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NFL.COM Reporting Jets Illegality (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter SeniorVBDStudent
- Start date
Guys,
This a real story and worth discussing. But please keep the tool factor down and especially the Jets vs Pats stuff.
TIA.
J
This a real story and worth discussing. But please keep the tool factor down and especially the Jets vs Pats stuff.
TIA.
J
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
In the long run, I believe it will be Mangini who has the most to lose....When he gets fired by the J-E-T-S...what coach is going to want him on his staff?..or..what GM will hire the recently fired Mangini knowing he is not respected by other coaching staffs in the leagueI would bet my house that if Mangina could turn back the clock he would have kept his mouth shut. There is no doubt in my mind that he never thought this would turn into the spectacle that it has become.
This is not even remotely similar to Belichick's cheating and Billick would have complained about this whether or not the Pats scandal ever occurred. As for Mangini, it would make no sense for a coach to let another team explicitly break the rules in order to gain an unfair advantage over his team. If acting in the best interest of his team is being a "rat", then, yes, Mangini is a "rat".
BroadwayG
Footballguy
Not going to argue that, but now everyone else needs to completely reevaluate their spy-game. None of the teams are going to be happy with that, and the finger points solely at Mangini for being responsible for it.
You are making way too many assumptions. Who says he is going to get fired by the Jets? And you have no idea whether or not he is respected by other coaches. If you were coaching a team that was playing a close rival, and somehow found out that the other team was explicitly breaking the rules to gain an unfair advantage, you are telling me you would do nothing??? And how much respect would your players have for you after you decided it was ok for them to be taken advantage of?
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greenline
Footballguy
I don't think it equates at all but I do find it all amusing. I'm not sure if I qualify as a TOOL (great band, btw) but I do enjoy watching how easily people get needled.
Belichick didn't even cheat. It was a simple videotaping procedure and a mis-interpretation of a rule.
The Jets cheated though. That is clear. they did it repeatedly too as stated by the Ravens.
It's unfortunate that the Jets had to resort to cheapshot tactics and it's even more unfortunate they are 0-2.
Belichick didn't even cheat. It was a simple videotaping procedure and a mis-interpretation of a rule.
The Jets cheated though. That is clear. they did it repeatedly too as stated by the Ravens.
It's unfortunate that the Jets had to resort to cheapshot tactics and it's even more unfortunate they are 0-2.
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mad sweeney
Footballguy
I saw at least 3 flags for that this weekend, although not in the Jets game obviously. I put this one on the refs, it's their job to catch it and flag it. In fact I even believe the Pats got flagged for it on Sunday night. Not a big deal and simlpy a straw for Pats fans to grab at in the wake of real cheating.
This Pats fan's last 7 days - many of you are in the same boat:
Monday: coming of a great win, start getting harassing calls from Jets college buddies about Camera-gate.
Tuesday: more harassment. Can't listen to radio because The Herd is hatin' the whole time. Denial sets in.
Wednesday: Anger replaces denial - send an email to the organization expressing disgust.
Thursday: Jets buddies still rippin. Anger toward team now directed at them. Also at LT, who says "if the Pats aren't cheatin', they ain't tryin'. Now I'm ripped and love my team again.
Friday/Saturday: Avoid every person who I know would bring it up, including wife.
Sunday: Pats tailgate is angry! Fans get ripped and absolutely pummel the Bolts as they enter the field. Belichick get HUGE ovation during introductions. Pats smoke Bolts - crowd in playoff-like atmosphere....frenzied.
Monday: Satisfaction over win (and Jets loss). Hearing that Mangini has broken some sort of secret coaches code.
Tuesday: Billick whining about loud audibles - but directed at Jets. Love it. Realize that the season is going to drag until December when the Jets come to NE to play.
I love this game.....
Monday: coming of a great win, start getting harassing calls from Jets college buddies about Camera-gate.
Tuesday: more harassment. Can't listen to radio because The Herd is hatin' the whole time. Denial sets in.
