NYC assassination news thread - Please no politics (3 Viewers)

[matttyl]

This is allegedly from the killer

https://archive.is/2024.12.09-230659/https://breloomlegacy.substack.com/p/the-allopathic-complex-and-its-consequences

Not sure if real

Pretty sure that’s a Pokémon at the end of the rant.

Breloom. So says my son...

Yes, that’s the one. The link itself it to “breloom legacy”. Never heard of it

 

[Joe Bryant]

Why are we talking about denial rates and insider trading as if somehow that makes the case any less egregious? We don’t know why the killer did what he did so this isn’t about figuring out the specifics of his motive.

Understood.

Some of the "I'm not making any equation at all here - but just showing that sometimes we do "celebrate" a death/murder." and the Chris Rock "I'm not saying it's 'right' but I understand it". comments were eye opening.

I think we're at an interesting place.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I agree 100% with Shapiro’s statement last night. I can’t believe how many keyboard warriors are coming out of the woodwork on Facebook to hail this killing. Makes you realize how ugly some of these people are inside. It’s a shame. How did everything get so crazy, and how do we get out of it? I won’t look at some of these “friends” the same way again. I truly hope these people don’t suffer tragedy and look for sympathy from me.

Not defending what this guy did for a second but it’s more an indictment of our horrible healthcare system than anything else. People are frustrated and broke and hurt and this was an outlet to vent.

yeah, the problem nowadays seems to be that people feel they have the right to act and are empowered to take any means necessary action. i personally feel that the columbine incident had a trickle down effect that is still felt today. problem is, where does it stop? i worked for a bank and many people moan and groan about banks. what happens when someone hates the fees being charged or that a check was bounced and they go after a CFO or me? or that supermarkets charge too much? a vigilante is a vigilante, but these people are becoming martyrs somehow, mostly due to unsocial media.

posting:

I think that's the worry a lot of people feel. Where does it stop?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I disagree on this part - honestly Ozempic shouldn’t even be in the discussion of combating obesity - especially at such a young age.

So the underlying point remains but as I said a few times, it’s way off topic in this thread.

Again, this is likely for another thread.

But like it or not, Ozempic is not already in the discussion for combating obesity and here to stay. It's in the discussion that it will be covered under government programs at little to no cost for people. Including very young people. That will be the discussion and where all this is quickly headed.

Again, for a different thread and one I don't see possible without politics.

This will get political (and it stops here) but it may not be "here to stay" (as a first line of defense) under the new administration.

 

[Joe Bryant]

will get political (and it stops here) but it may not be "here to stay" (as a first line of defense) under the new administration.

True.

 

[Jaysus]

I agree 100% with Shapiro’s statement last night. I can’t believe how many keyboard warriors are coming out of the woodwork on Facebook to hail this killing. Makes you realize how ugly some of these people are inside. It’s a shame. How did everything get so crazy, and how do we get out of it? I won’t look at some of these “friends” the same way again. I truly hope these people don’t suffer tragedy and look for sympathy from me.

Not defending what this guy did for a second but it’s more an indictment of our horrible healthcare system than anything else. People are frustrated and broke and hurt and this was an outlet to vent.

yeah, the problem nowadays seems to be that people feel they have the right to act and are empowered to take any means necessary action. i personally feel that the columbine incident had a trickle down effect that is still felt today. problem is, where does it stop? i worked for a bank and many people moan and groan about banks. what happens when someone hates the fees being charged or that a check was bounced and they go after a CFO or me? or that supermarkets charge too much? a vigilante is a vigilante, but these people are becoming martyrs somehow, mostly due to unsocial media.

posting:

I think that's the worry a lot of people feel. Where does it stop?

As far as I can tell the killing of CEOs already stopped.

ETA: the people complaining about things on the internet will never end... that is what the internet is for.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

A reminder: the US has the #1 most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly #42 in life expectancy

This seems like such a simplistic and misguided view for someone who is supposedly higher on the IQ scale. Our life expectancy has a lot to do with our culture and shouldn't fall at the feet of the healthcare industry. Medical professionals are telling people every day how to live healthier, Americans just often choose not to.

The messages are mixed, at best. I'd argue incomplete. You'll have lots of individual doctors who are as you describe. They are a fraction of the industry. A majority of the rest of the industry, especially the "for profit" companies have a significantly higher influence on our culture than the individual doctors. So yeah, it should fall at the feet of the industry.

I'm not following. How do health care companies have a high influence on our culture?

