NFL Pension for older players (1 Viewer)

[JaxBill]

Interesting, yet somewhat sad article about former players...

Rich Hofmann | Former players blast pension plan

MIAMI - There are few things more eye-opening than shaking hands after meeting an old football player, and then watching him walk away. Time gets to everyone, not just NFL players, and that is all true enough. But their hands, especially the linemen's hands, are these enormous masses of flesh with fingers pointing every which way. And their knees and hips and ankles and feet, they just don't work as well as when their picture is frozen in your mind's eye.

A group of them held a

press conference yesterday - Jerry Kramer and Mike Ditka and Lem Barney and Joe C. Amazingly, the NFL gave them a room in which to hold the conference in the

Super Bowl media center.

Amazingly, because these former stars of the game came to bury former commissioner Paul Tagliabue and, especially, NFL Players Association executive director Gene Upshaw. Some of them tried to talk nice, but DeLamielleure, for one, could not.

"I played next to a guy who's in a homeless shelter," he said. "Our pensions suck, plain and simple. I think Gene Upshaw and Tagliabue are responsible for this. They've been in power for 20 years and did nothing about it."

It is the side of the NFL that nobody likes to talk about but which everyone who has ever played knows is the reality.

The physical brutality takes an awful toll and they all know it. They ignore it during their

careers because they love the money and the fame and the competition. But when it is over, they reach the age of 45 and worry about seeing their grandchildren.

It has hit home for anybody who has followed the Eagles, with the deaths in the last couple of years of Reggie White and Andre Waters. White died from being too big, plain and simple. Waters, according to a doctor in Pittsburgh who examined his brain tissue, died from getting hit on the head so much when he played, his brain was like that of an 85-year-old.

The science isn't there yet, and that is all true enough. We do not know anything with medical, scientific certainty. But all of these players make a bargain, a real-life deal with the devil, when they sign an NFL contract and button their chin strap. The trade is simple: now for later. They know it and they do it anyway, and they live with it.

Today's players will end up with a decent pension and with so much earnings in their career that only a lunkhead will be able to mess it up. The old guys, though, they get hammered both ways: They didn't have the earnings when they played and their pension is a pittance.

After a recent raise, DeLamielleure says he is getting $1,212 a month. (Admittedly, he started taking his pension at age 45.) Other players, though, have much lower benefits.

"It's a tragedy when we see what's going on with our comrades," Barney said.

"I'm not trying to bust anybody's back or embarrass anybody," said Ditka, who went on to reference the story of the late Mike Webster, the Steelers' great center who suffered from dementia and was homeless for a period of time.

"I can't tell you if Mike Webster would have been alive today or not," Ditka said. "But I know he wouldn't have been a damn street person."

Ditka has raised hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years for indigent former NFL players. An auction of memorabilia and solicitation of donations at JerryKramer.com will hopefully raise $500,000 for the cause, Kramer said.

But where is the union?

Where are the current players?

Upshaw sighs when he hears the questions. So does union president Troy Vincent, who says that he has even been asked about it by a former player/current coach: "Hey Troy, when are you going to increase the benefit?"

Upshaw detailed the current efforts being undertaken for struggling old-timers and says that it would take an annual contribution from current player contracts of a staggering $800 million to bring the old-timers' pensions to parity with current players. But that isn't what they want. They just want some more. They just want some dignity. They just want

a financial recognition of one simple fact.

As Ditka said of the current players, "They are not the makers of the game. They are the keepers of the game, period."

As DeLamielleure said, "This is for the guys who built this league on their back, on their knees."

It is for the men, older now, who played when the game offered only minor fame and even less fortune, who drove beer trucks in the offseason and who were told they had headaches, not concussions.

Big hands, crooked fingers, tired gaits; they loved those days and they deserve to enjoy these. Amid all of the Roman-numeraled opulence, there has to be more.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Send e-mail to hofmanr@phillynews.com. For recent columns, go to http://go.philly.com/hofmann.

 

[Family Matters]

I'm glad this is getting some attention. It's long over due. I hope they make some concession for the older vets. With the amount of money in the NFL today, there is no reason they can't take better care of these guys.

On the flip side, I would argue that many of these guys didn't do a good job of planning for their futures and that's on them. Somewhere there is a happy medium but I don't know the answers. I hope they make efforts to get this resolved.

 

[Bevo]

Truely sad. It is too bad that the NFL and the Players union can't work out some sort of deal where they both contribute and at least get these guys some more money. It may not be as much as today's players get but surely there is some way to get them a substantial increase considering the benefits that the league and the players are currently reaping.

 

[golfguy]

i saw that an nfl player that had 10 years of service has a pension of 24,000 a year. that is pretty sad with the billion dollar industry the nfl is nowadays.

i won't even get into them not paying for disability to players hurt playing the game.

 

[Slider]

I don't get it. Say you worked at a $200 million company. You retired and they became a $5 billion company 20 years later. You get your pension boosted?

 

[Bri]

It WAS a percent of their salary then they bumped that as salaries increased, then again....it does keep going up for these guys.

The salary difference is real dramatic though.

Also note in that article the player got his pension at age 45 not 65. How would that work at your company/job if you did that?

 

[Family Matters]

I can understand the argument that says they should only get what they were promised and that just because the company is worth more they shouldn't be entitled. I understand where that line of thinking is from. What you have to consider is that the NFL is a different breed. Most of us have jobs where we aren't at risk for injuries that could keep us from working. An NFL players avg service is 4-5 years. That's not much time to make a living or to plan for one.

