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NFLPA officially decertifies (1 Viewer)

'az_prof said:
This idea that somehow this is a "liberal" vs "conservative" issue is really mistaken. There are issues like that: abortion, campaigns contributions (Citizens United), Bush v Gore. But this isn't one of them. The NFL is so clearly and obviously in violation of anti-trust that there is no court that will rule in their favor. It isn't "conservative" to favor businesses that do not operate within the rules of capitalism. The bottom line is that not allowing players the freedom to compete in the open market and teams to compete for their services freely is a clear violation of the most basic premises of free market economics. I would say that a conservative should oppose the past practice EVEN more than a liberal.
:goodposting:
From the other thread:Don't be ridiculous. A judge's personal beliefs always come into play in interpreting the law. The people who simply say "the law is the law" and the judges are just there to enforce it are clearly oversimplifying. If it were that black and white, a sixth grader could be a judge. The fact of the matter is that the law, all law, is open for interpretation. The judge in this case (and indeed in all cases) have to interpret the law, but always bring their personal beliefs to the table about how the law should be interpreted/who the law is designed to protect. A judge could very easily have stayed within the law and ruled that the players would not be irreparably harmed by a lockout. A judge could have issued a stay by simply stating that even if the players prevailed, there is no damage to the players that could not be compensated for by a financial award. This judge wan't "in the tank" for the players, but her personal beliefs certainly influenced how she ruled on this case (and, in particular, her ruling to not stay the injunction pending appeal). To suggest otherwise is patently foolish and naive. The owners are hoping to get a more favorable ruling on appeal, however, the things that can be reviewed on appeal are far more limited and therefore being overturned is far less likely. If I had to guess, the owners will be hammering the jurisdictional on appeal. They presented a bunch of evidence on that issue at trial and this will be one of the issues reviewable by the Court of Appeals. If the Court of Appeals interprets the law regarding jurisdiction in favor of the owners, then this whole case never happened and we go back in front of the NLRB. A longshot, but the owner's best shot at this point.
 
The legality of drafts that are agreed to in collective bargaining agreements isn't based on the incoming players' (implied or express) consent. It's based on the right of the union to negotiate terms that apply to prospective hires as well as to existing employees (as long as it does so in good faith).
Back to this. If the revived NFLPA agrees to a rookie salary cap, does it not run the risk of prospective hires taking action against it for not negotiating in their best interests? And what form could said action take?
 
I think the thing that really bugs me about the most about the player's use of the legal system is that the NFL and how it's set up and operates is unique and in my opinion should absolutely 100 percent NOT be subject to the same laws, etc... governing more typical labor situations.

To me, it would make a lot more sense if everyone just ackowledged that the NFL is in fact a different animal. Not a monopoly, but also not free-enterprise - rather something in between, and everyone is ok with it. And then just let judges rule on specific things that may come up within that operating understanding, not necessarily on the whole understanding in the first place.

 
I think the thing that really bugs me about the most about the player's use of the legal system is that the NFL and how it's set up and operates is unique and in my opinion should absolutely 100 percent NOT be subject to the same laws, etc... governing more typical labor situations.

To me, it would make a lot more sense if everyone just ackowledged that the NFL is in fact a different animal. Not a monopoly, but also not free-enterprise - rather something in between, and everyone is ok with it. And then just let judges rule on specific things that may come up within that operating understanding, not necessarily on the whole understanding in the first place.
I'm not ok with it. I don't think it's in anyone's best interest to grant these 31 guys even more monopolistic powers.
 
I think the thing that really bugs me about the most about the player's use of the legal system is that the NFL and how it's set up and operates is unique and in my opinion should absolutely 100 percent NOT be subject to the same laws, etc... governing more typical labor situations.

To me, it would make a lot more sense if everyone just ackowledged that the NFL is in fact a different animal. Not a monopoly, but also not free-enterprise - rather something in between, and everyone is ok with it. And then just let judges rule on specific things that may come up within that operating understanding, not necessarily on the whole understanding in the first place.
I'm not ok with it. I don't think it's in anyone's best interest to grant these 31 guys even more monopolistic powers.
The teams and players (employees) and union were ok with it for years. Not sure you not being ok with really matters, or me, or any one of us not personally involved. And I disagree with you.