Wednesday: Anger replaces denial - send an email to the organization expressing disgust.
Thursday: Jets buddies still rippin. Anger toward team now directed at them. Also at LT, who says "if the Pats aren't cheatin', they ain't tryin'. Now I'm ripped and love my team again.
Friday/Saturday: Avoid every person who I know would bring it up, including wife.
Sunday: Pats tailgate is angry! Fans get ripped and absolutely pummel the Bolts as they enter the field. Belichick get HUGE ovation during introductions. Pats smoke Bolts - crowd in playoff-like atmosphere....frenzied.
Monday: Satisfaction over win (and Jets loss). Hearing that Mangini has broken some sort of secret coaches code.
Tuesday: Billick whining about loud audibles - but directed at Jets. Love it. Realize that the season is going to drag until December when the Jets come to NE to play.
I love this game.....
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jonessed
Footballguy
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Nope, he's pretty much dead on right. Blame the officials for this one. It's their job to see this and call it.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
fixedThis attitude towards Pats fans is one of the worst elements of the Shark Pool. Made even worse because it is perpetuated and encouraged by senior mods.Pats fans are no more whiny or tooly than other teams' fans; they are simply more prominent because the team has recently won three Super Bowls. BEEN CAUGHT CHEATING (Oh, and getting lumped in with the out-of-conrol Boston Red Sox mania does not help either.
greenline
Footballguy
*Eric Mangini = Belichick's ball boyNope, he's pretty much dead on right. Blame the officials for this one. It's their job to see this and call it.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Belichick=tarnished face of NFL*Eric Mangini = Belichick's ball boyNope, he's pretty much dead on right. Blame the officials for this one. It's their job to see this and call it.
twitch
Footballguy
I dont think forfeiting any of their games is gonna be nessecary.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
As the topic starter, I must confess that I don't view this as a real story.
Rather, I think it paints a beautiful picture of subtext in which reality occurs. In the past, Ray Lewis has repeatedly complimented the Patriots organization as the ideal which others should strive for. It is reasonable to assume that Billick shares his views. Does Billick have a hidden agenda here? Does he feel the Patriots were unreasonably thrown under the bus by others? I suspect there is some truth to that speculation, and some truth to the speculation that he is punishing Mangini for breaking the code. If true, his actions are in fact dishonorable, but they should teach us all something about the way the world works, and in particular the way a multi-billion dollar industry works.
I believe Belichick should have been suspended for 1-2 games, and would have "swallowed" a 4 game suspension without much grimacing, but I find the asterisk offensive. Feel free to continue to apply it, and I will feel free to continue to be a "whiny tool".
The fact that the sarcasm of my original post was disregarded, and it was inferred that this was deflection on my part, is hilarious. I wouldn't be surprised to see this thread hit 5 pages by the end of the day.
It's just a game people. Belichick was found to be in violation of a league rule. He apologized, accepted ownership for his actions, and has moved on. But this is not good enough for "amazing reporters" and the good people of NYC. Nobody cheered when Bledsoe went down to injury, and we'll gladly take ARod off your hands if you aren't happy with his performance in the clutch.
Peace out.
Rather, I think it paints a beautiful picture of subtext in which reality occurs. In the past, Ray Lewis has repeatedly complimented the Patriots organization as the ideal which others should strive for. It is reasonable to assume that Billick shares his views. Does Billick have a hidden agenda here? Does he feel the Patriots were unreasonably thrown under the bus by others? I suspect there is some truth to that speculation, and some truth to the speculation that he is punishing Mangini for breaking the code. If true, his actions are in fact dishonorable, but they should teach us all something about the way the world works, and in particular the way a multi-billion dollar industry works.
I believe Belichick should have been suspended for 1-2 games, and would have "swallowed" a 4 game suspension without much grimacing, but I find the asterisk offensive. Feel free to continue to apply it, and I will feel free to continue to be a "whiny tool".
The fact that the sarcasm of my original post was disregarded, and it was inferred that this was deflection on my part, is hilarious. I wouldn't be surprised to see this thread hit 5 pages by the end of the day.
