NFL Fines Out of Control (2 Viewers)

[Desert_Power]

It seems like more of these are happening each week. Breece Hall was hit for 43k on this play: https://x.com/RichCimini/status/1733597186263261355?s=20

 

[FarFromHome]

It really is getting out of hand. I'm pretty sure some teams pay them. Be interesting to see which fines were paid by the player and which ones the teams picked up to them.

 

[Snoopy]

It really is getting out of hand. I'm pretty sure some teams pay them. Be interesting to see which fines were paid by the player and which ones the teams picked up to them.

Have to be under the table as teams are no longer allowed to directly nor indirectly pay a player's fine.

 

[FarFromHome]

It really is getting out of hand. I'm pretty sure some teams pay them. Be interesting to see which fines were paid by the player and which ones the teams picked up to them.

Have to be under the table as teams are no longer allowed to directly nor indirectly pay a player's fine.

Didnt know that.

 

[Desert_Power]

It really is getting out of hand. I'm pretty sure some teams pay them. Be interesting to see which fines were paid by the player and which ones the teams picked up to them.

Have to be under the table as teams are no longer allowed to directly nor indirectly pay a player's fine.

That's disappointing when it is an entire game check.

 

[BobbyLayne]

ARSB was fined $43,709 for this block

slowed down & zoomed in

4.65% of his $940K salary

($52.2K weekly game check)

 

[menobrown]

They at least need to change the system and do it as some kind of percentage relative to your pay. This seems especially egregious to the lower paid RB position. I believe he appealed a chunk of this off but Jaylen Warren got about $97k in fines which is 11% of his annual gross(I sure hope these fines are pre-tax). Even Breece is only at like $1.1M this year, it's really not some small think got get hit with a fine like this.


These amounts for this kind of pay you really start messing with families and individuals relying on this money, not to live the high life, just to live a decent one.

 

[Insein]

They've been fining RBs all year for these alleged dangerous plays but I've yet to see where these have caused any injuries.

 

[Snoopy]

An appeal can be made if the fine is over 25% of the weekly salary of a first offense of the year or 50% if it is a second offense.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I sure hope these fines are pre-tax

They are not, they are post-tax.

So think about Amon-Ra (or Breece)....dude gets his pay in 18 equal installments during the season.* Now they probably withhold 31.65% - most high income folks have 25% federal withheld and then make quarterly tax payments, plus MI has a 4.25% rate, and his Detroit game checks are another 2.4%. His take home net pay is around $35,693.89, plus he's got to save $6,266.67 of that for his quarterly federal tax payment. His effective net income is $29,427.22. Meaning that fine is more than 1.5 times his after tax game check.

Now fines are post-tax, but thankfully they are tax deductible. A lot of their expenses fall under miscellaneous job expenses: agent fees, legal fees related to endorsements and contract reviews, personal trainer, personal chef, sports psychologist, etc. Fines from the league are allowed by the IRS to be claimed as a business expense.

Therefore that $43,709 would be deducted on page 1 of his 1040, meaning effectively it cost him $27,536.67. In other words, bc that $43,709 is a business expense, he won't pay tax on that portion of his salary. 37% x $43,709 = $16,172.33, e.g., he will pay $16K less in federal taxes bc that is now a business expense.

Further (really getting into the weeds now), state and local income taxes are based on the federal return. The starting point is usually (though not always, some state & local taxing authorities claw it back) Adjusted Gross Income - the number at the bottom of page 1 of the Federal 1040. So it's possible he will save another 6.65% ($2,906.65) on his Michigan and Detroit returns.**

Now we're up to $19K tax savings bc of the business expense deduction, making the net cash outlay for the fine around $24.6K. Still a *****, though - those fines are hefty enough they truly do impact the players. The overwhelming vast majority of the 2000 players on 53-man rosters and 16-man practice squads are making non-guaranteed minimum/vet minimum salaries.

*salary is paid out in 18 equal installments during the season. when players are in OTAs, Minicamp, Training Camp, and Preseason, they receive per diem to cover meals and living expenses.