 
I think the thing that really bugs me about the most about the player's use of the legal system is that the NFL and how it's set up and operates is unique and in my opinion should absolutely 100 percent NOT be subject to the same laws, etc... governing more typical labor situations. To me, it would make a lot more sense if everyone just ackowledged that the NFL is in fact a different animal. Not a monopoly, but also not free-enterprise - rather something in between, and everyone is ok with it. And then just let judges rule on specific things that may come up within that operating understanding, not necessarily on the whole understanding in the first place.
There is a way to acknowledge that the NFL is different and to come to an agreement that everyone is OK with; it's called a Collective Bargaining Agreement. The owners opted out of it. Until a new agreement is reached, there is no agreement on how to run the league, which means the NFL is subject to labor laws, and that's entirely appropriate.
 
Certainly, but common sense dictates that the revenue % would not then be a constantly rising number. The hard truth is that if other costs rise, the players revenue % HAS to fall in order to maintain profitability. The players refuse to go backwards in % simply because the NFL isn't losing money yet. They are demanding proof when the proof is self-evidant. Other costs related to the economy are blatantly obvious and don't require a line by line expense report, because we can ALL see them.

In other words, to keep the last CBA arrangement, the players pay would continue to rise while the owners PROFITS remain stagnant or continue to fall. Why should the owners % of revenue fall while the players' rises (or remains stagnant)? How is THAT fair? The players deny this fact when it's obvious. The fact that it's obvious makes the demands for a detailed expense report unreasonable, because the players have already shown that they will manipulate those figures in any way possible to support their position, and criticize every decision made publicly.
As overly broad, general statements, you are correct. But it doesn't have much to do with the complex reality of the last CBA and how it operated. First off, if overall league revenue increases at a faster rate than the combined increases in player % of revenue or other costs, then the owners' profits continue to increase. For example --

Year 1: Revenue is $800; Players get $400 (50%); Other costs are $200. Profits are $200 (or 25%).

Year 2: Revenue is $1000; Players get $510 (51%); Other costs are $225. Profits are $265 (or 26.5%).

Players % of revenue is up. Other costs are up. But revenue increased to such an extent that profits increased both in absolute and percentage.

But what most people fail to realize is that the players % wasn't of overall revenue but of a category of revenue that had a collection of other costs removed off the top by the owners. (Confusingly, that category was called "total revenue" even though it was anything but -- a nice public relations maneuver by the owners). As has been shown repeatedly in this thread, while the players % of their category of revenue was increasing, their % of overall revenue was actually going down. That's because those other costs (which were completely in the control of the owners) consisted mostly of stadium improvements, which fell into what was allowed to be taken off the top.

The public view of the old CBA was that the players really made out -- and that's because player salaries had a huge increase in 2006. But their cut of revenues has been decreasing ever since. Only because the NFL is an economic monster have player salaries continued to increase year-over-year. The old CBA was actually a good deal long-term for the owners collectively. The longer it was continued, the better %'s they'd get of overall revenue.

The reason they blew it up was because of internal strife over how to share their money. Jerry Jones, Dan Snyder, and their ilk don't want to share any more of the revenue they generated with the owners who don't know how to maximize their own revenue but instead think of the NFL as the ultimate billionaire's toy. It had almost nothing to do with the players sucking up so much money.

Now, we've debated these things before, and it's certainly a debateable position. What's not debateable are these facts:

1. The NFL can not legally operate as it has in the past without a CBA.

2. The players have the POWER to destroy the NFL as we know it.

3. A lockout was not a nuclear option, but decertification is.

I am NOT OK with a union holding its bosses by the nuts, any union, anywhere. That is NOT a free market, despite insistances to the contrary.

The owners are NOT innocent. If they gave up real money in the TV deal to buy lockout insurance, the players should receive treble damages. But "greed" is not solely on the owners side of the table. Too many guys on the players side are too quick to label the owners greedy without looking harder at their precious players.
1. It can. It will just be much more difficult. And what they can and cannot do will ultimately be decided in court. It's much less expensive to agree to a new CBA with the players.2. So do the owners. But it's in neither of their interests, so all of this is nothing more than maneuvering for leverage in negotiations. That's all.