It's just a game people. Belichick was found to be in violation of a league rule. He apologized, accepted ownership for his actions, and has moved on. But this is not good enough for "amazing reporters" and the good people of NYC. Nobody cheered when Bledsoe went down to injury, and we'll gladly take ARod off your hands if you aren't happy with his performance in the clutch.
Peace out.
greenline
Footballguy
tarnished face of NFL = Jets snap count practicesBelichick=tarnished face of NFL*Eric Mangini = Belichick's ball boyNope, he's pretty much dead on right. Blame the officials for this one. It's their job to see this and call it.
greenline
Footballguy
I got it VBD.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
snap count practice=holding happens every play, refs need to call it not even in the same ballpark as institutionalized violation of league rules. But hey, if it makes you feel better about your team's dynasty in question go ahead. It only lowers my opinion of the clueless Pats fans grasping at straws to save their team's rep. Makes me even more excited for more sanctions to hit the team after Goodell gets the years worth of tapes and figures out the RF cheating that went on. Sorry to to the wholesome and reasonable Pats fans, but this thread, sarcastic or not, is a prime example of how ridiculous the reaction from a lot of Pats fans is.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I see people drawing a distinction between a league rule and a field rule. I agree with that distinction. I don't think what Billick is doing is analagous to what Mangini did to Belichick. It's analagous to what Polian did with his complaints about uncalled pass interference.
But it seems obvious that Billick is making a political statement. Polian went to the commissioner for his own personal advantage. Polian may have been right to be mad at the officiating in the AFCCG, but it's still whiny. I would think it's hypocritical for anyone to have a problem with Billick doing this who didn't have a problem with Polian complaining about the Pats.
As a Patriots fan, I think it's funny. I like seeing this happen to Mangini after he called out Belichick, and I hope it keeps happening to him. I enjoy the schoolyard justice aspect of it. The commissioner may have sided with Mangini, but the coaches are starting to voice their displeasure with his actions. Part of me hopes that people call Mangini out in every game they play this season, reporting him for coaching his players to hold on every play, or for pass interference, or whatever.
As a realist, I think that Mangini is going to have a hard time getting a job in the future. Unless he has a tremendous run with the Jets, or this eventually blows over, it's going to be very difficult for someone to justify bringing in someone who did so much damage to his previous organization after he left. Would you hire someone who had publicly soured his relationship with his previous boss and then burned him that badly? Wouldn't you wonder if he might do the same to you? From the perspective of a future employer, hiring Mangini is a greater risk than hiring another coach.
As an ethical adult, I don't like the idea of blackballing whistleblowers. When someone gets reported for doing something wrong, it's their fault, not the fault of the person who reported them. It doesn't matter who else was doing something wrong, if you break the rules, you should accept responsibility for it. It's childish and wrong to get mad at someone for "tattling".
But in this case, Mangini was not whistleblowing. Mangini had a motivated self interest in reporting Belichick, and, if he was involved in cheating in New England in the past, then I think he's a hypocrite and a liar and that reporting this for his own advantage was unethical, even though the cheating itself was obviously even more unethical. If he had done this while he was a member of the organization, it would be more ethical, and I would have a bigger problem with Billick reporting him, or the blackballing he will likely receive in the future. But in this case, that doesn't appear the case.
So, in summary, it made me happy to hear that Billick did this.
But it seems obvious that Billick is making a political statement. Polian went to the commissioner for his own personal advantage. Polian may have been right to be mad at the officiating in the AFCCG, but it's still whiny. I would think it's hypocritical for anyone to have a problem with Billick doing this who didn't have a problem with Polian complaining about the Pats.
As a Patriots fan, I think it's funny. I like seeing this happen to Mangini after he called out Belichick, and I hope it keeps happening to him. I enjoy the schoolyard justice aspect of it. The commissioner may have sided with Mangini, but the coaches are starting to voice their displeasure with his actions. Part of me hopes that people call Mangini out in every game they play this season, reporting him for coaching his players to hold on every play, or for pass interference, or whatever.
