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NFLPA officially decertifies (2 Viewers)

I think it's important to remember a few things here in regards to the pro/anti-union arguments.

The NFL wants the players to have a union. They actually want to block the NFLPA from decertifying. Why? Because the owners can do a lot of things through collective bargaining that they would not be allowed to under the law, otherwise. Things like holding a rookie draft, having restricted free agency, franchise tags, revenue sharing, among many others.

Getting rid of all CBAs and Unions in football would be devastating to the league we love. It would quickly become very much like baseball, with big market teams buying up all the best players, and small market teams trying to remain above water by keeping costs down to the bare minimum. Would Chiefs fans still support their team when they had essentially no chance of competing for a title? Or Raiders fans? Bills? Jaguars? Vikings? Falcons?

The ability to compete would be completely linked to the profitability of the stadium. Which, I think, would give owners greater leverage in their dealings with cities over stadium construction. You want the city to have a winner? Then the city needs to pony up the dough. Though how much of that money goes to improving player salaries and how much goes into the owner's back pocket is solely determined by the whim of the owner. After all, Mike Brown got a sweetheart deal from the city of Cincinnati on his new stadium, yet he is still the biggest penny pencher in the league (team operating costs were the lowest in the league in '09, $35M lower than the league average, while their profits were $49.4M, $15M above the league average (per Forbes)).

I know others have said this before -- but this is really a battle between and among the NFL owners. Average club profits in '09 were $33.4M. But that ranged from a $7.7M loss (Dolphins) to a $143.3M gain (Cowboys). With a salary cap, and salary floor, the increasing revenues from some teams are raising the salary floor to a point where small market teams and teams in bad stadiums are having a hard time maintaining their normal levels of profitability (note: the Dolphins had over $20M in profits in '08 -- there's a lot of annual fluctuation in profitability based on player costs and how active the team is in free agency). So instead of increasing revenue sharing between the high revenue teams and low revenue teams (which they did under the last CBA), they want to remove that revenue sharing and instead decrease player costs for everyone.
Very :goodposting: I was attempting to make the same points, but your post summarizes the situation better than I did. The NFL has to find a way to balance the small and large market teams to keep the parts of the league that we love so much. This side fight with the NFLPA(or the former NFLPA now) is just one part of this battle.
I think it also underlines the main reason why the NFL doesn't want to release their financial information. It would have led to the players arguing that the best way for the Bills, Jaguars, Raiders, et al. to not lose money is to increase revenue sharing since the Cowboys, Patriots, Redskins are raking in HUGE profits. But Jerry Jones was the loudest voice against revenue sharing. He wants to keep every single penny he creates in revenue, and thinks of the small revenue teams as being lazy and unworthy of his support.
 
...But the idea that the owners are hurting because of the greedy players or an unsustainable model seems pretty ridiculous given that, based on 20+ years of actual history, Jerry Jones can expect the value of the Cowboys to rise by roughly $100m next year as long as he fields a team.
First of all, the figures are not adjusted for inflation. Your point would still be correct, but not as drastic. These are perceived values, and there are no guarantees that anyone would actually pay these prices. That can not be known until the actual sale is made.
 
so since the contracts are not guaranteed why not cut everyone and just collude and pay every player like 60k? Players dont really have a right to anything imo, most players cycle in and out of the league so fast.
I think "collude" is the key reason here. Do you think if the the Colts offered Peyton Manning $60K and no other owners said they had any interest that would stand up in an anti-trust suit? and if this was what the NFL owners were offering, don't you think Mark Cuban and others would prop up a competing league that agreed to pay the players closer to real value?
 
As of now there in no NFL players union. The union has disbanded.Does that mean the owners can impose any kind of working agreement they want for their employees??
As long as it's legal.
so since the contracts are not guaranteed why not cut everyone and just collude and pay every player like 60k? Players dont really have a right to anything imo, most players cycle in and out of the league so fast.
Because its the collusion that's illegal.
 
As of now there in no NFL players union. The union has disbanded.Does that mean the owners can impose any kind of working agreement they want for their employees??
As long as it's legal.
so since the contracts are not guaranteed why not cut everyone and just collude and pay every player like 60k? Players dont really have a right to anything imo, most players cycle in and out of the league so fast.
Because its the collusion that's illegal.
is it? free market dictates that accounts get paid X. you want good ones? pay alittle more than X. you want to make more money leave x company.If another league wants to start up, let it. PLayers can playin CFL or UFL if they dont like what the nfl is paying.I know the NFL doesnt equal real life job, but thats why things like drafts and restrcition of free agency is important for the good of the whole league.trying to get rid of that stuff will hurt the league in the long run IMO and all sports have drafts even baseball
 
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I think it's important to remember a few things here in regards to the pro/anti-union arguments.

The NFL wants the players to have a union. They actually want to block the NFLPA from decertifying. Why? Because the owners can do a lot of things through collective bargaining that they would not be allowed to under the law, otherwise. Things like holding a rookie draft, having restricted free agency, franchise tags, revenue sharing, among many others.

Getting rid of all CBAs and Unions in football would be devastating to the league we love. It would quickly become very much like baseball, with big market teams buying up all the best players, and small market teams trying to remain above water by keeping costs down to the bare minimum. Would Chiefs fans still support their team when they had essentially no chance of competing for a title? Or Raiders fans? Bills? Jaguars? Vikings? Falcons?

The ability to compete would be completely linked to the profitability of the stadium. Which, I think, would give owners greater leverage in their dealings with cities over stadium construction. You want the city to have a winner? Then the city needs to pony up the dough. Though how much of that money goes to improving player salaries and how much goes into the owner's back pocket is solely determined by the whim of the owner. After all, Mike Brown got a sweetheart deal from the city of Cincinnati on his new stadium, yet he is still the biggest penny pencher in the league (team operating costs were the lowest in the league in '09, $35M lower than the league average, while their profits were $49.4M, $15M above the league average (per Forbes)).

I know others have said this before -- but this is really a battle between and among the NFL owners. Average club profits in '09 were $33.4M. But that ranged from a $7.7M loss (Dolphins) to a $143.3M gain (Cowboys). With a salary cap, and salary floor, the increasing revenues from some teams are raising the salary floor to a point where small market teams and teams in bad stadiums are having a hard time maintaining their normal levels of profitability (note: the Dolphins had over $20M in profits in '08 -- there's a lot of annual fluctuation in profitability based on player costs and how active the team is in free agency). So instead of increasing revenue sharing between the high revenue teams and low revenue teams (which they did under the last CBA), they want to remove that revenue sharing and instead decrease player costs for everyone.
Very :goodposting: I was attempting to make the same points, but your post summarizes the situation better than I did. The NFL has to find a way to balance the small and large market teams to keep the parts of the league that we love so much. This side fight with the NFLPA(or the former NFLPA now) is just one part of this battle.
I think it also underlines the main reason why the NFL doesn't want to release their financial information. It would have led to the players arguing that the best way for the Bills, Jaguars, Raiders, et al. to not lose money is to increase revenue sharing since the Cowboys, Patriots, Redskins are raking in HUGE profits. But Jerry Jones was the loudest voice against revenue sharing. He wants to keep every single penny he creates in revenue, and thinks of the small revenue teams as being lazy and unworthy of his support.
What financial information do the union need? Why do they need it?Don't the owners already provide profitability information on the league as a whole, and if the league revenues is based on revenue sharing amongst league owners, why should they have to go into the finer details of their businesses?

 
...Ever see Earl Campbell try to walk? Ever get 10 concussions from your job? If you did, you would likely get a great settlement, that would include health benefits....
This is where the unions position falls flat for me. Part of their negotiations should be things that help players maintain their health and this means limiting the actions of other players. And the fines are ridiculously low. They should demand for a list of infractions, whether penalties called in the game or not, be assigned by missing games/parts of games(and the corresponding paychecks. Those safeties who launch themselves into defenseless receivers should be punished, and if I was a player I would want my union to fight for this. This would lengthen my career, and give me a better post-career life. But there is an unspoken, ridiculous rule that players can't demand certain rules for other players. Players refuse to ask for policing against other players, they only want to fight management.
 