3. Then the owners shouldn't have pissed off the people who had their fingers on the red button.

The one thing I'm most convinced of after all of this, Paul Tagliabue deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. He's being kept out because he pushed through the 2006 CBA. Ha! What a joke! By the end of this, the owners are going to realize Tags was vastly superior to Goodell.

 
I think the thing that really bugs me about the most about the player's use of the legal system is that the NFL and how it's set up and operates is unique and in my opinion should absolutely 100 percent NOT be subject to the same laws, etc... governing more typical labor situations. To me, it would make a lot more sense if everyone just ackowledged that the NFL is in fact a different animal. Not a monopoly, but also not free-enterprise - rather something in between, and everyone is ok with it. And then just let judges rule on specific things that may come up within that operating understanding, not necessarily on the whole understanding in the first place.
Write your Congressman, then. Because an act of Congress is the only way your change is going to take place.
 
Certainly, but common sense dictates that the revenue % would not then be a constantly rising number. The hard truth is that if other costs rise, the players revenue % HAS to fall in order to maintain profitability. The players refuse to go backwards in % simply because the NFL isn't losing money yet. They are demanding proof when the proof is self-evidant. Other costs related to the economy are blatantly obvious and don't require a line by line expense report, because we can ALL see them.

In other words, to keep the last CBA arrangement, the players pay would continue to rise while the owners PROFITS remain stagnant or continue to fall. Why should the owners % of revenue fall while the players' rises (or remains stagnant)? How is THAT fair? The players deny this fact when it's obvious. The fact that it's obvious makes the demands for a detailed expense report unreasonable, because the players have already shown that they will manipulate those figures in any way possible to support their position, and criticize every decision made publicly.
As overly broad, general statements, you are correct. But it doesn't have much to do with the complex reality of the last CBA and how it operated. First off, if overall league revenue increases at a faster rate than the combined increases in player % of revenue or other costs, then the owners' profits continue to increase. For example --

Year 1: Revenue is $800; Players get $400 (50%); Other costs are $200. Profits are $200 (or 25%).

Year 2: Revenue is $1000; Players get $510 (51%); Other costs are $225. Profits are $265 (or 26.5%).

Players % of revenue is up. Other costs are up. But revenue increased to such an extent that profits increased both in absolute and percentage.

But what most people fail to realize is that the players % wasn't of overall revenue but of a category of revenue that had a collection of other costs removed off the top by the owners. (Confusingly, that category was called "total revenue" even though it was anything but -- a nice public relations maneuver by the owners). As has been shown repeatedly in this thread, while the players % of their category of revenue was increasing, their % of overall revenue was actually going down. That's because those other costs (which were completely in the control of the owners) consisted mostly of stadium improvements, which fell into what was allowed to be taken off the top.

The public view of the old CBA was that the players really made out -- and that's because player salaries had a huge increase in 2006. But their cut of revenues has been decreasing ever since. Only because the NFL is an economic monster have player salaries continued to increase year-over-year. The old CBA was actually a good deal long-term for the owners collectively. The longer it was continued, the better %'s they'd get of overall revenue.

The reason they blew it up was because of internal strife over how to share their money. Jerry Jones, Dan Snyder, and their ilk don't want to share any more of the revenue they generated with the owners who don't know how to maximize their own revenue but instead think of the NFL as the ultimate billionaire's toy. It had almost nothing to do with the players sucking up so much money.

Now, we've debated these things before, and it's certainly a debateable position. What's not debateable are these facts:

1. The NFL can not legally operate as it has in the past without a CBA.

2. The players have the POWER to destroy the NFL as we know it.

3. A lockout was not a nuclear option, but decertification is.

I am NOT OK with a union holding its bosses by the nuts, any union, anywhere. That is NOT a free market, despite insistances to the contrary.

The owners are NOT innocent. If they gave up real money in the TV deal to buy lockout insurance, the players should receive treble damages. But "greed" is not solely on the owners side of the table. Too many guys on the players side are too quick to label the owners greedy without looking harder at their precious players.
1. It can. It will just be much more difficult. And what they can and cannot do will ultimately be decided in court. It's much less expensive to agree to a new CBA with the players.2. So do the owners. But it's in neither of their interests, so all of this is nothing more than maneuvering for leverage in negotiations. That's all.