As a realist, I think that Mangini is going to have a hard time getting a job in the future. Unless he has a tremendous run with the Jets, or this eventually blows over, it's going to be very difficult for someone to justify bringing in someone who did so much damage to his previous organization after he left. Would you hire someone who had publicly soured his relationship with his previous boss and then burned him that badly? Wouldn't you wonder if he might do the same to you? From the perspective of a future employer, hiring Mangini is a greater risk than hiring another coach.
As an ethical adult, I don't like the idea of blackballing whistleblowers. When someone gets reported for doing something wrong, it's their fault, not the fault of the person who reported them. It doesn't matter who else was doing something wrong, if you break the rules, you should accept responsibility for it. It's childish and wrong to get mad at someone for "tattling".
But in this case, Mangini was not whistleblowing. Mangini had a motivated self interest in reporting Belichick, and, if he was involved in cheating in New England in the past, then I think he's a hypocrite and a liar and that reporting this for his own advantage was unethical, even though the cheating itself was obviously even more unethical. If he had done this while he was a member of the organization, it would be more ethical, and I would have a bigger problem with Billick reporting him, or the blackballing he will likely receive in the future. But in this case, that doesn't appear the case.
So, in summary, it made me happy to hear that Billick did this.
corpcow
Footballguy
The referee and umpire didn't hear this? Trying to draw the defense offsides is a penalty, and if that was happening it should be called...
greenline
Footballguy
mad sweeney = sensitivesnap count practice=holding happens every play, refs need to call it not even in the same ballpark as institutionalized violation of league rules. But hey, if it makes you feel better about your team's dynasty in question go ahead. It only lowers my opinion of the clueless Pats fans grasping at straws to save their team's rep. Makes me even more excited for more sanctions to hit the team after Goodell gets the years worth of tapes and figures out the RF cheating that went on. Sorry to to the wholesome and reasonable Pats fans, but this thread, sarcastic or not, is a prime example of how ridiculous the reaction from a lot of Pats fans is.tarnished face of NFL = Jets snap count practicesBelichick=tarnished face of NFL*Eric Mangini = Belichick's ball boyNope, he's pretty much dead on right. Blame the officials for this one. It's their job to see this and call it.
bostonfred
Footballguy
So you're saying that you think it's OK to break the rules because everyone else is doing it, it's OK for some people to get caught and not others, but that it's not OK for someone to complain to the commissioner.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I think everyone who has posted in this thread, including the original poster, agrees with this. You're not saying anything new here.
Doug B
Footballguy
Read the article in the OP. This particular violation is in the same league as getting away with holding ... and is absolutely not in the league with planting cameramen on opposing sidelines to tape and analyze signals.
The refs screwed up, pure and simple. The Jets defenders should have been given Unsportsmenlike Conduct penalties for mimicking the snap count. That said ... this kind of thing is done at every level past Pop Warner. It was done for and against my high school team, for starters. Like holding ... sometimes it was called, sometimes it was not.
The refs screwed up, pure and simple. The Jets defenders should have been given Unsportsmenlike Conduct penalties for mimicking the snap count. That said ... this kind of thing is done at every level past Pop Warner. It was done for and against my high school team, for starters. Like holding ... sometimes it was called, sometimes it was not.
corpcow
Footballguy
The key word there, as others have subsequently posted, is that a "penalty" is an on-the-field violation by players, not a team-driven violation of administrative rules.But thanks for your insight.
sho nuff
Footballguy
The Pats got caught cheating 6 times during the San Diego game...got punished 67 yards.
What the Jets did is not cheating. Its a penalty if called people.
No different than holding a guy to gain an advantage, offsides to try and get across the line quicker, illegal contact...and so on.
What the Jets did is not cheating. Its a penalty if called people.
No different than holding a guy to gain an advantage, offsides to try and get across the line quicker, illegal contact...and so on.
