NYC assassination news thread - Please no politics (1 Viewer)

[Stoneworker]

The government's childhood obesity studies was sponsored by Novo Norddisk - guess what their findings were? The report stated children as young as 12 years old should start Ozempic treatments to combat obesity - no mention of diet or exercise.

Hard to have a productive conversation with someone who's posting stuff that is simply not factually correct.

Conclusions**
- Among adolescents with obesity, once-weekly treatment [with semaglutide/Ozempic] plus lifestyle intervention resulted in greater BMI than lifestyle intervention alone.

- For young people, obesity management guidelines recommend multimodal lifestyle modification.

- Semaglutide is approved...for long term weight management as an adjunct to a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity...


**New England Journal of Medicine: Semaglutide in Adolescents with Obesity

You're correct - I should have said they make it secondary to their injections.

While I appreciate the admission and don't want to drill this into the ground, even the "secondary" claim is dubious. This is quoted from Conclusions section of the adult study.

"Although lifestyle intervention (diet and exercise) represents the cornerstone of weight management, sustaining weight loss over the long term is challenging."

New England Journal of Medicine: Semaglutide in Adults

 

[mr. furley]

P.S. Jordan Love still sucks.

why you sonofa#####

 

[Max Power]

A reminder: the US has the #1 most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly #42 in life expectancy

This seems like such a simplistic and misguided view for someone who is supposedly higher on the IQ scale. Our life expectancy has a lot to do with our culture and shouldn't fall at the feet of the healthcare industry. Medical professionals are telling people every day how to live healthier, Americans just often choose not to.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

P.S. Jordan Love still sucks.

why you sonofa#####

I am joking, this is just the jealousy of a long-suffering Vikings fan bleeding through.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

The government's childhood obesity studies was sponsored by Novo Norddisk - guess what their findings were? The report stated children as young as 12 years old should start Ozempic treatments to combat obesity - no mention of diet or exercise.

Hard to have a productive conversation with someone who's posting stuff that is simply not factually correct.

Conclusions**
- Among adolescents with obesity, once-weekly treatment [with semaglutide/Ozempic] plus lifestyle intervention resulted in greater BMI than lifestyle intervention alone.

- For young people, obesity management guidelines recommend multimodal lifestyle modification.

- Semaglutide is approved...for long term weight management as an adjunct to a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity...


**New England Journal of Medicine: Semaglutide in Adolescents with Obesity

You're correct - I should have said they make it secondary to their injections.

While I appreciate the admission and don't want to drill this into the ground, even the "secondary" claim is dubious. This is quoted from Conclusions section of the adult study.

"Although lifestyle intervention (diet and exercise) represents the cornerstone of weight management, sustaining weight loss over the long term is challenging."

New England Journal of Medicine: Semaglutide in Adults

Well it wasn’t my intention to be inaccurate and I can’t be mad if corrected when I said something incorrect.

I disagree on this part - honestly Ozempic shouldn’t even be in the discussion of combating obesity - especially at such a young age.

So the underlying point remains but as I said a few times, it’s way off topic in this thread.

 

[3C's]

To all of you, I greatly appreciated this conversation. I really NEEDED this after the last week. This is where I will leave it:

Most reasonable people can agree that we do not want America to be a place where we murder people that we disagree with.

I think we can all agree that there is an opportunity for the health care to be better. Whether or not this action changes anything, I am not confident. Pitchfork Nation will move onto the next thing shortly, UHT stock will rebound, and it will most likely be business as usual. Not really sure how I feel about this as some people have made some good points about reform that is needed.

This is far from over. I am sure that there will be some Senate hearings in the next twelve months where a lot of these points will be publicly discussed.

Again, thank you for restoring my faith in this site's community. I look forward future conversations.

P.S. Jordan Love still sucks.

Come back more often. You seem well balanced and informed. Especially regarding that last part. #suckitfurley!

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Hey All, I just found this thread...had no idea this section of the site existed. Not looking to have philosophical debates, but I am more than happy to provide facts/context where I can. I am extremely close to this case in numerous ways.

Let’s hear it.

Well, I knew Brian for nearly 20 years, both personally and professionally. Maybe the single hardest working and intelligent person I have ever known. Regardless of what you hear about him, he dedicated his career, specifically the last 3 years, to making positive changes in the health care industry.

You may hear that UHC had AI bots that automatically denied claims this is not true. UHC acquired a company that did this, but this changed right away. UHC does use AI for auto-approving claims.

He, along with former CEO and current board member Steve Hemsley, were ACCUSED of insider trading. There was a large acquisition that was being held up in the courts. These executives are ALWAYS informed by the SEC, via internal counsel, when they are not allowed to sell stocks. This is not the first time C-suite level executives at UHG have been accused of this type of behavior. He was not tried, he was not allowed to answer his accusers, and he should be considered innocent.

Are you able to speak to the 2x vs other insurers denial rate that keeps getting posted?