As of now there in no NFL players union. The union has disbanded.Does that mean the owners can impose any kind of working agreement they want for their employees??
As long as it's legal.
so since the contracts are not guaranteed why not cut everyone and just collude and pay every player like 60k? Players dont really have a right to anything imo, most players cycle in and out of the league so fast.
Because its the collusion that's illegal.
is it? free market dictates that accounts get paid X. you want good ones? pay alittle more than X. you want to make more money leave x company.If another league wants to start up, let it. PLayers can playin CFL or UFL if they dont like what the nfl is paying.I know the NFL doesnt equal real life job, but thats why things like drafts and restrcition of free agency is important for the good of the whole league.trying to get rid of that stuff will hurt the league in the long run IMO and all sports have drafts even baseball
Your argument only works if the NFL is one company. It isn't. In the eyes of the law, the NFL consists of 32 separate companies, and any collusion among those 32 companies to restrict compensation to their employees is a blatant violation of antitrust law.
 
I think it's important to remember a few things here in regards to the pro/anti-union arguments.

The NFL wants the players to have a union. They actually want to block the NFLPA from decertifying. Why? Because the owners can do a lot of things through collective bargaining that they would not be allowed to under the law, otherwise. Things like holding a rookie draft, having restricted free agency, franchise tags, revenue sharing, among many others.

Getting rid of all CBAs and Unions in football would be devastating to the league we love. It would quickly become very much like baseball, with big market teams buying up all the best players, and small market teams trying to remain above water by keeping costs down to the bare minimum. Would Chiefs fans still support their team when they had essentially no chance of competing for a title? Or Raiders fans? Bills? Jaguars? Vikings? Falcons?

The ability to compete would be completely linked to the profitability of the stadium. Which, I think, would give owners greater leverage in their dealings with cities over stadium construction. You want the city to have a winner? Then the city needs to pony up the dough. Though how much of that money goes to improving player salaries and how much goes into the owner's back pocket is solely determined by the whim of the owner. After all, Mike Brown got a sweetheart deal from the city of Cincinnati on his new stadium, yet he is still the biggest penny pencher in the league (team operating costs were the lowest in the league in '09, $35M lower than the league average, while their profits were $49.4M, $15M above the league average (per Forbes)).

I know others have said this before -- but this is really a battle between and among the NFL owners. Average club profits in '09 were $33.4M. But that ranged from a $7.7M loss (Dolphins) to a $143.3M gain (Cowboys). With a salary cap, and salary floor, the increasing revenues from some teams are raising the salary floor to a point where small market teams and teams in bad stadiums are having a hard time maintaining their normal levels of profitability (note: the Dolphins had over $20M in profits in '08 -- there's a lot of annual fluctuation in profitability based on player costs and how active the team is in free agency). So instead of increasing revenue sharing between the high revenue teams and low revenue teams (which they did under the last CBA), they want to remove that revenue sharing and instead decrease player costs for everyone.
Very :goodposting: I was attempting to make the same points, but your post summarizes the situation better than I did. The NFL has to find a way to balance the small and large market teams to keep the parts of the league that we love so much. This side fight with the NFLPA (or the former NFLPA now) is just one part of this battle.
I think it also underlines the main reason why the NFL doesn't want to release their financial information. It would have led to the players arguing that the best way for the Bills, Jaguars, Raiders, et al. to not lose money is to increase revenue sharing since the Cowboys, Patriots, Redskins are raking in HUGE profits. But Jerry Jones was the loudest voice against revenue sharing. He wants to keep every single penny he creates in revenue, and thinks of the small revenue teams as being lazy and unworthy of his support.
What financial information do the union need? Why do they need it?Don't the owners already provide profitability information on the league as a whole, and if the league revenues is based on revenue sharing amongst league owners, why should they have to go into the finer details of their businesses?
Because the owners want a bigger slice off the top before they start sharing. If the players don't ask for this now, what stops the owners later saying we need $7B of the $9B off the top? Where does it end for the players. The players said all along that maybe this makes sense. But show us WHY we need to give an extra billion a year. The very fact that the owners decreased their demand to $500K a year makes this smell even worse. Is there a reason to give the carve out or not? To the players credit, they have been asking for this info for a long, long time.
 
As of now there in no NFL players union. The union has disbanded.Does that mean the owners can impose any kind of working agreement they want for their employees??
As long as it's legal.
so since the contracts are not guaranteed why not cut everyone and just collude and pay every player like 60k? Players dont really have a right to anything imo, most players cycle in and out of the league so fast.
Because its the collusion that's illegal.
is it? free market dictates that accounts get paid X. you want good ones? pay alittle more than X. you want to make more money leave x company.If another league wants to start up, let it. PLayers can playin CFL or UFL if they dont like what the nfl is paying.I know the NFL doesnt equal real life job, but thats why things like drafts and restrcition of free agency is important for the good of the whole league.trying to get rid of that stuff will hurt the league in the long run IMO and all sports have drafts even baseball
Your argument only works if the NFL is one company. It isn't. In the eyes of the law, the NFL consists of 32 separate companies, and any collusion among those 32 companies to restrict compensation to their employees is a blatant violation of antitrust law.
so why cant re-organize. Im sure Jerry Jones dont want to do that. Dont the NFL have an anti-trust exemption? Im sure that will be challenged (maybe again?)Anyway this article says alot: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=lc-nfluncertainty031111
 
I think it's important to remember a few things here in regards to the pro/anti-union arguments.

The NFL wants the players to have a union. They actually want to block the NFLPA from decertifying. Why? Because the owners can do a lot of things through collective bargaining that they would not be allowed to under the law, otherwise. Things like holding a rookie draft, having restricted free agency, franchise tags, revenue sharing, among many others.

Getting rid of all CBAs and Unions in football would be devastating to the league we love. It would quickly become very much like baseball, with big market teams buying up all the best players, and small market teams trying to remain above water by keeping costs down to the bare minimum. Would Chiefs fans still support their team when they had essentially no chance of competing for a title? Or Raiders fans? Bills? Jaguars? Vikings? Falcons?

The ability to compete would be completely linked to the profitability of the stadium. Which, I think, would give owners greater leverage in their dealings with cities over stadium construction. You want the city to have a winner? Then the city needs to pony up the dough. Though how much of that money goes to improving player salaries and how much goes into the owner's back pocket is solely determined by the whim of the owner. After all, Mike Brown got a sweetheart deal from the city of Cincinnati on his new stadium, yet he is still the biggest penny pencher in the league (team operating costs were the lowest in the league in '09, $35M lower than the league average, while their profits were $49.4M, $15M above the league average (per Forbes)).

I know others have said this before -- but this is really a battle between and among the NFL owners. Average club profits in '09 were $33.4M. But that ranged from a $7.7M loss (Dolphins) to a $143.3M gain (Cowboys). With a salary cap, and salary floor, the increasing revenues from some teams are raising the salary floor to a point where small market teams and teams in bad stadiums are having a hard time maintaining their normal levels of profitability (note: the Dolphins had over $20M in profits in '08 -- there's a lot of annual fluctuation in profitability based on player costs and how active the team is in free agency). So instead of increasing revenue sharing between the high revenue teams and low revenue teams (which they did under the last CBA), they want to remove that revenue sharing and instead decrease player costs for everyone.
Very :goodposting: I was attempting to make the same points, but your post summarizes the situation better than I did. The NFL has to find a way to balance the small and large market teams to keep the parts of the league that we love so much. This side fight with the NFLPA (or the former NFLPA now) is just one part of this battle.
I think it also underlines the main reason why the NFL doesn't want to release their financial information. It would have led to the players arguing that the best way for the Bills, Jaguars, Raiders, et al. to not lose money is to increase revenue sharing since the Cowboys, Patriots, Redskins are raking in HUGE profits. But Jerry Jones was the loudest voice against revenue sharing. He wants to keep every single penny he creates in revenue, and thinks of the small revenue teams as being lazy and unworthy of his support.
What financial information do the union need? Why do they need it?Don't the owners already provide profitability information on the league as a whole, and if the league revenues is based on revenue sharing amongst league owners, why should they have to go into the finer details of their businesses?
Because the owners want a bigger slice off the top before they start sharing. If the players don't ask for this now, what stops the owners later saying we need $7B of the $9B off the top? Where does it end for the players. The players said all along that maybe this makes sense. But show us WHY we need to give an extra billion a year. The very fact that the owners decreased their demand to $500K a year makes this smell even worse. Is there a reason to give the carve out or not? To the players credit, they have been asking for this info for a long, long time.
Do you believe that there's any chance, even if given every piece of financial information that they requested, that the union would announce that the owners are correct in asking to take 2 billion of the top? I don't think that's going to happen even if the owners did have cause.What about the charge that the union has changed what they were asking for, and that nothing the owners provide is enough?

