NFL seat license - PSL/SBL (2 Viewers)

[Sunday@1]

I was wondering if anyone out there has purchased or would purchase a SBL/PSL ( Personal Seat license). These have been around for the last 7+ years and it allows Pro Teams (mostly NFL at this point) to charge season ticket holders a fee for the “right” to buy seats. This is on top of rising ticket prices. This can range from $1000 per seat to the ridiculous $150, 000 per that the Cowboys are talking about. This is just another example of teams wanting to go corporate and squeeze out the fan. They try to justify it by saying they need to do this to stay competitive but they do it because they can. This reminds me how Video rental stores used to charge a “membership” fee to join their store. That disappeared when Blockbuster came on the scene. Of course this is a much larger scale – closer to a time share that you use for one week per year or Golf Country club that allows you to play on better courses.

This seems like a “tough sale” to the Mrs. explaining you will have to pay a team $3000 each for the right to pay $90.00 per ticket. That doesn’t fly for most guys. If you have NFL season tix, would you pony up for a license or risk losing your seats? If so, what did you pay and was it a good purchase? What would be your max? Assuming mostly stadiums last roughly 30 years that would mean you would pay $100.00 per year for each seat if you had 2 seats at $3000 each but that $6000 check of which you get nothing in return is tough to write.

Wait until the Jets/ Giants roll out their plan. I think most NY Fans will be priced out. This will have the ticket brokers swarming since it is a impossible ticket for most to ever get. Then watch the Yankees get creative with their new home. Sports has gotten to the point where the average fan won’t be able to go to games or will only go on corporate seats.

 

[GregR_2]

I was wondering if anyone out there has purchased or would purchase a SBL/PSL ( Personal Seat license). These have been around for the last 7+ years and it allows Pro Teams (mostly NFL at this point) to charge season ticket holders a fee for the “right” to buy seats. This is on top of rising ticket prices. This can range from $1000 per seat to the ridiculous $150, 000 per that the Cowboys are talking about. This is just another example of teams wanting to go corporate and squeeze out the fan. They try to justify it by saying they need to do this to stay competitive but they do it because they can. This reminds me how Video rental stores used to charge a “membership” fee to join their store. That disappeared when Blockbuster came on the scene. Of course this is a much larger scale – closer to a time share that you use for one week per year or Golf Country club that allows you to play on better courses.This seems like a “tough sale” to the Mrs. explaining you will have to pay a team $3000 each for the right to pay $90.00 per ticket. That doesn’t fly for most guys. If you have NFL season tix, would you pony up for a license or risk losing your seats? If so, what did you pay and was it a good purchase? What would be your max? Assuming mostly stadiums last roughly 30 years that would mean you would pay $100.00 per year for each seat if you had 2 seats at $3000 each but that $6000 check of which you get nothing in return is tough to write.Wait until the Jets/ Giants roll out their plan. I think most NY Fans will be priced out. This will have the ticket brokers swarming since it is a impossible ticket for most to ever get. Then watch the Yankees get creative with their new home. Sports has gotten to the point where the average fan won’t be able to go to games or will only go on corporate seats.

I have the PSL for my seats for the Texans. I don't think there are many seats outside of the end zones or upper level that are not PSL, though I could be wrong on that.Eh, the way I look at it, for the number of years I'm likely to have Texans tickets, it isn't that much per year. And I own it and can resell it whenever I want. In the long run I'll probably make money off of it, though perhaps not as much as if I'd just invested it.

 

[Chase Stuart]

There are a finite number of seats at a game. Teams can either discriminate on price or something else (first come first serve, e.g.). I'd prefer they discriminate on price for most of their seats. I'm not sure why a guy who has had four seats for 20 years but values them less than some new fan deserves them. And the team benefits from this quite a bit, of course.

 

[Bri]

Pats are suing a fan over his failure to pay his PSL

 

[brednbuddah]

Wait until the Jets/ Giants roll out their plan. I think most NY Fans will be priced out. This will have the ticket brokers swarming since it is a impossible ticket for most to ever get. Then watch the Yankees get creative with their new home. Sports has gotten to the point where the average fan won’t be able to go to games or will only go on corporate seats.