What's also important is that many guys from the 60's, 60's and 80's helped build the NFL into what it is today and the current players are reaping the benefits. That's one reason the retired NFL players should be getting treated better.

I can see both sides of this but I'm tend to lean the way of treating the old guys with more financial assistance. At least make so they can make a respectable living especially if they aren't able to work.

 

[Cecil Lammey]

i saw that an nfl player that had 10 years of service has a pension of 24,000 a year. that is pretty sad with the billion dollar industry the nfl is nowadays.i won't even get into them not paying for disability to players hurt playing the game.

I'm very good friends with Dave Logan, one of the best possession receivers from the '70's. He played for 10 seasons with the Browns and 1 with the Broncos. His pension would be only $1,500 per month if he chose to withdraw it. to the NFL on this topic.

 

[GRIDIRON ASSASSIN]

Did Goodell talk about this at all today.

Here's an interesting article that Rick Rielly wrote when Tiki Barber was getting grief about announcing his retirement back in November:

http://www.beaumonde.net/weblog/archives/tikibarber.pdf

 

[Da Guru]

I thought I read that OJ Simpsons pension was 300K is that right?

 

[chris1969]

Way too many sad stories over this. Mike Webster would probably be alive today if the NFL took care of their own, and he was a fairly recent Hall of Famer. I can't imagine what happens to the no-names.

 

[Southside Stosh]

Did Goodell talk about this at all today.

Here's an interesting article that Rick Rielly wrote when Tiki Barber was getting grief about announcing his retirement back in November:

http://www.beaumonde.net/weblog/archives/tikibarber.pdf

Excellent article, Grid

 

[pinequick]

Interesting, yet somewhat sad article about former players...

Rich Hofmann | Former players blast pension plan

After a recent raise, DeLamielleure says he is getting $1,212 a month. (Admittedly, he started taking his pension at age 45.) Other players, though, have much lower benefits.

So this guy has been drawing 14k/year since he was 45 years old?If he is of full retirement age, there is no way he is drawing less than that amount from Social Security. (My dad was a small family farmer born in 1936, retired early, and he is still getting around 10k/yr). So between Social Security and his pension, this guy must be drawing close to 30k/year. That's not going to get him rich, but he's certainly not going to starve on that amount of money, either.

And again, the 14k in supplemental income came for 20 years BEFORE he was eligible for Social Security. Other vets may be worse off (destitute, even), but I'm not sure this guy has too much to complain about. He's certainly not in danger of being destitute.

 

[chris1969]

My guess is he pays more than 30 k a year in medical bills.

 

[ditka311]

I will be honest with you. If I ever get fired, I have no pension whatsoever. I work for one of the company's that was nominated as one of Fortune's Top 100 place to work and I get sh#t if I leave now. So, boo ####ing hoo to these guys and all other union guys.

 

[PMENFAN]

I can understand the argument that says they should only get what they were promised and that just because the company is worth more they shouldn't be entitled. I understand where that line of thinking is from. What you have to consider is that the NFL is a different breed. Most of us have jobs where we aren't at risk for injuries that could keep us from working. An NFL players avg service is 4-5 years. That's not much time to make a living or to plan for one.What's also important is that many guys from the 60's, 60's and 80's helped build the NFL into what it is today and the current players are reaping the benefits. That's one reason the retired NFL players should be getting treated better.I can see both sides of this but I'm tend to lean the way of treating the old guys with more financial assistance. At least make so they can make a respectable living especially if they aren't able to work.

The IBM from the 50's helped make the company what it is today. Every companies early pioneers build the company. That's business. Yes, the average football player has a career expectancy of 4-5 years. What they also typically have is a full ride college scholarship. The average employee doesn't have that. They have a ticket to a far easier life than they typical persona laid at their feet. Then they have the marketability of being a former NFL player in their portfolio. If they make choices to not take advantage of their situation, it's not the fault of the NFL pension program. It's the fault of individual choices made. I think it's completely unfair to come back and demand more money. I don't think the intent of the 24k is to 'retire' as in never work again at 45, but to supplement their future earnings. I think it's more than fair. They're essentially sill paid for playing, but not playing anymore. Now, yes the league makes a lot of money, but like you said, the average career is 4-5 years. That's a lot of churn. There are a lot of former football guys getting pensions. In a company, you typically had to work at least 5 years to get any pension, but 20 years to get a significant pension. Companies have dumped traditional pensions, with only about 30% still having them. The new model is the 401k. Yes, the guys in the early days made less. They also had no mini-camps, no off season programs, etc. They had the opportunity to have another job during their playing days, or plan for the future. Some did, some didn't. The number in poverty is very, very small. Lastly, the union contract is merely a framework for the negotiation of individual contracts. Yes, some players make millions, but many, in fact most, are making right around and under the $1mm mark. Part of it is the groundwork of the forebearers, but most of it is the extraordinary talents of the current players, coupled with the extraordinary idiocy of the current owners. I'm just not an advocate of backward looking rewards. Yes, it's a physical job, yes there are risks of injury. The players knew this. Nobody made them play football for a living. They knew the risks, they knew the DEFINED rewards at the time. Because of the success of later business enterprises within the institution, such as fightinf off the USFL, they shouldn't be rewarded just because they played in the league at one point.

 

[PMENFAN]

My guess is he pays more than 30 k a year in medical bills.

