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Now the DEN RB situation gets stickier (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter P Boy
- Start date
Family Matters
Footballguy
I'm not speechless. Just not allowed to say what's on my mind or I'll get kicked off these boards. LOL Seriously, couldn't see the game but clearly no Denver RB was able to run the ball. Q aside, no one was running on them today it seems. Anyone know what happened to Bell? Thought he might get some carries.
Pretty sure the baby was in street clothes nursing his little rib bruise. I know it isn't nearly as bad as it is for Griffin owners but I felt he missed a huge opportunity to stake his claim to a bunch of carries in the weeks to come. Still could happen as soon as next week but we can only speculate since you-know-who won't be at all straightforward about it.
el-gato-grande
Footballguy
Maybe Shanny should take a page from Vermeil's "How to deal with Young Player's" handbook and tell Bell to take off the diapers and get on the field.
Right now Hearst is obviously feeling his age. He has no burst, he gets tackled easily, he just doesn't offer much. I don't know if he is nursing some nagging injuries, but it's pretty obvious why a crappy team like SF decided not to make any effort to keep him onboard.Griffin? His performance speaks for itself. In Griffin's last 19 carries, he has gained exactly 8 yards rushing. During that time he has lost 2 fumbles. He is looking more & more like the change of pace RB that a few people here projected him to be. And let's not assign greatness to the SD run D please. They have been surrendering 116 ypg & 2 TD/gm rushing - and that was against HOU - the #19 rushing O in the NFL - and DET - the #27 rushing O in the NFL. SD didn't make the mistake of overpursuing - they held their lanes & responsibility & Griffin couldn't create anything at all for himself.Rueben Drougns only had 2 carries, but he was able to average 5 ypc in a single RB set on very vanilla running plays. So, Griffin's sample size keeps getting larger, and his performance is still a significant issue with its lack of productivity. Then there is the issue of 4 fumbles lost in 5 starts - for a RB who his man-lovers swear isn't a fumbler. Bell had hurt ribs and was a scratch before the game started. If he were in any way, shape, or form healthy you can bet your bottom dollar he would have seen the bulk of the carries in the 2nd half - just to see what he is capable of. He couldn't possibly have done worse than Griffin. Don't think for a minute that Shanahan isn't going to look for a solution to what is starting to grow into a serious problem. DEN is lucky they were playing a team like SD today. 2/3 of the teams in the NFL would have beaten them yesterday, and the top 10 teams would have butchered them.
rhawkins68
Footballguy
It looks like for now Griffin is the starter. The two backup back were averaged 4.6 on there 5 carries and even though they created some running room the coaches stuck with Griffin. More than likely as time goes on we'll see this become a RBBC. The only way Bell completly takes over is if Griffin continues to fumble.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
The local media is starting to circle this kid like buzzards circle roadkill. If he is reading the papers or listening to the news Griffin is hearing nothing but scathing negatives. This is the kind of thing to test one's mettle. It will be interesting to see whether he can rise to the occassion, or whether he will be crushed by the adversity.
beef
Footballguy
So, can we look back and say it was Portis and not the system like so many seem to think?
It was the system, but when you insert a talented stud like Portis, it makes it that much better.On many of Portis long runs, the system (O-Line) got him the first 5-10 yards, but it's the MAN that takes it for more.
Didn't that same guy just praise Griffin a few weeks back?Woody needs to return.
)Are you Griffin lovers on drugs?
Griffin has lost as many or more fumbles in 3 games this year than any other featured RB has in an entire season in Shanahan's HC tenure!
Do you all remember Portis his rookie year? He had that 3 fumble game in preseason? And that kept Portis on the bench for 4 weeks behind Olandis freakin' Gary during the regular season? And that Portis is way more talented than Griffin can ever dream of being?
What makes you think that if Bell is even close to being as capable as Griffin (it wouldn't take much to be more capable than 7 yards in 12 carries) that Bell wouldn't get his shot at being the lead dog? Add to that the Shanahan ego factor that he got Bell with the pick acquired in the Portis/Bailey trade, and I think that if Bell is healthy he'll get at least as much work as Griffin next game.
How many fumbles & negative yardage runs do you think Shanahan will stomach in his normally high-octane running attack?
Griffin has lost as many or more fumbles in 3 games this year than any other featured RB has in an entire season in Shanahan's HC tenure!
Do you all remember Portis his rookie year? He had that 3 fumble game in preseason? And that kept Portis on the bench for 4 weeks behind Olandis freakin' Gary during the regular season? And that Portis is way more talented than Griffin can ever dream of being?