3. Then the owners shouldn't have pissed off the people who had their fingers on the red button.

The one thing I'm most convinced of after all of this, Paul Tagliabue deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. He's being kept out because he pushed through the 2006 CBA. Ha! What a joke! By the end of this, the owners are going to realize Tags was vastly superior to Goodell.
The NFL operated for years without a CBA after the 1987 strike/lockout. I dont see why this time would be more difficult
 
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The one thing I'm most convinced of after all of this, Paul Tagliabue deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. He's being kept out because he pushed through the 2006 CBA. Ha! What a joke! By the end of this, the owners are going to realize Tags was vastly superior to Goodell.
Tags and Gene Upshaw should be enshrined again. Goodell and Smith are a travishamockery of what these two other gentlemen were.
 
The NFL operated for years without a CBA after the 1987 strike/lockout. I dont see why this time would be more difficult
Perhaps. Last time they instituted their "last, best offer" from the previous negotiations, which was about as blatant a violation of antitrust law as you can imagine (Only the worst players get to negotiate individual contracts in a free market, the best 35 players on each club remain the exclusive property of their clubs even if their employment contract has expired, and the other teams will engage in a group boycott of those players should they attempt to seek employment with another club). I was thinking it would be more difficult because they wouldn't try to make the same kind of blatant mistakes as last time, but they have no guidance in what may be considered a "pro-competitive" way of running a league. They'll be operating blind, knowing that anything they guess wrong on comes with a lost lawsuit with triple damages. It's fun to think about in hypotheticals. But this thing will end with a new CBA. We just need a little patience.
 
Write your Congressman, then. Because an act of Congress is the only way your change is going to take place.
I'll get right on that.Was just expressing an opinion. The NFL's situation does not equate to other labor situations. If you don't see that, well.....
 
Write your Congressman, then. Because an act of Congress is the only way your change is going to take place.
I'll get right on that.Was just expressing an opinion. The NFL's situation does not equate to other labor situations. If you don't see that, well.....
Whether you or I see that is immaterial. The United States Supreme Court has declared the NFL's situation is just like other labor situations (and not in split decisions either -- the last was a unanimous 9-0 blowout). That's why it will take an act of Congress to declare otherwise.
 
Write your Congressman, then. Because an act of Congress is the only way your change is going to take place.
I'll get right on that.Was just expressing an opinion. The NFL's situation does not equate to other labor situations. If you don't see that, well.....
Under current law, there is no distinction between the varying labor situations. Current law doesn't care how many pennies or gazillions of dollars are involved or what type of industry it is. I don't anticipate a time where it ever will. Philosophically, I think a case can be argued that separates sport from other industries. But, what the players and owners are both learning here is that the law really favors the labor force--not the employers.
 
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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/04/26/mail/index.html?eref=writers

Part of King's column:

As I wrote late Monday night, the league filed two motions with Nelson's court. The first was a motion of clarification, seeking more information on the practical implications of the 89-page ruling. The second was a motion to stay her ruling while the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals in St. Louis hears the NFL's appeal of Monday's ruling. Regardless of whether she allows the stay, the future is murky. Three things could happen:

• She could allow the stay, keeping NFL doors locked until the appeals court hears the case.

• She could not allow the stay and order the 2011 league year -- with free-agency and player trades -- to begin immediately, or within days ... which would throw the league into chaos this week as it prepares for the three-day draft, set to begin Thursday night in New York.

• Or she could allow the Eighth Circuit to rule on the stay, which one legal expert Monday night said would take between two and seven days. In this case, the appeals court could either order the league year to start immediately or wait until the resolution of the case in appeals.
Apologize if this has been covered, but what goes into her decision regarding the bolded, and is there any thoughts on what decision she is most likely to make?
 
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http://sportsillustr...ml?eref=writers

Part of King's column:

As I wrote late Monday night, the league filed two motions with Nelson's court. The first was a motion of clarification, seeking more information on the practical implications of the 89-page ruling. The second was a motion to stay her ruling while the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals in St. Louis hears the NFL's appeal of Monday's ruling. Regardless of whether she allows the stay, the future is murky. Three things could happen:

• She could allow the stay, keeping NFL doors locked until the appeals court hears the case.