 
Good Posting - David the opening of the books is just a red herring. David Stearn stated when the NBA union requested the opening of their books and they did, it was not enough and they dissected everything in the books. Having been a union negotiator twice for different teacher's union, the school had their books open to the public. It did not help our position or negotiations at all, but it was something the National Organization assistant kept wanting us to focus on. But it was amazing how much the union and the members spent time pointing fingers at this expense or that expense. Somewhere along the way the union mentality feels they have a right to investigate all parts of how a business runs.

I am sure the Union wants this for them to be able to drive a wedge between the owners themselves.

 
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Do you believe that there's any chance, even if given every piece of financial information that they requested, that the union would announce that the owners are correct in asking to take 2 billion of the top? I don't think that's going to happen even if the owners did have cause.What about the charge that the union has changed what they were asking for, and that nothing the owners provide is enough?
Here's the thing. Unions fight hard to secure rights. It takes something extraordinary for them to give up what they fought for. Sure it's easy to bash a union, etc, but we all do the same. If you make $75K this year and your boss now asked you to take a cut to $55K a year, you wouldn't just say OK. You would ask why. And even if the reason totally made sense, you still might not agree with it.The teams made money. Virtually all of them. Collectively the gains were substantial. And their teams if sold are worth fortunes as they continue to rise by roughly 10% a year. So by virtually every measure available, the current CBA worked. The owners collectively wanted more. That was their right and they have opted out.The owners laid out what they wanted, but the players kept coming back to the same info. Why should we offer more? Show us where you are losing money? Show us that the TV deals are decreasing?, etc. And even in the stuff the teams presented (that likely threw extra things in the cost umbrella), the teams could not show where they needed that money. In fact the owners came off their demands and offered to only take $500M a year instead. So back to you boss saying that he can ONLY pay you $55K or he has to let you go. You say I guess I am leaving. And in the 11th hour offers you $65K to stay. Aren't you going to be a bit skeptical as he said he couldn't pay you a cent over $55K before, but now is willing to give you more. The owners had a deal. They did not need to blow this up. They chose to blow it up because they felt they had secured the TV money (guaranteed even in a lockout) and with that could outlast the players (who have short careers anyway). When that part of their plan backfired, I really think they were convinced that the players would jump at what they finally offered them. But from the players prospective, this deal looks like it costs the owners close to what the current deal is. And fresh off a Doty court victory, I think they feel like the anti-trust stuff will scare the owners into an even better deal by going that route.It's a high-speed game of chicken. I expect the last deal offered by the NFL to be something close to what gets signed, but there will be additional concessions for the players. And they will get those by taking the NFL to court over anti-trust issues.
 
'JamesTheScot said:
'Insomniac said:
'Bezzerck said:
WIth the CFL, arena Football and other professional football leagues around, can't the antitrust suit be avoided by the NFL by showing the court that there are other professional leagues and jobs ofr the players that are claiming that the NFL is conspiring to prevent these players from marketing their services?This seems like a legitimate argument to me. Anyone else?
The total revenue of the CFL,UFL and arena football can't be more than 5-10% of the NFL's revenue. There were other oil companies when Standard Oil was broken up. There were other computer companies when IBM faced an anti-trust suit 30+ years ago. I can come up with other examples. There's no doubt that the NFL will make that argument in whatever court they end up in but if their lawyers are counting on it being a winning argument the NFL owners should get some better lawyers.
But anti-trust is there to protect the consumer. Oil and phone companies sit squarely in the arena of public welfare and security.The NFL is an entertainment medium. What I know about anti-trust you could fit in a thimble. But it seems to me that an entertainment enterprise isn't as important as oil and utility companies are when it comes to protecting the consumer from market manipulation. We all have to buy gas and use the phone. Watch football on Sundays? Meh.And given that NFL salaries absolutely smoke the CFL and competitors, breaking up the NFL might actually shrink player salaries over all. Or imagine the courts going the opposite way and ruling that the NFL has to accept additional teams over an above the current 32 frachises.
Your argument is false. Anti-trust law also protects employees from anti-competitive behavior by business owners not just consumers. Most business owners would welcome having their employee union dissolve. The NFL owners are going to court to permanently require the NFL players to be in a union because that benefits the owners? Even the ultra right wing Supreme Court Justices aren't going to buy that.
 
I think the owners don't want the books released because all it takes is to see what one owner does to make money and the others don't. Ie stadium naming. If the Cowboys get $10M a year (I don't know the numbers, just stating as an example), but 6 other teams choose not to name their stadium, shouldn't these owners have to name their stadiums before the players give money back?

The biggest question is this:

- There is already a billion dollar a year carve out. Obviously in the last CBA, you stated what that was for. Show us those expenses. Show us why as owners you need more than a billion off the top to deal with these "owner" issues. Outside of making your case for that, we have to believe the $1B is sufficient as you have not demonstrated that it is not.

I think we know the $1B is likely sufficient today. Maybe it won't be in the future. Maybe the owners just feel they should get a bigger piece of this pie, etc. But unlike hockey, the NFL is doing great financially. So expecting the players to give back what they fought for with essentially no justification was and is silly. It was never going to happen. So in that regard, it's probably better that the negotiations halted. The courts will force the next steps. Unfortunately as fans, we may very well end up with a product that we are noticeably less excited about.

 
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'David Dodds said:
Are the owners really going to want to battle their star players in court? No way can the NFL let this happen. There is a reason the last owner offer was the best. If this goes to court, the owners piss off a ton of fans and would have to battle against the star players they need winning them games. This really has the makings of a first-class train wreck.
DD, I don't think the fans will universally side with the players . To the people who don't understand all the anti-trust issues, to some it may appear that the players took their ball and went home. Some fans will side with the players, some with will side with the owners, and some will put a pox on both their houses. (I am in the third category myself). These are very complex legal issues.
 
'David Dodds said:
... I think football will definitely be played even without a union. But unless the owners get a deal where the union agrees to call off the dogs, I think the NFL we knew is going to be gone. There will still be teams and players, but there will be a handful of super-franchises that are always in the hunt for the championships.
I think this every serious football fans greatest fear.
 
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'David Dodds said:
... I think football will definitely be played even without a union. But unless the owners get a deal where the union agrees to call off the dogs, I think the NFL we knew is going to be gone. There will still be teams and players, but there will be a handful of super-franchises that are always in the hunt for the championships.
I think this every serious football fans greatest fear.
then alot of people will top caring just like baseball
 
...I think it also underlines the main reason why the NFL doesn't want to release their financial information. It would have led to the players arguing that the best way for the Bills, Jaguars, Raiders, et al. to not lose money is to increase revenue sharing since the Cowboys, Patriots, Redskins are raking in HUGE profits. But Jerry Jones was the loudest voice against revenue sharing. He wants to keep every single penny he creates in revenue, and thinks of the small revenue teams as being lazy and unworthy of his support.
More :goodposting:The Jerry Jones' and the Daniel Snyder's of the league may be the death of the league as we know it. A-holes, the both of the them.
 