I mean, partially, and it is not because I am being evasive, but it is not really that simple. UHC, at it's core, is a mergers and acquisitions company. They will purchase anywhere between 30-40 companies/year. These might be small 3-4 employee clinics, or the largest health care provider in Brazil, Peru, and Colombia. My point is that UHCs denials numbers could be inherited from an AE (acquired entity), regulatory requirements from local or national entities, and/or people not filling out or providing the correct information. This is not like The Rainmaker, there is no policy or AI controlled database that auto-denies every claim that comes in.

Do you think acquisition companies operating in healthcare facilitate improved patient care? Are profit-maximizing goals aligned with health outcomes?

The fact is, the healthier people are, the more money insurance companies make.

Although it may seem counter-intuitive, actually the sicker society becomes the more people need health insurance.

The insurance industry is perfectly fine with Big Pharma and our poor diet and exercise.

All I am saying is that the less an insurance company pays out (healthier people), the more money they make. It is a fact.

We can agree to disagree - as I think that's a simplistic view of it and stand by what I said.

If you were the CEO of a health insurance company, how would you tackle the obesity epidemic in America? How would you get people to eat better and exercise?

I don't believe it's up to the health insurance industry to take on that responsibility (I did not blame them for the health epidemic in this Country, what I said is they are perfectly happy for people to be sick, generally, which is fact).

Generally, a good start would be to get Big Pharma and Big AG lobbies out of our government and have our government educate the people better. The "food pyramid" is bogus, yet its still taught in schools. We market sugar bomb cereals, toaster pastries and orange juice as a healthy breakfast and "the most important meal of the day".

The government's childhood obesity studies was sponsored by Novo Norddisk - guess what their findings were? The report stated children as young as 12 years old should start Ozempic treatments to combat obesity - no mention of diet or exercise.

The diabetes study was sponsored by Coca-Cola and guess what, there's no mention about how bad soda is for you.

This is way off topic now though,

This can get way more into the Callie Means "Good Energy" area of discussion. Which I think can be useful. Although again, not sure we can keep it politics free even though I think it should be.

Although should be a different thread than this one.

It would be impossible to leave “the government” out of the discussion but it shouldn’t be “political” in that it’s not a partisan problem- it’s both parties willing to take their money - but as we all know, politics will almost certainly be dragged into it.

 

[Stoneworker]

I disagree on this part - honestly Ozempic shouldn’t even be in the discussion of combating obesity - especially at such a young age.

Yes. While I personally believe in looking at drugs as part of health treatments on a case-by-case basis, I wholeheartedly agree with the underlying philosophy of your point. And generally as it applies to other health conditions.

 

[matttyl]

Hey All, I just found this thread...had no idea this section of the site existed. Not looking to have philosophical debates, but I am more than happy to provide facts/context where I can. I am extremely close to this case in numerous ways.

Let’s hear it.

Well, I knew Brian for nearly 20 years, both personally and professionally. Maybe the single hardest working and intelligent person I have ever known. Regardless of what you hear about him, he dedicated his career, specifically the last 3 years, to making positive changes in the health care industry.

You may hear that UHC had AI bots that automatically denied claims this is not true. UHC acquired a company that did this, but this changed right away. UHC does use AI for auto-approving claims.

He, along with former CEO and current board member Steve Hemsley, were ACCUSED of insider trading. There was a large acquisition that was being held up in the courts. These executives are ALWAYS informed by the SEC, via internal counsel, when they are not allowed to sell stocks. This is not the first time C-suite level executives at UHG have been accused of this type of behavior. He was not tried, he was not allowed to answer his accusers, and he should be considered innocent.

Are you able to speak to the 2x vs other insurers denial rate that keeps getting posted?

I mean, partially, and it is not because I am being evasive, but it is not really that simple. UHC, at it's core, is a mergers and acquisitions company. They will purchase anywhere between 30-40 companies/year. These might be small 3-4 employee clinics, or the largest health care provider in Brazil, Peru, and Colombia. My point is that UHCs denials numbers could be inherited from an AE (acquired entity), regulatory requirements from local or national entities, and/or people not filling out or providing the correct information. This is not like The Rainmaker, there is no policy or AI controlled database that auto-denies every claim that comes in.

Do you think acquisition companies operating in healthcare facilitate improved patient care? Are profit-maximizing goals aligned with health outcomes?

The fact is, the healthier people are, the more money insurance companies make.

Although it may seem counter-intuitive, actually the sicker society becomes the more people need health insurance.

The insurance industry is perfectly fine with Big Pharma and our poor diet and exercise.

All I am saying is that the less an insurance company pays out (healthier people), the more money they make. It is a fact.

I was under the impression that an insurer would have to lower their premiums if they didn't hit a certain threshold. So a company that pays out $2B in claims can have double the admin/profit than a company that pays out $1B in claims. It is kind of like real estate agents - both side want the house to sell for more as they are paid on commission.