• She could not allow the stay and order the 2011 league year -- with free-agency and player trades -- to begin immediately, or within days ... which would throw the league into chaos this week as it prepares for the three-day draft, set to begin Thursday night in New York.

• Or she could allow the Eighth Circuit to rule on the stay, which one legal expert Monday night said would take between two and seven days. In this case, the appeals court could either order the league year to start immediately or wait until the resolution of the case in appeals.
Apologize if this has been covered, but what goes into her decision regarding the bolded, and is there any thoughts on what decision she is most likely to make?
A stay will be granted based on perception of harm the injunction will cause (considering the harm to either party), and the likelihood of the appeal being successful (or at least the case having merit).
 
Certainly, but common sense dictates that the revenue % would not then be a constantly rising number. The hard truth is that if other costs rise, the players revenue % HAS to fall in order to maintain profitability. The players refuse to go backwards in % simply because the NFL isn't losing money yet. They are demanding proof when the proof is self-evidant. Other costs related to the economy are blatantly obvious and don't require a line by line expense report, because we can ALL see them.

In other words, to keep the last CBA arrangement, the players pay would continue to rise while the owners PROFITS remain stagnant or continue to fall. Why should the owners % of revenue fall while the players' rises (or remains stagnant)? How is THAT fair? The players deny this fact when it's obvious. The fact that it's obvious makes the demands for a detailed expense report unreasonable, because the players have already shown that they will manipulate those figures in any way possible to support their position, and criticize every decision made publicly.
As overly broad, general statements, you are correct. But it doesn't have much to do with the complex reality of the last CBA and how it operated. First off, if overall league revenue increases at a faster rate than the combined increases in player % of revenue or other costs, then the owners' profits continue to increase. For example --

Year 1: Revenue is $800; Players get $400 (50%); Other costs are $200. Profits are $200 (or 25%).

Year 2: Revenue is $1000; Players get $510 (51%); Other costs are $225. Profits are $265 (or 26.5%).

Players % of revenue is up. Other costs are up. But revenue increased to such an extent that profits increased both in absolute and percentage.

But what most people fail to realize is that the players % wasn't of overall revenue but of a category of revenue that had a collection of other costs removed off the top by the owners. (Confusingly, that category was called "total revenue" even though it was anything but -- a nice public relations maneuver by the owners). As has been shown repeatedly in this thread, while the players % of their category of revenue was increasing, their % of overall revenue was actually going down. That's because those other costs (which were completely in the control of the owners) consisted mostly of stadium improvements, which fell into what was allowed to be taken off the top.

The public view of the old CBA was that the players really made out -- and that's because player salaries had a huge increase in 2006. But their cut of revenues has been decreasing ever since. Only because the NFL is an economic monster have player salaries continued to increase year-over-year. The old CBA was actually a good deal long-term for the owners collectively. The longer it was continued, the better %'s they'd get of overall revenue.

The reason they blew it up was because of internal strife over how to share their money. Jerry Jones, Dan Snyder, and their ilk don't want to share any more of the revenue they generated with the owners who don't know how to maximize their own revenue but instead think of the NFL as the ultimate billionaire's toy. It had almost nothing to do with the players sucking up so much money.

Now, we've debated these things before, and it's certainly a debateable position. What's not debateable are these facts:

1. The NFL can not legally operate as it has in the past without a CBA.

2. The players have the POWER to destroy the NFL as we know it.

3. A lockout was not a nuclear option, but decertification is.

I am NOT OK with a union holding its bosses by the nuts, any union, anywhere. That is NOT a free market, despite insistances to the contrary.

The owners are NOT innocent. If they gave up real money in the TV deal to buy lockout insurance, the players should receive treble damages. But "greed" is not solely on the owners side of the table. Too many guys on the players side are too quick to label the owners greedy without looking harder at their precious players.
1. It can. It will just be much more difficult. And what they can and cannot do will ultimately be decided in court. It's much less expensive to agree to a new CBA with the players.2. So do the owners. But it's in neither of their interests, so all of this is nothing more than maneuvering for leverage in negotiations. That's all.