The US is lower in life expectancy due to significant obesity issues, higher rates of homicides, suicide, overdoses, and car accidents. These are more cultural issues than healthcare.

They are part of our culture and tightly woven into it. We can see it in everything from them writing legislation to giving us "advertisements" selling us things. Almost EVERY problem has a medication for it these days.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

As far as I can tell the killing of CEOs already stopped.

ETA: the people complaining about things on the internet will never end... that is what the internet is for.

Since 2020, we've had several cities set on fire, the capital building stormed by rioters, a nut show up with a hammer at Pelosi's house, a guy with a gun show up at Kavanaugh's house, a guy take a shot at Trump, another guy try to take a shot at Trump, and a CEO gunned down in the street. I'm probably forgetting some stuff.

But yeah, we're good.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Oh yeah, and the Hamas weirdos.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

and the Chris Rock "I'm not saying it's 'right' but I understand it". comments were eye opening.

I was the one that said this but it's taken out of context here as I was commenting on what people were thinking in making those comments. Some acted like they couldn't understand why people acted in such a callous manner here. I don’t agree with the people making those comments but I can understand them in an empathetic way.

I have not once justified the murder or disparaged the victim in any way. I've barely talked about insurance topics and got pulled off topic mostly.

The strongest statement I have made in that direction is that I believe there can still be some empathy towards people that could be pushed to the brink and if you really believed an Insurance Company denying a claim killed your mother why that person could see some gray areas - and how some could want to make him a villain. But I also said we live in a society where there are far more ethical ways to get revenge if you must including civil lawsuits, media blitzes or an on-line presence.

This was 100% unjustified murder - I'm posting this now because I recognized my quote and didn't want it labeled as me being pro-killer.

 

[matttyl]

A reminder: the US has the #1 most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly #42 in life expectancy

This seems like such a simplistic and misguided view for someone who is supposedly higher on the IQ scale. Our life expectancy has a lot to do with our culture and shouldn't fall at the feet of the healthcare industry. Medical professionals are telling people every day how to live healthier, Americans just often choose not to.

The messages are mixed, at best. I'd argue incomplete. You'll have lots of individual doctors who are as you describe. They are a fraction of the industry. A majority of the rest of the industry, especially the "for profit" companies have a significantly higher influence on our culture than the individual doctors. So yeah, it should fall at the feet of the industry.

I'm not following. How do health care companies have a high influence on our culture?

The US is lower in life expectancy due to significant obesity issues, higher rates of homicides, suicide, overdoses, and car accidents. These are more cultural issues than healthcare.

They are part of our culture and tightly woven into it. We can see it in everything from them writing legislation to giving us "advertisements" selling us things. Almost EVERY problem has a medication for it these days.

I just want to verify who each of you are referring to g to above (might be the reason for the misunderstanding). Are you talking about health insurance companies (BCBS, United), or healthcare provider organizations (hospital networks and such)? Oftentimes those two can overlap.

 

[the moops]

As far as I can tell the killing of CEOs already stopped.

ETA: the people complaining about things on the internet will never end... that is what the internet is for.

Since 2020, we've had several cities set on fire, the capital building stormed by rioters, a nut show up with a hammer at Pelosi's house, a guy with a gun show up at Kavanaugh's house, a guy take a shot at Trump, another guy try to take a shot at Trump, and a CEO gunned down in the street. I'm probably forgetting some stuff.

But yeah, we're good.

If we take any 5 year stretch in US history there is all sorts of bad stuff happening. I am skeptical that we are any less good than we have ever been

 

[Sparky Polastri]

A reminder: the US has the #1 most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly #42 in life expectancy

This seems like such a simplistic and misguided view for someone who is supposedly higher on the IQ scale. Our life expectancy has a lot to do with our culture and shouldn't fall at the feet of the healthcare industry. Medical professionals are telling people every day how to live healthier, Americans just often choose not to.

The messages are mixed, at best. I'd argue incomplete. You'll have lots of individual doctors who are as you describe. They are a fraction of the industry. A majority of the rest of the industry, especially the "for profit" companies have a significantly higher influence on our culture than the individual doctors. So yeah, it should fall at the feet of the industry.

I'm not following. How do health care companies have a high influence on our culture?

The US is lower in life expectancy due to significant obesity issues, higher rates of homicides, suicide, overdoses, and car accidents. These are more cultural issues than healthcare.

They are part of our culture and tightly woven into it. We can see it in everything from them writing legislation to giving us "advertisements" selling us things. Almost EVERY problem has a medication for it these days.