Medicare kicks in w/ SS. He's not paying $30k annually. If he planned his life, his house is paid for. It's a pretty sweet life at 30k w/ no house payment. You can't blame the NFL for poor financial management. At 30k, he pays no federal taxes. Depending on the state, no, or at least very little in state taxes. Retirees no longer pay SS/Medicare. There's 7.75% more in take home pay. As for $30k in annual medical expenses. I agree the medical situation in America is dire, but very, very few people face this situation. It's another whole issue, but like I said, in the interim, there is medicare for seniors.

 

[PMENFAN]

i saw that an nfl player that had 10 years of service has a pension of 24,000 a year. that is pretty sad with the billion dollar industry the nfl is nowadays.i won't even get into them not paying for disability to players hurt playing the game.

I'm very good friends with Dave Logan, one of the best possession receivers from the '70's. He played for 10 seasons with the Browns and 1 with the Broncos. His pension would be only $1,500 per month if he chose to withdraw it. to the NFL on this topic.

Logan is an ICON. But to be fair, that's $18k a year. What was his salary when he played. You HAVE to compare the two. Just because the NFL is a larger, more profitable, enterprise doesnt mean the guys who worked there 20-30 years ago should get to capitalize. The economics just wouldn't work. Play for 10 years, collect 25% of your salary for 40 omre? Collect 50%, 100%, 200%? The pension plan goes far and beyond what a typical job offers. Logan also had a full ride, IIRC< to CU. What is his pension from there? He got his degree in exchange for playing, and a degree, gut nothing ense. It also got him into the NFL. BUt what else. For the record, I still think Logan should be the CU coach, if he wants it. But, did Logan just quit football and quit life? NO. He's been an outstanding football coach. He groomed one of the great high school football prospects that most have never heard of. Sort of the college version of Ryan Leaf, but the kid just partied too much. His name was Steve Cutlip. Played for Logan at Arvada West, IIRC, and then to Sonny Lubick at CU. My memory is foggy, but it seems that Logan/Cutlip went to states and lost then won. Then Logan left. Anyhow, the best high school QB I've ever seen. Just immature and lost it all with bad decisions. Maybe you remember the kid. If not, ask Dave, because he should. So, he's a great football coach, and he also has/had (I left Denver in 2004) a drive time sports talk show, and he's one of the best sports talk guys I've listened to, in a local market. He was the knoledge guy, and they paired him w/ Scott Hastings for 'color'. Real level headed, fair analysis. My point is Dave Logan was a football player. Actually, he was a 3 sport sport God, but keep to football, because that's where he excelled and made his FIRST career. He recognized that he couldn't retire at 32, and utilized that degree that he earned by playing football, and the knowledge he learned by playing football to become so much more. Let's be realistic. Should any job out there afford anybody the opportunity to work for 3, 5, 10 years and live off of the pension? I live in the real world. These guys need to as well. Follow the Dave Logan model. Actually there are tons of other guys that can be pointed to that are a success. The guys that fail, jsut as in society as a whole, are the minority, and typically it's personal decisions that lead to it, not institutional deficiencies.

 

[Cecil Lammey]

i saw that an nfl player that had 10 years of service has a pension of 24,000 a year. that is pretty sad with the billion dollar industry the nfl is nowadays.i won't even get into them not paying for disability to players hurt playing the game.

I'm very good friends with Dave Logan, one of the best possession receivers from the '70's. He played for 10 seasons with the Browns and 1 with the Broncos. His pension would be only $1,500 per month if he chose to withdraw it. to the NFL on this topic.

Logan is an ICON. But to be fair, that's $18k a year. What was his salary when he played. You HAVE to compare the two. Just because the NFL is a larger, more profitable, enterprise doesnt mean the guys who worked there 20-30 years ago should get to capitalize. The economics just wouldn't work. Play for 10 years, collect 25% of your salary for 40 omre? Collect 50%, 100%, 200%? The pension plan goes far and beyond what a typical job offers. Logan also had a full ride, IIRC< to CU. What is his pension from there? He got his degree in exchange for playing, and a degree, gut nothing ense. It also got him into the NFL. BUt what else. For the record, I still think Logan should be the CU coach, if he wants it. But, did Logan just quit football and quit life? NO. He's been an outstanding football coach. He groomed one of the great high school football prospects that most have never heard of. Sort of the college version of Ryan Leaf, but the kid just partied too much. His name was Steve Cutlip. Played for Logan at Arvada West, IIRC, and then to Sonny Lubick at CU. My memory is foggy, but it seems that Logan/Cutlip went to states and lost then won. Then Logan left. Anyhow, the best high school QB I've ever seen. Just immature and lost it all with bad decisions. Maybe you remember the kid. If not, ask Dave, because he should. So, he's a great football coach, and he also has/had (I left Denver in 2004) a drive time sports talk show, and he's one of the best sports talk guys I've listened to, in a local market. He was the knoledge guy, and they paired him w/ Scott Hastings for 'color'. Real level headed, fair analysis. My point is Dave Logan was a football player. Actually, he was a 3 sport sport God, but keep to football, because that's where he excelled and made his FIRST career. He recognized that he couldn't retire at 32, and utilized that degree that he earned by playing football, and the knowledge he learned by playing football to become so much more. Let's be realistic. Should any job out there afford anybody the opportunity to work for 3, 5, 10 years and live off of the pension? I live in the real world. These guys need to as well. Follow the Dave Logan model. Actually there are tons of other guys that can be pointed to that are a success. The guys that fail, jsut as in society as a whole, are the minority, and typically it's personal decisions that lead to it, not institutional deficiencies.