... To the players credit, they have been asking for this info for a long, long time.
I have a question about this. Is there a way that the owners open their books to the NFLPA with a guarantee(punishable by huge financial consequences) that the NFLPA will not reveal this info to the public? I realize your point, but it is possible the players are not so innocent in this if all they want to do is use this as a marketing tool to the public that the Cowboys made an obscene profit this year? If I am an owner, I would be glad to share private information with the players as long as they keep it private. Numbers are constantly twisted and it is possible the players motives here are not pure.
 
On the fence before, but I'm now firmly behind the owners
Seriously. How on earth can you not be with what transpired today?
Ditto :thumbup: , I'm on the side of the owners. I think the owners came back with a pretty good deal today and it may have not been perfect, but that's what negotiation is all about. I honestly think Demaurice Smith had no intention of negotiating a deal, just trying to bide time to gain support for the union. :football:
 
...

Here's the thing. Unions fight hard to secure rights. It takes something extraordinary for them to give up what they fought for. Sure it's easy to bash a union, etc, but we all do the same. If you make $75K this year and your boss now asked you to take a cut to $55K a year, you wouldn't just say OK. You would ask why. And even if the reason totally made sense, you still might not agree with it.

...
Respectfully, DD, this is not what the owners did AFAIK. They wanted to take some money off the top and lower the percentage, but is has not been shown that the overall money to the player pool would shrink because the pie is growing every year. The salary cap has expanded every year since implemented and there every indication it would grow again in 2011. So, even though the percentages were being changed, were there any hard calculations that less actual money would be allocated to the salary cap in 2011 if the owners requests were granted? If not, then all that playing with percentages is just meaningless PR. Also, if it was the case, the union could clearly spell out that (the following numbers are for illustration purposes only) and there was no salary cap in 2010) "if we take this deal, then the players had a salary cap of $110 million in 2009 and it would drop to $100 million in 2011". Since the players never put out any hard numbers like this, which if true would support your example and swung much of public opinion to their side, I conclude that no such contraction of the salary cap would take place. I think the opposite is true, that even with the union accepting the owner demands, the salary cap in 2011 would have increased over 2009, though the increase was probably smaller than in previous years. But nonetheless, it would still be an increase.And that seems to me to be the bottom line...in the owners proposal, would the salary cap in 2011 be greater than 2009, equal to 2009, or less than 2009? Only if it is less than 2009 does your example apply and give the players the higher moral ground. But if either of the first two apply, it seems to me the moral ground(at least on these minor quibbles) goes to the owners.

 
As of now there in no NFL players union. The union has disbanded.Does that mean the owners can impose any kind of working agreement they want for their employees??
As long as it's legal.
so since the contracts are not guaranteed why not cut everyone and just collude and pay every player like 60k? Players dont really have a right to anything imo, most players cycle in and out of the league so fast.
Because collusion would trigger the anti-trust slap.But you can guarantee there will be no old player pension/health insurance fund if 32x53 players are having to negotiate as single entities with ownership. What player is going to go to the mat for anyone other than himself with no league-wide uniform collective bargaining contract structure? Decertification may avoid a lock-out, but it is not all roses for the players. What happens when owners require covenants not to compete to be included in these contracts? Or simply bargain for perpetual extension rights?
 
'JamesTheScot said:
'Insomniac said:
'Bezzerck said:
WIth the CFL, arena Football and other professional football leagues around, can't the antitrust suit be avoided by the NFL by showing the court that there are other professional leagues and jobs ofr the players that are claiming that the NFL is conspiring to prevent these players from marketing their services?

This seems like a legitimate argument to me. Anyone else?
The total revenue of the CFL,UFL and arena football can't be more than 5-10% of the NFL's revenue. There were other oil companies when Standard Oil was broken up. There were other computer companies when IBM faced an anti-trust suit 30+ years ago. I can come up with other examples. There's no doubt that the NFL will make that argument in whatever court they end up in but if their lawyers are counting on it being a winning argument the NFL owners should get some better lawyers.
But anti-trust is there to protect the consumer. Oil and phone companies sit squarely in the arena of public welfare and security.The NFL is an entertainment medium. What I know about anti-trust you could fit in a thimble. But it seems to me that an entertainment enterprise isn't as important as oil and utility companies are when it comes to protecting the consumer from market manipulation. We all have to buy gas and use the phone. Watch football on Sundays? Meh.

And given that NFL salaries absolutely smoke the CFL and competitors, breaking up the NFL might actually shrink player salaries over all. Or imagine the courts going the opposite way and ruling that the NFL has to accept additional teams over an above the current 32 frachises.
Your argument is false. Anti-trust law also protects employees from anti-competitive behavior by business owners not just consumers.

Most business owners would welcome having their employee union dissolve. The NFL owners are going to court to permanently require the NFL players to be in a union because that benefits the owners? Even the ultra right wing Supreme Court Justices aren't going to buy that.
Think again.

The .gov broke up Ma Bell to protect its employees?

They've been watching Microsoft and swordrattling at these huge media mergers in recent years because they want to protect those companies' employees?

Sure, employees get some protection through anti-trust. But the public at large, the consumer, is who anti-trust intends to protect.

 
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...

Here's the thing. Unions fight hard to secure rights. It takes something extraordinary for them to give up what they fought for. Sure it's easy to bash a union, etc, but we all do the same. If you make $75K this year and your boss now asked you to take a cut to $55K a year, you wouldn't just say OK. You would ask why. And even if the reason totally made sense, you still might not agree with it.

...
Respectfully, DD, this is not what the owners did AFAIK. They wanted to take some money off the top and lower the percentage, but is has not been shown that the overall money to the player pool would shrink because the pie is growing every year. The salary cap has expanded every year since implemented and there every indication it would grow again in 2011. So, even though the percentages were being changed, were there any hard calculations that less actual money would be allocated to the salary cap in 2011 if the owners requests were granted? If not, then all that playing with percentages is just meaningless PR. Also, if it was the case, the union could clearly spell out that (the following numbers are for illustration purposes only) and there was no salary cap in 2010) "if we take this deal, then the players had a salary cap of $110 million in 2009 and it would drop to $100 million in 2011". Since the players never put out any hard numbers like this, which if true would support your example and swung much of public opinion to their side, I conclude that no such contraction of the salary cap would take place. I think the opposite is true, that even with the union accepting the owner demands, the salary cap in 2011 would have increased over 2009, though the increase was probably smaller than in previous years. But nonetheless, it would still be an increase.And that seems to me to be the bottom line...in the owners proposal, would the salary cap in 2011 be greater than 2009, equal to 2009, or less than 2009? Only if it is less than 2009 does your example apply and give the players the higher moral ground. But if either of the first two apply, it seems to me the moral ground(at least on these minor quibbles) goes to the owners.
The owners' initial proposal ($2B off the top and 50/50 split of the remainder) would definitely have been a lower salary cap in '11 from what was there in '09, even taking into consideration revenue growth of ~ $1.2B over those two years.The final proposal that is being reported today would have had a higher salary cap, but we don't know how accurate that proposal actually is.

 
On the fence before, but I'm now firmly behind the owners
Seriously. How on earth can you not be with what transpired today?
Ditto :thumbup: , I'm on the side of the owners. I think the owners came back with a pretty good deal today and it may have not been perfect, but that's what negotiation is all about. I honestly think Demaurice Smith had no intention of negotiating a deal, just trying to bide time to gain support for the union. :football:
Well, he failed in gaining support for the union. Everyone should see them now as a smarmy collection of lemmings. The owners made sufficient concessions AND agreed to open up the 5-year financials. The players wanted no part of striking a deal--they fully, and ultimately dishonestly, intended only to litigate. They never wanted to negotiate. That is the only reasonable conclusion to draw from today's events.
 