3. Then the owners shouldn't have pissed off the people who had their fingers on the red button.

The one thing I'm most convinced of after all of this, Paul Tagliabue deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. He's being kept out because he pushed through the 2006 CBA. Ha! What a joke! By the end of this, the owners are going to realize Tags was vastly superior to Goodell.
Well I defer to your legal expertise, but I think you are incorrect in at least one area. My understanding is the league took a $1 billion cut off the top before the % cut for the players took place. Part of the problem is if the league has gone from 7 to 9 billion $$ in revenue, the $1 billion the owners were using to promote the league (stadium upgrades, NFL network, foreign country growth, etc) stayed the same but a smaller percentage of the pot. The player's cut grew in actual $$ amount - which therefore would increase the other costs the owners would have to pay (ie benefits, taxes, etc) at a higher rate. The way I see it, the amount used to promote the game needs to be a % of revenue and not a set amount. And I think this fund should be financially transparent. The union would have no right to say if the owners were using in the way they see best, but would be able to halt payments for anything that could line the pockets of owners without the $$ getting included in the revenue pot eventually (ie, no pay relatives, etc).

 
Well I defer to your legal expertise, but I think you are incorrect in at least one area. My understanding is the league took a $1 billion cut off the top before the % cut for the players took place. Part of the problem is if the league has gone from 7 to 9 billion $ in revenue, the $1 billion the owners were using to promote the league (stadium upgrades, NFL network, foreign country growth, etc) stayed the same but a smaller percentage of the pot. The player's cut grew in actual $ amount - which therefore would increase the other costs the owners would have to pay (ie benefits, taxes, etc) at a higher rate.
The money used to pay the players grew in actual $ amount, too; in fact, in direct proportion to the additional costs for taxes. It's a wash. And the owners still have $1B to play with on their own.
 
You make NO sense. Basically, the players are in the wrong because they're in the right legally.??? What rationale or critia would you suggest is greater than the law in terms of the "reasonableness of those counter-policies"? If it isn't the law, what? And what criteria do you use to claim the Union "holds more power than is reasonable in negotiation"? The fact that they are legally correct? That's insane. Basically, you don't like the outcome so you claim that the players have too much power. If the Owners want more power, they should get on the right side of the law. It's that simple.

What are they teaching the kids these days?
No kid here. My basic statement is simple enough for anyone to get: JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS LEGAL DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT.The NFL violates a number of labor laws because those violations make their business stronger, more valuable, and more profitable. At the same time, the NFL shares those profits with a Union, so that the employees benefit from it. But the employees in this case have taken advantage of the situation, and are extorting the owners, wanting a share of REVENUES (not profits) that these businessmen have determined is unhealthy for their business.

Too many of us have assumed that the players care about profitability and the FUTURE of the sport. They don't...not one bit. IN fact, that's what makes this unique. These players care only for their own pockets, not those of QB X drafted hired into the league 15 years from now when the NFL is a shell of it's former self.

The power the players union has is exceptional in labor negotiations. It is, IMHO, an unacceptable reversal bordering on extortion. The fact that it's "legal" is immaterial. THE LAW IS NOT ALWAYS RIGHT.
How could these lowly employees some with unfathomly low Wonderlic scores take advantage of these experienced genius businessmen? :boxing: Just kidding.Extorting? All they are trying to do is keep the status quo. If anyone is trying to extort something it is the owners trying to take another $1 billion more. These same businessmen who you state have determined that this situation is unhealthy for their business without offering any real proof and negotiated in bad faith a lesser TV deal for no other reason than to extort more money from the players are now to be implicitly trusted?

I agree somewhat that the players don't care about the future of the sport but they do care about the future of their brethren and is why they are trying to protect what they have gained through negotiation. Once something is given up in a negoatiation it is very very difficult to get back in future negotiations.