I just want to verify who each of you are referring to g to above (might be the reason for the misunderstanding). Are you talking about health insurance companies (BCBS, United), or healthcare provider organizations (hospital networks and such)? Oftentimes those two can overlap.

I am speaking of the entire industry. The industry as a whole is full of contradictions and mixed messages. That's because of the "for profit" aspect of it and the goals of all the different groups being very different. It a poop show.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

As far as I can tell the killing of CEOs already stopped.

ETA: the people complaining about things on the internet will never end... that is what the internet is for.

Since 2020, we've had several cities set on fire, the capital building stormed by rioters, a nut show up with a hammer at Pelosi's house, a guy with a gun show up at Kavanaugh's house, a guy take a shot at Trump, another guy try to take a shot at Trump, and a CEO gunned down in the street. I'm probably forgetting some stuff.

But yeah, we're good.

If we take any 5 year stretch in US history there is all sorts of bad stuff happening. I am skeptical that we are any less good than we have ever been

I am 99.999% confident that this type of violence has not actually been commonplace in either of our lifetimes. As others have noted, this is like the late 60 and early 70s. This is not normal.

 

[Max Power]

A reminder: the US has the #1 most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly #42 in life expectancy

This seems like such a simplistic and misguided view for someone who is supposedly higher on the IQ scale. Our life expectancy has a lot to do with our culture and shouldn't fall at the feet of the healthcare industry. Medical professionals are telling people every day how to live healthier, Americans just often choose not to.

The messages are mixed, at best. I'd argue incomplete. You'll have lots of individual doctors who are as you describe. They are a fraction of the industry. A majority of the rest of the industry, especially the "for profit" companies have a significantly higher influence on our culture than the individual doctors. So yeah, it should fall at the feet of the industry.

I'm not following. How do health care companies have a high influence on our culture?

The US is lower in life expectancy due to significant obesity issues, higher rates of homicides, suicide, overdoses, and car accidents. These are more cultural issues than healthcare.

They are part of our culture and tightly woven into it. We can see it in everything from them writing legislation to giving us "advertisements" selling us things. Almost EVERY problem has a medication for it these days.

I just want to verify who each of you are referring to g to above (might be the reason for the misunderstanding). Are you talking about health insurance companies (BCBS, United), or healthcare provider organizations (hospital networks and such)? Oftentimes those two can overlap.

I didn't distinguish in the initial comment because I don't feel either are responsible for America's lower life expectancy.

I'm still sort of lost with the culture aspect. If the comment is that big pharma media advertising has invaded our culture, I can agree with that. Every other commercial is for a medication these days.

Are all the advertisements and pushing medication as a primary treatment option a net negative to our health? I don't think we have the information to make that assessment.

 

[GroveDiesel]

I agree 100% with Shapiro’s statement last night. I can’t believe how many keyboard warriors are coming out of the woodwork on Facebook to hail this killing. Makes you realize how ugly some of these people are inside. It’s a shame. How did everything get so crazy, and how do we get out of it? I won’t look at some of these “friends” the same way again. I truly hope these people don’t suffer tragedy and look for sympathy from me.

Not defending what this guy did for a second but it’s more an indictment of our horrible healthcare system than anything else. People are frustrated and broke and hurt and this was an outlet to vent.

yeah, the problem nowadays seems to be that people feel they have the right to act and are empowered to take any means necessary action. i personally feel that the columbine incident had a trickle down effect that is still felt today. problem is, where does it stop? i worked for a bank and many people moan and groan about banks. what happens when someone hates the fees being charged or that a check was bounced and they go after a CFO or me? or that supermarkets charge too much? a vigilante is a vigilante, but these people are becoming martyrs somehow, mostly due to unsocial media.

posting:

I think that's the worry a lot of people feel. Where does it stop?

As far as I can tell the killing of CEOs already stopped.

ETA: the people complaining about things on the internet will never end... that is what the internet is for.

I wouldn’t classify what I’m reading a lot of places as complaining. The front page of Reddit has been filled with support for the killer. X.com has been filled with support for the killer. When someone like this is being praised as a hero by large amounts of people, it could embolden others to take the same path.

Just today there were wanted posters posted around NY of CEOs of other health insurance companies. Police reported that there is an online “hitlist” of CEOs.

And I’m not sure if the new CEO at UnitedHealth is brave, stupid, or both, but it feels like he poured gasoline on a fire when he said that they’re going to continue to “fight against unnecessary care.”