I just got rid of the rights to my Jets season tickets after 16 seasons for this very reason. There is no way I'm going to put up 15,000 for 3 seats (rumor here is Jets PSLs will be 5,000, maybe even 10,000) in the upper deck of the new stadium just for the "privilege" to purchase tickets every season.

 

[Wolfpacker]

I've had Carolina Panthers P.S.L.s since the beginning of the franchise. A friend of mine and I bought four together partly as an investment because we always heard stories like "you can't get a ticket to the Packers game unless someone dies" and "there's a 20-year waiting list for Giants tickets". That hasn't worked out so well yet in Carolina as we haven't built up the die-hard fan base yet, but we're getting there.

Just an F.Y.I. - buying four together gives us a lot of options. For example, we will trade tickets to each other so he can take his wife and 2 kids to a game and I can take 3 of my drinking buddies to another game, etc, etc.

There's a lot of pros and cons to buying a P.S.L. I don't have too many regrets for buying mine because I live in Charlotte and go to most of the games, but I wouldn't want to live too far away and have to go to every game. When the Panthers are doing well, I can easily sell my tickets to any game I don't want to attend (you can only go watch the Falcons, Saints, and Bucs so many times). It's great to have playoff tickets. You can always make money off those...or get the pleasure of watching the Panthers beat the Cowboys again.

However, when the Panthers are sucking, I either have to go to all the games or sell the tickets at a reduced price. And, when I go to the game, the price of the ticket is just a fraction of the cost. You'd be surprised at how much money is missing when you wake up Monday morning. The secret is to find someone at work who has a couple of kids and will buy the tickets that you don't want at face value even during the bad times.

I would buy my P.S.L.s again because I have faith that (owner) Jerry Richardson wants to win, is willing to spend the money, and the team will, for the most part, be competetive. Then there's other P.S.L. ownership perks like having my name engraved on one of the Panther statues outside the stadium, which is nice.

That's just some quick thoughts off the top of my head. Others can elaborate.

 

[renesauz]

They should be illegal...period, and I'm very surprised that they haven't been better challenged in the courts, esp. considering that the NFL is a DeFacto trust, and as such may have to answer directly to congress if it's not careful. One of the quickest ways to lose your anti-trust protection is to start pricing the average consumer out of the ability to purchase your product.

If the seats sell out ridiculously fast, simply raise the price of the tickets a little. PSL's SHOULD BE ILLEGAL (and might be).

 

[Chase Stuart]

They should be illegal...period, and I'm very surprised that they haven't been better challenged in the courts, esp. considering that the NFL is a DeFacto trust, and as such may have to answer directly to congress if it's not careful. One of the quickest ways to lose your anti-trust protection is to start pricing the average consumer out of the ability to purchase your product.If the seats sell out ridiculously fast, simply raise the price of the tickets a little. PSL's SHOULD BE ILLEGAL (and might be).

Challenged in court under what claim? Charging a lot of money isn't illegal.

 

[Kiddnets]

My dad has had Jet tix since the day Joe Namath signed. We would pay a reasonable PSL as long as it was able to be paid over a period of time. I think it is awful and should be illegal but I love to go to the games so I'll pay. In the end its all entertainment costs. Anyone that paid a PSL have a chance to spread it out over a few years?

Question - if I own the seat are the scalping laws no longer applicable? If I am paying $5K to own a seat I should be able to sell a ticket for as much as I want if I need to...

 

[Bri]

They should be illegal...period, and I'm very surprised that they haven't been better challenged in the courts, esp. considering that the NFL is a DeFacto trust, and as such may have to answer directly to congress if it's not careful. One of the quickest ways to lose your anti-trust protection is to start pricing the average consumer out of the ability to purchase your product.

If the seats sell out ridiculously fast, simply raise the price of the tickets a little. PSL's SHOULD BE ILLEGAL (and might be).