GREAT post. And yes, Dave should've been named coach of CU too, IMHO.Also, he and Dave Winfield are the only players in history to be drafted in the NFL, NBA, and MLB. Yeah, I do remember Cutlip, what a shame the kid had a ton of talent. He also coached a good RB at Mullen Maurice Greer. And of course, he was LenDale White's hs coach as well.

 

[Cecil Lammey]

And "The Zoo" is no longer on KOA. Scott Hastings left for 950 the Fan. I stayed one year without Scott, but this year made the move over the dial.

 

[Family Matters]

I can understand the argument that says they should only get what they were promised and that just because the company is worth more they shouldn't be entitled. I understand where that line of thinking is from. What you have to consider is that the NFL is a different breed. Most of us have jobs where we aren't at risk for injuries that could keep us from working. An NFL players avg service is 4-5 years. That's not much time to make a living or to plan for one.What's also important is that many guys from the 60's, 60's and 80's helped build the NFL into what it is today and the current players are reaping the benefits. That's one reason the retired NFL players should be getting treated better.I can see both sides of this but I'm tend to lean the way of treating the old guys with more financial assistance. At least make so they can make a respectable living especially if they aren't able to work.

The IBM from the 50's helped make the company what it is today. Every companies early pioneers build the company. That's business. Yes, the average football player has a career expectancy of 4-5 years. What they also typically have is a full ride college scholarship. The average employee doesn't have that. They have a ticket to a far easier life than they typical persona laid at their feet. Then they have the marketability of being a former NFL player in their portfolio. If they make choices to not take advantage of their situation, it's not the fault of the NFL pension program. It's the fault of individual choices made. I think it's completely unfair to come back and demand more money. I don't think the intent of the 24k is to 'retire' as in never work again at 45, but to supplement their future earnings. I think it's more than fair. They're essentially sill paid for playing, but not playing anymore. Now, yes the league makes a lot of money, but like you said, the average career is 4-5 years. That's a lot of churn. There are a lot of former football guys getting pensions. In a company, you typically had to work at least 5 years to get any pension, but 20 years to get a significant pension. Companies have dumped traditional pensions, with only about 30% still having them. The new model is the 401k. Yes, the guys in the early days made less. They also had no mini-camps, no off season programs, etc. They had the opportunity to have another job during their playing days, or plan for the future. Some did, some didn't. The number in poverty is very, very small. Lastly, the union contract is merely a framework for the negotiation of individual contracts. Yes, some players make millions, but many, in fact most, are making right around and under the $1mm mark. Part of it is the groundwork of the forebearers, but most of it is the extraordinary talents of the current players, coupled with the extraordinary idiocy of the current owners. I'm just not an advocate of backward looking rewards. Yes, it's a physical job, yes there are risks of injury. The players knew this. Nobody made them play football for a living. They knew the risks, they knew the DEFINED rewards at the time. Because of the success of later business enterprises within the institution, such as fightinf off the USFL, they shouldn't be rewarded just because they played in the league at one point.

It seems we are world's apart in understanding like in the NFL versus what you know in the world you work in. You can't fairly compare the two and draw analysis in the manner you have. This is something many have done to try and understand where these guys are coming from but it doesn't work that way. No matter how hard you try to make sense of it that way it just isnt going to work.I feel as though you missed a big part of what I posted. My concern is more for the injured than the ones that came out of football healthy and able to resume another career. The NFL pension supplements their other career options, and I am not advocating someone retire and live off the NFL. You totally misunderstood my point so I'm calrifying it for you and anyone else who thought that's what I meant.The guy that gets injured and cannot work like most others are the one's that are screwed. They cannot find regular employment to carry on like the healthy can. There is little support for them. In your world you have things like SSI that can help but that's not going to get it done. You need group coverage to supplement and most have that in your world. But the NFL is self funded and they have control over who they want to pay. And there have been numerous issues surrounding their willingness to award claims. That's what has brought the negative light on them.You also point out that these guys should have their homes paid for before their career is over. This is another point where you are off target. If most NFL career last 4-5 years then the opportunity for them to be set financially is limited. In the 60-70-and 80's they weren't paid like todays atheletes are. They didn't have those opportunites you speak of. The pay scales are no where near similar. I know many think they are but it's noting like that at all. It doesn't morror the real world like th one you refer to.You made a refernece that they did nothign different in building the NFL then former IBM workers did in building IBM. Agian your point is off target. And IBM worker could work for 20-30 plus years and build a pension or 401K and time to plan for retirement. If they became disabled they were entitled to a pension anyway. It wasn't difficult to qualify for. The trues pioneers were not the front line owrkers. It was the leaders and management that made IBM what it is. The workers carried out the plan and they were rewarded in their pensions and stocl options. NFL player had no such rewards. They had their contracts and that's it. Teams paid so little back in the early era that players had to work off season jobs in order to make ends meet. They weren't getting rich.It seems as though you are reflecting on today's player and appying their rewards to yesterday's player. Just because an NFL player existed in the 60's and 70's doesn't mean he's getting rich from it. The reason I have a better understanding of what has happened in the world of NFL players is that I do financial planning, insurnace and investents. I have a close realationship with disability and it's effect on the family financial picture. I can assure you there is a serious problem that would easy to deal with because the NFL has the resources to do so. The owners need to take the lead on solving this but it's highly unlikely they will.Don't foegt what someone else mentioned earlier. The injured NFL'ers we refer to are paying out huge sums of money for medical bills. They are not covered by the NFL in many cases so these folks are stuck with paying it on their own. Many do not have medical insurance. Do you know why? Becuae the NFL doesn't recognize them as disabled. They are not responsible because they say so. Yet these players can't get covered anywhere else because their condition is pre-existing due to the NFL. They are caught in a catch 20 that they have no control over.Last point. You seem convinced that the SSI will take care of them and that's enough. I hope you are not counting on SSI. It won't take care of much of anything. It's not a retirement system. It's an outdated 40's solution that no longer meets anyone's needs. BTW-it was never intended to be a retirement system. Players have little success with it because they didn't pay in (or little if they did) if they got injured in the NFL. If their career was short and they didn't pay much in then there is little to pay out. Simple economics for all of us. SSI is not a retirement system and I hope you and others do a good job of planning so you don't find yourself counting it for support. If you do you are in the poor house with no way out. It's a lousey disability system that is very difficult to qualify for. Many NFL players that are disabled would not qualify for SSI disability.

