ExaltedOne
Footballguy
Reggie White, Derrick Thomas, Warren Moon, Art Monk, and John Madden should get in.
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NFL Hall of Fame Finalists (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter doughboydeluxe
- Start date
He hasn't been nominated a lot before, although with Seniors' Committee guys that's not such a big deal - lots of those nominees have gotten fairly quickly since they are from a large pool that is skimmed off the top.I know who he is and have seen him play some, but I'd put him behind Kuechenberg.
Here's a coupon for the HoF:
HoF Coupon
JohnDoe
Footballguy
Don't the VC nominees usually make it each year? If not, when was the last time they did not make it? If the VC nominee is automatic then Madden and Rayfield Wright are locks. IMO the rest of the class will be:Reggie White - career highlights are still fresh in the voter's mind(he died early last year)Troy Aikman - Leader if the Cowboy teams of the 90s. Will get most of the credit for their accomplishments and should be the first of Aikman/Irvin/Smith to go.and possibly one from this list:Bob Kuechenberg - Great OL for the DolphinsWarren Moon - Has been discussedArt Monk - Has already been discussedDerrick Thomas - Sack artist who died early.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
1) 6 guys can get in. If both Seniors candidates make it, then only 4 other players can get in.2) The knocks on Madden: Raiders went to a Super Bowl two years before he took over and won one two years after he left. Many considered Al Davis the true driving force of the team. Raiders won only one Super Bowl under Madden while losing 4 out of 5 AFC title games. On the other hand, his winning percentage is incredible, he did win a title (unlike George Allen), there's no shame in losing to the Dolphins and Steelers in the 1970's, and Madden surely had a tougher group of players to discipline than did Noll or Shula. Plus, given Madden's age, 70, if he's going to get in it should be sooner than later. There are a ton of qualifed candidates this year though and Madden would take a spot away for a player.3) I don't think Monk is a Hall of Famer but even if he is I don't see how he goes in ahead of Irvin.4) Others have pointed out that lots of QB's have gone in lately. Both Aikman and Moon are worthy choices but there would be plenty of chances for both down the line since no other QB looks like a viable selection until Favre becomes eligible. 5) Irvin's most recent shenanigans might cost him. I doubt he would go in without Aikman and if voters only have room for one of them on their ballots, I can't imagine it being Irvin. I'd vote for Reggie White, Thurman Thomas, Harry Carson, Bob Kuechenberg, Warren Moon, and Rayfield Wright.
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Autumn Wind
Footballguy
jetpack
Footballguy
Troy AikmanHarry CarsonL.C. GreenwoodRuss GrimmClaude HumphreyMichael IrvinBob KuechenbergJohn MaddenArt MonkWarren MoonDerrick ThomasThurman ThomasReggie WhiteRayfield WrightGary Zimmerman------------------------------So many wonderful players and worthy choices. I'll go with the most obvious: Troy Aikman - for his SuperbowlsJohn Madden - for being the face of the NFL for so longWarren Moon - because he rockedDerrick Thomas - because everybody remebers his seven sack gameReggie White - because he's one of the all-time greats
psychobillies
Footballguy
I'll say this as I do in most of the HOF threads, b/c it just needs to be said as many times as possible. Any list that does not include Rickey Jackson is not even worth debating over. What is debatable is whether or not he was the 2nd best OLB ever.Some of those guys being considered couldn't hold Rickey's jock. I know that post season success is a consideration, but doesn't playing on bad teams for the majority of your career while putting up #'s every year mean something?
. C'mon man, he's nothing more than an Al Toon that played a few more years.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Actually it's 3-6...You can guarantee Reggie White and Troy Aikman are getting in on this go around. As to the rest? I would say Moon is the 3rd and Thermal probably gets in too, although I'm not sure he gets in this go around.
Jimmy James
Footballguy
I have a theory that the Irvin supporters are mostly the anti-Monk crowd and that the pro-Monk crowd are holding up Irvin out of spite, which means that the two sides are going to have to compromise to allow both in before either will get in. If I understand the closed-door, single room voting process right, that makes a good bit of sense.My ballot would be:Madden, Wright, Derrick Thomas, Kuechenberg, White, and Moon
buster c
Footballguy
I'm of the opinion that Grimm is the overlooked Gibbs I Redskin. Dude was all-decade and the leader of the most dominant OL of the era.all Monk did was to retire as the all-time NFL leader in receptions. Confused by all the Moon love here. I mean, the guy could toss a pretty ball with the best of 'em, but did he ever win anything?