We are in a dangerous time IMO. A whole lot of people are hurting and angry.

 

[RCon]

As far as I can tell the killing of CEOs already stopped.

ETA: the people complaining about things on the internet will never end... that is what the internet is for.

Since 2020, we've had several cities set on fire, the capital building stormed by rioters, a nut show up with a hammer at Pelosi's house, a guy with a gun show up at Kavanaugh's house, a guy take a shot at Trump, another guy try to take a shot at Trump, and a CEO gunned down in the street. I'm probably forgetting some stuff.

But yeah, we're good.

Is your argument here that people suck? Seems self-evident over the last several millennia, no?

Or is your argument that people suck more now than in the past? Simply citing crazy acts by people isn't enough to prove this. I mean, witch trials, Spanish inquisition, Crusades, slavery... People have always sucked.

 

[Capella]

As far as I can tell the killing of CEOs already stopped.

ETA: the people complaining about things on the internet will never end... that is what the internet is for.

Since 2020, we've had several cities set on fire, the capital building stormed by rioters, a nut show up with a hammer at Pelosi's house, a guy with a gun show up at Kavanaugh's house, a guy take a shot at Trump, another guy try to take a shot at Trump, and a CEO gunned down in the street. I'm probably forgetting some stuff.

But yeah, we're good.

Lot of guns and angry people out there man.

 

[rockaction]

Eh, forget it.

As far as I can tell the killing of CEOs already stopped.

ETA: the people complaining about things on the internet will never end... that is what the internet is for.

Since 2020, we've had several cities set on fire, the capital building stormed by rioters, a nut show up with a hammer at Pelosi's house, a guy with a gun show up at Kavanaugh's house, a guy take a shot at Trump, another guy try to take a shot at Trump, and a CEO gunned down in the street. I'm probably forgetting some stuff.

But yeah, we're good.

Is your argument here that people suck? Seems self-evident over the last several millennia, no?

Or is your argument that people suck more now than in the past? Simply citing crazy acts by people isn't enough to prove this. I mean, witch trials, Spanish inquisition, Crusades, slavery... People have always sucked.

Yes, the ability to understand context here is crucial. It would seem that IK has limited himself to 20th and 21st century America.

 

[matttyl]

There’s no way of saying this without being political, but the quote from Elizabeth Warren was sad to hear.

 

[Joe Bryant]

As far as I can tell the killing of CEOs already stopped.

ETA: the people complaining about things on the internet will never end... that is what the internet is for.

Since 2020, we've had several cities set on fire, the capital building stormed by rioters, a nut show up with a hammer at Pelosi's house, a guy with a gun show up at Kavanaugh's house, a guy take a shot at Trump, another guy try to take a shot at Trump, and a CEO gunned down in the street. I'm probably forgetting some stuff.

But yeah, we're good.

If we take any 5 year stretch in US history there is all sorts of bad stuff happening. I am skeptical that we are any less good than we have ever been

It's a fair question. Clearly, there were some horrific times with assassinations in the 60's. And of course, going back hundreds of years. I'm more interested in the question of how it relates to the last 60 years or so (my lifetime)

It does "feel" different now. But I'm also a big believer in facts over feelings so it probably would be worth a new thread there on this. It's an interesting question.

The other issue of course is we know have social media where everyone has a voice. We didn't have the same insight into public opinion back then that we do now. Which makes it challenging.

 

[Sammy3469]

As far as I can tell the killing of CEOs already stopped.

ETA: the people complaining about things on the internet will never end... that is what the internet is for.

Since 2020, we've had several cities set on fire, the capital building stormed by rioters, a nut show up with a hammer at Pelosi's house, a guy with a gun show up at Kavanaugh's house, a guy take a shot at Trump, another guy try to take a shot at Trump, and a CEO gunned down in the street. I'm probably forgetting some stuff.

But yeah, we're good.

If we take any 5 year stretch in US history there is all sorts of bad stuff happening. I am skeptical that we are any less good than we have ever been

I am 99.999% confident that this type of violence has not actually been commonplace in either of our lifetimes. As others have noted, this is like the late 60 and early 70s. This is not normal.

I'd posit the relative tranquility of (I guess you're talking the 90s and 00s) is the exception not the rule. I'd also make the argument the comparable historical reference is the Gilded Age which saw two presidents killed over a 20 year period.