1huskerfan
Footballguy
Stick to Dungeons and Dragons.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Yes, we've all agreed with all of this. You're still not adding anything new. But in the meantime, Doug B and sho nuff came in to make the same point you're making.Edit: can't keep up
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corpcow
Footballguy
Well, apparently "we" doesn't include everyone.
Nigel
Footballguy
Mangini should have sent someone over to the Pats sideline before the game to deliver a message that if he sees that guy filming, he's going to make a stink. Maybe, forgetting how much the Jets suck, he actually thought calling them out during the game would cause enough of a disruption on the Pats sideline that it would give the Jets an edge during that game. I don't really know what he hoped would come of it but I can't imagine that he foresaw a forfeited #1, $750K fine, a firestorm of unrelenting press coverage, and the negative light in which he will be viewed by peers for the rest of his career. I'm certain he would play it differently if he could turn back time.show me one post where a pats fan says this deflects from their cheating
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Tip: don't try.
twitch
Footballguy
Players HOLD to protect their QBs from injury or to SPONTANEOUSLY advance the ball, whether right or wrong. If they get caught, its 'cheating' and its penalized. Calling out false snap counts throughout an entire game is NOT spontaneous, its not intended to protect the health of anyone. Its planned, its CHEESY, its bushleague, its extremely weak, and of course its cheating to its own degree. doesnt need to be compared to other forms of cheating like holding or interference.
It would be like going golfing with your buddy, standing behind him on a putt, and hollering, "NOONAN"!...........all day! it might be funny or cute after a putt or 2, but beyond that it gets old and weak. And at the end of the day, if it goes on all day, and I never stopped it because I didnt want to have to beat my buddy down because he's much smaller than me, Ill just let him know how weak it was and put it behind me. of course it wouldnt have mattered much because Im a scratch golfer and would have been crushing my buddy throughout the day anyway because he's a horrible golfer.
Billick's bottom line point is that while the Ravens crushed the Jets throughout the day and completely dominated, his team was called for 11 penalties while the beatdown Jets were only called for 2. Thats a pretty ugly disparity, and at that point Id be pissed, too.
It would be like going golfing with your buddy, standing behind him on a putt, and hollering, "NOONAN"!...........all day! it might be funny or cute after a putt or 2, but beyond that it gets old and weak. And at the end of the day, if it goes on all day, and I never stopped it because I didnt want to have to beat my buddy down because he's much smaller than me, Ill just let him know how weak it was and put it behind me. of course it wouldnt have mattered much because Im a scratch golfer and would have been crushing my buddy throughout the day anyway because he's a horrible golfer.
Billick's bottom line point is that while the Ravens crushed the Jets throughout the day and completely dominated, his team was called for 11 penalties while the beatdown Jets were only called for 2. Thats a pretty ugly disparity, and at that point Id be pissed, too.
Oh for the love of all football please tell me you don't believe that. You can't be that guy. I can't imagine you really believe that.Accept he cheated. Accept he got busted because he did it badly. Stop pretending that this very, very smart man misinterpreted the rules. I guarentee you he knew the rules - if he didn't then he's alot less bright than we thought. Just stop rationalizing and pretending the Pats are this perfect organization who couldn't possibly have cheated. It's not reality.
See, this here is why the Pats fans are getting reamed on the board. You're bitter and myopic.
Honestly, both of these things have been way overblown, but you ain't helping that.
If the Jets were illegally simulating the count, they should have been busted in game. Every ref, from now on, should be very aware that the Jets were (allegedly) doing this and watch more carefully. If it happened it should have been called and the Jets should have been penelized. If Mangini's guys do it again, they should get penalized.
I could be wrong - maybe it's a mere 'misintepretation of the rules'.