Challenged in court under what claim? Charging a lot of money isn't illegal.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/footbal...&position=1

 

[pizzatyme]

As a Colts season ticket holder, I'm glad we didn't get stuck with PSLs for the new Lucas Oil Stadium.

What we did get stuck with is a price increase from $109.00 to $180.00 per seat and the seats are worse than last year. They expanded the "Club" seating section to get more money.

We've had our tickets since 1984 when the Colts first arrived. As a thank you, we got pushed further towards the endzone.

I nearly cancelled my seats this year.

 

[Chase Stuart]

They should be illegal...period, and I'm very surprised that they haven't been better challenged in the courts, esp. considering that the NFL is a DeFacto trust, and as such may have to answer directly to congress if it's not careful. One of the quickest ways to lose your anti-trust protection is to start pricing the average consumer out of the ability to purchase your product.

If the seats sell out ridiculously fast, simply raise the price of the tickets a little. PSL's SHOULD BE ILLEGAL (and might be).

Challenged in court under what claim? Charging a lot of money isn't illegal.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/footbal...&position=1

That's an interesting case, but it has nothing to do with this issue, and it has nothing to do with PSLs. It has to do with standard damages that you learn about in your first year law of contracts.

 

[renesauz]

They should be illegal...period, and I'm very surprised that they haven't been better challenged in the courts, esp. considering that the NFL is a DeFacto trust, and as such may have to answer directly to congress if it's not careful. One of the quickest ways to lose your anti-trust protection is to start pricing the average consumer out of the ability to purchase your product.

If the seats sell out ridiculously fast, simply raise the price of the tickets a little. PSL's SHOULD BE ILLEGAL (and might be).

Challenged in court under what claim? Charging a lot of money isn't illegal.

The problem with PSL's is that they aren't actually selling anything! I mean...selling the right to buy a ticket? Why not just raise the price of the ticket?I'm not a lawyer, but it seems it could be challenged under anti-trust laws.

As an average Joe, I understand that seat space/tickets are limited, and in a free market system are bound to be expensive. I (and most fans I suspect) can accept , understand, and appreciate that. But when I have to spend $5000 just to obtain the right to buy a ticket? I can only afford a game or two a year anyway...just charge me double. I can accept paying $200 versus $100....and could still attend one or two games a year.

I have to question PSL's from a business aspect too. I mean....what's the real median income of the fan bases? I gaurentee it's a lot lower then the guys shelling out thousands for PSL's.

ETA: And charging more money then necessary is the very thing that usually brings the Feds down on previously safe monopolies. It is the very reason anti-trust laws were written to begin with!

 

[Chase Stuart]

They should be illegal...period, and I'm very surprised that they haven't been better challenged in the courts, esp. considering that the NFL is a DeFacto trust, and as such may have to answer directly to congress if it's not careful. One of the quickest ways to lose your anti-trust protection is to start pricing the average consumer out of the ability to purchase your product.

If the seats sell out ridiculously fast, simply raise the price of the tickets a little. PSL's SHOULD BE ILLEGAL (and might be).

Challenged in court under what claim? Charging a lot of money isn't illegal.

The problem with PSL's is that they aren't actually selling anything! I mean...selling the right to buy a ticket? Why not just raise the price of the ticket?I'm not a lawyer, but it seems it could be challenged under anti-trust laws.

As an average Joe, I understand that seat space/tickets are limited, and in a free market system are bound to be expensive. I (and most fans I suspect) can accept , understand, and appreciate that. But when I have to spend $5000 just to obtain the right to buy a ticket? I can only afford a game or two a year anyway...just charge me double. I can accept paying $200 versus $100....and could still attend one or two games a year.

I have to question PSL's from a business aspect too. I mean....what's the real median income of the fan bases? I gaurentee it's a lot lower then the guys shelling out thousands for PSL's.

ETA: And charging more money then necessary is the very thing that usually brings the Feds down on previously safe monopolies. It is the very reason anti-trust laws were written to begin with!