Sorta, read my example above. Also, this is where competition comes in - if you can sell your policy for less than the other guy, you’ll sell more of them.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I disagree on this part - honestly Ozempic shouldn’t even be in the discussion of combating obesity - especially at such a young age.

Yes. While I personally believe in looking at drugs as part of health treatments on a case-by-case basis, I wholeheartedly agree with the underlying philosophy of your point. And generally as it applies to other health conditions.

Yes, I want to be clear that I am in no way calling Big Pharma evil or unnecessary- that would be dumb as obviously many people are only alive because of medications.

I just think the industry has way too much pull within our government and have major concerns with how much advertising dollars funnel into our news media.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

To all of you, I greatly appreciated this conversation. I really NEEDED this after the last week. This is where I will leave it:

Most reasonable people can agree that we do not want America to be a place where we murder people that we disagree with.

I think we can all agree that there is an opportunity for the health care to be better. Whether or not this action changes anything, I am not confident. Pitchfork Nation will move onto the next thing shortly, UHT stock will rebound, and it will most likely be business as usual. Not really sure how I feel about this as some people have made some good points about reform that is needed.

This is far from over. I am sure that there will be some Senate hearings in the next twelve months where a lot of these points will be publicly discussed.

Again, thank you for restoring my faith in this site's community. I look forward future conversations.

P.S. Jordan Love still sucks.

This incident isn't going to change anything in any meaningful way. Addressing symptoms of the problem doesn't address the problem. Until that happens, you can put all the band aids you want on the amputation wound. It's not going to matter.

 

[fatness]

Luigi Mangione's reading list, with links to his reviews. First one on the list is the Unabomber's manifesto: https://www.goodreads.com/review/list/55354261-luigi?order=d&sort=review&view=reviews

 

[matttyl]

So having a conversation with a friend in the insurance business as well, and they made an interesting point. Or at least it was interesting to me. Insurance companies, of all types, are always railed on by all sides. The media, tv shows, and even kids movies.

Anyone here remember the beginning of the Disney/Pixar movie The Incredibles? The main character, Bob the dad/Mr Incredible, works for “Insuricare” helping people with their claims. His boss is far more concerned with company profit and stockholders, reprimands Bob for helping customers, so Bob chokes him and throws him through a few walls. This is a 20 year old (this year) kids movies. And Bob is the hero of the story.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

A reminder: the US has the #1 most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly #42 in life expectancy

This seems like such a simplistic and misguided view for someone who is supposedly higher on the IQ scale. Our life expectancy has a lot to do with our culture and shouldn't fall at the feet of the healthcare industry. Medical professionals are telling people every day how to live healthier, Americans just often choose not to.

The messages are mixed, at best. I'd argue incomplete. You'll have lots of individual doctors who are as you describe. They are a fraction of the industry. A majority of the rest of the industry, especially the "for profit" companies have a significantly higher influence on our culture than the individual doctors. So yeah, it should fall at the feet of the industry.

 

[fatness]

A legal defense fund on behalf of alleged United Healthcare CEO shooter Luigi Mangione has been established and is accepting donations, reaching over $20,000 by Tuesday night. In a press release Tuesday, a group calling itself the December 4 Legal Committee announced a crowdfunding campaign. "In the midst of a heated political climate in which an unbiased jury is almost impossible to imagine, this fundraiser will help to guarantee the suspect’s constitutional right to fair legal representation,” the group stated. The fundraiser for the 26-year-old is on GiveSendGo, a Christian crowdfunding website.

His lawyer says they probably won't accept the money.

 

[QuizGuy66]

Q: is taking up surfing advisable if you have a bad back?
-QG

 

[DA RAIDERS]

I think there's a chance his lawyers will go with an insanity defense. He reportedly lost touch with his friends and family, underwent a major back surgery, and moved to Hawaii unannounced. His outburst while getting out of the car today suggests that his disillusionment may have given way to psychosis. It’s a tough defense to win but it seems his family has resources.

To my untrained mind, I think it is very difficult to claim insanity. The amount of coordination and thought to avoid capture shows that he was in control of his faculties.

My problem with the insanity defense, is of course they’re not sane. They chose to kill somebody. Its a lame defense and should be removed as an option IMHO

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I think there's a chance his lawyers will go with an insanity defense. He reportedly lost touch with his friends and family, underwent a major back surgery, and moved to Hawaii unannounced. His outburst while getting out of the car today suggests that his disillusionment may have given way to psychosis. It’s a tough defense to win but it seems his family has resources.

To my untrained mind, I think it is very difficult to claim insanity. The amount of coordination and thought to avoid capture shows that he was in control of his faculties.

My problem with the insanity defense, is of course they’re not sane. They chose to kill somebody. Its a lame defense and should be removed as an option IMHO

The bigger problem is that it's extremely difficult to convince a jury that you didn't understand the consequences of your actions when you wrote an articulate manifesto that could have been titled "Here is my rational, lucid argument for why I intentionally killed a man and would do so again." It especially hurts your case when people like US senators are repeating your talking points to the media as opposed to treating them like the ravings of a madman.