 

[Dezbelief]

This is allegedly from the killer

https://archive.is/2024.12.09-230659/https://breloomlegacy.substack.com/p/the-allopathic-complex-and-its-consequences

Not sure if real

The part of it talking about the causes, symptoms, tests, medications, and costs involved in spinal surgery sound realistic based on my personal experiences with spinal fusion surgery. But I'm guessing it was not written by him.

I'd agree. There is plenty of reporting that his family is in the top 1%, so the complaints about co-pays and "thousands of dollars" seem out of place.

Luigi Mangione's family ties to health care industry revealed

Luigi Mangione, 26, was arrested on Monday in connection with the killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.

www.newsweek.com

 

[dgreen]

There’s no way of saying this without being political, but the quote from Elizabeth Warren was sad to hear.

Unfortunately, a key part to tribalism and politics is to demonize some group of people. There always has to be an enemy. Each tribe makes very similar arguments, but towards different targets. And each tribe thinks they've identified the right targets, while the other tribes have obviously identified the wrong ones. I don't know if it's a genuine position that is just blind to the hypocrisy or knowingly politic-ing in bad faith for tribal gain.

 

[Willie Neslon]

No matter who ends up prosecuting the case, they will probably want to avoid a circus and push for a guilty plea before it goes to trial, especially if it's the feds.

I think just the opposite. Prosecutors (many) love to be in front of the camera. I doubt there is any plea. And how/why would it be the feds? This is clearly a NYC crime right?

Agree that prosecutors love the spotlight but in high-profile cases the goal usually shifts to securing a conviction and limiting the defendant's exposure. I doubt theyd want a drawn-out trial that risks a circus atmosphere. The feds, while this might be a NYC case, could still step in if there are federal elements. They have more talent and resources, and they’re always looking to make an example out of someone to send a message.

 

[Joe Bryant]

This was 100% unjustified murder - I'm posting this now because I recognized my quote and didn't want it labeled as me being pro-killer.

Thanks. I was clear not to attach your name to the quotes as it was more a general observation and not directed at you.

The "pro-killer" description is not really the point. I think very few people would actually be "pro-killer".

But it's not a binary scale. I think the worry is there seems to be a fair bit of gray there with the "Well, you can only push people so far, and then they start to take matters into their own hands." that feels like a people.

 

[rockaction]

As far as I can tell the killing of CEOs already stopped.

ETA: the people complaining about things on the internet will never end... that is what the internet is for.

Since 2020, we've had several cities set on fire, the capital building stormed by rioters, a nut show up with a hammer at Pelosi's house, a guy with a gun show up at Kavanaugh's house, a guy take a shot at Trump, another guy try to take a shot at Trump, and a CEO gunned down in the street. I'm probably forgetting some stuff.

But yeah, we're good.

If we take any 5 year stretch in US history there is all sorts of bad stuff happening. I am skeptical that we are any less good than we have ever been

I am 99.999% confident that this type of violence has not actually been commonplace in either of our lifetimes. As others have noted, this is like the late 60 and early 70s. This is not normal.

I'd posit the relative tranquility of (I guess you're talking the 90s and 00s) is the exception not the rule. I'd also make the argument the comparable historical reference is the Gilded Age which saw two presidents killed over a 20 year period.

I’d make the argument that it’s as recent as ’68 (MLK, RFK) and the intellectual descendants of ’68 are at it again, only this time they aren’t students any longer.

They’re professors.

(I did that for effect rather than truth, but it’s entirely accurate and on point.)

 

[matttyl]

This is allegedly from the killer

https://archive.is/2024.12.09-230659/https://breloomlegacy.substack.com/p/the-allopathic-complex-and-its-consequences

Not sure if real

The part of it talking about the causes, symptoms, tests, medications, and costs involved in spinal surgery sound realistic based on my personal experiences with spinal fusion surgery. But I'm guessing it was not written by him.

I'd agree. There is plenty of reporting that his family is in the top 1%, so the complaints about co-pays and "thousands of dollars" seem out of place.

Luigi Mangione's family ties to health care industry revealed

Luigi Mangione, 26, was arrested on Monday in connection with the killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.

www.newsweek.com

Thank you for reporting this. Fascinating.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

This was 100% unjustified murder - I'm posting this now because I recognized my quote and didn't want it labeled as me being pro-killer.

Thanks. I was clear not to attach your name to the quotes as it was more a general observation and not directed at you.

The "pro-killer" description is not really the point. I think very few people would actually be "pro-killer".

But it's not a binary scale. I think the worry is there seems to be a fair bit of gray there with the "Well, you can only push people so far, and then they start to take matters into their own hands." that feels like a people.