This isn't going to implicate anti trust laws. They're not going to break up the NFL because of this. NFL teams are able to sell whatever they want. Sure, you might prefer that they raise the price of tickets, but NFL teams would prefer to sell PSLs. It's in their judgment a better business decision. If you don't want one, you don't have to buy one. Tickets for NFL games are hardly necessities.The NFL might have some anti-trust issues with their rookie draft, if they ever instituted a rookie pay structure, or their television contracts (and the NFL Network bomb). But PSLs are something done on a team wide basis, and there's no anti trust implication here.

And the PSLs are something. They're worth something. If lots of people want to buy them, I don't see why owners wouldn't want to sell them. I'm sure if the PSLs are a financial bust, the owners will still sell out their games, and make lots of money instead of boatloads of money.

 

[Pictus Cat]

If I won a big lotto,

I'ld buy a team in that other football league,

and market affordable and more confortable seats with fans like you.

If all you see in the stands at football games are the priveleged and the people they give tickets to...

and there is another option.

 

[renesauz]

They should be illegal...period, and I'm very surprised that they haven't been better challenged in the courts, esp. considering that the NFL is a DeFacto trust, and as such may have to answer directly to congress if it's not careful. One of the quickest ways to lose your anti-trust protection is to start pricing the average consumer out of the ability to purchase your product.

If the seats sell out ridiculously fast, simply raise the price of the tickets a little. PSL's SHOULD BE ILLEGAL (and might be).

Challenged in court under what claim? Charging a lot of money isn't illegal.

The problem with PSL's is that they aren't actually selling anything! I mean...selling the right to buy a ticket? Why not just raise the price of the ticket?I'm not a lawyer, but it seems it could be challenged under anti-trust laws.

As an average Joe, I understand that seat space/tickets are limited, and in a free market system are bound to be expensive. I (and most fans I suspect) can accept , understand, and appreciate that. But when I have to spend $5000 just to obtain the right to buy a ticket? I can only afford a game or two a year anyway...just charge me double. I can accept paying $200 versus $100....and could still attend one or two games a year.

I have to question PSL's from a business aspect too. I mean....what's the real median income of the fan bases? I gaurentee it's a lot lower then the guys shelling out thousands for PSL's.

ETA: And charging more money then necessary is the very thing that usually brings the Feds down on previously safe monopolies. It is the very reason anti-trust laws were written to begin with!

This isn't going to implicate anti trust laws. They're not going to break up the NFL because of this. NFL teams are able to sell whatever they want. Sure, you might prefer that they raise the price of tickets, but NFL teams would prefer to sell PSLs. It's in their judgment a better business decision. If you don't want one, you don't have to buy one. Tickets for NFL games are hardly necessities.The NFL might have some anti-trust issues with their rookie draft, if they ever instituted a rookie pay structure, or their television contracts (and the NFL Network bomb). But PSLs are something done on a team wide basis, and there's no anti trust implication here.

And the PSLs are something. They're worth something. If lots of people want to buy them, I don't see why owners wouldn't want to sell them. I'm sure if the PSLs are a financial bust, the owners will still sell out their games, and make lots of money instead of boatloads of money.

We can agree to disagree on this, and it certainly isn't as clear cut as either of us would like it to be. The NFL has virtually no competition, and there is virtually no chance that it ever will without significant government intervention. As such, it really does have to be just a little bit more careful about it's business practices then most business enterprises, and PSL's, while not technicly illegal, certainly push the line of what is reasonable in the view of MANY Americans. These types of practices draw the negative attention necessary to begin anti-trust suits. Don't misunderstand me..I love the NFL, and I don't want to see the NFL attacked by congress, but I really think that the NFL has gone too far, and is starting to take advantage of its monopoly.

Other examples of this:

EA SPorts has purchased exclusive rights to the NFL logos, team names and player names for a video game. As a result, the quality of their game has DECLINED. Franchise mode on nextgeneration consoles doesn't even work...and they don't care, and the NFL doesn't care.

The NFL network has been brutal in it's pricing structure and attacks on the nations cable TV services. Ironicly, those cable services have faced their own anti-trust struggles in the past, and those struggles are a big part of the reason they refuse to bend to the NFL network's demands. Further complicating matters is the fact that the Network has blatantly and obviously taken advantage of the NFL's popularity (and MONOPOLY) to try (unsuccessfully) to force the hands of the cable companies... and the consumer has sufferred for it.