Knightro
Footballguy
I think he's a very viable candidate - I sort of latched onto the Saints when they became Stars South. I have a soft spot for Sam Mills, Jim Mora and the boys.He was on the prelim list:
Preliminary List of HoF candidates
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I'm amazed how little love Thurman Thomas is getting. Is it an anti-Bills bias or something? He was Marshall Faulk before Marshall Faulk and was the one the top 3 or so RBs for a 5-6 year period. He's the second best player on those teams, behind only Bruce Smith and ahead of 2 guys already in the Hall in Kelly and Levy. I sure hope the voters know more about pro football than some of you.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I'd bump Monk, Wright and Grimm.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
Agreed. How is Thurman not a Hall of Famer? The guy was arguably the best RB in football from 1989 to 1993. That's automatic first-ballot Hall of Fame material. As a Dolphin fan, I became all too familiar with how great he was, and it's still frustrating knowing Miami passed on drafting him in 1988. No way Buffalo goes to 4 straight Super Bowls without him.
The_Man
Footballguy
Art Monk set the all-time NFL records for most catches in a career, most catches in a season, and most consecutive games with a catch.THE ALL-TIME NFL RECORDS!!Yes, he has been surpassed by others in the NFL's new pass-happy era, but not putting him in is like not putting in a guy who hit 400 HRs in the 1950s because lots of guys have 400 HRs today.He is also the signature player of a team whose decade-long streak of success in the Super Bowl era is topped only by the Steelers of the 70s, 49ers of the 80s, Cowboys of the 90s and Patriots of today. It is a joke that he and at least one of the Hogs aren't already in the HOF.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
Monk was just as much a beneficiary of "the NFL's new pass-happy era" as are the guys who have surpassed his career totals. Scoring and passing yardage shot way up in the 1980's thanks to the 1978 rules changes. I don't believe offense is substantially higher in this decade than it was in the 1980's (or 1990's). Monk's career began in 1980. It's the overlooked guys from the 1970's (Harold Jackson, Cliff Branch, Harold Carmichael, Drew Pearson) who have the right to complain about overinflated numbers.And Monk is far from the only receiver who once held all-time catch marks who is not in the Hall.
houndirish
Footballguy
I've been trumpeting this for 3 years ... Harry Carson belongs in the Hall of Fame. I really think he's hurt by the fact he played alongside Lawrence Taylor. Some voters may think his success was due to LT but that's simply incorrect. Carson was a dominant MLB before LT was even a Giant and had already recorded a few Pro-Bowl appearances when Taylor came onto the scene.Carson was a All-Pro 7 times and was voted to the Pro Bowl 9 times! Including 7 straight from '82-88. Actually his numbers are remarkably similar to Hall of Famer Mike Singletary. Both became starters midway through their rookie seasons. Carson had 14 career fumble recoveries and 11 interceptions (especially impressive considering he was a Defensive End in college) in 13 seasons. Singletary had 12 fumble recoveries and 7 interceptions in 11 seasons. Singletary had 1 more All-Pro honor and 1 more Pro-Bowl appearance.Carson belongs.I'll also chime in to agree that Art Monk should be in the Hall too.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Carson would quite conceivably be in already if he didn't let his pride get in the way and swear he wouldn't accept induction even if they choose to honor him at this point.7 times All Pro = impressive
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Anyone have a link to the AP All-Pro teams by year?
they have em' listed herehttp://www.infoplease.com/ipsa/A0774672.html
like that's 1998. You should be able to get each year there
aging Matt Millen:MarshallRob
Footballguy
Well, you listed three different records. Yeah, Howton isn't in despite once owning the career catch mark. Harold Carmichael once owned the consecutive game mark and isn't in. And Johnny Morris, Charley Hennigan, Sterling Sharpe, and Herman Moore are among the receivers who have held the single-season catch record yet will likely never be inducted into the Hall.
Abs. O. Lutley. No more QBs in the hall of fame for at least a decade. John Elway and Dan Marino were the last two guys who absolutely HAD to be put into the HoF, despite the glut of QBs, and Brett Favre deserves another exception to the no more QBs rule, but outside of them, no more QBs for 10 years. And make a rule that the committee absolutely HAS to select at least ONE offensive lineman EVERY SEASON over that span.I'm going to throw some support Gary Zimmerman's way. Did you know that he's one of the very few players in NFL history that have made TWO different NFL All-Decade teams? Jerry Rice is the only other one I know off the top of my head. That's pretty dominant, though. Not just All-Pro, the best of the season... he was voted one of the two best offensive tackles OF THE ENTIRE DECADE... in both the 80s, AND the 90s!
