed apparel revenue is peanuts compared to footwear. So when you sign a school to wear your flashy jersey and coaches polo, it's about getting them in your shoes. And in college players have to wear the onfield brand, where in the pros footwear is separated from the onfield and players have freedom to do what they want...so the college deals you see reported seem really high. But there is no doubt people in Carolina buy Nike, and UA is now seeing a sales boost in the midwest spurred by ND (and in Tim's closet by UCLA).

Watch Nike and Adidas (Kris Bryant) now going after big MLB player deals...even though no one wears baseball cleats...while UA has a massive MLB onfield deal coming in '19.

NBA will be the real war, where a signing like Curry can make or break a multi-billion $ business. So I assume a big part of this is building a relationship early with young studs.

 
Eephus said:
I think it's too late to do anything this season.  When USF self-imposed the death penalty and dropped the men's hoops program from 1982-85, they made the decision in July, not the en of September.  Even then it was a scramble for the university and the players.  It looks like the players were able to transfer without having to sit out a year and the university honored the scholarships of the students.
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Yeah if CBB season started in January there might be a chance to scramble it out, but some schools are already several weeks into the semester with practice about to start.  

When SMU got the football death penalty, every player was given a full release, so they were allowed to transfer without sitting out a year.  Anyone who wanted to stay at SMU got to keep their scholarship, but since the program was going dark for two seasons, most of the roster transferred out.  And since SMU made the decision in February, it set off a mini-recruiting season at SMU where most of D-I stopped by to see who was available.    

 
mr. furley said:
jesus, i went to college for a couple spins and was not remotely prepared at all for the real world

41 now and still a bit unsure about the whole thing

let's not kid ourselves, this isn't about protecting the kids or the product on the court.. it's about the players union. start letting in lower paid 18/19 year olds to take the roster spots of middling, mid-career players making millions and you're hurting paychecks. 

it's a weird spot. of course guys want to be allowed in at 18/19 buuuuuuuuuuuuuut, maybe 29 year old 10th man making 2.3 mil a year doesn't want a kid coming in to take his spot at 1/4 the cost.
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But those 29-year-old-journeymen are ok with 22-year-old ( more seasoned) rookies taking their job at 1/4 of the cost.

 
Dickie Dunn said:
I don't understand where you're going with this. Division 1 athletes have five years from the date of their first competition, unless they get some kind of hardship waiver from the NCAA. You can start at 30 and play five years, but you can't start at 18 and play until 30 (Perry Ellis and Robbie Hummel notwithstanding).

 @Ramblin Wreck
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Unless something has changed from when I played, your D-I clock starts when you take classes full time.  D-II starts with competition.  Kids can grey shirt and delay the start of said clock but it's more prevalent in football.

 
Yesterday Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin came out in favor of paying college athletes, which might make him the nation's highest ranking elected official to do so. Lol GO CATS!

 
2018 # 1 overall recruit RJ Barrett announcing his decision today at 6:00 p.m. est.  Choosing between Duke, Kentucky,  and Oregon.  Sounds like it will be Duke but Canadian insiders have recently predicted Oregon.

 
KU had their last tuneup before their Champions Classic game against UK on Tuesday.

Devonte’ Graham will be the team leader.  I expect him to be the Jayhawks’ leader in scoring, assists, and steals.  And with no bigs expected to play 30 MPG, might lead in turnovers as well. 

TV narrative last night was how few scholarship players KU has, but they have four scholarships tied up in transfers who are practicing with the team, and and open spot for an IMG Academy player who is trying to graduate in December and join the team when conference play starts.

Self is sticking with the four-out offense he installed last year after decades of high-low flex stuff.  Lagerald Vick is backfilling Graham’s old spot, excellent shooter and improving defender but weak handles.  Svi Mykhailiuk is back as the rare 20-year-old senior, great shooter/passer/dribbler for his size (excellent transition passer).  Also back is Udoka Azubuike at center, who missed conference play and the postseason last season with a broken wrist.

KU rotate six through the four-out: Graham, Vick, Svi, freshman Marcus Garrett (smooth but not the athlete Josh Jackson was), Malik Newman (Mississippi State transfer who IMO will be starting ahead of Vick at some point), with Sam Cunliffe (Arizona State midseason transfer) becoming the sixth come January.  

The bigs will be Azubuike, sophomore Mitch Lightfoot (sawft inside but added three-point range to his jumper over the summer), and freshman Billy Preston (most talented of the three but missed curfew Thursday night and class Friday mourning, so was benched last night).  There are rumors about 2018 commit Silvio De Souza trying to graduate in December and join the team in January, but I’ll believe it when I see it.