 

[Max Power]

A reminder: the US has the #1 most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly #42 in life expectancy

This seems like such a simplistic and misguided view for someone who is supposedly higher on the IQ scale. Our life expectancy has a lot to do with our culture and shouldn't fall at the feet of the healthcare industry. Medical professionals are telling people every day how to live healthier, Americans just often choose not to.

The messages are mixed, at best. I'd argue incomplete. You'll have lots of individual doctors who are as you describe. They are a fraction of the industry. A majority of the rest of the industry, especially the "for profit" companies have a significantly higher influence on our culture than the individual doctors. So yeah, it should fall at the feet of the industry.

I'm not following. How do health care companies have a high influence on our culture?

The US is lower in life expectancy due to significant obesity issues, higher rates of homicides, suicide, overdoses, and car accidents. These are more cultural issues than healthcare.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I think there's a chance his lawyers will go with an insanity defense. He reportedly lost touch with his friends and family, underwent a major back surgery, and moved to Hawaii unannounced. His outburst while getting out of the car today suggests that his disillusionment may have given way to psychosis. It’s a tough defense to win but it seems his family has resources.

To my untrained mind, I think it is very difficult to claim insanity. The amount of coordination and thought to avoid capture shows that he was in control of his faculties.

My problem with the insanity defense, is of course they’re not sane. They chose to kill somebody. Its a lame defense and should be removed as an option IMHO

As a legal concept it’s not as simple as “he killed someone so he must be crazy”.

Each state has different standards but a common one is “were unable to know the nature of their act and/or were unable to understand the nature of their act”.

Seems difficult to believe it would be a viable defense here based on his actions before and after the shooting.

 

[matttyl]

I think there's a chance his lawyers will go with an insanity defense. He reportedly lost touch with his friends and family, underwent a major back surgery, and moved to Hawaii unannounced. His outburst while getting out of the car today suggests that his disillusionment may have given way to psychosis. It’s a tough defense to win but it seems his family has resources.

To my untrained mind, I think it is very difficult to claim insanity. The amount of coordination and thought to avoid capture shows that he was in control of his faculties.

My problem with the insanity defense, is of course they’re not sane. They chose to kill somebody. Its a lame defense and should be removed as an option IMHO

The bigger problem is that it's extremely difficult to convince a jury that you didn't understand the consequences of your actions when you wrote an articulate manifesto that could have been titled "Here is my rational, lucid argument for why I intentionally killed a man and would do so again." It especially hurts your case when people like US senators are repeating your talking points to the media as opposed to treating them like the ravings of a madman.

And, you know, that you actually made the gun you used to do it.

 

[Capella]

I agree 100% with Shapiro’s statement last night. I can’t believe how many keyboard warriors are coming out of the woodwork on Facebook to hail this killing. Makes you realize how ugly some of these people are inside. It’s a shame. How did everything get so crazy, and how do we get out of it? I won’t look at some of these “friends” the same way again. I truly hope these people don’t suffer tragedy and look for sympathy from me.

Not defending what this guy did for a second but it’s more an indictment of our horrible healthcare system than anything else. People are frustrated and broke and hurt and this was an outlet to vent.

Edit: to be clear this is a post about the Facebook keyboard warriors not the actual killer.

 

[ChiefD]

constitutional right to fair legal representation,” the group stated. The fundraiser for the 26-year-old is on GiveSendGo, a Christian crowdfunding website.

His lawyer says they probably won't accept the money.

This makes total sense.

 

[mr. furley]

To all of you, I greatly appreciated this conversation. I really NEEDED this after the last week. This is where I will leave it:

Most reasonable people can agree that we do not want America to be a place where we murder people that we disagree with.

I think we can all agree that there is an opportunity for the health care to be better. Whether or not this action changes anything, I am not confident. Pitchfork Nation will move onto the next thing shortly, UHT stock will rebound, and it will most likely be business as usual. Not really sure how I feel about this as some people have made some good points about reform that is needed.

This is far from over. I am sure that there will be some Senate hearings in the next twelve months where a lot of these points will be publicly discussed.

Again, thank you for restoring my faith in this site's community. I look forward future conversations.

P.S. Jordan Love still sucks.

Come back more often. You seem well balanced and informed. Especially regarding that last part. #suckitfurley!

listen here you saminabastages

you farging iceholes

enough of this bullstein!

 

[Willie Neslon]

I think there's a chance his lawyers will go with an insanity defense. He reportedly lost touch with his friends and family, underwent a major back surgery, and moved to Hawaii unannounced. His outburst while getting out of the car today suggests that his disillusionment may have given way to psychosis. It’s a tough defense to win but it seems his family has resources.