Ok - I didn’t want to be labled as agreeing with those making a hero out of the killer or those saying it’s justified in any way.

I feel like the quote lacked context - and whether my name was attached or not I know I said it.

 

[Scoresman]

My social media is starting to fill up with what I assume are AI generated images of people posting fake alibis for this guy. “Here’s Luigi and I at the Devils game!” “Here’s Luigi helping me put up my Christmas tree on 12/4!”

It’s gross and I’ve never seen such widespread “fringe” behavior on social media.

 

[Dezbelief]

This is allegedly from the killer

https://archive.is/2024.12.09-230659/https://breloomlegacy.substack.com/p/the-allopathic-complex-and-its-consequences

Not sure if real

The part of it talking about the causes, symptoms, tests, medications, and costs involved in spinal surgery sound realistic based on my personal experiences with spinal fusion surgery. But I'm guessing it was not written by him.

I'd agree. There is plenty of reporting that his family is in the top 1%, so the complaints about co-pays and "thousands of dollars" seem out of place.

Luigi Mangione's family ties to health care industry revealed

Luigi Mangione, 26, was arrested on Monday in connection with the killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.

www.newsweek.com

Thank you for reporting this. Fascinating.

It's not out of the realm of possibilities that the shooter or his family has attended some of these investor meetings in the past.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I agree more with this take.

The public execution of an innocent man and father of two is indefensible, not “inevitable.”

 

[matttyl]

My social media is starting to fill up with what I assume are AI generated images of people posting fake alibis for this guy. “Here’s Luigi and I at the Devils game!” “Here’s Luigi helping me put up my Christmas tree on 12/4!”

It’s gross and I’ve never seen such widespread “fringe” behavior on social media.

I’m seeing all kinds of crazy things. Alibi pictures and postings. Women asking for Luigi lookalike contestants. People legit referring to him as a hero, with hundreds/thousands of likes/hearts. This has to be AI combined with bots, right?

 

[Terminalxylem]

Since I do not know the answer ... what do the quasi -socialist govts in Europe do for healthcare denials? For instance, Sweden. I guess it's called public healthcare for them France, Netherlands, etc. I'm told you can just walk in to a hospital or doctor and they take care of you. You walk out without a bill. Obvi society is paying for your treatment with higher taxes. But do they say "nothing is wrong with you" and deny treatment. Do they determine afterwards that it was unnecessary and bill you back? Anyone lived there?

First off, I hope you realize just how complicated of a question you’re asking here. So many factors at play. Every system is different, and EVERY system rations care somehow, by someone, for something. Here in the US, for better or worse, we might have an insurance company denying you the coverage (or more technically, saying they won’t pay for it).

The UK, for instance, has the National Health Service (NHS), who uses the National Institute for Care Excellence (or NICE) to assess the cost-effectiveness of care with a system called QALYs (quality adjusted life years) to quite literally put a value on the number of expected years a person has remaining (roughly 25k pounds I believe - pounds being their currency obviously). If care is expected to give a person an additional quality adjusted life years (QALY) and cost less then ~25k pounds, it’s likely approved. Much more than that, it likely won’t be - and it’s never requested, thus can’t be rejected/denied. It’s generally accepted that it works there due to Britain’s post WW2 views of shared sacrifice, which we really don’t have here at this time. (As an aside, can you imagine AI taking over a system like that here in the US?!)

France still has a layer of health insurance in their system, with over 90% of their population having some form of private insurance (mainly for stuff that isn’t covered - copays, and dental and vision). Their universal system still leaves the individual a 20% coinsurance for inpatient hospital stays, and 30% for outpatient - and a huge range for drugs depending on their “effectiveness” (with something like insulin covered at 100%, some others only 85% or potentially not at all - there is a national drug formulary). But their costs for those inpatient and outpatient (and drugs) tend to be FAR LESS than what’s charged here.

This number is shockingly low. IIRC, US standards for “cost effective” are typically up to $100-150/QALY, though cancer therapeutics are sometimes several fold more expensive.

Could you imagine that conversation happening here in US?

No, but maybe it should, as we surely provide more futile care than other countries.

Of course, our system is so much more expensive than the rest of the world, so the cut-offs would have to be adjusted accordingly.

I was thinking the same on your last point. $25k goes a lot further with care there than it would here. And that’s the biggest problem.

How much do physicians in the US earn relative to other countries?