Right now they are 1.5 players short of keeping the conference title streak going, but if Preston gets his head on straight and one of the Vick/Garrett/Newman trio breaks out, they won’t lose any home games.  

4 ranking seems lofty now, but I’d be surprised if they are lower than a 3-seed come March.  I’ll guess they end up a 2-seed.

 
I don't have the breakdown on the team I root for that Bruce does for his, but I think Maryland's going to be sneaky-good this season and has a real chance to finish second or third B1G and like a 4/5/6 seed.

They are going to be led by a trio of Sophomores - Huerter, Jackson, and Cowan. They have returning, skilled-but-often-hurt big Euros Cekovsky and Bender. Former highly-regarded and snakebitten upperclassmen Nickens & Wiley. A  F wing guy out of Baltimore named Darryl Morsell who's supposed to be really good.

And - the prize - 6'10" jumping jack Bruno Fernando, who has College Park in a perpetual orgasm and who I am really excited to see. He's drawing comparisons to Chris Wilcox.

You remember Wilcox, don't you Bruce? I'm sure Drew Gooden does.  :D

 
My favorite comment about that game from a KU super fan, “We were doing great until that timeout when Juan Dixon ran out to a phone booth and put his Superman suit on.”

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
My favorite comment about that game from a KU super fan, “We were doing great until that timeout when Juan Dixon ran out to a phone booth and put his Superman suit on.”
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He had worn it all season. That dude had bowling balls for gonads.

As for Wilcox/Gooden, it just seemed like Wilcox intimidated Gooden early and took him out of the game. Of course, Wilcox had been two months gone from campus and was as much a student as I was at that point.

 
I went to the Rhode Island Rams opener last night, pretty easy win for them that was expected. They should be one of the top 3 teams in the A-10 this season and hopefully they make the tourney for the second straight year. I've got season tickets for this season so hoping that is the case. Almost 7K fans there last night which is great to see as they have been playing in front of sparse crowds the last few years. Making the tourney last year and winning a game has done wonders for their popularity.

 
Fun moment from last night... KU got up by 30 in the first half, and Self sent in Clay Young, a 6’5” walk-on, to play Center.  The crowd at the Phog always yells for walk-ons to shoot and score when they check in.  Crowd booed a little when Young turned down a drop-step layup to kick it out to Svi for a corner three.  Then a couple possessions later, the Tennessee State center forearmed Young in frustration and Young flopped to the ground, drawing a flagrant-1.  So Young had the entire arena on the edge of their seats as he shot free throws in a 30-point game.

He missed the first, hit the second.  Crowd went crazy when he sank the back end.

 
Last minute notice but I'm going to be in Tucson with nothing to do tomorrow afternoon, considering buying a solo ticket to the Arizona/UMBC game.  I know zero about Tucson, the campus, etc.  Hoping to grab an Uber from my hotel to the arena, assuming that's fairly easy to do?  Anything I need to know?  Places to exploit/avoid?  Get there early to take a walk around campus - yes/no?  Appreciate any advice.  Thanks.

 
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Snickers said:
I went to the Rhode Island Rams opener last night, pretty easy win for them that was expected. They should be one of the top 3 teams in the A-10 this season and hopefully they make the tourney for the second straight year. I've got season tickets for this season so hoping that is the case. Almost 7K fans there last night which is great to see as they have been playing in front of sparse crowds the last few years. Making the tourney last year and winning a game has done wonders for their popularity.
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I was trying to remember the year Silk Owens and Tom Garrick knocked Mizzou out in the first round.  It was 1988.  Would’ve guess farther back.

Totally forgot Rhode Island also beat Syracuse that weekend, and gave Duke a really good game at regionals.

 
Steve Tasker said:
Last minute notice but I'm going to be in Tucson with nothing to do tomorrow afternoon, considering buying a solo ticket to the Arizona/UMBC game.  I know zero about Tucson, the campus, etc.  Hoping to grab an Uber from my hotel to the arena, assuming that's fairly easy to do?  Anything I need to know?  Places to exploit/avoid?  Get there early to take a walk around campus - yes/no?  Appreciate any advice.  Thanks.
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I went to this by myself.....pretty good time all things considered.  Pretty large crowd even though there were some empty seats scattered around.  UMBC hung around and even cut it to 3 in the early second half.  At one point the Arizona fan next to me buried his head in his hands and said "who are these guys?"

That said, Arizona looked pretty great.  Ayton looks like a superstar though he didn't totally dominate the game like it looked he was going to.  First few minutes he was on fire but he quieted down the stretch.  Trier was on his game and Arizona shot like 60% from the field.  UMBC had one guy who carried the load and had like 21 in the first half but cooled off in the second and Arizona pulled away.  Neat stuff.

 
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