David Dodds
Administrator
My vote would be for these guys:Reggie WhiteJohn MaddenWarren MoonThurman Thomas
Sidewinder16
Footballguy
So, because each of these guys once had one of those 3 records and are not in the Hall, Monk should not be in the Hall because he had all 3 at one point?
houndirish
Footballguy
Yeah ... sniping at the peeps who control your fate typically doesn't end well. But don't take Carson's words too seriously. He'd absolutely accept induction if voted in. Not that it matters but do you have a link where he says he won't accept the honor? I don't ever recall him saying that. I do remember him requesting to be left off the ballot if he didn't get in as he was sick of answering the same questions every year about his chances.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
Someone else argued Monk should be in becasue he once owned all 3 records. I simply pointed out that owning (since-broken) records does not guarantee someone a spot in the Hall (nor should it). The consecutive game mark is nice but I don't know that it means a whole lot and Monk's 104-catch season has been surpassed over 20 times. The big deal is the total receptions record. Personally, I think yards and TD's are more important statistical measures of quality and Monk's production per catch in those areas is relatively low.So, because each of these guys once had one of those 3 records and are not in the Hall, Monk should not be in the Hall because he had all 3 at one point?
Sidewinder16
Footballguy
Your examples pointed out that owning a record does not (and should not) guarantee a Hall spot. Monk had 3. Granted, that still doesn't guarantee anything, but to blow it off is putting blinders on.Marvin Harrison and Jerry Rice own those three records now. I don't see how that should hurt Monk.
He has a better yards/catch production than Chris Carter and Marvin Harrison (two shoe-ins for the Hall, IMO) and more total TDs than Charlie Joiner and John Stallworth (two HOFers whose careers overlap Monks and were of similar lengths).Monk was the prototypical "possession" receiver. He generally wasn't asked to run long routes. I just don't understand how anyone who watched him play can say he wasn't one of the greatest at what he did.
I don't think Monk is the best eligible WR not in the hall, and WR aren't terribly under-represented. I do think Carmichael is more deserving, but many would disagree. I think the veterans comittee, unlike baseball's, is bringing very good candidates to the table. Madden should be in. Wright probably should be as well, given the dearth of OL.I prefer Kuechenberg to Zimmerman for one simple reason - eligibilty years left. I think they both should be in, so with the limit of 6 inductees, and having 1 "dead spot" with Aikman as yet another QB with rings who will likely make it in, I prefer fixing mistakes sooner than later.
Sidewinder16
Footballguy
It's a possibility, but I would never call Largent and Monk the same type of receivers.Granted, I mostly saw just highlights of Largent, but I was under the impression he was more of a speedy, deep-threat type of receiver. That wasn't Monk's job in Gibb's offense.
wrcrew
Footballguy
I will probably get hammered for this but the facts are the facts.I don't get the love for Ray Guy. Like most of us, I grew up watching Guy and he was a helluva punter, but do your research. He is being supported based on reputation...check the stats. For a position that has no player in the Hall, the first one let in has to be the best. Punting, maybe more than other positions, has to be stat heavy in looking at how effective a player was.The facts are as follows:Guy is not in the top 5 all-time in average.2 players led the league for more seasons in best league avg (4), and 3 others led the NFL as many seasons as Guy did (3).Guy is not in the top 3 of punts inside the 20. Of the top 5 best seasons as far as punting avg. , Guy has none of them.Again, I am not knocking Guy, probably best punter of our era, just saying he should not be the first punter in the Hall (if they ever let 1 in). I have no problem with him being in, just not as the first and maybe only punter.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
1) Invariably, these HOF threads always turn into an Art Monk discussion. I always thought Monk was a high-quality player and there's really nothing bad to say about him. I just don't think his play merits Hall of Fame selection. Besides Rice, Largent, and Lofton, I think several other of his contemporaries were also better (Clayton, Ellard, Gary Clark). lt wouldn't be an outrage if Monk did get in though.2) Addressing your specific points, Monk's YPC is higher than Carter and Harrison. It's close with Harrison. But obviously it's TD's where Monk falls way short. Carter (130) has twice as many and Harrison (110) will probably do even better.Your examples pointed out that owning a record does not (and should not) guarantee a Hall spot. Monk had 3. Granted, that still doesn't guarantee anything, but to blow it off is putting blinders on.Marvin Harrison and Jerry Rice own those three records now. I don't see how that should hurt Monk.