**the average pro athlete has to file 25 tax returns every year with the state and local municipalities where their game checks are earned. EDIT - that's for MLB, NBA, NHL, PGA, et al....I didn't have too many NFL clients back in the day (only 1 most years IIRC.) Since their schedules don't have 15-30 road cities per year, but rather 8-10, they probably have less than 20 returns to file.

 

[Joe Bryant]

The fines are ridiculous.

It's stealing money from the players.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

I sure hope these fines are pre-tax

They are not, they are post-tax.

So think about Amon-Ra (or Breece)....dude gets his pay in 18 equal installments during the season.* Now they probably withhold 31.65% - most high income folks have 25% federal withheld and then make quarterly tax payments, plus MI has a 4.25% rate, and his Detroit game checks are another 2.4%. His take home net pay is around $35,693.89, plus he's got to save $6,266.67 of that for his quarterly federal tax payment. His effective net income is $29,427.22. Meaning that fine is more than 1.5 times his after tax game check.

Now fines are post-tax, but thankfully they are tax deductible. A lot of their expenses fall under miscellaneous job expenses: agent fees, legal fees related to endorsements and contract reviews, personal trainer, personal chef, sports psychologist, etc. Fines from the league are allowed by the IRS to be claimed as a business expense.

Therefore that $43,709 would be deducted on page 1 of his 1040, meaning effectively it cost him $27,536.67. In other words, bc that $43,709 is a business expense, he won't pay tax on that portion of his salary. 37% x $43,709 = $16,172.33, e.g., he will pay $16K less in federal taxes bc that is now a business expense.

Further (really getting into the weeds now), state and local income taxes are based on the federal return. The starting point is usually (though not always, some state & local taxing authorities claw it back) Adjusted Gross Income - the number at the bottom of page 1 of the Federal 1040. So it's possible he will save another 6.65% ($2,906.65) on his Michigan and Detroit returns.**

Now we're up to $19K tax savings bc of the business expense deduction, making the net cash outlay for the fine around $24.6K. Still a *****, though - those fines are hefty enough they truly do impact the players. The overwhelming vast majority of the 2000 players on 53-man rosters and 16-man practice squads are making non-guaranteed minimum/vet minimum salaries.

*salary is paid out in 18 equal installments during the season. when players are in OTAs, Minicamp, Training Camp, and Preseason, they receive per diem to cover meals and living expenses.

**the average pro athlete has to file 25 tax returns every year with the state and local municipalities where their game checks are earned. EDIT - that's for MLB, NBA, NHL, PGA, et al....I didn't have too many NFL clients back in the day (only 1 most years IIRC.) Since their schedules don't have 15-30 road cities per year, but rather 8-10, they probably have less than 20 returns to file.

Interesting. So even if an athlete lives and plays in a state with lower taxes they still are paying more every time they play a team in a higher tax state. Up to half their game checks could be affected?

 

[BobbyLayne]

The fines are ridiculous.

It's stealing money from the players.

“The fines collected are donated to the Professional Athletes Foundation to support Legends in need and the NFL Foundation to further support the health, safety and wellness of athletes across all levels, including youth football and the communities that support the game.”

What a crock. NFL player fines as November 27 have $15.5M. NFL revenue last year was $18.6B. If they were that concerned with needy legends they are more than able to do so without the smokescreen.

Fines - $15,500,000
divided by
Revenue - $18,600,000,000
equals
0.00083333333

 

[BobbyLayne]

I sure hope these fines are pre-tax

They are not, they are post-tax.

So think about Amon-Ra (or Breece)....dude gets his pay in 18 equal installments during the season.* Now they probably withhold 31.65% - most high income folks have 25% federal withheld and then make quarterly tax payments, plus MI has a 4.25% rate, and his Detroit game checks are another 2.4%. His take home net pay is around $35,693.89, plus he's got to save $6,266.67 of that for his quarterly federal tax payment. His effective net income is $29,427.22. Meaning that fine is more than 1.5 times his after tax game check.

Now fines are post-tax, but thankfully they are tax deductible. A lot of their expenses fall under miscellaneous job expenses: agent fees, legal fees related to endorsements and contract reviews, personal trainer, personal chef, sports psychologist, etc. Fines from the league are allowed by the IRS to be claimed as a business expense.