 
Well I defer to your legal expertise, but I think you are incorrect in at least one area. My understanding is the league took a $1 billion cut off the top before the % cut for the players took place. Part of the problem is if the league has gone from 7 to 9 billion $$ in revenue, the $1 billion the owners were using to promote the league (stadium upgrades, NFL network, foreign country growth, etc) stayed the same but a smaller percentage of the pot. The player's cut grew in actual $$ amount - which therefore would increase the other costs the owners would have to pay (ie benefits, taxes, etc) at a higher rate. The way I see it, the amount used to promote the game needs to be a % of revenue and not a set amount. And I think this fund should be financially transparent. The union would have no right to say if the owners were using in the way they see best, but would be able to halt payments for anything that could line the pockets of owners without the $$ getting included in the revenue pot eventually (ie, no pay relatives, etc).
The old CBA didn't give the owners a set figure of money off the top (i.e. $1B). It was money off the top used for certain purposes. In 2006, that number measured (I think) somewhere between $100M - $150M. But it exploded afterwards to the point it had gotten to $1B in 2009. So the amount used to promote the game was determined not by a bunch of lawyers, but by how much was actually spent to promote the game. That was 100% under the control of the owners, and resulted in the players getting an ever decreasing % of the overall revenues. The net dollar amounts continued to go up, but at a much lower rate of increase than actual revenues the league was bringing in.
 
Well I defer to your legal expertise, but I think you are incorrect in at least one area. My understanding is the league took a $1 billion cut off the top before the % cut for the players took place. Part of the problem is if the league has gone from 7 to 9 billion $$ in revenue, the $1 billion the owners were using to promote the league (stadium upgrades, NFL network, foreign country growth, etc) stayed the same but a smaller percentage of the pot. The player's cut grew in actual $$ amount - which therefore would increase the other costs the owners would have to pay (ie benefits, taxes, etc) at a higher rate. The way I see it, the amount used to promote the game needs to be a % of revenue and not a set amount. And I think this fund should be financially transparent. The union would have no right to say if the owners were using in the way they see best, but would be able to halt payments for anything that could line the pockets of owners without the $$ getting included in the revenue pot eventually (ie, no pay relatives, etc).
The old CBA didn't give the owners a set figure of money off the top (i.e. $1B). It was money off the top used for certain purposes. In 2006, that number measured (I think) somewhere between $100M - $150M. But it exploded afterwards to the point it had gotten to $1B in 2009. So the amount used to promote the game was determined not by a bunch of lawyers, but by how much was actually spent to promote the game. That was 100% under the control of the owners, and resulted in the players getting an ever decreasing % of the overall revenues. The net dollar amounts continued to go up, but at a much lower rate of increase than actual revenues the league was bringing in.
ok, I must have misunderstood this aspect of the $1 billion the owners were taking off the top. I thought I had read it was a set amount and not a % that would rise or fall with the economic health of the NFL.
 
While the unexpected decision of the Giants to allow players to work out has been heralded by some as a sign of “class,” it could be that team management has opted to take the safest path possible in response to the order enjoining the lockout.

You know, the path that doesn’t involve a perp walk.

For any team that either didn’t let players in or refused to give them access to the weight room, a potentially significant risk has been assumed. If Judge Nelson intends her 89-page ruling ending with “[t]he lockout is enjoined” to mean that the lockout doesn’t exist — in other words, that as of 12:01 a.m. on March 12, 2011, the lockout never happened — the response could be a finding that any team refusing to conduct business as usual is in violation of the Court order.
link
 
'wdcrob said:
Certainly, but common sense dictates that the revenue % would not then be a constantly rising number.
You keep saying this, but it's not the case. And IIRC it's been addressed several times in this thread. The percentage has been pretty stable over time - there's just confusion about that because people are counting differently.
It is very doubtful that the percentage of revenues will continue to constantly rise indefinitely. Like the stock market, the valuation may increase when you look at the big picture, but the % of increase will rise and fall, and in some years may actually decline in absolute terms. Teams may actually lose money, rather than see just a drop in profits. I don't understand the resistance to this notion.
 
The old CBA didn't give the owners a set figure of money off the top (i.e. $1B). It was money off the top used for certain purposes. In 2006, that number measured (I think) somewhere between $100M - $150M. But it exploded afterwards to the point it had gotten to $1B in 2009. So the amount used to promote the game was determined not by a bunch of lawyers, but by how much was actually spent to promote the game. That was 100% under the control of the owners, and resulted in the players getting an ever decreasing % of the overall revenues. The net dollar amounts continued to go up, but at a much lower rate of increase than actual revenues the league was bringing in.
Thank you for this clarification. While I still side with the owners philosophically, I have a greater appreciation for the arguments of the players. A growth in "expenses intended to raise the popularity of the league" (IE: NFLN, games in London, etc.) of this proportion (600% in 4 years) is certainly worth a few eyebrows being raised. Other expenses (rising stadium costs) are not. I was under the assumption that the number was a flat figure of a billion.
 