Too much

 

[culdeus]

This is allegedly from the killer

https://archive.is/2024.12.09-230659/https://breloomlegacy.substack.com/p/the-allopathic-complex-and-its-consequences

Not sure if real

The part of it talking about the causes, symptoms, tests, medications, and costs involved in spinal surgery sound realistic based on my personal experiences with spinal fusion surgery. But I'm guessing it was not written by him.

I'd agree. There is plenty of reporting that his family is in the top 1%, so the complaints about co-pays and "thousands of dollars" seem out of place.

Is your position that healthcare should cost what you can afford to pay?

 

[Terminalxylem]

Since I do not know the answer ... what do the quasi -socialist govts in Europe do for healthcare denials? For instance, Sweden. I guess it's called public healthcare for them France, Netherlands, etc. I'm told you can just walk in to a hospital or doctor and they take care of you. You walk out without a bill. Obvi society is paying for your treatment with higher taxes. But do they say "nothing is wrong with you" and deny treatment. Do they determine afterwards that it was unnecessary and bill you back? Anyone lived there?

First off, I hope you realize just how complicated of a question you’re asking here. So many factors at play. Every system is different, and EVERY system rations care somehow, by someone, for something. Here in the US, for better or worse, we might have an insurance company denying you the coverage (or more technically, saying they won’t pay for it).

The UK, for instance, has the National Health Service (NHS), who uses the National Institute for Care Excellence (or NICE) to assess the cost-effectiveness of care with a system called QALYs (quality adjusted life years) to quite literally put a value on the number of expected years a person has remaining (roughly 25k pounds I believe - pounds being their currency obviously). If care is expected to give a person an additional quality adjusted life years (QALY) and cost less then ~25k pounds, it’s likely approved. Much more than that, it likely won’t be - and it’s never requested, thus can’t be rejected/denied. It’s generally accepted that it works there due to Britain’s post WW2 views of shared sacrifice, which we really don’t have here at this time. (As an aside, can you imagine AI taking over a system like that here in the US?!)

France still has a layer of health insurance in their system, with over 90% of their population having some form of private insurance (mainly for stuff that isn’t covered - copays, and dental and vision). Their universal system still leaves the individual a 20% coinsurance for inpatient hospital stays, and 30% for outpatient - and a huge range for drugs depending on their “effectiveness” (with something like insulin covered at 100%, some others only 85% or potentially not at all - there is a national drug formulary). But their costs for those inpatient and outpatient (and drugs) tend to be FAR LESS than what’s charged here.

Good info. I understand it is complex. I guess I'm trying to understand the rationale of people thinking murdering a CEO will fix the underlying problem of denials or partial coverage approvals. As you point out it happens even in health care systems that are almost 100% public. Which is the info I was after in my question because I did not know. So even the public system has a cost control mandate. So what exactly are people after? Neither public nor private health care systems to care at all about costs, and approve every request?

Look, my MIL died from a complete fiasco by a hospital. Misdiagnosed, multiple surgeries she did not need, and 9 months of hell trying to recover from it. Hospital and their docs cannot be held liable at all for a misdiagnosis. And our family had plenty of money. It wasn't an issue. But $300K of BCBS and our own money later, she died. With hundreds of denials. Heck, they denied the ambulance that took my grandmother to the hospital where she ended up dying. We had to submit it 4 times. Fact is I'd prefer to die in my chair in front of the TV than go to surgery after age 75. Odds are you aren't coming out.

Anyway, whatever system a country has is obviously going to manage costs. You just gotta be vigilant trying to get what you think it right.

I’m sorry for your loss, and terrible experience with your MIL’s care.

But septuagenarians routinely survive many surgeries, ranging from the heart, to the hips. My 80-year old father-in-law just had lung cancer resected, and is pretty much back to his preoperative level of functioning.

None of that negates the sad state of healthcare though.

 

[Max Power]

This is allegedly from the killer

https://archive.is/2024.12.09-230659/https://breloomlegacy.substack.com/p/the-allopathic-complex-and-its-consequences

Not sure if real

The part of it talking about the causes, symptoms, tests, medications, and costs involved in spinal surgery sound realistic based on my personal experiences with spinal fusion surgery. But I'm guessing it was not written by him.

I'd agree. There is plenty of reporting that his family is in the top 1%, so the complaints about co-pays and "thousands of dollars" seem out of place.

Is your position that healthcare should cost what you can afford to pay?

No, but co-pays are roughly 20-50 bucks depending on the plan and service. 6k max a year out of pocket to a family that seemingly has multiple mission dollar houses and makes million dollar donations, doesn't strike me as an amount he would stew over.