Therefore that $43,709 would be deducted on page 1 of his 1040, meaning effectively it cost him $27,536.67. In other words, bc that $43,709 is a business expense, he won't pay tax on that portion of his salary. 37% x $43,709 = $16,172.33, e.g., he will pay $16K less in federal taxes bc that is now a business expense.

Further (really getting into the weeds now), state and local income taxes are based on the federal return. The starting point is usually (though not always, some state & local taxing authorities claw it back) Adjusted Gross Income - the number at the bottom of page 1 of the Federal 1040. So it's possible he will save another 6.65% ($2,906.65) on his Michigan and Detroit returns.**

Now we're up to $19K tax savings bc of the business expense deduction, making the net cash outlay for the fine around $24.6K. Still a *****, though - those fines are hefty enough they truly do impact the players. The overwhelming vast majority of the 2000 players on 53-man rosters and 16-man practice squads are making non-guaranteed minimum/vet minimum salaries.

*salary is paid out in 18 equal installments during the season. when players are in OTAs, Minicamp, Training Camp, and Preseason, they receive per diem to cover meals and living expenses.

**the average pro athlete has to file 25 tax returns every year with the state and local municipalities where their game checks are earned. EDIT - that's for MLB, NBA, NHL, PGA, et al....I didn't have too many NFL clients back in the day (only 1 most years IIRC.) Since their schedules don't have 15-30 road cities per year, but rather 8-10, they probably have less than 20 returns to file.

Interesting. So even if an athlete lives and plays in a state with lower taxes they still are paying more every time they play a team in a higher tax state. Up to half their game checks could be affected?

We pay taxes based on where the income is earned.

 

[Da Guru]

The fines are ridiculous.

It's stealing money from the players.

And then donated to a charity of their choosing.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I sure hope these fines are pre-tax

They are not, they are post-tax.

So think about Amon-Ra (or Breece)....dude gets his pay in 18 equal installments during the season.* Now they probably withhold 31.65% - most high income folks have 25% federal withheld and then make quarterly tax payments, plus MI has a 4.25% rate, and his Detroit game checks are another 2.4%. His take home net pay is around $35,693.89, plus he's got to save $6,266.67 of that for his quarterly federal tax payment. His effective net income is $29,427.22. Meaning that fine is more than 1.5 times his after tax game check.

Now fines are post-tax, but thankfully they are tax deductible. A lot of their expenses fall under miscellaneous job expenses: agent fees, legal fees related to endorsements and contract reviews, personal trainer, personal chef, sports psychologist, etc. Fines from the league are allowed by the IRS to be claimed as a business expense.

Therefore that $43,709 would be deducted on page 1 of his 1040, meaning effectively it cost him $27,536.67. In other words, bc that $43,709 is a business expense, he won't pay tax on that portion of his salary. 37% x $43,709 = $16,172.33, e.g., he will pay $16K less in federal taxes bc that is now a business expense.

Further (really getting into the weeds now), state and local income taxes are based on the federal return. The starting point is usually (though not always, some state & local taxing authorities claw it back) Adjusted Gross Income - the number at the bottom of page 1 of the Federal 1040. So it's possible he will save another 6.65% ($2,906.65) on his Michigan and Detroit returns.**

Now we're up to $19K tax savings bc of the business expense deduction, making the net cash outlay for the fine around $24.6K. Still a *****, though - those fines are hefty enough they truly do impact the players. The overwhelming vast majority of the 2000 players on 53-man rosters and 16-man practice squads are making non-guaranteed minimum/vet minimum salaries.

*salary is paid out in 18 equal installments during the season. when players are in OTAs, Minicamp, Training Camp, and Preseason, they receive per diem to cover meals and living expenses.

**the average pro athlete has to file 25 tax returns every year with the state and local municipalities where their game checks are earned. EDIT - that's for MLB, NBA, NHL, PGA, et al....I didn't have too many NFL clients back in the day (only 1 most years IIRC.) Since their schedules don't have 15-30 road cities per year, but rather 8-10, they probably have less than 20 returns to file.