Make no mistake, the NFL has a monopoly, and they are taking advantage of it....just like power companies, cable companies, phone companies, etc. did (opr tried to do) years ago before the feds came down on them.

It's bigger then the PSL's Chase, but unfortunately it won't likely end until congress really does step in. In that scenario, we all will lose.

 

[radballs]

Rene,

I still don't understand what the difference is between paying a one time PSL fee of $10K(viewing a 10 year contract) plus $200/game or just paying $300/game without a PSL. In the end, it's the same amount so why does it matter whether there's a PSL structure or not? Either you agree to pay it or you don't. Total free market decision. IMO, this is a huge reason why I don't attend too many live games because the trade off isn't worth that much cost to me. But for others it is, and if teams can charge those amounts and still sell out, then go for it.

Business is business and free market economics should be left alone. That said, I still don't like the PSL structure but I'm not forced to buy them if I don't want. You can still just buy tickets via EBay or whatever and depending on those market conditions they're not much more than face value (then again, I'm used to not-sold-out Raider games).

 

[Godsbrother]

I purchased PSL for my seats at Heinz Field. I didn't like it but there really isn't much of a choice. I think mine were $1,000 or $1,500 each but that was 7 years ago. You can always recoup your money if you ever decide to sell your seats.

 

[ravnzfan]

Ladies...

the PSL brings the team cash flow---while you might want to pay a higher price per seat, the NFL certainly understands supply and demand and charging a premium for the 'right' to buy a ticket is in essance preselling several games worth of tickets in advance, in addition to the tickets to the games themselves.

If we use $2500 as a decent avg for the PSL in a stadium X 60K seats, net revenue from the PSL sale is $150M---this gives the club an extrodinary pile of cash to operate, before they even sell 1 seat

I paid $1500 X 2 for the right to buy a Club Level ticket (@$175 per) for a couple years after the Ravens won the SB---at that point, the PSL's sold out, and I was able to sell them for a small profit when I was able to get a source for seats to games I wanted to go to---the deal breaker for me was paying $700 for the 2 preseason games that were scheduled either Thurs night or on an occasion or 2 Friday afternoon...these were seriously conflicting times for me to take off and in the end had me sell my PSL's

While I'll pay the going rate to see a game on a Sunday afternoon in the fall, sweating my ballz off on a Friday afternoon in August watching a game that doesn't count for $350 just chapped my a$-$

 

[Jason Wood]

Rene,I still don't understand what the difference is between paying a one time PSL fee of $10K(viewing a 10 year contract) plus $200/game or just paying $300/game without a PSL. In the end, it's the same amount so why does it matter whether there's a PSL structure or not? Either you agree to pay it or you don't. Total free market decision. IMO, this is a huge reason why I don't attend too many live games because the trade off isn't worth that much cost to me. But for others it is, and if teams can charge those amounts and still sell out, then go for it. Business is business and free market economics should be left alone. That said, I still don't like the PSL structure but I'm not forced to buy them if I don't want. You can still just buy tickets via EBay or whatever and depending on those market conditions they're not much more than face value (then again, I'm used to not-sold-out Raider games).

Cash flow. In your own example, the team is bringing in $11,600 in period N and then $1,600 each in periods N+1 through N+9. The net present value of that is MUCH higher than if they were to collect $2,400 per period.

 

[Lucky Bucky]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe another factor in the growth of PSLs is the NFL's revenue sharing agreement. If I remember correctly, ticket sale revenue is shared with the visiting team at some percentage I can't recall (30%-40%?) but seat license revenue is kept by the team. This gives teams incentives to charge high amounts for PSLs and sell the individual game tickets for less.

 

[Chase Stuart]

They should be illegal...period, and I'm very surprised that they haven't been better challenged in the courts, esp. considering that the NFL is a DeFacto trust, and as such may have to answer directly to congress if it's not careful. One of the quickest ways to lose your anti-trust protection is to start pricing the average consumer out of the ability to purchase your product.