Banger
Footballguy
from what I've heard, there's no love loss between the two and the gamesmanship has continued to ratchet up with bringing in each others cut players, the handshake thing last year, etc. I'm sure Mangini is sleeping fine knowing that he helped bust BB.
greenline
Footballguy
LOLOh for the love of all football please tell me you don't believe that. You can't be that guy. I can't imagine you really believe that.Accept he cheated. Accept he got busted because he did it badly. Stop pretending that this very, very smart man misinterpreted the rules. I guarentee you he knew the rules - if he didn't then he's alot less bright than we thought. Just stop rationalizing and pretending the Pats are this perfect organization who couldn't possibly have cheated. It's not reality.
See, this here is why the Pats fans are getting reamed on the board. You're bitter and myopic.
Honestly, both of these things have been way overblown, but you ain't helping that.
If the Jets were illegally simulating the count, they should have been busted in game. Every ref, from now on, should be very aware that the Jets were (allegedly) doing this and watch more carefully. If it happened it should have been called and the Jets should have been penelized. If Mangini's guys do it again, they should get penalized.
I could be wrong - maybe it's a mere 'misintepretation of the rules'.
Nigel
Footballguy
maybe, but I doubt it. this one blew up a little two big.
I thought it pretty funny my own self.LOLOh for the love of all football please tell me you don't believe that. You can't be that guy. I can't imagine you really believe that.Accept he cheated. Accept he got busted because he did it badly. Stop pretending that this very, very smart man misinterpreted the rules. I guarentee you he knew the rules - if he didn't then he's alot less bright than we thought. Just stop rationalizing and pretending the Pats are this perfect organization who couldn't possibly have cheated. It's not reality.
See, this here is why the Pats fans are getting reamed on the board. You're bitter and myopic.
Honestly, both of these things have been way overblown, but you ain't helping that.
If the Jets were illegally simulating the count, they should have been busted in game. Every ref, from now on, should be very aware that the Jets were (allegedly) doing this and watch more carefully. If it happened it should have been called and the Jets should have been penelized. If Mangini's guys do it again, they should get penalized.
I could be wrong - maybe it's a mere 'misintepretation of the rules'.
bostonfred
Footballguy
By the way, lol at Billick's actual statements
"They did an outstanding job. I credit the New York Jets. Their defensive line and linebackers did a very, very effective job of illegally simulating the snap count," Billick said. "They did it the whole game long. It needs to be caught."
I credit the Jets. They lost, and I don't have anything good to say about their performance, but they cheated really effectively.
"That's not an excuse by any stretch of the imagination. But it is illegal," Billick said. "Our guys have to deal with it. I don't know how to help my linemen with that because, you're in the heat of battle and you're calling the snap count, and the guy across from you is also calling a snap count - which is illegal."
Nice subtle jab by taking it so seriously.
"They did an outstanding job. I credit the New York Jets. Their defensive line and linebackers did a very, very effective job of illegally simulating the snap count," Billick said. "They did it the whole game long. It needs to be caught."
I credit the Jets. They lost, and I don't have anything good to say about their performance, but they cheated really effectively.
"That's not an excuse by any stretch of the imagination. But it is illegal," Billick said. "Our guys have to deal with it. I don't know how to help my linemen with that because, you're in the heat of battle and you're calling the snap count, and the guy across from you is also calling a snap count - which is illegal."
Nice subtle jab by taking it so seriously.
Banger
Footballguy
I think from a competitive balance POV he would be pretty happy that a tough division rival would lose a 1st rounder. I don't really see a lot of bad press about Mangini (except from Pats fans) and doubt that he feels bad about humiliating BB in front of the world but I could be wrong. In 3 weeks people will forget about Mangini's role but BB's role will be remember for the rest of his career.
I did enjoy that as well. Billick's a master of the sarcastic quip. As much as it is a complaint, he doesn't come off as whiny, IMO - because he isn't complainign about the refs, which is usually how one comes off sounding whiny.
It was well phrased.
Truth.
phthalatemagic
Footballguy
*applause*
DoubleG
Footballguy
Ummm...it's in the rules.
I don't think whether the rule is fair or not is the point of discussion.
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Banger
Footballguy
dude do you ever have anything to add except trying to antagonize? If you have I must've missed the post.