 

[Bri]

Some of these guys just don't know how to do anything else but play ball. 30-40 years old is just too young to be done working in life. If the day they retired they moved to a moderate home in "suburbia" maybe but most live in real expensive homes with an expensive lifestyle that will eat up their savings real quick. Eventually they're gonna be sticking their hand out needing help. They've gotta work.

 

[PMENFAN]

You also point out that these guys should have their homes paid for before their career is over. This is another point where you are off target. If most NFL career last 4-5 years then the opportunity for them to be set financially is limited. In the 60-70-and 80's they weren't paid like todays atheletes are. They didn't have those opportunites you speak of. The pay scales are no where near similar. I know many think they are but it's noting like that at all. It doesn't morror the real world like th one you refer to.

Most NFL careers are short not because of injury, but because of up and coming talent. Many end in injuy, no question. But, very few injuries that end an NFL career are ending your viability to perform in the rest of the world. To me it's a risk/reward dichotomy. They know the risk, and tolerate it for the reward. But now, because of poor decisions years later, they want more than they agreed to work for. I don't think it's right. As for SSI, disability is determimned by doctors independent of the NFL. The NFL may be self insured, but they still are an employer and have to carry mandated coverages, and based on the industry, their premiums are likely higher than most. They don't determine who gets the disability, the state does, as far as SSI goes. As far as most of us having long term disability coverage. most don't. I feel sorry for the people who have gotten injured. Guys like Ditka, Dierdorf, et al. But, It comes to a question of economics. The guys with the worse injuries are probably disabled, as determined by the states. Mental illness is a hot button issue right now for most. Insurers don't want to cover it. The NFL is at least taking care of it. There's a connection to concussions, obviously, but what connection to mental illness? To me, it's not an open and shut case. The NFL is fair, in my opinion, in their treatment. Are there issues that need to be addressed? Surely. But to pretend that every ex NFL er is destitute and disabled is dishonest. Roger Staubach runs a mega commercial real estate company, Stauback and Associates. Some pjeople take advantage of their opps, some waste them. They don't live in a vacuum. It's no different than society at large.

 

[GRIDIRON ASSASSIN]

How does Gene Upshaw still have a job if things are THIS bad?

Don't the players have to vote this guy in?

I think the fact he's a former NFL player GREATLY assists him in keeping that job.

 

[Family Matters]

You also point out that these guys should have their homes paid for before their career is over. This is another point where you are off target. If most NFL career last 4-5 years then the opportunity for them to be set financially is limited. In the 60-70-and 80's they weren't paid like todays atheletes are. They didn't have those opportunites you speak of. The pay scales are no where near similar. I know many think they are but it's noting like that at all. It doesn't mirror the real world like th one you refer to.

Most NFL careers are short not because of injury, but because of up and coming talent. Many end in injuy, no question. But, very few injuries that end an NFL career are ending your viability to perform in the rest of the world. To me it's a risk/reward dichotomy. They know the risk, and tolerate it for the reward. But now, because of poor decisions years later, they want more than they agreed to work for. I don't think it's right. As for SSI, disability is determimned by doctors independent of the NFL. The NFL may be self insured, but they still are an employer and have to carry mandated coverages, and based on the industry, their premiums are likely higher than most. They don't determine who gets the disability, the state does, as far as SSI goes. As far as most of us having long term disability coverage. most don't. I feel sorry for the people who have gotten injured. Guys like Ditka, Dierdorf, et al. But, It comes to a question of economics. The guys with the worse injuries are probably disabled, as determined by the states. Mental illness is a hot button issue right now for most. Insurers don't want to cover it. The NFL is at least taking care of it. There's a connection to concussions, obviously, but what connection to mental illness? To me, it's not an open and shut case. The NFL is fair, in my opinion, in their treatment. Are there issues that need to be addressed? Surely. But to pretend that every ex NFL er is destitute and disabled is dishonest. Roger Staubach runs a mega commercial real estate company, Stauback and Associates. Some pjeople take advantage of their opps, some waste them. They don't live in a vacuum. It's no different than society at large.

I hate to say this but you are wrong about how disability is determined. It's not up to the doctors to decide if the NFL pays for disability or not. You can disagree if you want to but the reality is that the NFL makes the decision whether or not to pay a claim. State and SSI DI claims are also decided by the states and SSI, not doctors. Same for insurnace companies, they make decisions about their claims. Not doctors. I know many think this how it works but it isn't. Disability insurnace is a contract, not entitlement. Therefore the insurers decide which claims they feel legally obligated to pay. The doctors do play a role but they do not make claims decisions regarding the contracts.You are right that there not a lot of people that get injured permanently but you also agree (I think) that there are some people impacted by this. Those are one's we've talking bout mostly. No one is suggesting what you say that everyone is due. I haven't said that nor has anyone that I am aware.There are issues out there and you cannot lump them all together and make a blanket statement about their well being. I hope the NFL does more to support this group of players, however many there may be. Hopefully the light is being shed on the problem(s) and the NFL does the right thing where it's applicaple.