If the seats sell out ridiculously fast, simply raise the price of the tickets a little. PSL's SHOULD BE ILLEGAL (and might be).

Challenged in court under what claim? Charging a lot of money isn't illegal.

The problem with PSL's is that they aren't actually selling anything! I mean...selling the right to buy a ticket? Why not just raise the price of the ticket?I'm not a lawyer, but it seems it could be challenged under anti-trust laws.

As an average Joe, I understand that seat space/tickets are limited, and in a free market system are bound to be expensive. I (and most fans I suspect) can accept , understand, and appreciate that. But when I have to spend $5000 just to obtain the right to buy a ticket? I can only afford a game or two a year anyway...just charge me double. I can accept paying $200 versus $100....and could still attend one or two games a year.

I have to question PSL's from a business aspect too. I mean....what's the real median income of the fan bases? I gaurentee it's a lot lower then the guys shelling out thousands for PSL's.

ETA: And charging more money then necessary is the very thing that usually brings the Feds down on previously safe monopolies. It is the very reason anti-trust laws were written to begin with!

This isn't going to implicate anti trust laws. They're not going to break up the NFL because of this. NFL teams are able to sell whatever they want. Sure, you might prefer that they raise the price of tickets, but NFL teams would prefer to sell PSLs. It's in their judgment a better business decision. If you don't want one, you don't have to buy one. Tickets for NFL games are hardly necessities.The NFL might have some anti-trust issues with their rookie draft, if they ever instituted a rookie pay structure, or their television contracts (and the NFL Network bomb). But PSLs are something done on a team wide basis, and there's no anti trust implication here.

And the PSLs are something. They're worth something. If lots of people want to buy them, I don't see why owners wouldn't want to sell them. I'm sure if the PSLs are a financial bust, the owners will still sell out their games, and make lots of money instead of boatloads of money.

We can agree to disagree on this, and it certainly isn't as clear cut as either of us would like it to be. The NFL has virtually no competition, and there is virtually no chance that it ever will without significant government intervention. As such, it really does have to be just a little bit more careful about it's business practices then most business enterprises, and PSL's, while not technicly illegal, certainly push the line of what is reasonable in the view of MANY Americans. These types of practices draw the negative attention necessary to begin anti-trust suits. Don't misunderstand me..I love the NFL, and I don't want to see the NFL attacked by congress, but I really think that the NFL has gone too far, and is starting to take advantage of its monopoly.

Other examples of this:

EA SPorts has purchased exclusive rights to the NFL logos, team names and player names for a video game. As a result, the quality of their game has DECLINED. Franchise mode on nextgeneration consoles doesn't even work...and they don't care, and the NFL doesn't care.

The NFL network has been brutal in it's pricing structure and attacks on the nations cable TV services. Ironicly, those cable services have faced their own anti-trust struggles in the past, and those struggles are a big part of the reason they refuse to bend to the NFL network's demands. Further complicating matters is the fact that the Network has blatantly and obviously taken advantage of the NFL's popularity (and MONOPOLY) to try (unsuccessfully) to force the hands of the cable companies... and the consumer has sufferred for it.

Make no mistake, the NFL has a monopoly, and they are taking advantage of it....just like power companies, cable companies, phone companies, etc. did (opr tried to do) years ago before the feds came down on them.

It's bigger then the PSL's Chase, but unfortunately it won't likely end until congress really does step in. In that scenario, we all will lose.

Yes, the NFL is a monopoly. But the NFL isn't charging for PSLs. That seems to be the disconnect here.There is very little difference between PSLs and charging just higher ticket prices. When you have a waiting list that's 20 years long for your product, PSLs are a reasonable alternative.

 

[Kiddnets]

anyone know if scalping laws apply if I own the seat via PSL? I would assume if its my property I can charge whatever I want instead of the cap that NY/NJ institutes on tickets.