To my untrained mind, I think it is very difficult to claim insanity. The amount of coordination and thought to avoid capture shows that he was in control of his faculties.

My problem with the insanity defense, is of course they’re not sane. They chose to kill somebody. Its a lame defense and should be removed as an option IMHO

As a legal concept it’s not as simple as “he killed someone so he must be crazy”.

Each state has different standards but a common one is “were unable to know the nature of their act and/or were unable to understand the nature of their act”.

Seems difficult to believe it would be a viable defense here based on his actions before and after the shooting.

The threat of an insanity defense, combined with the public sympathy for this guy, could push the prosecution to offer a plea deal. While winning on insanity would be extremely difficult, the defense might still take a shot or at least threaten to, especially since the case seems open and shut. It's unlikely but who knows?

 

[matttyl]

I agree 100% with Shapiro’s statement last night. I can’t believe how many keyboard warriors are coming out of the woodwork on Facebook to hail this killing. Makes you realize how ugly some of these people are inside. It’s a shame. How did everything get so crazy, and how do we get out of it? I won’t look at some of these “friends” the same way again. I truly hope these people don’t suffer tragedy and look for sympathy from me.

Not defending what this guy did for a second but it’s more an indictment of our horrible healthcare system than anything else. People are frustrated and broke and hurt and this was an outlet to vent.

The guy was a valedictorian, elite college graduate who lived (for at least some time) in Hawaii. He was doing just fine.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I think there's a chance his lawyers will go with an insanity defense. He reportedly lost touch with his friends and family, underwent a major back surgery, and moved to Hawaii unannounced. His outburst while getting out of the car today suggests that his disillusionment may have given way to psychosis. It’s a tough defense to win but it seems his family has resources.

To my untrained mind, I think it is very difficult to claim insanity. The amount of coordination and thought to avoid capture shows that he was in control of his faculties.

My problem with the insanity defense, is of course they’re not sane. They chose to kill somebody. Its a lame defense and should be removed as an option IMHO

As a legal concept it’s not as simple as “he killed someone so he must be crazy”.

Each state has different standards but a common one is “were unable to know the nature of their act and/or were unable to understand the nature of their act”.

Seems difficult to believe it would be a viable defense here based on his actions before and after the shooting.

The threat of an insanity defense, combined with the public sympathy for this guy, could push the prosecution to offer a plea deal. While winning on insanity would be extremely difficult, the defense might still take a shot or at least threaten to, especially since the case seems open and shut. It's unlikely but who knows?

It does not seem like a winning strategy but as you imply, the defense doesn't exactly have a ton of options.

 

[mr. furley]

I agree 100% with Shapiro’s statement last night. I can’t believe how many keyboard warriors are coming out of the woodwork on Facebook to hail this killing. Makes you realize how ugly some of these people are inside. It’s a shame. How did everything get so crazy, and how do we get out of it? I won’t look at some of these “friends” the same way again. I truly hope these people don’t suffer tragedy and look for sympathy from me.

Not defending what this guy did for a second but it’s more an indictment of our horrible healthcare system than anything else. People are frustrated and broke and hurt and this was an outlet to vent.

The fact that people like yourself keep reframing a cold blooded murder like this is beyond gross.

hurt people, hurt people, guy

 

[culdeus]

I am not going to link it but many of us are fans of hardcore history podcast here. The same guy does some more economic history podcast and has covered the HC industry. It has political elements to the podcast, but seems fair from my POV. It's is as extensively researched as his history podcasts

 

[Capella]

I agree 100% with Shapiro’s statement last night. I can’t believe how many keyboard warriors are coming out of the woodwork on Facebook to hail this killing. Makes you realize how ugly some of these people are inside. It’s a shame. How did everything get so crazy, and how do we get out of it? I won’t look at some of these “friends” the same way again. I truly hope these people don’t suffer tragedy and look for sympathy from me.

Not defending what this guy did for a second but it’s more an indictment of our horrible healthcare system than anything else. People are frustrated and broke and hurt and this was an outlet to vent.

The guy was a valedictorian, elite college graduate who lived (for at least some time) in Hawaii. He was doing just fine.

I was talking about people online

 

[Capella]

I agree 100% with Shapiro’s statement last night. I can’t believe how many keyboard warriors are coming out of the woodwork on Facebook to hail this killing. Makes you realize how ugly some of these people are inside. It’s a shame. How did everything get so crazy, and how do we get out of it? I won’t look at some of these “friends” the same way again. I truly hope these people don’t suffer tragedy and look for sympathy from me.

Not defending what this guy did for a second but it’s more an indictment of our horrible healthcare system than anything else. People are frustrated and broke and hurt and this was an outlet to vent.

The fact that people like yourself keep reframing a cold blooded murder like this is beyond gross.

I honestly can’t believe you thought that was what I referring to. I was literally responding to a post about people on Facebook celebrating the killing. Jesus.