...The owners' initial proposal ($2B off the top and 50/50 split of the remainder) would definitely have been a lower salary cap in '11 from what was there in '09, even taking into consideration revenue growth of ~ $1.2B over those two years.The final proposal that is being reported today would have had a higher salary cap, but we don't know how accurate that proposal actually is.
OC, didn't the owners modify the 50/50 split, even before today? Either way, do you have the numbers for the salary cap in 2009 and 2011 with the owners' initial proposal?
 
...

The owners' initial proposal ($2B off the top and 50/50 split of the remainder) would definitely have been a lower salary cap in '11 from what was there in '09, even taking into consideration revenue growth of ~ $1.2B over those two years.

The final proposal that is being reported today would have had a higher salary cap, but we don't know how accurate that proposal actually is.
OC, didn't the owners modify the 50/50 split, even before today? Either way, do you have the numbers for the salary cap in 2009 and 2011 with the owners' initial proposal?
I've done quite a bit of work in estimating the league costs, revenue figures, etc. over the past month. Unfortunately, its on my work computer. Let me do a quick rehash off the top of my head (so long as you don't hold me to its absolute accuracy).In '09, the cap was $128M. That's for salaries only, and does not include player benefits (which is part of the revenue split). However, that number was bumped up significantly because the teams hadn't spent anywhere close to the amount they were supposed to the year before and so the cap number was adjusted upwards. The actual pre-adjustment amount was $123M, which was calculated based on the projected revenue split under the terms of the CBA.

Based on a projected revenue amount of $9.3B in 2011, minus $2B off the top, split 50/50, and then divide by 32, you get a salary cap + player benefits of $114M per team.

That's a pay cut.

The latest proposal claims to have "split the difference" between the last official NFL proposal and the NFLPA's proposal. That's been reported as being just a $325M difference, but from what? We don't really know what those last proposals were exactly. Was the $325M difference about what's taken off the top? Was it from the revenue split? Or some combination of the two?

We do know that the NFL says it had agreed to a cap of $161M per club for the 2014 season. I missed that it was the 2014 season, and not the 2011 season, when I first saw it and made my earlier post. Supposedly that would have included an 18 game season, so I don't have any way of figuring out what kind of revenue projection they were using for that. It looks as though player benefits were significantly expanded under this proposal as well, and we don't know how much that costs. And therefore we cannot work backwards from there to figure out the percentage split. We do know that this is a $16M per team increase in the cap over a 5-year period. The more I look at it, the more confident I am that even in their latest proposal, the NFL was asking the players to take a pay cut in 2011 from the 2009 levels.

 
...

Here's the thing. Unions fight hard to secure rights. It takes something extraordinary for them to give up what they fought for. Sure it's easy to bash a union, etc, but we all do the same. If you make $75K this year and your boss now asked you to take a cut to $55K a year, you wouldn't just say OK. You would ask why. And even if the reason totally made sense, you still might not agree with it.

...
Respectfully, DD, this is not what the owners did AFAIK. They wanted to take some money off the top and lower the percentage, but is has not been shown that the overall money to the player pool would shrink because the pie is growing every year. The salary cap has expanded every year since implemented and there every indication it would grow again in 2011. So, even though the percentages were being changed, were there any hard calculations that less actual money would be allocated to the salary cap in 2011 if the owners requests were granted? If not, then all that playing with percentages is just meaningless PR. Also, if it was the case, the union could clearly spell out that (the following numbers are for illustration purposes only) and there was no salary cap in 2010) "if we take this deal, then the players had a salary cap of $110 million in 2009 and it would drop to $100 million in 2011". Since the players never put out any hard numbers like this, which if true would support your example and swung much of public opinion to their side, I conclude that no such contraction of the salary cap would take place. I think the opposite is true, that even with the union accepting the owner demands, the salary cap in 2011 would have increased over 2009, though the increase was probably smaller than in previous years. But nonetheless, it would still be an increase.And that seems to me to be the bottom line...in the owners proposal, would the salary cap in 2011 be greater than 2009, equal to 2009, or less than 2009? Only if it is less than 2009 does your example apply and give the players the higher moral ground. But if either of the first two apply, it seems to me the moral ground(at least on these minor quibbles) goes to the owners.
The league states they have just had their best financial year ever. And because of that, the owners need the players to give an extra Billion $ off the top to the owners. This was and is the owner's position. They feel it's their teams and they now hate the deal they signed even though they are getting rich off of it too.

The owners chose to blow up the existing deal where they saw the NFL overtake baseball and become the #1 sport. As fans, I agree we all like the salary cap, restricted free agents, NFL draft, parity among clubs, etc. Those are the things that make this sport awesome. So I get where a lot of people are against the players because this nuclear option to decertify likely changes the very aspects we all like. But what did the owners expect the results to be?

If you worked at a company and on your sweat and hard work, the company made the most money ever, would you expect to make 20% less the next year? That's what the owners expected the players to say yes to. The players did not ask for anything more. They were content with the deal where both sides made a lot of money. The owners wanted more money. They are the guilty party here in blowing up the league that we liked. I have suspected that some of the owners wanted this verdict all along though. Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder want to have teams better than the rest of the league. Parity be damned.

The owners pushed the button to end the current deal. They offered a horrible deal to the players in return. The players basically refused to listen until the owners showed why a new deal was even needed. Show us the expenses that need this carve out. The owners refused and finally sweetened their bad offer with no justification. Backs against the wall, the players quit negotiating and filed to blow up the league. If the owners really want to save football, then just agree to play out the last two years of the deal they nearly unanimously loved when they signed it and continue to work towards a real deal when the first one should have expired. Else take a chance in courts where the game we love is surely the loser.

 
So how does a league broken up by anti-trust issues even go about creating a schedule?

Seems like the NFL needs to form a single company and implement a salary sturcture much like Microsoft would.

 
So how does a league broken up by anti-trust issues even go about creating a schedule?Seems like the NFL needs to form a single company and implement a salary structure much like Microsoft would.
MLS Soccer does something like this I think. It does seem stupid that the NFL bids against the NFL pushing salaries higher and higher. But do you really thing the big market teams would ever agree to something like this?
 
Why are you guys on the owners sides when they wouldn't open the books?

Why is their greed the players problem?

What exactly do the owners offer deserve 50 percent of the revenue in the first place? Which, the players PR battle has totally muffed, since, if we are figuring the billion "off the top" as a given looks like this to me:

9 billion

- 1 billion off the top

__________________

8 billion

Which is basically split 40-60, so the owners get 3.2 billion vs the players 4.8 billion. But when its said in done, throw that first billion back on top, 4.2 billion vs. 4.8 billion. Or roughly a split of 53-47 for the players.

Which becomes

9 billion

- 2 billion off the top

________________________

7 billion.

Divided 50/50. Players 3.5 billion, owners 3.5 billion. But then we throw that 2 billion back on top, 5.5 billion vs. 3.5 billion. Or better stated a 61-39 split FOR THE OWNERS

The players don't frame it this way, by allowing the casually small 1 or 2 billion "off the top" to be bandied, you lose the PR battle.

Frankly, I don't see how ANY of you guys can defend the owners. What exactly do they bring to the table but higher cost for us? They bleed every last nickel out of the fan, have cost assurances in the way of the cap and basically have their own printing presses of money. And still, through all that, some of these guys can't figure out how to make money. Thats their problem, not mine, and certainly not the players.

I have never paid to see, nor put on my television to see an owner DO ANYTHING.