 

[renesauz]

Rene,

I still don't understand what the difference is between paying a one time PSL fee of $10K(viewing a 10 year contract) plus $200/game or just paying $300/game without a PSL. In the end, it's the same amount so why does it matter whether there's a PSL structure or not? Either you agree to pay it or you don't. Total free market decision. IMO, this is a huge reason why I don't attend too many live games because the trade off isn't worth that much cost to me. But for others it is, and if teams can charge those amounts and still sell out, then go for it.

Business is business and free market economics should be left alone. That said, I still don't like the PSL structure but I'm not forced to buy them if I don't want. You can still just buy tickets via EBay or whatever and depending on those market conditions they're not much more than face value (then again, I'm used to not-sold-out Raider games).

Free market economics break down in the presence of a monopoly. Monopolies are, in fact, the single greatest danger to free market economics, and if left unchecked, can endanger the democracies that allow free market economies to generally thrive. I am not trying to suggest that the NFL is a danger to our way of life, but the economic principle is the same. It is NOT a free market if there is no competition, and can not be any viable competition.Please don't misunderstand. I am a HUGE NFL fan, and most people here are. I'm simply pointing out that the NFL is engaging in practices that will eventually bring them trouble.

 

[Ray Pollett]

Personally - This why i bought a HDTV, NFL Sunday ticket and a Lazyboy. Also get: No line at bathroom, Cheaper Snacks and Drinks; plus when it's a bad home game I watch a better game.

 

[renesauz]

Personally - This why i bought a HDTV, NFL Sunday ticket and a Lazyboy. Also get: No line at bathroom, Cheaper Snacks and Drinks; plus when it's a bad home game I watch a better game.

 

[Jason Wood]

anyone know if scalping laws apply if I own the seat via PSL? I would assume if its my property I can charge whatever I want instead of the cap that NY/NJ institutes on tickets.

Scalping laws, of course, still apply. PSLs don't give you ownership of the seat, they give you a legal right to purchase tickets for the seat at an agreed upon price.

 

[Lehigh98]

I just thought it was a good way for teams to bridge the gap on costs of building a new stadium.

Rather than trying to raise taxes for all to pay for it, it targets the people who will actually use the stadium.

You could always say the owners should foot the bill but if it avoids that tax issue I guess I'm for it.

BTW, I bought PSL's for the Eagles when Lincoln Financial Field opened.

I think they were like $1000 - $1500 per.

 

[sho nuff]

I have Titans PSL/season tickets.

Though...trying to sell them now...with 2 kids just don't have time to go as much anymore and I can still get tickets with friends to catch a game or two.

Plus...we have upper level PSLs and want to move into the lower level at some point and get 4 tickets so we can all go together when both kids are older.

 

[Jason Wood]

I just thought it was a good way for teams to bridge the gap on costs of building a new stadium.Rather than trying to raise taxes for all to pay for it, it targets the people who will actually use the stadium.You could always say the owners should foot the bill but if it avoids that tax issue I guess I'm for it.BTW, I bought PSL's for the Eagles when Lincoln Financial Field opened.I think they were like $1000 - $1500 per.

Yep...only Philly calls them Stadium Builder Licenses.The primary reason for PSLs is, without question, immediacy of cash flow to help defray construction and development costs on a new stadium. But that said, there are other reasons to justify the move. Not the least of which is it fosters LONG TERM fandom. If you dropped thousands of dollars on a PSL, you are far less likely to simply opt out of renewing your season tickets after a bad season or two. While the very concept of giving up season tickets after one or two bad years may seem like a foreign concept to most of us, it's very much a reality for a chunk of fans who aren't as, shall we say, fanatical.

 

[BassNBrew]

For all of you investing in PSLs...make sure to ditch them before the stadium is obsolete and they become worthless. I know a lot of Charlotte Hornet fans kicking themselves for not selling at a profit when they had a chance and ending up with nada.

 

[Sunday@1]

I can tell you that in Philly they used the closing of the Vet and the move to the Linc as the opportunity to use PSL/SBL. They stretched it over 3 payments and were $1000-$5000 per. The existing fans that had tickets in the Vet could move to a non PSL seat but it would be top level and half way back.