Monk was the prototypical "possession" receiver. He generally wasn't asked to run long routes. I just don't understand how anyone who watched him play can say he wasn't one of the greatest at what he did.
Monk does have more TD's (68) than Joiner (65) and Stallworth (63). If you want to say Monk was better than Joiner I won't argue. Joiner did play most of his career in the dead-ball 70's though. He had a late career surge thanks to the revamped passing rules and getting to play for the Air Coryell Chargers, but he was not the best receiver on his team in those years. Even if Joiner's selection was a mistake though you can't just put every receiver in the Hall who might have been better or it will be too crowded.
Stallworth only played in 165 games compared to Monk's 224, accounting for the slight TD disparity. I don't see them as comparable players; Stallworth was clearly the superior talent. We all know Stallworth probably wouldn't be in if not for the success of his team. He was tremendous in two Super Bowls and his team might well have lost both games without him. He also caught a TD in 8 straight postseason games. Monk was part of 3 championship teams himself and his cumulative postseason totals are pretty good but he doesn't get the kind of credit Stallworth does because Monk has no signature playoff performance and for whatever reason he was repeatedly bettered by his receiving teammates (Brown, Clark, Sanders) in Super Bowl seasons and in the Super Bowl itself.
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When you look at stats (specifically the 16.0 YpC) you may think Largent was a speedy deep threat guy, but he wasn't. He was just so good at getting (sometimes ridiculously) wide open that he could make good yards after the catch. The Seahawks even specifically went hunting for speed guys to put opposite him - Daryl "the Burner" Turner comes to mind.Monk was a hands/posession reciver primarily. Largent was a hands/posession guy who got so open your closing speed wouldn't help much, and they'd run him down later. Posession guys are not the flashy types, so they frequently go underappreciated, and having Monk who very good at it, being a contemporary of a guy who was great at it hurts Monk.
BoulderBob
Footballguy
If these stats get one into the hall of fame....Rushing | Receiving |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1974 pit | 11 | 1 14 14.0 0 | 11 208 18.9 2 || 1975 pit | 14 | 3 13 4.3 0 | 49 781 15.9 11 || 1976 pit | 12 | 1 2 2.0 0 | 28 516 18.4 3 || 1977 pit | 14 | 2 6 3.0 0 | 50 789 15.8 7 || 1978 pit | 16 | 1 7 7.0 0 | 61 880 14.4 11 || 1979 pit | 13 | 1 9 9.0 1 | 41 808 19.7 5 || 1980 pit | 13 | 1 -4 -4.0 0 | 44 710 16.1 7 || 1981 pit | 13 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 34 505 14.9 5 || 1982 pit | 9 | 1 25 25.0 0 | 18 265 14.7 0 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| TOTAL | 115 | 11 72 6.5 1 | 336 5462 16.3 51 Postseason DataYear Opp Result | RSH YD TD | REC YD TD---------------------+-----------------+----------------- 1975 bal W,28-10 | 0 0 0 | 2 15 0 1975 oak W,16-10 | 0 0 0 | 2 45 0*1975 dal W,21-17 | 0 0 0 | 4 161 1 1976 bal W,40-14 | 0 0 0 | 5 77 2 1976 oak L,7-24 | 0 0 0 | 3 58 0 1977 den L,21-34 | 0 0 0 | 1 6 0 1978 den W,33-10 | 0 0 0 | 2 52 1 1978 hou W,34-5 | 0 0 0 | 4 98 1*1978 dal W,35-31 | 0 0 0 | 7 124 1 1979 mia W,34-14 | 0 0 0 | 3 37 1 1979 hou W,27-13 | 0 0 0 | 4 64 0*1979 ram W,31-19 | 0 0 0 | 5 79 1 1982 sdg L,28-31 | 0 0 0 | 1 14 0---------------------+-----------------+-----------------TOTAL | 0 0 0 | 43 830 8I fail to see how these stats do not.... | Rushing | Receiving |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1988 dal | 14 | 1 2 2.0 0 | 32 654 20.4 5 || 1989 dal | 6 | 1 6 6.0 0 | 26 378 14.5 2 || 1990 dal | 12 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 20 413 20.6 5 || 1991 dal | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 93 1523 16.4 8 || 1992 dal | 16 | 1 -9 -9.0 0 | 78 1396 17.9 7 || 1993 dal | 16 | 2 6 3.0 0 | 88 1330 15.1 7 || 1994 dal | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 79 1241 15.7 6 || 1995 dal | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 