The old CBA didn't give the owners a set figure of money off the top (i.e. $1B). It was money off the top used for certain purposes. In 2006, that number measured (I think) somewhere between $100M - $150M. But it exploded afterwards to the point it had gotten to $1B in 2009. So the amount used to promote the game was determined not by a bunch of lawyers, but by how much was actually spent to promote the game. That was 100% under the control of the owners, and resulted in the players getting an ever decreasing % of the overall revenues. The net dollar amounts continued to go up, but at a much lower rate of increase than actual revenues the league was bringing in.
Thank you for this clarification. While I still side with the owners philosophically, I have a greater appreciation for the arguments of the players. A growth in "expenses intended to raise the popularity of the league" (IE: NFLN, games in London, etc.) of this proportion (600% in 4 years) is certainly worth a few eyebrows being raised. Other expenses (rising stadium costs) are not. I was under the assumption that the number was a flat figure of a billion.
The largest portion of that increase is from the Cowboys and New Meadowlands stadiums. In previous years, the cities and states took on the bulk of the financing. But the Cowboys paid over 70% of their new stadium's construction costs, and the Giants and Jets combined to foot the entire bill for their new stadium (both the two most expensive stadiums ever built in the U.S.). I think a contributing factor for those decisions was the knowledge that the teams could get the players to pay a portion of those expenses based on the fine print in the CBA. P.S. If the lockout is lifted and the NFL decides to not go with the 2010 rules (which would be pretty foolish in my opinion) but instead went with a "wild west" free for all, then the franchise tag will go bye-bye. Peyton Manning is about to become an unrestricted free agent.

 
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The old CBA didn't give the owners a set figure of money off the top (i.e. $1B). It was money off the top used for certain purposes. In 2006, that number measured (I think) somewhere between $100M - $150M. But it exploded afterwards to the point it had gotten to $1B in 2009. So the amount used to promote the game was determined not by a bunch of lawyers, but by how much was actually spent to promote the game. That was 100% under the control of the owners, and resulted in the players getting an ever decreasing % of the overall revenues. The net dollar amounts continued to go up, but at a much lower rate of increase than actual revenues the league was bringing in.
Thank you for this clarification. While I still side with the owners philosophically, I have a greater appreciation for the arguments of the players. A growth in "expenses intended to raise the popularity of the league" (IE: NFLN, games in London, etc.) of this proportion (600% in 4 years) is certainly worth a few eyebrows being raised. Other expenses (rising stadium costs) are not. I was under the assumption that the number was a flat figure of a billion.
That was my understand as well. I am going to go back and see if I can dig up where I had read the off the top amount was a set amount and the problem was it was not setup to grow along with increased revenues.
 
'Ksquared said:
'renesauz said:
'Orange Crush said:
The old CBA didn't give the owners a set figure of money off the top (i.e. $1B). It was money off the top used for certain purposes. In 2006, that number measured (I think) somewhere between $100M - $150M. But it exploded afterwards to the point it had gotten to $1B in 2009. So the amount used to promote the game was determined not by a bunch of lawyers, but by how much was actually spent to promote the game. That was 100% under the control of the owners, and resulted in the players getting an ever decreasing % of the overall revenues. The net dollar amounts continued to go up, but at a much lower rate of increase than actual revenues the league was bringing in.
Thank you for this clarification. While I still side with the owners philosophically, I have a greater appreciation for the arguments of the players. A growth in "expenses intended to raise the popularity of the league" (IE: NFLN, games in London, etc.) of this proportion (600% in 4 years) is certainly worth a few eyebrows being raised. Other expenses (rising stadium costs) are not. I was under the assumption that the number was a flat figure of a billion.
That was my understand as well. I am going to go back and see if I can dig up where I had read the off the top amount was a set amount and the problem was it was not setup to grow along with increased revenues.
Start with the actual 2006 CBA.
 

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