 

[Family Matters]

How does Gene Upshaw still have a job if things are THIS bad?Don't the players have to vote this guy in?I think the fact he's a former NFL player GREATLY assists him in keeping that job.

Great question. In the NFL, the rights are all slanted to the owners. Players do not have many rights. They are along for the ride. The only thing guarenteed them is their signing bonus, not much else. While a player can released or cut anytime, there are financial considerations to the team, not the player. Therefore when a player is cut he gets nothing even though there may be cap considerations against the team.What's interesting is that players cannot just leave the team. They are obligated to their contracts (teams) but the teams are not obligated to them. Interesting.

 

[Family Matters]

BTW-I know this is slightly off topic but it's worth mentioning. Regarding disability insurance, who you have coverage through is just as important as having coverage. Some companies make you fight to get a claim paid. A few will be easier to deal with when you need them the most.

My advice is get professional help from a trusted advisor. The company you chose is a very important decision. Please do not take it lightly.

 

[Yitbos69]

How does Gene Upshaw still have a job if things are THIS bad?Don't the players have to vote this guy in?I think the fact he's a former NFL player GREATLY assists him in keeping that job.

Great question. In the NFL, the rights are all slanted to the owners. Players do not have many rights. They are along for the ride. The only thing guarenteed them is their signing bonus, not much else. While a player can released or cut anytime, there are financial considerations to the team, not the player. Therefore when a player is cut he gets nothing even though there may be cap considerations against the team.What's interesting is that players cannot just leave the team. They are obligated to their contracts (teams) but the teams are not obligated to them. Interesting.

It has always been odd to me that only the player has to honor the contract....This is the reason I have no problem with a player holding out for more money if they out play their contract......If that same player did not play up to his contract he would be asked to sign a lesser contract or be cut by his team

 

[Fla\/\/ed]

How does Gene Upshaw still have a job if things are THIS bad?Don't the players have to vote this guy in?I think the fact he's a former NFL player GREATLY assists him in keeping that job.

Upshaw has stated that his responsibility is to the players currently in the league and not to the retired players.

 

[Bri]

How does Gene Upshaw still have a job if things are THIS bad?Don't the players have to vote this guy in?I think the fact he's a former NFL player GREATLY assists him in keeping that job.

consider the #s of average salary since he's been "in office". I'm sure that's a stat he hangs his hat on.From what I can tell(what's released to the press+ in newspapers)This is not his fault. He's the one behind all the increases for former players. He's not a quiet guy so feel free to google that for links but he proposed+won to get them more money. This article says it's not enough but he got them more. I don't know how an issue to vote upon is created in the NFLPA. I would imagine this issue here amounts to the current members of NFLPA voting to give the former players more $. If the pres of a union could just give more money ..... I don't think this is "on him". IIRC there was a "pool" discussed during last contract negotiations that was his and that former Eagle's(Vincent?) idea. NFL and NFLPA putting money into the pool for former players not doing well financially. I don't recall how that all wound up but I sure remember them talking about it.Really, he's not a quiet guy you can google and find out lots of his thoughts in interviews, articles, etc.

 

[Bri]

How does Gene Upshaw still have a job if things are THIS bad?Don't the players have to vote this guy in?I think the fact he's a former NFL player GREATLY assists him in keeping that job.

Upshaw has stated that his responsibility is to the players currently in the league and not to the retired players.

When? what was the Q asked that he gave that answer? link? that doesn't fit for me.

 

[Bri]

FWIW

http://nflretirees.blogspot.com/2006_04_01_archive.html

Here Ron Mix acknowledges the increase to vets(upshaw one I mentioned) but says it amounts to nothing.

Some good links from there too

 

[Fla\/\/ed]

How does Gene Upshaw still have a job if things are THIS bad?

Don't the players have to vote this guy in?

I think the fact he's a former NFL player GREATLY assists him in keeping that job.

Upshaw has stated that his responsibility is to the players currently in the league and not to the retired players.

When? what was the Q asked that he gave that answer? link? that doesn't fit for me.

It was on HBO Real Sports recently.http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/col/stor...3p-413112c.html

But HBO excerpted a statement Upshaw made in 2006 to the Charlotte Observer. "The bottom line is I don't work for them (former players). They don't hire me and they can't fire me," Upshaw said. "They can complain about me all day long. But the active players have the vote. That's who pays my salary." Mike Ditka, who appears in HBO's report, minces no words about the union and Upshaw's leadership skills.

 

[Obie Wan]

How does Gene Upshaw still have a job if things are THIS bad?Don't the players have to vote this guy in?I think the fact he's a former NFL player GREATLY assists him in keeping that job.

'Gene Upshaw is an absolute tool.But he understands that continually increasing signing bonuses will keep him in charge.Football players are a pretty stupid group as a whole and truly believe they are invincible so they have no focus on retirement or life after football.

 

[fatness]

My concern is more for the injured than the ones that came out of football healthy and able to resume another career. The NFL pension supplements their other career options, and I am not advocating someone retire and live off the NFL. You totally misunderstood my point so I'm calrifying it for you and anyone else who thought that's what I meant.The guy that gets injured and cannot work like most others are the one's that are screwed. They cannot find regular employment to carry on like the healthy can. There is little support for them. In your world you have things like SSI that can help but that's not going to get it done. You need group coverage to supplement and most have that in your world. But the NFL is self funded and they have control over who they want to pay.