 

[thecatch]

I agree 100% with Shapiro’s statement last night. I can’t believe how many keyboard warriors are coming out of the woodwork on Facebook to hail this killing. Makes you realize how ugly some of these people are inside. It’s a shame. How did everything get so crazy, and how do we get out of it? I won’t look at some of these “friends” the same way again. I truly hope these people don’t suffer tragedy and look for sympathy from me.

Not defending what this guy did for a second but it’s more an indictment of our horrible healthcare system than anything else. People are frustrated and broke and hurt and this was an outlet to vent.

The fact that people like yourself keep reframing a cold blooded murder like this is beyond gross.

I honestly can’t believe you thought that was what I referring to. I was literally responding to a post about people on Facebook celebrating the killing. Jesus.

I'll delete my post but that wasn't as clear as you thought it was, IMO.

 

[Capella]

I agree 100% with Shapiro’s statement last night. I can’t believe how many keyboard warriors are coming out of the woodwork on Facebook to hail this killing. Makes you realize how ugly some of these people are inside. It’s a shame. How did everything get so crazy, and how do we get out of it? I won’t look at some of these “friends” the same way again. I truly hope these people don’t suffer tragedy and look for sympathy from me.

Not defending what this guy did for a second but it’s more an indictment of our horrible healthcare system than anything else. People are frustrated and broke and hurt and this was an outlet to vent.

The fact that people like yourself keep reframing a cold blooded murder like this is beyond gross.

I honestly can’t believe you thought that was what I referring to. I was literally responding to a post about people on Facebook celebrating the killing. Jesus.

I'll delete my post but that wasn't as clear as you thought it was, IMO.

That’s fine. I’ll add an edit that it’s response to FB not that actual lunatic.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I disagree on this part - honestly Ozempic shouldn’t even be in the discussion of combating obesity - especially at such a young age.

So the underlying point remains but as I said a few times, it’s way off topic in this thread.

Again, this is likely for another thread.

But like it or not, Ozempic is not already in the discussion for combating obesity and here to stay. It's in the discussion that it will be covered under government programs at little to no cost for people. Including very young people. That will be the discussion and where all this is quickly headed.

Again, for a different thread and one I don't see possible without politics.

 

[Chemical X]

I agree 100% with Shapiro’s statement last night. I can’t believe how many keyboard warriors are coming out of the woodwork on Facebook to hail this killing. Makes you realize how ugly some of these people are inside. It’s a shame. How did everything get so crazy, and how do we get out of it? I won’t look at some of these “friends” the same way again. I truly hope these people don’t suffer tragedy and look for sympathy from me.

Not defending what this guy did for a second but it’s more an indictment of our horrible healthcare system than anything else. People are frustrated and broke and hurt and this was an outlet to vent.

yeah, the problem nowadays seems to be that people feel they have the right to act and are empowered to take any means necessary action. i personally feel that the columbine incident had a trickle down effect that is still felt today. problem is, where does it stop? i worked for a bank and many people moan and groan about banks. what happens when someone hates the fees being charged or that a check was bounced and they go after a CFO or me? or that supermarkets charge too much? a vigilante is a vigilante, but these people are becoming martyrs somehow, mostly due to unsocial media.

 

[jamny]

This is allegedly from the killer

https://archive.is/2024.12.09-230659/https://breloomlegacy.substack.com/p/the-allopathic-complex-and-its-consequences

Not sure if real

 

[matttyl]

This is allegedly from the killer

https://archive.is/2024.12.09-230659/https://breloomlegacy.substack.com/p/the-allopathic-complex-and-its-consequences

Not sure if real

Pretty sure that’s a Pokémon at the end of the rant.

 

[Gatorade]

I think there's a chance his lawyers will go with an insanity defense. He reportedly lost touch with his friends and family, underwent a major back surgery, and moved to Hawaii unannounced. His outburst while getting out of the car today suggests that his disillusionment may have given way to psychosis. It’s a tough defense to win but it seems his family has resources.

To my untrained mind, I think it is very difficult to claim insanity. The amount of coordination and thought to avoid capture shows that he was in control of his faculties.

My problem with the insanity defense, is of course they’re not sane. They chose to kill somebody. Its a lame defense and should be removed as an option IMHO

As a legal concept it’s not as simple as “he killed someone so he must be crazy”.

Each state has different standards but a common one is “were unable to know the nature of their act and/or were unable to understand the nature of their act”.

Seems difficult to believe it would be a viable defense here based on his actions before and after the shooting.

His lawyer says he had seen ZERO evidence to support the charges ?????
WOW !
Guess he has not seen the video recorded live that has been shown everywhere for days .

 

[the moops]

I think there's a chance his lawyers will go with an insanity defense. He reportedly lost touch with his friends and family, underwent a major back surgery, and moved to Hawaii unannounced. His outburst while getting out of the car today suggests that his disillusionment may have given way to psychosis. It’s a tough defense to win but it seems his family has resources.