111 1603 14.4 10 || 1996 dal | 11 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 64 962 15.0 2 || 1997 dal | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 75 1180 15.7 9 || 1998 dal | 16 | 1 1 1.0 0 | 74 1057 14.3 1 || 1999 dal | 4 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 10 167 16.7 3 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| TOTAL | 159 | 6 6 1.0 0 | 750 11904 15.9 65 |Postseason DataYear Opp Result | RSH YD TD | REC YD TD---------------------+-----------------+----------------- 1991 chi W,17-13 | 0 0 0 | 4 83 0 1991 det L,6-38 | 0 0 0 | 5 84 0 1992 phi W,34-10 | 0 0 0 | 6 88 0 1992 sfo W,30-20 | 0 0 0 | 6 86 0*1992 buf W,52-17 | 0 0 0 | 6 114 2 1993 gnb W,27-17 | 0 0 0 | 9 126 1 1993 sfo W,38-21 | 0 0 0 | 2 23 0*1993 buf W,30-13 | 0 0 0 | 5 66 0 1994 gnb W,35-9 | 0 0 0 | 6 111 0 1994 sfo L,28-38 | 0 0 0 | 12 192 2 1995 phi W,30-11 | 0 0 0 | 1 9 1 1995 gnb W,38-27 | 0 0 0 | 7 100 2*1995 pit W,27-17 | 0 0 0 | 5 75 0 1996 min W,40-15 | 0 0 0 | 8 103 0 1996 car L,17-26 | 0 0 0 | 1 22 0 1998 ari L,7-20 | 0 0 0 | 4 32 0---------------------+-----------------+-----------------TOTAL | 0 0 0 | 87 1314 8
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dgreen
Footballguy
Injuries.He didn't even play in the 1982 playoffs and SB because of injuries. He missed most of the 1987 playoffs, returing for the SB. He was finally healthy for the playoff run of a SB year in 1991. He had a nice SB that year and had a TD called back due to instant replay (one foot was just barely out of bounds).
Unfortunately, he, along with the entire Skins offense, was shut down in SB XVIII.
His best playoff games, statisticly, were in losses. I think that prefectly reflects the type of teams he played on in Washington. His numbers would have been much better had the Redskins not been so successful and pounding the ball to end games.
I appreciate your views on the HOF and anything about the history of the league. You always have well-thought-out arguments and, while I disagree, this is one of them. You state your argument against Monk being great. I think what bothers Monk supporters the most is people that make it sound like Art Monk was just some average player.
His HOF status comes down to what you said earlier:
I think Redskins fans that watched Monk gained an appreciation for the reception; getting 8 yards when you need 7. It's not like his reception numbers are inflated with WR screens or any of this quick hitters like we see today. His receptions were the result of actually running a route and getting open.
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
Great topic - I think Aikman and White are "IN" no matter what, so only 4 spots are really open.Irvin should get in - as should Monk- but Irvin may suffer with Aikman going in. I love a lot of the players up there - Grimm, Kooch, and Zimm means only one OL will get in (prob. Grimm) - and how can you ignore Warren Moon, Thurman Thomas?
All the names I just mentioned really deserve to be in the HOF. Will they induct Aikman and Moon in the same year? Will they make Aikman wait and induct Irvin?
All these are very viable questions among candidates that ALL should get into the HOF at some point.
Then there's the D guys - LC Greenwood, Harry Carson, Derrick Thomas - they give way to Reggie, who is the only true sure fire admit this year.
I'd rank it this way (not in likelihood, but who I think deserves it):
Reggie White
Warren Moon (if you look at his ENTIRE football career, he is a top-5 all time QB in numbers, just not post-season)
Troy Aikman (then there is the postseason)
Thurman Thomas
John Madden
Harry Carson
Art Monk
Michael Irvin (Irvin below only b/c Monk is WAY overdue)
L.C. Greenwood
Russ Grimm
Bob Kuechenberg
Gary Zimmerman
Derrick Thomas
Claude Humphrey (don;t know him)
Rayfield Wright (don;t know him)
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Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
he should already be in - the sad thing is that the longer he is not inducted, given the receivers who will become eligible in the next bunch of years, he won't get in.Similar threads