I came here to post something similar. The NFL has 2 responsibilities to former playersA. a reasonable pension, to help an average person live when retired or semi-retiredB. assistance for those who, for medical reasons, can't earn much of a living and/or can't functionThe need for B is the crying need. When someone is suffering from brain damage and is homeless and mentally ill, citing the % of their original salary which they continue to receive as a pension is using math where it does not apply. A mom-and-pop hardware store does not have the resources to take care of a former employee who is disabled. The NFL does have the resources, and should be using them. That's the math. I doubt many people would argue in favor of jacking up NFL player pensions to the level that corporate execs receive. I would not. But damn, when people are suffering, when their lives are turned to crap, when it's a result of their job, when there's money there to help them out ---- it's time to start doing it.

 

[Bri]

How does Gene Upshaw still have a job if things are THIS bad?

Don't the players have to vote this guy in?

I think the fact he's a former NFL player GREATLY assists him in keeping that job.

Upshaw has stated that his responsibility is to the players currently in the league and not to the retired players.

When? what was the Q asked that he gave that answer? link? that doesn't fit for me.

It was on HBO Real Sports recently.http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/col/stor...3p-413112c.html

But HBO excerpted a statement Upshaw made in 2006 to the Charlotte Observer. "The bottom line is I don't work for them (former players). They don't hire me and they can't fire me," Upshaw said. "They can complain about me all day long. But the active players have the vote. That's who pays my salary." Mike Ditka, who appears in HBO's report, minces no words about the union and Upshaw's leadership skills.

what was the Q though? The way ditka was involved and looking at HBO's episode info it seems like it was at the end of a debate "the bottomline...."

 

[Bri]

this is a better article IMO

http://www.leavenworthtimes.com/articles/2...rts/sports7.txt

Better deal urged for NFL retirees

By EDDIE PELLS, AP National Writer

Published: Thursday, February 1, 2007 11:31 PM CST

E-mail this story | Print this page

MIAMI — They limp through life, often too proud to ask for handouts but desperately in need of help. They are the aging NFL retirees and, as a rule, the older they are, the less they receive from the league’s pension and disability funds.

“An embarrassment,” is what famed former player and coach Mike Ditka called it.

“Twenty percent of nothing is nothing,” former Bills offensive lineman Joe DeLamielleure said.

Ditka, DeLamielleure and another Hall of Famer, Lem Barney, joined one-time Packers star Jerry Kramer on Thursday to promote Kramer’s endeavor to auction championship rings and other valuable memorabilia to raise money for their fellow retirees.

Ditka described the situation as “shameful,” saying he received a $100,000 donation from an owner of a sport other than football. When he sent letters to the 32 NFL owners asking for the same donation some time ago, he said he received one check for $5,000 and another for $10,000. He said he sent those checks back.

“It’s a problem that should have been remedied and it’s going to get remedied,” Ditka said. “If they don’t, a lot of people are going to be embarrassed.”

Ditka brought up a number of players — John Mackey, the late Ernie Stautner, Doug Atkins and others less famous — who are aging and hurting. Perhaps the worst case was the late Mike Webster, the Hall of Fame Steelers center who suffered from mental illness that was widely attributed to head injuries. He died homeless in 2002.

“I can’t tell you today if Mike Webster would’ve been alive today,” Ditka said. “I don’t know. But I do know he wouldn’t have been a damn street person. I know his family wouldn’t have had to sue to get his benefits. It’s not right. It’s just not.”

While Ditka wouldn’t say precisely who’s to blame, DeLamielleure wasn’t shy about it. He blamed former commissioner Paul Tagliabue and players’ union head Gene Upshaw for the growing discrepancy in the amount of money recent retirees and old-timers get in pension and health care.

“They have been in power for 20 years and have done nothing about it,” said DeLamielleure, the former Bills lineman who is auctioning off a gold bracelet he received from O.J. Simpson.

But Upshaw, speaking later at a separate news conference, said: “For anyone to say that the NFLPA does not care about retired players is not responsible. They don’t know the record, they don’t know the body of work.”

The league says $126 million a year goes into pension and post-career disability benefits for retired players and their families. The accounts pay out $60 million a year to those players, $20 million of it for disability payments.

In the most recent collective bargaining agreement, payments from the pension fund were raised by 25 percent for players who retired before 1982 and 10 percent for those who retired after 1982. But retired football players often have difficulty getting health insurance because of injuries suffered on the field, and the old-timers have long endured a health-care gap.

More work will be done, Upshaw promised, though he conceded many retirees will probably never be completely happy.

“It’s impossible, economics-wise,” he said.

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello declined comment, saying commissioner Roger Goodell would address the subject Friday at his news conference.

Upshaw pointed out, however, that it’s a reality of corporate America that those who work in later eras and make more money do better on their post-retirement plans than those who came before them.

Some see the NFL as a special exception. Those who played in the ’50s, ’60s and ’70s laid the groundwork for the popularity of the league. They did it without the same level of medical care. Yet today they hurt every bit as much — often more — as the players who retired much later.

Upshaw acknowledged Ditka’s complaint, and said that too much red tape exists. Union president Troy Vincent said he wished retired players would talk about other issues, too.

“Every conversation with retired players is strictly about economics,” he said. “You get tired of talking about it. Let’s develop a relationship first. You’re a Hall of Famer. What can I do to improve my game? It’s not just all about economics.”