This allowed the brokers to swoop in a buy all the PSL they could. Since the team was good along with a new stadium, they made out well selling game by game.

Now there is a waiting list (40,000+) for any seats unless you use the secondary market (Ebay, seatowner, newspaper). This makes it easy for the team since they really don't have seats to sell. 3/4 of the stadium is PSL and the non PSL never get turned in.

This is obviously a trend based on this site:

https://www.seatowner.com/index.cfm

Check the marketplace for prices.

The other option is Club seats that have a high face but you need to take a lease (10 years) but you don't have the initial outlay of big $$ but they run $175-$400 per seat including pre season.

I read that Dallas allowed fans to "lock in" seat prices in 1971 which ran the "life of the stadium". You can bet JJ won't let this happen again and will make up for the bargain prices some have paid for 30+ years.

 

[GregR_2]

Rene,I still don't understand what the difference is between paying a one time PSL fee of $10K(viewing a 10 year contract) plus $200/game or just paying $300/game without a PSL. In the end, it's the same amount so why does it matter whether there's a PSL structure or not? Either you agree to pay it or you don't. Total free market decision. IMO, this is a huge reason why I don't attend too many live games because the trade off isn't worth that much cost to me. But for others it is, and if teams can charge those amounts and still sell out, then go for it. Business is business and free market economics should be left alone. That said, I still don't like the PSL structure but I'm not forced to buy them if I don't want. You can still just buy tickets via EBay or whatever and depending on those market conditions they're not much more than face value (then again, I'm used to not-sold-out Raider games).

Cash flow. In your own example, the team is bringing in $11,600 in period N and then $1,600 each in periods N+1 through N+9. The net present value of that is MUCH higher than if they were to collect $2,400 per period.

Also don't neglect the other aspect of them that is a positive for the team. In the PSLs I'm aware of, you lose the PSL if you do not buy the tickets each year. So the PSL makes it in the PSL owner's interest to buy the tickets, which will help keep the stadium filled even in economic recessions or rough years for the team where fan interest wanes. If he doesn't, he sells the PSL to someone else, who is in the same boat and will have to buy the tickets and keep demand up. Or, he gives up the PSL and the team is able to sell it again to someone else.

 

[Kiddnets]

anyone know if scalping laws apply if I own the seat via PSL? I would assume if its my property I can charge whatever I want instead of the cap that NY/NJ institutes on tickets.

Scalping laws, of course, still apply. PSLs don't give you ownership of the seat, they give you a legal right to purchase tickets for the seat at an agreed upon price.

so i guess you can sell the PSL for whatever you want without restriction...I dont want to hear teams and players whining about how the stadium is 50% empty when it is cold or how there is no loud cheering anymore or how the team is 50% visiting fans.....you price out the common fan and you get a laid back corporate crowd - it will be like the Garden - bunch of suits drinking and chatting business - no one caring about the game....although with the Knicks that is a good thing!

 

[Bri]

They should be illegal...period, and I'm very surprised that they haven't been better challenged in the courts, esp. considering that the NFL is a DeFacto trust, and as such may have to answer directly to congress if it's not careful. One of the quickest ways to lose your anti-trust protection is to start pricing the average consumer out of the ability to purchase your product.

If the seats sell out ridiculously fast, simply raise the price of the tickets a little. PSL's SHOULD BE ILLEGAL (and might be).

Challenged in court under what claim? Charging a lot of money isn't illegal.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/footbal...&position=1

That's an interesting case, but it has nothing to do with this issue, and it has nothing to do with PSLs. It has to do with standard damages that you learn about in your first year law of contracts.

It seems like it's getting deep enough in the court system that it will bring much of this to light. It probably started out like just any other creditor debtor type situation.Another article on that very same case brought up that there's something fishy about how owners have to share the revenue from PSL's or maybe the players don't get a cut of PSLs or the NFL doesn't...not sure but there was something fishy about it.

It seems to be the ladel stirring the pot. I hope that guy holds out as long as he can so we get more truths about teams and $ than we'd probably get without it being public record.