What makes you think that if Bell is even close to being as capable as Griffin (it wouldn't take much to be more capable than 7 yards in 12 carries) that Bell wouldn't get his shot at being the lead dog? Add to that the Shanahan ego factor that he got Bell with the pick acquired in the Portis/Bailey trade, and I think that if Bell is healthy he'll get at least as much work as Griffin next game.
How many fumbles & negative yardage runs do you think Shanahan will stomach in his normally high-octane running attack?
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CaptainHucklebuck
Ancient Chinese Secret
Just to bring some of these threads together, here's a reply to Maurile Tremblay I gave in the "Shanny Supports Griffin" thread.MT - I know no one here has put any stock into the statements I made before the draft (when Shanny drafted Bell) but I have to tell you that, from my point of view, Q will seldom have running room in this offense. He is simply not tall enough to see the elbow to wrist area of the Denver O-line's arms - which keeps him from catching the flow of the holes in this Denver scheme. The reason the Denver O-Line is so dominant is that they don't give any hints/clues to the guys they're blocking by "pointing" with their feet and legs. They drive off the line with arms and upper body more than with pure foot speed and leg positioning. It's why their counters/draws/other pull-blocks work so well. A RB has to be able to see over his linemen's shoulders in order to see what's going on. That's how Portis got his chest caved in. That's why their knees keep getting torn up. That's why Q might be a brilliant back somewhere else in the league, but will simply not cut it in Denver.Q had a great game against KC this year and a great game against Indy last year. Neither of those teams have D-lines physical enough against the run to require serious hole placement adjustments. Q didn't have to see what was going on to be able to hit the hole at full burst. Anyone else, he's going to disappoint.Q's a bust for this offense, but if he gets traded will probably be a Warrick Dunn kind of guy - very productive.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
Another important angle - Shanahan is on the hot seat this year after missing the playoffs for the last several years. This year, he traded Portis for defense, which has been much improved while their run game has raised significant concerns. If there's a high profile change to make, and ownership is looking at the trade he made in the offseason, how can he NOT make this change?
Arm Chair Express
Footballguy
You know Pony, yesterday was the first chance I've really got to watch Q here in Michigan. I've always disagreed with you because your biggest arguement about Q was he is too small and I don't buy that because other small backs have had success in the NFL. After watching the game, I came to the conclusion, he's not that good! He goes down with hardly any contact at all and doesn't hit the hole with any kind of authority. Everyone was compairing him to Barry Sanders and well, I watched just about every game Barry ever played and this kid can't hold Barry's jock! As a Bronco fan myself, I say enough is enough. When Bell is able, I'm thinking its time to see what he has.
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Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
You mean for not winning a playoff game the last several years (since Elway left, maybe?) - they were in the playoffs last year, and I think they were in four years ago.Shanahan is not on any hot seat - I think he has a sweet deal where he can not be fired without a huge payout - at least not until 2006 or 2007 or something.Q ran horribly yesterday. And he laid the ball on the carpet. His time is running short.The thing I took from the scathing article linked above is the 3 fumbles = 17 opponent points. That si simply intolerable from Mike Shanahan's perspective.
So.... It's mid-day on Monday. Where's the pack of sharks that tear into me everytime I mention anything remotely negative about Griffin?Hey, how about some discussion now, gents:bigbrownbagGoNadsSonny Lubick Blowup DollmbuehnerOU KurtBingoBrownwadegarrettIron Farat least Family Matters has shown some sack and admitted that he has some reservations. More than I can say about the rest of the attack pack.
I went for a few players (Quentin, Chris Brown, B.Lloyd) in a couple of my leagues that people love to argue about on this site. I've given up on Lloyd but I still believe in Q. Way too early to call him a bust. I've been doing this fantasy stuff too long to fall for a bad week or two from a guy that fast on an offense with that kind of history running the ball. Yes, if he keeps fumbling every game it's over and next week is gonna be tough against the Tampa D but I'd go so far as to say that NOW is the time to trade FOR Q.
MSULions
Footballguy
I have Tatum in my survivor league, and with SA going on a bye this week and S. Davis out I absolutely need him to get in there and get me a few points. All I can say is that Qs fumble was one of the more pathetic i've ever seen....someone just reached out and barely got a hand on the ball and it came flying out. That's not good. He doesn't look like an NFL back, period.
GoNads
Footballguy
I am busy at work today, Pony, and that's the reason for the silence so far. Speaking of having sack, I don't recall you chiming in on the thread that came out on Friday about Tinker Bell being hurt; you and all Bell supporters got called out on that one but never showed up.