To my untrained mind, I think it is very difficult to claim insanity. The amount of coordination and thought to avoid capture shows that he was in control of his faculties.

My problem with the insanity defense, is of course they’re not sane. They chose to kill somebody. Its a lame defense and should be removed as an option IMHO

As a legal concept it’s not as simple as “he killed someone so he must be crazy”.

Each state has different standards but a common one is “were unable to know the nature of their act and/or were unable to understand the nature of their act”.

Seems difficult to believe it would be a viable defense here based on his actions before and after the shooting.

The threat of an insanity defense, combined with the public sympathy for this guy, could push the prosecution to offer a plea deal. While winning on insanity would be extremely difficult, the defense might still take a shot or at least threaten to, especially since the case seems open and shut. It's unlikely but who knows?

Insanity defense is not gonna fly. And the public sympathy is completely overblown.

 

[rockaction]

Why are we talking about denial rates and insider trading as if somehow that makes the case any less egregious? We don’t know why the killer did what he did so this isn’t about figuring out the specifics of his motive.

It’s about how justified this murder is and the people concentrating on it can go to hell as far as I’m concerned.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

So having a conversation with a friend in the insurance business as well, and they made an interesting point. Or at least it was interesting to me. Insurance companies, of all types, are always railed on by all sides. The media, tv shows, and even kids movies.

Anyone here remember the beginning of the Disney/Pixar movie The Incredibles? The main character, Bob the dad/Mr Incredible, works for “Insuricare” helping people with their claims. His boss is far more concerned with company profit and stockholders, reprimands Bob for helping customers, so Bob chokes him and throws him through a few walls. This is a 20 year old (this year) kids movies. And Bob is the hero of the story.

One thing I've noticed over the years in real life and on message boards like this one is that people who are normally completely ethical and of sound legal and moral character often have no problem casually suggesting insurance fraud as a perfectly reasonable approach to a situation - like overestimating our outright lying about the contents of a stolen car or things lost in theft or fire, gaming a property insurance claim to get coverage of something you know isn't covered, casually suggesting you should claim an expensive repair was done which wasn't done, claiming you were hurt at work when you know it was a skiing accident, etc. "Can't you just say you were driving the car not your teenager when you backed into the telephone pole so your rates don't go up" and similar watercooler discussions. Often things those same people would never dream of doing in a normal business or personal relationship they have no problem doing when it relates to an insurance company.

 

[Stoneworker]

I think there's a chance his lawyers will go with an insanity defense. He reportedly lost touch with his friends and family, underwent a major back surgery, and moved to Hawaii unannounced. His outburst while getting out of the car today suggests that his disillusionment may have given way to psychosis. It’s a tough defense to win but it seems his family has resources.

To my untrained mind, I think it is very difficult to claim insanity. The amount of coordination and thought to avoid capture shows that he was in control of his faculties.

My problem with the insanity defense, is of course they’re not sane. They chose to kill somebody. Its a lame defense and should be removed as an option IMHO

As a legal concept it’s not as simple as “he killed someone so he must be crazy”.

Each state has different standards but a common one is “were unable to know the nature of their act and/or were unable to understand the nature of their act”.

Seems difficult to believe it would be a viable defense here based on his actions before and after the shooting.

His lawyer says he had seen ZERO evidence to support the charges ?????
WOW !
Guess he has not seen the video recorded live that has been shown everywhere for days .

I think the lawyer is only talking about the PA charges

He hasn't "seen" any of the NYC evidence yet b/c the suspect hasn't been extradited yet and therefore in his mind the murder charge does not yet exist and so no evidence relating to it has been presented to him

Bunch of legal mumbo jumbo but that's how I interpret it, anyway

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I think there's a chance his lawyers will go with an insanity defense. He reportedly lost touch with his friends and family, underwent a major back surgery, and moved to Hawaii unannounced. His outburst while getting out of the car today suggests that his disillusionment may have given way to psychosis. It’s a tough defense to win but it seems his family has resources.

To my untrained mind, I think it is very difficult to claim insanity. The amount of coordination and thought to avoid capture shows that he was in control of his faculties.

My problem with the insanity defense, is of course they’re not sane. They chose to kill somebody. Its a lame defense and should be removed as an option IMHO

As a legal concept it’s not as simple as “he killed someone so he must be crazy”.

Each state has different standards but a common one is “were unable to know the nature of their act and/or were unable to understand the nature of their act”.

Seems difficult to believe it would be a viable defense here based on his actions before and after the shooting.

The threat of an insanity defense, combined with the public sympathy for this guy, could push the prosecution to offer a plea deal. While winning on insanity would be extremely difficult, the defense might still take a shot or at least threaten to, especially since the case seems open and shut. It's unlikely but who knows?

Insanity defense is not gonna fly. And the public sympathy is completely overblown.

If memory serves, which is at best 50/50 for me these days, I believe this guy's hero Ted Kazcynski was found competent to stand trial even though he was seemingly rather psychotic.