 
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On the fence before, but I'm now firmly behind the owners
Seriously. How on earth can you not be with what transpired today?
Ditto :thumbup: , I'm on the side of the owners. I think the owners came back with a pretty good deal today and it may have not been perfect, but that's what negotiation is all about. I honestly think Demaurice Smith had no intention of negotiating a deal, just trying to bide time to gain support for the union. :football:
Well, he failed in gaining support for the union. Everyone should see them now as a smarmy collection of lemmings. The owners made sufficient concessions AND agreed to open up the 5-year financials. The players wanted no part of striking a deal--they fully, and ultimately dishonestly, intended only to litigate. They never wanted to negotiate. That is the only reasonable conclusion to draw from today's events.
The owners placed in their contract the ability to have bunches of funds when THEY locked out the players. All of sudden those upstanding human beings now want a deal when they don't have financial protection. Basically, once the owner acted in that way, they showed the players that they can't just be trusted when they say the lesser profits will eventually catch up to multiple teams. Honestly once the Upshaw/Taglibue (sp) era ended, both sides executed strategies that were more about their side winning the next bargaining agreement versus placing priority on getting a deal that's fair for both parties which would give fans the full enjoyment of both the off-season and regular season. Once the players went with an outsider whose strength is judicial and political stroke versus a reputation as a skilled bargain maker and the owners all agreed to cancel the last CBA, today was more probable than not. Not asking asking either side to take it from the other, just asking both sides to not be of the mindset I am not going to take a deal unless I stick it to the other side. If the sides cared about the "fans," these things would never come down to the last hour. The only news would be some weird, random announce of 4 year extension of the CBA would happen long before the contreact expired. Both are to blame since the long-term idea of either was not a true let's get this thing done appraoch.
 
...

Here's the thing. Unions fight hard to secure rights. It takes something extraordinary for them to give up what they fought for. Sure it's easy to bash a union, etc, but we all do the same. If you make $75K this year and your boss now asked you to take a cut to $55K a year, you wouldn't just say OK. You would ask why. And even if the reason totally made sense, you still might not agree with it.

...
Respectfully, DD, this is not what the owners did AFAIK. They wanted to take some money off the top and lower the percentage, but is has not been shown that the overall money to the player pool would shrink because the pie is growing every year. The salary cap has expanded every year since implemented and there every indication it would grow again in 2011. So, even though the percentages were being changed, were there any hard calculations that less actual money would be allocated to the salary cap in 2011 if the owners requests were granted? If not, then all that playing with percentages is just meaningless PR. Also, if it was the case, the union could clearly spell out that (the following numbers are for illustration purposes only) and there was no salary cap in 2010) "if we take this deal, then the players had a salary cap of $110 million in 2009 and it would drop to $100 million in 2011". Since the players never put out any hard numbers like this, which if true would support your example and swung much of public opinion to their side, I conclude that no such contraction of the salary cap would take place. I think the opposite is true, that even with the union accepting the owner demands, the salary cap in 2011 would have increased over 2009, though the increase was probably smaller than in previous years. But nonetheless, it would still be an increase.And that seems to me to be the bottom line...in the owners proposal, would the salary cap in 2011 be greater than 2009, equal to 2009, or less than 2009? Only if it is less than 2009 does your example apply and give the players the higher moral ground. But if either of the first two apply, it seems to me the moral ground(at least on these minor quibbles) goes to the owners.
The league states they have just had their best financial year ever. And because of that, the owners need the players to give an extra Billion $ off the top to the owners. This was and is the owner's position. They feel it's their teams and they now hate the deal they signed even though they are getting rich off of it too.

The owners chose to blow up the existing deal where they saw the NFL overtake baseball and become the #1 sport. As fans, I agree we all like the salary cap, restricted free agents, NFL draft, parity among clubs, etc. Those are the things that make this sport awesome. So I get where a lot of people are against the players because this nuclear option to decertify likely changes the very aspects we all like. But what did the owners expect the results to be?

If you worked at a company and on your sweat and hard work, the company made the most money ever, would you expect to make 20% less the next year? That's what the owners expected the players to say yes to. The players did not ask for anything more. They were content with the deal where both sides made a lot of money. The owners wanted more money. They are the guilty party here in blowing up the league that we liked. I have suspected that some of the owners wanted this verdict all along though. Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder want to have teams better than the rest of the league. Parity be damned.

The owners pushed the button to end the current deal. They offered a horrible deal to the players in return. The players basically refused to listen until the owners showed why a new deal was even needed. Show us the expenses that need this carve out. The owners refused and finally sweetened their bad offer with no justification. Backs against the wall, the players quit negotiating and filed to blow up the league. If the owners really want to save football, then just agree to play out the last two years of the deal they nearly unanimously loved when they signed it and continue to work towards a real deal when the first one should have expired. Else take a chance in courts where the game we love is surely the loser.
First of all, if my company sales were up but expenses were up and the shareholders weren't making money, I'd expect a pay cut. Futhermore, if my division in Buffalo was losing money I'd expect to lose my job.Once upon a time Footballguys didn't charge for content and sold thongs and tee shirts, the model changed. Once up a time their wasn't advertising on the messageboards, the model changed. This all occurred during a period of time when traffic on this site was up. Footballguys unanimously love the models at the time. So why can the owner's of Footballguys opt out of the current model they no longer find attractive but the NFL can't? I seem to remember a lot of people saying that FBG changing to pay content would never work and the greedy owners would destory the site. Doesn't seem to have worked out that way?

 
So how does a league broken up by anti-trust issues even go about creating a schedule?Seems like the NFL needs to form a single company and implement a salary structure much like Microsoft would.
MLS Soccer does something like this I think. It does seem stupid that the NFL bids against the NFL pushing salaries higher and higher. But do you really thing the big market teams would ever agree to something like this?
Maybe when teams like Buffalo require 90% of the gate and TV revenue to travel to Dallas it evens out. Jerry could spend 10x more on salaries but would have a hard time making the playoffs when he only has five teams on his schedule.
 
So how does a league broken up by anti-trust issues even go about creating a schedule?Seems like the NFL needs to form a single company and implement a salary structure much like Microsoft would.
MLS Soccer does something like this I think. It does seem stupid that the NFL bids against the NFL pushing salaries higher and higher. But do you really thing the big market teams would ever agree to something like this?
They could create an arrangement where each team was a wholly owned subsidiary of the league, but where the person in charge of the subsidiary (Jerry Jones, e.g.) had a compensation package tied into revenue they brought in that would mimic the current incentives for 32 separately owned organizations. The only problems with this structure that I can see are 1: potential Department of Justice denial of this reorganization as the formation of a monopoly; and 2: the perception of the teams no longer competing against each other leading to the possibility of "fixing" the game results.One of my law professors thought #2 was a very big deal, but I disagreed. People still follow MLS and root for their teams, even though it is just one organization.
 
Why are you guys on the owners sides when they wouldn't open the books?

Why is their greed the players problem?

What exactly do the owners offer deserve 50 percent of the revenue in the first place? Which, the players PR battle has totally muffed, since, if we are figuring the billion "off the top" as a given looks like this to me:

9 billion

- 1 billion off the top

__________________

8 billion

Which is basically split 40-60, so the owners get 3.2 billion vs the players 4.8 billion. But when its said in done, throw that first billion back on top, 4.2 billion vs. 4.8 billion.

Which becomes

9 billion

- 2 billion off the top

________________________

7 billion.

Divided 50/50. Players 3.5 billion, owners 3.5 billion. But then we throw that 2 billion back on top, 5.5 billion vs. 3.5 billion.

The players don't frame it this way, by allowing the casually small 1 or 2 billion "off the top" to be bandied, you lose the PR battle.

Frankly, I don't see how ANY of you guys can defend the owners. What exactly do they bring to the table but higher cost for us? They bleed every last nickel out of the fan, have cost assurances in the way of the cap and basically have their own printing presses of money. And still, through all that, some of these guys can't figure out how to make money. Thats their problem, not mine, and certainly not the players.

I have never paid to see, nor put on my television to see an owner DO ANYTHING.
Actually you have. The owners paid to get the palyers to the game. They paid for the coaching. They paid for the pads and uniforms. In some cases they paid for the stadium or a portion of it. They paid the taxes on the land where the game was played. They paid the vendors, the ticket agents, the security. They paid for the lights and the electricity so you could watch at night.So how often do you drive down to the local park to watch a pick up game?