Interesting. So even if an athlete lives and plays in a state with lower taxes they still are paying more every time they play a team in a higher tax state. Up to half their game checks could be affected?

We pay taxes based on where the income is earned.

It swings both ways. If you’re an NFL player in California - 12.3% top income tax rate - and the team plays road games in Florida, Texas and Washington state, 16.67% (3/18 or 1/6) of your income is shielded from any state or local tax.

 

[JohnnyU]

What they ought to be doing is fining the referees, not the players.

 

[FarFromHome]

What they ought to be doing is fining the referees, not the players.

Interesting thought. If u really think about it, why not?

 

[IHEARTFF]

Accountants for professional athletes becoming essential workers

 

[babydemon90]

It really is getting out of hand. I'm pretty sure some teams pay them. Be interesting to see which fines were paid by the player and which ones the teams picked up to them.

Have to be under the table as teams are no longer allowed to directly nor indirectly pay a player's fine.

That's disappointing when it is an entire game check.

I mean they aren't playing it all in one go, but spread out no more then 3500 in a single pay check... (unless there's only a few weeks let, then I guess it spreads out over what it can)

 

[babydemon90]

The fines are ridiculous.

It's stealing money from the players.

Players agreed to this system under the CBA. That's not "stealing".

 

[FarFromHome]

The fines are ridiculous.

It's stealing money from the players.

Players agreed to this system under the CBA. That's not "stealing".

I think they agreed to the idea of the fines, but don't agree with the execution. Some of these fines are tough to accept. Cba doesn't expire until 2030.

 

[Catbird]

In light of endorsement income, I am not too worried about the financial conditions faced by either Hall or Amon-Ra.

The point is, I assume, to assess fines large enough to be life altering so the player alters his behavior and it doesn't happen again. A slap on the wrist isn't going to do that. The hits that draw these penalties are intended to be those that are career threatening. It's a blunt instrument and I think the league is trying to be careful about which hits draw huge fines - a tough line to walk (although I can see that the league is also self-protecting against future claims that they didn't do enough to protect players who later demonstrate brain injury). I would support refunding half ( 2/3, 3/4?) after maybe a year with no repeat infractions?

 

[Joe Bryant]

The fines are ridiculous.

It's stealing money from the players.

And then donated to a charity of their choosing.

Doesn't matter what they do with it. To fine them for a play like Breece Hall was fined on, that's crazy what they're doing to the players.

 

[Down Under]

I sure hope these fines are pre-tax

They are not, they are post-tax.

So think about Amon-Ra (or Breece)....dude gets his pay in 18 equal installments during the season.* Now they probably withhold 31.65% - most high income folks have 25% federal withheld and then make quarterly tax payments, plus MI has a 4.25% rate, and his Detroit game checks are another 2.4%. His take home net pay is around $35,693.89, plus he's got to save $6,266.67 of that for his quarterly federal tax payment. His effective net income is $29,427.22. Meaning that fine is more than 1.5 times his after tax game check.

Now fines are post-tax, but thankfully they are tax deductible. A lot of their expenses fall under miscellaneous job expenses: agent fees, legal fees related to endorsements and contract reviews, personal trainer, personal chef, sports psychologist, etc. Fines from the league are allowed by the IRS to be claimed as a business expense.

Therefore that $43,709 would be deducted on page 1 of his 1040, meaning effectively it cost him $27,536.67. In other words, bc that $43,709 is a business expense, he won't pay tax on that portion of his salary. 37% x $43,709 = $16,172.33, e.g., he will pay $16K less in federal taxes bc that is now a business expense.

Further (really getting into the weeds now), state and local income taxes are based on the federal return. The starting point is usually (though not always, some state & local taxing authorities claw it back) Adjusted Gross Income - the number at the bottom of page 1 of the Federal 1040. So it's possible he will save another 6.65% ($2,906.65) on his Michigan and Detroit returns.**

Now we're up to $19K tax savings bc of the business expense deduction, making the net cash outlay for the fine around $24.6K. Still a *****, though - those fines are hefty enough they truly do impact the players. The overwhelming vast majority of the 2000 players on 53-man rosters and 16-man practice squads are making non-guaranteed minimum/vet minimum salaries.