 

[fatness]

This is allegedly from the killer

https://archive.is/2024.12.09-230659/https://breloomlegacy.substack.com/p/the-allopathic-complex-and-its-consequences

Not sure if real

The part of it talking about the causes, symptoms, tests, medications, and costs involved in spinal surgery sound realistic based on my personal experiences with spinal fusion surgery. But I'm guessing it was not written by him.

 

[Max Power]

This is allegedly from the killer

https://archive.is/2024.12.09-230659/https://breloomlegacy.substack.com/p/the-allopathic-complex-and-its-consequences

Not sure if real

The part of it talking about the causes, symptoms, tests, medications, and costs involved in spinal surgery sound realistic based on my personal experiences with spinal fusion surgery. But I'm guessing it was not written by him.

I'd agree. There is plenty of reporting that his family is in the top 1%, so the complaints about co-pays and "thousands of dollars" seem out of place.

 

[Fat Nick]

This is allegedly from the killer

https://archive.is/2024.12.09-230659/https://breloomlegacy.substack.com/p/the-allopathic-complex-and-its-consequences

Not sure if real

Pretty sure that’s a Pokémon at the end of the rant.

Breloom. So says my son...

 

[Fat Nick]

I think Luigi's angle from here on out is to do everything he can to drag the process out and be in the news as much as possible. He's fighting inevitable extradition simply because it keeps him in the news longer. He'll probably do some crazy crap when it comes to trial too. I don't see him pleading guilty. He wants to draw as much attention to his cause as possible by dragging it out.

 

[Willie Neslon]

I think there's a chance his lawyers will go with an insanity defense. He reportedly lost touch with his friends and family, underwent a major back surgery, and moved to Hawaii unannounced. His outburst while getting out of the car today suggests that his disillusionment may have given way to psychosis. It’s a tough defense to win but it seems his family has resources.

To my untrained mind, I think it is very difficult to claim insanity. The amount of coordination and thought to avoid capture shows that he was in control of his faculties.

My problem with the insanity defense, is of course they’re not sane. They chose to kill somebody. Its a lame defense and should be removed as an option IMHO

As a legal concept it’s not as simple as “he killed someone so he must be crazy”.

Each state has different standards but a common one is “were unable to know the nature of their act and/or were unable to understand the nature of their act”.

Seems difficult to believe it would be a viable defense here based on his actions before and after the shooting.

The threat of an insanity defense, combined with the public sympathy for this guy, could push the prosecution to offer a plea deal. While winning on insanity would be extremely difficult, the defense might still take a shot or at least threaten to, especially since the case seems open and shut. It's unlikely but who knows?

Insanity defense is not gonna fly. And the public sympathy is completely overblown.

If memory serves, which is at best 50/50 for me these days, I believe this guy's hero Ted Kazcynski was found competent to stand trial even though he was seemingly rather psychotic.

From what I remember Kaczynski himself rejected using the insanity defense because he did not want to be discredited as mentally ill. He believed it would undermine the legitimacy of his manifesto. This guy might go down the same road. No matter who ends up prosecuting the case, they will probably want to avoid a circus and push for a guilty plea before it goes to trial, especially if it's the feds.

 

[thecatch]

I think there's a chance his lawyers will go with an insanity defense. He reportedly lost touch with his friends and family, underwent a major back surgery, and moved to Hawaii unannounced. His outburst while getting out of the car today suggests that his disillusionment may have given way to psychosis. It’s a tough defense to win but it seems his family has resources.

To my untrained mind, I think it is very difficult to claim insanity. The amount of coordination and thought to avoid capture shows that he was in control of his faculties.

My problem with the insanity defense, is of course they’re not sane. They chose to kill somebody. Its a lame defense and should be removed as an option IMHO

As a legal concept it’s not as simple as “he killed someone so he must be crazy”.

Each state has different standards but a common one is “were unable to know the nature of their act and/or were unable to understand the nature of their act”.

Seems difficult to believe it would be a viable defense here based on his actions before and after the shooting.

The threat of an insanity defense, combined with the public sympathy for this guy, could push the prosecution to offer a plea deal. While winning on insanity would be extremely difficult, the defense might still take a shot or at least threaten to, especially since the case seems open and shut. It's unlikely but who knows?

Insanity defense is not gonna fly. And the public sympathy is completely overblown.

If memory serves, which is at best 50/50 for me these days, I believe this guy's hero Ted Kazcynski was found competent to stand trial even though he was seemingly rather psychotic.

He pleaded guilty, I don't recall if that issue was fully litigated beforehand. I tend to doubt it.

 

[the moops]

No matter who ends up prosecuting the case, they will probably want to avoid a circus and push for a guilty plea before it goes to trial, especially if it's the feds.

I think just the opposite. Prosecutors (many) love to be in front of the camera. I doubt there is any plea. And how/why would it be the feds? This is clearly a NYC crime right?