(I was dying to use this one).Back to topic, I don't have time right now (plus, the site is extremely slow right now) to search my postings, but you are wrong in referring to me as one who would bash you when you said anything remotely negative about Griffin.Yes, I am a Q owner and (as stated in one my postings) drafted him recognizing the gamble involved. I never said that it was unimaginable that Bell could take the job away from him; what I always took issue with were your statistically offensive assertions that he was one of the worst backs in Broncos history based on a 3 game sample size and anybody's assertions that Bell was FOR SURE going to take the job away from Q as if they had heard it from Shannahan himself.I am less confident and encouraged now than I was last week, but there's still a lot of football left. Tatum has yet to prove that he can stay healthy (which, by the way, was supposed to be a knock on Q), and Q has to conitnue to struggle (as he has during the past 2 games). We will see what happens...
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bostonfred2
Footballguy
I agree, especially if you already have Bell. Even if you have neither, I'd look to acquire both backs right now - your chance to get Bell is getting worse, and your chance to get Griffin is getting better. If you've been picking up the guy with the lowest trade value each week, as I've been suggesting, you could easily have bought up the Denver running game at $.50 on the dollar. If the guy with Griffin also has Bell, he might be willing to trade both of them cheaper this week than the last couple weeks, after watching that combo stink it up since the KC game.
hxperson
Footballguy
LOL...you are calling out Pony's "inaccuracies", but being inaccurate in doing so. I've been a follower of this debate for a while, and IIRC, I haven't seen Pony state that he thinks Bell will be the man. He has only argued that he thinks Griffin won't be the man, and that Bell and the other Bronco RB's will get a shot.I am busy at work today, Pony, and that's the reason for the silence so far. Speaking of having sack, I don't recall you chiming in on the thread that came out on Friday about Tinker Bell being hurt; you and all Bell supporters got called out on that one but never showed up.
Family Matters
Footballguy
Pony-calling people out might leave you with egg on your face. First off, you shouldn't be calling anyone out. Q hasn't lost much support yet except for those Bell owners wishing Griff fails. Secondly, Griff is still the starter last I checked. Until that changes, if that changes, I wouldn't be so bold as to predict Bell's success. Lastly, Bell has proved 1 thing so far, he can't stay healty long enough to see if he can carry the load.Frankly, I wouldn't be too excited about Bell at this point. When he gets healthy and can stay healthy and if he gets an opportunity to play more we'll see what he's made of. So far he has shown nothing positive.
GoNads
Footballguy
You might want to read my post again.Where did I say that Pony stated that Bell would be the man? I specifically reiterated how silly I thought Pony's 3 game sample size was, and that I disagreed with ANYBODY (is that Pony's real name? Anybody?) who claimed that Bell was FOR SURE going to be the starter.In other words, you are wrong.LOL...you are calling out Pony's "inaccuracies", but being inaccurate in doing so. I've been a follower of this debate for a while, and IIRC, I haven't seen Pony state that he thinks Bell will be the man. He has only argued that he thinks Griffin won't be the man, and that Bell and the other Bronco RB's will get a shot.I am busy at work today, Pony, and that's the reason for the silence so far. Speaking of having sack, I don't recall you chiming in on the thread that came out on Friday about Tinker Bell being hurt; you and all Bell supporters got called out on that one but never showed up.
What? I'm supposed to respond to Bell having hurt ribs? Okay - Bell hurt his ribs. Man, that was really trying. Whew!Seriously, what is wrong with some of you guys? Is it that hard to admit that there is a possibility that you picked the wrong horse? Significant ego issues here. You know what Freud said about this kind of stuff...Speaking of having sack, I don't recall you chiming in on the thread that came out on Friday about Tinker Bell being hurt; you and all Bell supporters got called out on that one but never showed up.
Family Matters
Footballguy
Well Pony, to date, Griffin owners have picked the right horse. Bell owners have not. Of course, some picked both and will be happy either way. As for me, doesn't matter. It's just a lineup change from Griff to Bell.What? I'm supposed to respond to Bell having hurt ribs? Okay - Bell hurt his ribs. Man, that was really trying. Whew!Seriously, what is wrong with some of you guys? Is it that hard to admit that there is a possibility that you picked the wrong horse? Significant ego issues here. You know what Freud said about this kind of stuff...Speaking of having sack, I don't recall you chiming in on the thread that came out on Friday about Tinker Bell being hurt; you and all Bell supporters got called out on that one but never showed up.
And I specifically stated that it was not a 3 game sample - which you were wrong about, to which you did not reply. I haven't seen many people state "for sure" that Bell was going to be the starter. In fact the argument is that Griffin isn't a good fit for the DEN O, and therefore he won't do very well, and therefore some other RB will get a whack at being the featured RB in DEN.But hey, just keep manufaturing "facts" to boost your argument.