 
You know what is missing in all of this? Where is OUR representation in all of this? Dang it, I want a Football Fans Association that we can all belong to and tell both parties to make a freaking deal or we lock out BOTH of them. WE are the ones with the real leverage. WE are the ones that make them deciding who gets what out of BILLIONS of dollars. The NFL, NFLPA and most of all the freaking lawyers need to remember that.

 
So how does a league broken up by anti-trust issues even go about creating a schedule?Seems like the NFL needs to form a single company and implement a salary structure much like Microsoft would.
MLS Soccer does something like this I think. It does seem stupid that the NFL bids against the NFL pushing salaries higher and higher. But do you really thing the big market teams would ever agree to something like this?
They could create an arrangement where each team was a wholly owned subsidiary of the league, but where the person in charge of the subsidiary (Jerry Jones, e.g.) had a compensation package tied into revenue they brought in that would mimic the current incentives for 32 separately owned organizations. The only problems with this structure that I can see are 1: potential Department of Justice denial of this reorganization as the formation of a monopoly; and 2: the perception of the teams no longer competing against each other leading to the possibility of "fixing" the game results.One of my law professors thought #2 was a very big deal, but I disagreed. People still follow MLS and root for their teams, even though it is just one organization.
Plus the players could still play for the CFL or pursue other work. It wouldn't be anymore of a monoply than e-bay or Microsoft.
 
...

Here's the thing. Unions fight hard to secure rights. It takes something extraordinary for them to give up what they fought for. Sure it's easy to bash a union, etc, but we all do the same. If you make $75K this year and your boss now asked you to take a cut to $55K a year, you wouldn't just say OK. You would ask why. And even if the reason totally made sense, you still might not agree with it.

...
Respectfully, DD, this is not what the owners did AFAIK. They wanted to take some money off the top and lower the percentage, but is has not been shown that the overall money to the player pool would shrink because the pie is growing every year. The salary cap has expanded every year since implemented and there every indication it would grow again in 2011. So, even though the percentages were being changed, were there any hard calculations that less actual money would be allocated to the salary cap in 2011 if the owners requests were granted? If not, then all that playing with percentages is just meaningless PR. Also, if it was the case, the union could clearly spell out that (the following numbers are for illustration purposes only) and there was no salary cap in 2010) "if we take this deal, then the players had a salary cap of $110 million in 2009 and it would drop to $100 million in 2011". Since the players never put out any hard numbers like this, which if true would support your example and swung much of public opinion to their side, I conclude that no such contraction of the salary cap would take place. I think the opposite is true, that even with the union accepting the owner demands, the salary cap in 2011 would have increased over 2009, though the increase was probably smaller than in previous years. But nonetheless, it would still be an increase.And that seems to me to be the bottom line...in the owners proposal, would the salary cap in 2011 be greater than 2009, equal to 2009, or less than 2009? Only if it is less than 2009 does your example apply and give the players the higher moral ground. But if either of the first two apply, it seems to me the moral ground(at least on these minor quibbles) goes to the owners.
The league states they have just had their best financial year ever. And because of that, the owners need the players to give an extra Billion $ off the top to the owners. This was and is the owner's position. They feel it's their teams and they now hate the deal they signed even though they are getting rich off of it too.

The owners chose to blow up the existing deal where they saw the NFL overtake baseball and become the #1 sport. As fans, I agree we all like the salary cap, restricted free agents, NFL draft, parity among clubs, etc. Those are the things that make this sport awesome. So I get where a lot of people are against the players because this nuclear option to decertify likely changes the very aspects we all like. But what did the owners expect the results to be?

If you worked at a company and on your sweat and hard work, the company made the most money ever, would you expect to make 20% less the next year? That's what the owners expected the players to say yes to. The players did not ask for anything more. They were content with the deal where both sides made a lot of money. The owners wanted more money. They are the guilty party here in blowing up the league that we liked. I have suspected that some of the owners wanted this verdict all along though. Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder want to have teams better than the rest of the league. Parity be damned.

The owners pushed the button to end the current deal. They offered a horrible deal to the players in return. The players basically refused to listen until the owners showed why a new deal was even needed. Show us the expenses that need this carve out. The owners refused and finally sweetened their bad offer with no justification. Backs against the wall, the players quit negotiating and filed to blow up the league. If the owners really want to save football, then just agree to play out the last two years of the deal they nearly unanimously loved when they signed it and continue to work towards a real deal when the first one should have expired. Else take a chance in courts where the game we love is surely the loser.
First of all, if my company sales were up but expenses were up and the shareholders weren't making money, I'd expect a pay cut. Futhermore, if my division in Buffalo was losing money I'd expect to lose my job.Once upon a time Footballguys didn't charge for content and sold thongs and tee shirts, the model changed. Once up a time their wasn't advertising on the messageboards, the model changed. This all occurred during a period of time when traffic on this site was up. Footballguys unanimously love the models at the time. So why can the owner's of Footballguys opt out of the current model they no longer find attractive but the NFL can't? I seem to remember a lot of people saying that FBG changing to pay content would never work and the greedy owners would destory the site. Doesn't seem to have worked out that way?
I don't think anyone is saying the owners can't opt out. They can and did. I am just saying they shouldn't be surprised at the outcome. In your example here, it would be like FBG making more profit and paying our workers less for what they do. Again we could do that, but workers could also leave. As for subscribers, they always can leave and some do based on price, what we create, etc. That's a dynamic we always are managing to.If the owners really have more costs that should be exempted (carved out at the top), they sure were stupid withholding that info because that was the ONLY way the NFLPA was ever going to listen. The owners basically refused to turn that over and still wanted a big carve out. That's their right, but it should not come as a shock to anyone that the NFLPA said no thanks to making a deal without such info. Their members would ask, why did you give back $400M and they would have no answer.

 
You know what is missing in all of this? Where is OUR representation in all of this? Dang it, I want a Football Fans Association that we can all belong to and tell both parties to make a freaking deal or we lock out BOTH of them. WE are the ones with the real leverage. WE are the ones that make them deciding who gets what out of BILLIONS of dollars. The NFL, NFLPA and most of all the freaking lawyers need to remember that.
It's called your wallet. I stopped watching college football bowl games outside of the championship game aka the SEC championship game.
 
Why are you guys on the owners sides when they wouldn't open the books?

Why is their greed the players problem?

What exactly do the owners offer deserve 50 percent of the revenue in the first place? Which, the players PR battle has totally muffed, since, if we are figuring the billion "off the top" as a given looks like this to me:

9 billion

- 1 billion off the top

__________________

8 billion

Which is basically split 40-60, so the owners get 3.2 billion vs the players 4.8 billion. But when its said in done, throw that first billion back on top, 4.2 billion vs. 4.8 billion.

Which becomes

9 billion

- 2 billion off the top

________________________

7 billion.

Divided 50/50. Players 3.5 billion, owners 3.5 billion. But then we throw that 2 billion back on top, 5.5 billion vs. 3.5 billion.

The players don't frame it this way, by allowing the casually small 1 or 2 billion "off the top" to be bandied, you lose the PR battle.

Frankly, I don't see how ANY of you guys can defend the owners. What exactly do they bring to the table but higher cost for us? They bleed every last nickel out of the fan, have cost assurances in the way of the cap and basically have their own printing presses of money. And still, through all that, some of these guys can't figure out how to make money. Thats their problem, not mine, and certainly not the players.

I have never paid to see, nor put on my television to see an owner DO ANYTHING.
Actually you have. The owners paid to get the palyers to the game. They paid for the coaching. They paid for the pads and uniforms. In some cases they paid for the stadium or a portion of it. They paid the taxes on the land where the game was played. They paid the vendors, the ticket agents, the security. They paid for the lights and the electricity so you could watch at night.So how often do you drive down to the local park to watch a pick up game?
And where does this revenue come from? Its not venture capital, its money you, me and every other fan brings to the table. I live in Jersey. They tore town a 33 year old perfectly good stadium to put up a stadium that is frankly panned across the board by those not in luxury boxes, and is subpar in every way. I did not tell two massively profitable teams to make their money grab to make a new stadium.