*salary is paid out in 18 equal installments during the season. when players are in OTAs, Minicamp, Training Camp, and Preseason, they receive per diem to cover meals and living expenses.

**the average pro athlete has to file 25 tax returns every year with the state and local municipalities where their game checks are earned. EDIT - that's for MLB, NBA, NHL, PGA, et al....I didn't have too many NFL clients back in the day (only 1 most years IIRC.) Since their schedules don't have 15-30 road cities per year, but rather 8-10, they probably have less than 20 returns to file.

Yes, post-tax.

The fines would only be deductible as a business expense if the player incorporated himself (something a decent percentage of professional athletes do). Miscellaneous business deductions for individuals were eliminated with the 2017 Tax Act.

 

[Down Under]

I sure hope these fines are pre-tax

They are not, they are post-tax.

So think about Amon-Ra (or Breece)....dude gets his pay in 18 equal installments during the season.* Now they probably withhold 31.65% - most high income folks have 25% federal withheld and then make quarterly tax payments, plus MI has a 4.25% rate, and his Detroit game checks are another 2.4%. His take home net pay is around $35,693.89, plus he's got to save $6,266.67 of that for his quarterly federal tax payment. His effective net income is $29,427.22. Meaning that fine is more than 1.5 times his after tax game check.

Now fines are post-tax, but thankfully they are tax deductible. A lot of their expenses fall under miscellaneous job expenses: agent fees, legal fees related to endorsements and contract reviews, personal trainer, personal chef, sports psychologist, etc. Fines from the league are allowed by the IRS to be claimed as a business expense.

Therefore that $43,709 would be deducted on page 1 of his 1040, meaning effectively it cost him $27,536.67. In other words, bc that $43,709 is a business expense, he won't pay tax on that portion of his salary. 37% x $43,709 = $16,172.33, e.g., he will pay $16K less in federal taxes bc that is now a business expense.

Further (really getting into the weeds now), state and local income taxes are based on the federal return. The starting point is usually (though not always, some state & local taxing authorities claw it back) Adjusted Gross Income - the number at the bottom of page 1 of the Federal 1040. So it's possible he will save another 6.65% ($2,906.65) on his Michigan and Detroit returns.**

Now we're up to $19K tax savings bc of the business expense deduction, making the net cash outlay for the fine around $24.6K. Still a *****, though - those fines are hefty enough they truly do impact the players. The overwhelming vast majority of the 2000 players on 53-man rosters and 16-man practice squads are making non-guaranteed minimum/vet minimum salaries.

*salary is paid out in 18 equal installments during the season. when players are in OTAs, Minicamp, Training Camp, and Preseason, they receive per diem to cover meals and living expenses.

**the average pro athlete has to file 25 tax returns every year with the state and local municipalities where their game checks are earned. EDIT - that's for MLB, NBA, NHL, PGA, et al....I didn't have too many NFL clients back in the day (only 1 most years IIRC.) Since their schedules don't have 15-30 road cities per year, but rather 8-10, they probably have less than 20 returns to file.

Interesting. So even if an athlete lives and plays in a state with lower taxes they still are paying more every time they play a team in a higher tax state. Up to half their game checks could be affected?

We pay taxes based on where the income is earned.

It swings both ways. If you’re an NFL player in California - 12.3% top income tax rate - and the team plays road games in Florida, Texas and Washington state, 16.67% (3/18 or 1/6) of your income is shielded from any state or local tax.

Your scenario is only true if the athlete is not a resident of California. An athlete (or any other employee) pays state tax on 100% of their earnings in their state of residence, then is generally allowed a credit for taxes paid to other states/localities. So an LA Ram whose residence is in Florida would pay CA tax on 50% of their gameday pay and other states' taxes on the other 50% (with a few states having 0% tax of course). An LA Ram who lives in CA would pay CA tax on 100% of their earnings, other state's taxes on earnings in those locations, and then receive a credit in CA for those other state taxes, but they would still be paying 12.3% on all of their earnings.