Unbelievable.
*Sigh*I should have known better. Griffin's past 5 quarters of football have resulted in 19 carries, 8 yards rushing, 2 lost fumbles, and the loss of a game that DEN should have won; and the Griffin man-lovers still think without any question at all that he will be the next stud RB for DEN and that Shanahan will not let any other player challenge for his position.
hxperson
Footballguy
LOL...so you called out Pony Boy in this quote here, implying that he ran and hid when Tatum Bell got hurt, yet you are saying that you didn't think Pony Boy thought Tatum Bell would be the man? If you didn't believe that Pony boy supported Bell, why would you give him a hard time about not speaking up when Bell got hurt?
Speaking of having sack, I don't recall you chiming in on the thread that came out on Friday about Tinker Bell being hurt; you and all Bell supporters got called out on that one but never showed up.
GoNads
Footballguy
You are very entertaining pony. Sometimes, you have insightful analysis that I enjoy reading (even if/when I don't necessarily agree with them). Then, some other times, you sound completely clueless as if you just smoked crack.2 points about your last post:The ribs: lovely how you selectively minimize or maximize points at the convenience of your stance. Did you even read the thread? If so, and you felt it was a non-issue, why didn't you say anything? I, for one, felt like it was interesting how Bell hurt his ribs FROM A HANDOFF (not from being hit), how he hasn't been able to stay health since joining the Broncos, not to mention the irony of how Q was supposed to be the fragile guy. I am not saying that Bell is doomed or that Q will never lose the starting job because of that, but I (and a fw others, ironically none of which were Bell lovers) felt like those issues were worth noting. Not you. Partial, maybe? No not you; never!!!The ego issues: Did you read my last post? It doesn't sound like you did the way you are spewing this ego crap, so I will yell it to you that I DRAFTED Q RECOGNIZING THE RISK INVOLVED AND NEVER THOUGHT IT WAS UNIMAGINABLE THAT BELL WOULD TAKE THE JOB AWAY FROM HIM.There, got it now?What? I'm supposed to respond to Bell having hurt ribs? Okay - Bell hurt his ribs. Man, that was really trying. Whew!Seriously, what is wrong with some of you guys? Is it that hard to admit that there is a possibility that you picked the wrong horse? Significant ego issues here. You know what Freud said about this kind of stuff...Speaking of having sack, I don't recall you chiming in on the thread that came out on Friday about Tinker Bell being hurt; you and all Bell supporters got called out on that one but never showed up.
GoNads
Footballguy
Dude, why is this so hard to understand? Let me break it down for youLOL...so you called out Pony Boy in this quote here, implying that he ran and hid when Tatum Bell got hurt, yet you are saying that you didn't think Pony Boy thought Tatum Bell would be the man? If you didn't believe that Pony boy supported Bell, why would you give him a hard time about not speaking up when Bell got hurt?Speaking of having sack, I don't recall you chiming in on the thread that came out on Friday about Tinker Bell being hurt; you and all Bell supporters got called out on that one but never showed up.
ony boy has his opinions about the whole Q vs Bell deal.I don't agree with all of his views; as a result, we have battled on some threads.
Pony Boy IS a strong Bell supporter but has stopped short of guaranteeing that Bell is going to be the starter. I never accused him of that.
That doesn't mean that I can't call him out for not showing up on the Bell injury thread or for his lack of statistical coherence.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
Please don't use terms like "none of which". I've been on the Bell side Prior to week one, I argued that Bell would take the job by midseason. My thoughts on the subject are well documented, both in the bet I made with Maurile and in the staff vs. messageboard challenge. Week one - I acknowledged that Griffin had made significant strides, but also pointed out the fourth quarter issues and key fumble, and said that Bell's chances were now between 20% and 40% of taking the job, and made my case. I was widely ridiculed for it, especially when I challenged the notion that Griffin was the next Barry Sanders. I strongly recommended people get Bell while his value was at an all time low. Week two - I pointed out the second fumble as the game progressed, and discussed how important it was in the game. After making this argument for some time, a new debate thread arose and restated the same points. I talked about the likelihood of Bell getting the job now being about 40%. I was ridiculed for comparing Griffin to Warrick Dunn instead of Barry Sanders. Now I hear that comparison repeated again. I strongly recommended people get Bell, because his value was rising, and he wouldn't be cheap anymore, although I agreed with Family Matters that it wouldn't be a bad time to trade Bell if you could get a quality player for him. I also suggested grabbing Griffin if you could get him cheaply from a scared owner. Later in the week, when Bell got hurt, I downgraded his chance of taking the job to 30%, with the caveat that I expected Griffin to have a strong performance against San Diego. Week 3 - Griffin didn't have that strong performance. I now believe Bell has a uch more significant chance of taking the job, and would ballpark those chances at about 50%. Hearst and Droughns now each have about a 10% chance. I now believe Griffin has at best a 30% chance of keeping this job till the end of the season. I now suggest trying to acquire the rest of the Denver RBs, because their combined value has not changed, but their individual values are as low as they will likely ever be. In leagues with small roster sizes, I specifically suggest acquiring Bell while he's injured and hasn't proven anything; it looks likely Shanahan will announce that he'll get playing time soon, and the moment he does, Bell's value will likely go through the roof. I'm not looking for acknowledgement of my "predictions", because I'm not trying to take a stance on an issue that's undecided. But I wanted to point out that there is another way to address these types of debates that doesn't involve calling people "Bell lovers" and "Griffin man lovers" that simply looks at an unknown situation, and instead of taking an arbitrary stand, looks at the value of each player and figures out which strategy to take based on the limited knowledge we have. If people had followed my advice, they'd be able to get Griffin at $.50 on the dollar now, and could have gotten Bell for pennies on the dollar after week 1. You can now go back to your bickering. Thank you for your attention.