To many, it is.

An idea hit Kramer when he saw the Super Bowl ring he lost in an airplane 25 years ago being auctioned online. He tracked down the seller, yelled at him a while, and when things calmed down, they agreed to this:

There would be an auction, but the proceeds would go to retirees in need.

On the Web: http://www.jerrykramer.com

 

[Bri]

Ditka sending checks back....that's just stupid.

The previous increase I was alluding to(that upshaw and vincent got them) is mentioned.

126mil a year to retired players fund(pension and disability) is a large amount. With 60 million going out it's clear that the next generation will be taking care of twice as well BUT that's a bunch of $ going out too.

 

[Bri]

it's a rrrrrrrrreal good bet but there's no guarantee the league is around in 25 years either.

 

[Family Matters]

My concern is more for the injured than the ones that came out of football healthy and able to resume another career. The NFL pension supplements their other career options, and I am not advocating someone retire and live off the NFL. You totally misunderstood my point so I'm calrifying it for you and anyone else who thought that's what I meant.The guy that gets injured and cannot work like most others are the one's that are screwed. They cannot find regular employment to carry on like the healthy can. There is little support for them. In your world you have things like SSI that can help but that's not going to get it done. You need group coverage to supplement and most have that in your world. But the NFL is self funded and they have control over who they want to pay.

I came here to post something similar. The NFL has 2 responsibilities to former playersA. a reasonable pension, to help an average person live when retired or semi-retiredB. assistance for those who, for medical reasons, can't earn much of a living and/or can't functionThe need for B is the crying need. When someone is suffering from brain damage and is homeless and mentally ill, citing the % of their original salary which they continue to receive as a pension is using math where it does not apply. A mom-and-pop hardware store does not have the resources to take care of a former employee who is disabled. The NFL does have the resources, and should be using them. That's the math. I doubt many people would argue in favor of jacking up NFL player pensions to the level that corporate execs receive. I would not. But damn, when people are suffering, when their lives are turned to crap, when it's a result of their job, when there's money there to help them out ---- it's time to start doing it.

Well said.

 

[Family Matters]

it's a rrrrrrrrreal good bet but there's no guarantee the league is around in 25 years either.

Just curious why you say this? Do you think it's due to these concerns? What do you think they should do about it? You may be right but I gotta think this league will survive if it does the right things right.

 

[Bri]

it's a rrrrrrrrreal good bet but there's no guarantee the league is around in 25 years either.

Just curious why you say this? Do you think it's due to these concerns? What do you think they should do about it? You may be right but I gotta think this league will survive if it does the right things right.

Could be anything really, I'll guess though-Anytime a strike comes up I suppose there's a chance a new league is started. While it appears NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL are secure. Hockey players sat out a year recently and ya gotta figure the right group of millionaires offerring the right circumstances could have(in theory) got alot of them to form a new league. NFL went with strike players years ago(as you know) and maybe if that happenned again the players would find a new league. XFL was a joke. If the USFL popped up at the same time as that strike, things could be different.NFL wants this to be a worldwide game. Years from now maybe we tolerate the BS from players but other countries hate Moss+Owens+Henry for it. As far as business and customers having a say in matters by purchasing products. USA has a huge say but when it's a worldwide game(if) maybe millions from Europe will minimize our input. NFLE has cruddy teams as it's a halfway minor league but I wouldn't doubt Germany(90% or all teams from there) would give a ton of $ for them to become real NFL teams so they could bid on FA and draft players. It would seem already there are some in the NFL offices that would love to give Germany the next expansion team. As has been said here, the flight to some foreign countries is comparable in time to that of NY to CA.Ya just never know. Like I said it's a rrrrrreal good bet it's strong in 25 years but a pension has to include a plan that it might not be. It's just the safe or right thing to do.

 

[Family Matters]

it's a rrrrrrrrreal good bet but there's no guarantee the league is around in 25 years either.

Just curious why you say this? Do you think it's due to these concerns? What do you think they should do about it? You may be right but I gotta think this league will survive if it does the right things right.

Could be anything really, I'll guess though-Anytime a strike comes up I suppose there's a chance a new league is started. While it appears NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL are secure. Hockey players sat out a year recently and ya gotta figure the right group of millionaires offerring the right circumstances could have(in theory) got alot of them to form a new league. NFL went with strike players years ago(as you know) and maybe if that happenned again the players would find a new league. XFL was a joke. If the USFL popped up at the same time as that strike, things could be different.

NFL wants this to be a worldwide game. Years from now maybe we tolerate the BS from players but other countries hate Moss+Owens+Henry for it. As far as business and customers having a say in matters by purchasing products. USA has a huge say but when it's a worldwide game(if) maybe millions from Europe will minimize our input.

NFLE has cruddy teams as it's a halfway minor league but I wouldn't doubt Germany(90% or all teams from there) would give a ton of $ for them to become real NFL teams so they could bid on FA and draft players. It would seem already there are some in the NFL offices that would love to give Germany the next expansion team. As has been said here, the flight to some foreign countries is comparable in time to that of NY to CA.

Ya just never know. Like I said it's a rrrrrreal good bet it's strong in 25 years but a pension has to include a plan that it might not be. It's just the safe or right thing to do.

Interesting thoughts for sure. What I'm wondering is what happens if/when the economy shifts to a more global balance what effect it might have on the NFL. Outside of the USA there isn't much support for American football. Providing we remain storng economically then I think the NFL can remain strong. If that changes then who knows where it ends up.