But my patronage made it possible.

As for the owners being the stagers of these productions, tell me how well the replacement games went in 1987. Its not the league, its not the uni's, its the players. Who granted, do cycle through, but quality is unmistakable.

 
I don't think anyone is saying the owners can't opt out. They can and did. I am just saying they shouldn't be surprised at the outcome. In your example here, it would be like FBG making more profit and paying our workers less for what they do. Again we could do that, but workers could also leave. As for subscribers, they always can leave and some do based on price, what we create, etc. That's a dynamic we always are managing to.If the owners really have more costs that should be exempted (carved out at the top), they sure were stupid withholding that info because that was the ONLY way the NFLPA was ever going to listen. The owners basically refused to turn that over and still wanted a big carve out. That's their right, but it should not come as a shock to anyone that the NFLPA said no thanks to making a deal without such info. Their members would ask, why did you give back $400M and they would have no answer.
Do you guys open the books to subscribers when there's a price increase? If Chase sees subscriber numbers up do you open the books when negotiating his next contract?I guess my question to you is why if being an NFL is such a great and easy gig, why hasn't other competition been successful?
 
So how does a league broken up by anti-trust issues even go about creating a schedule?

Seems like the NFL needs to form a single company and implement a salary structure much like Microsoft would.
MLS Soccer does something like this I think. It does seem stupid that the NFL bids against the NFL pushing salaries higher and higher. But do you really thing the big market teams would ever agree to something like this?
They could create an arrangement where each team was a wholly owned subsidiary of the league, but where the person in charge of the subsidiary (Jerry Jones, e.g.) had a compensation package tied into revenue they brought in that would mimic the current incentives for 32 separately owned organizations. The only problems with this structure that I can see are 1: potential Department of Justice denial of this reorganization as the formation of a monopoly; and 2: the perception of the teams no longer competing against each other leading to the possibility of "fixing" the game results.

One of my law professors thought #2 was a very big deal, but I disagreed. People still follow MLS and root for their teams, even though it is just one organization.
Plus the players could still play for the CFL or pursue other work. It wouldn't be anymore of a monoply than e-bay or Microsoft.
Microsoft wasn't a very good example.
 
Why are you guys on the owners sides when they wouldn't open the books?

Why is their greed the players problem?

What exactly do the owners offer deserve 50 percent of the revenue in the first place? Which, the players PR battle has totally muffed, since, if we are figuring the billion "off the top" as a given looks like this to me:

9 billion

- 1 billion off the top

__________________

8 billion

Which is basically split 40-60, so the owners get 3.2 billion vs the players 4.8 billion. But when its said in done, throw that first billion back on top, 4.2 billion vs. 4.8 billion.

Which becomes

9 billion

- 2 billion off the top

________________________

7 billion.

Divided 50/50. Players 3.5 billion, owners 3.5 billion. But then we throw that 2 billion back on top, 5.5 billion vs. 3.5 billion.

The players don't frame it this way, by allowing the casually small 1 or 2 billion "off the top" to be bandied, you lose the PR battle.

Frankly, I don't see how ANY of you guys can defend the owners. What exactly do they bring to the table but higher cost for us? They bleed every last nickel out of the fan, have cost assurances in the way of the cap and basically have their own printing presses of money. And still, through all that, some of these guys can't figure out how to make money. Thats their problem, not mine, and certainly not the players.

I have never paid to see, nor put on my television to see an owner DO ANYTHING.
Actually you have. The owners paid to get the palyers to the game. They paid for the coaching. They paid for the pads and uniforms. In some cases they paid for the stadium or a portion of it. They paid the taxes on the land where the game was played. They paid the vendors, the ticket agents, the security. They paid for the lights and the electricity so you could watch at night.So how often do you drive down to the local park to watch a pick up game?
And where does this revenue come from? Its not venture capital, its money you, me and every other fan brings to the table. I live in Jersey. They tore town a 33 year old perfectly good stadium to put up a stadium that is frankly panned across the board by those not in luxury boxes, and is subpar in every way. I did not tell two massively profitable teams to make their money grab to make a new stadium.

But my patronage made it possible.

As for the owners being the stagers of these productions, tell me how well the replacement games went in 1987. Its not the league, its not the uni's, its the players. Who granted, do cycle through, but quality is unmistakable.
I don't buy the last statement. First of all, college football is successful and most of those players don't make it at the next level. I honestly believe that if you got rid of every player in the NFL and starter fresh with 1600 new players that you wouldn't notice a difference in two years. The 4.5 40 players going against 4.5 40 players would look just as fast as the 4.4 players do now. There are plenty of big/fat and strong guys in this country that could play on the line.
 
Why are you guys on the owners sides when they wouldn't open the books?

Why is their greed the players problem?

What exactly do the owners offer deserve 50 percent of the revenue in the first place? Which, the players PR battle has totally muffed, since, if we are figuring the billion "off the top" as a given looks like this to me:

9 billion

- 1 billion off the top

__________________

8 billion

Which is basically split 40-60, so the owners get 3.2 billion vs the players 4.8 billion. But when its said in done, throw that first billion back on top, 4.2 billion vs. 4.8 billion.

Which becomes

9 billion

- 2 billion off the top

________________________

7 billion.

Divided 50/50. Players 3.5 billion, owners 3.5 billion. But then we throw that 2 billion back on top, 5.5 billion vs. 3.5 billion.

The players don't frame it this way, by allowing the casually small 1 or 2 billion "off the top" to be bandied, you lose the PR battle.

Frankly, I don't see how ANY of you guys can defend the owners. What exactly do they bring to the table but higher cost for us? They bleed every last nickel out of the fan, have cost assurances in the way of the cap and basically have their own printing presses of money. And still, through all that, some of these guys can't figure out how to make money. Thats their problem, not mine, and certainly not the players.

I have never paid to see, nor put on my television to see an owner DO ANYTHING.
Actually you have. The owners paid to get the palyers to the game. They paid for the coaching. They paid for the pads and uniforms. In some cases they paid for the stadium or a portion of it. They paid the taxes on the land where the game was played. They paid the vendors, the ticket agents, the security. They paid for the lights and the electricity so you could watch at night.So how often do you drive down to the local park to watch a pick up game?
And where does this revenue come from? Its not venture capital, its money you, me and every other fan brings to the table. I live in Jersey. They tore town a 33 year old perfectly good stadium to put up a stadium that is frankly panned across the board by those not in luxury boxes, and is subpar in every way. I did not tell two massively profitable teams to make their money grab to make a new stadium.

But my patronage made it possible.

As for the owners being the stagers of these productions, tell me how well the replacement games went in 1987. Its not the league, its not the uni's, its the players. Who granted, do cycle through, but quality is unmistakable.
I don't buy the last statement. First of all, college football is successful and most of those players don't make it at the next level. I honestly believe that if you got rid of every player in the NFL and starter fresh with 1600 new players that you wouldn't notice a difference in two years. The 4.5 40 players going against 4.5 40 players would look just as fast as the 4.4 players do now. There are plenty of big/fat and strong guys in this country that could play on the line.
You wonder in one post why alternate leagues have failed, but think this would work overall? If we got to the point of this thing canceling a season, you can bet there WOULD spring a viable alternative league in this country and fast from that pool of available talent. And thats where things get interesting. 4.4. vs. 4.5 guys and the relative skill IS noticable. Its why the XFL failed after a HUGE ratings start. The quality of the ball STUNK.

College is the worst example to use regarding player loyalty. Its entirely school/coach driven due to the turnover. As for why there's never been a viable alternative to the NFL, the market simply has been served by what's existed. But I would also submit, leagues have also all made the mistake of trying to grow too fast too soon.

But tell me this, if you have Dave Ragone quarterbacking for the New England Patriots versus Tom Brady quarterbacking for the Boston Stranglers in the 2012 season opener, I don't think you'll find the number of laundry rooters you expect.

 
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