GoNads
Footballguy
Bostonfred, I am going to pull a Vermeil and say that I use the term Bell lovers in jest; as a refrence to the fact that those who look at this as a Black & White situation and are on Bell's side of the fence, didn't have much to say on the thread that talked about Bell's ribs.I appreciate the fact that you look at this as a fluid situation as that's what I see as well. I just happened to have hitched my RB3 wagon to Griffin, and obviously wish that he keeps the starting gig.In spite of my wishes, however, I have not gone "out on a limb" at all regarding this issue because I believe it's foolish to do so, and I have let that opinion be clearly known.btw, I appreciate your advice, but I had already been trying to trade for Bell since the day after our draft (******* took him in round 6), but to no avail so far.I am not emotionally married to this situation, but don't like being erroneously called out; that's all.
Pigskin75
Footballguy
First, it's a shame when a valuable thread like this turns into a shouting match. It's nice to have an opinion but some in here just take it so personal. Let's all grow up, discuss the situation and try and arrive a a reasonable conclusion.All that being said I just listed to the Shanahan press conference and it seems he still has confidence in Q. He apparently has looked at the film and saw a good game plan by SD with 8 man fronts and poor blocking on Denver's part. He mentioned he saw two times where he thought Q could have gotten more than he did.
Again, this is where FBGs need to earn their money. We need information from Denver, not newspaper opinion. If a reporter knew so much about football he'd be coaching instead of plucking away at a typewriter.
We need to know who's getting the reps with the first team and if a committee is forming.
Let's be positive and share information, not bicker about Q and Bell.
Hit the nail on the head here.This reminds me of that "acclaimed" reporter from the KC Star earlier in the week saying Holmes was "definitely out".
Lame. People forget these are monkeys typing about the things that they never had the talent for and aspire to be... you know, like Elvis impersonators and such.Take reporter's opinions for what they are worth... 
If anything, Hearst has more value than Bell right now.Bell is sounding like a M. Bennett and not nearly as talented...
mnmplayer
Footballguy
Someone asked about what Shanny said in the Monday morning press conf. He indicated that no one could have run behind his Denver line that day because blocking was so poor and that Q is still his man. He said of all his carries, only 2 could have been improved upon. The others he said Q had no chance because of the poor run blocking.In response to a reporter ripping on Q he said that "Maybe SD will drop LT because he only ran for 2.6 yards per carry and that maybe Denver will pick him up next week when SD drops him." indicating that even the best RB cannot run when the line does not block well.He seemd somewhat protective of Q and said he "liked his attitude." Looks like it may not be lights out for him yet, although Shanny has been known to tell lies in the past.He also gave props to Plummer for throwing 2 TD, no picks and almost 300 yards. He mentioned that SD gave them some great passing opps and while taking away the run.I am not spinning this, just reporting what he said. I did not see the game, but it seems like SD might have leveraged a ton to stop the run and left the pass open. this is pure speculation on my part. I am a Q owner...Press is just ripping on Q and so most of this might just be shanny sticking up for him as he might any player.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
I'm not questioning this information, but if this was a morning press conference, surely it would have made an article, fanball blurb, rotonews... something? I'm expecting a week of Q, Hearst, and Bell all being used with the first team in preparation for Tampa, and I have no idea what to expect next week. If I had to guess, I expect about 28-30 carries divided pretty equally. RBBC. :(