 

[uwillbsoon]

Why are we talking about denial rates and insider trading as if somehow that makes the case any less egregious? We don’t know why the killer did what he did so this isn’t about figuring out the specifics of his motive.

It’s about how justified this murder is and the people concentrating on it can go to hell as far as I’m concerned.

No kidding. Denial rates and insider trading. Silly.

We all know we should be talking about Teen Vogue's political coverage or posts from seven years ago.

 

[matttyl]

This is allegedly from the killer

https://archive.is/2024.12.09-230659/https://breloomlegacy.substack.com/p/the-allopathic-complex-and-its-consequences

Not sure if real

The part of it talking about the causes, symptoms, tests, medications, and costs involved in spinal surgery sound realistic based on my personal experiences with spinal fusion surgery. But I'm guessing it was not written by him.

I'd agree. There is plenty of reporting that his family is in the top 1%, so the complaints about co-pays and "thousands of dollars" seem out of place.

Is your position that healthcare should cost what you can afford to pay?

No, but co-pays are roughly 20-50 bucks depending on the plan and service. 6k max a year out of pocket to a family that seemingly has multiple mission dollar houses and makes million dollar donations, doesn't strike me as an amount he would stew over.

Which is why I believe that’s not from the killer at all. It’s just a post someone made pretending to be him (before other facts came out), in an attempt to garner sympathy for him. Sickening.

 

[uwillbsoon]

As far as I can tell the killing of CEOs already stopped.

ETA: the people complaining about things on the internet will never end... that is what the internet is for.

Since 2020, we've had several cities set on fire, the capital building stormed by rioters, a nut show up with a hammer at Pelosi's house, a guy with a gun show up at Kavanaugh's house, a guy take a shot at Trump, another guy try to take a shot at Trump, and a CEO gunned down in the street. I'm probably forgetting some stuff.

But yeah, we're good.

If we take any 5 year stretch in US history there is all sorts of bad stuff happening. I am skeptical that we are any less good than we have ever been

I am 99.999% confident that this type of violence has not actually been commonplace in either of our lifetimes. As others have noted, this is like the late 60 and early 70s. This is not norma

This is allegedly from the killer

https://archive.is/2024.12.09-230659/https://breloomlegacy.substack.com/p/the-allopathic-complex-and-its-consequences

Not sure if real

The part of it talking about the causes, symptoms, tests, medications, and costs involved in spinal surgery sound realistic based on my personal experiences with spinal fusion surgery. But I'm guessing it was not written by him.

I'd agree. There is plenty of reporting that his family is in the top 1%, so the complaints about co-pays and "thousands of dollars" seem out of place.

Is your position that healthcare should cost what you can afford to pay?

No, but co-pays are roughly 20-50 bucks depending on the plan and service. 6k max a year out of pocket to a family that seemingly has multiple mission dollar houses and makes million dollar donations, doesn't strike me as an amount he would stew over.

Right. That seemed discordant to me.

Do they still own a hospital? Or is it just nursing homes now?

They spent almost 150k on his high school

This is allegedly from the killer

https://archive.is/2024.12.09-230659/https://breloomlegacy.substack.com/p/the-allopathic-complex-and-its-consequences

Not sure if real

The part of it talking about the causes, symptoms, tests, medications, and costs involved in spinal surgery sound realistic based on my personal experiences with spinal fusion surgery. But I'm guessing it was not written by him.

I'd agree. There is plenty of reporting that his family is in the top 1%, so the complaints about co-pays and "thousands of dollars" seem out of place.

Is your position that healthcare should cost what you can afford to pay?

No, but co-pays are roughly 20-50 bucks depending on the plan and service. 6k max a year out of pocket to a family that seemingly has multiple mission dollar houses and makes million dollar donations, doesn't strike me as an amount he would stew over.

Which is why I believe that’s not from the killer at all. It’s just a post someone made pretending to be him (before other facts came out), in an attempt to garner sympathy for him. Sickening.

I would agree...except for the Pokemon thing. His Twitter - which I believe became publicly known after this was written if that date on the substack post is accurate - has that same Pokemon.

Unless it's someone who knew him and his affinity for Breloom.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Q: is taking up surfing advisable if you have a bad back?
-QG

Depends. In general, exercise and weight loss are cornerstones for the management of most musculoskeletal back problems. Unless he had instability of his spine, with appropriate stretching/preparation, he'd likely be Ok to surf.

Of note, there are a small percentage of people with anatomic variants of the blood vessels supplying the spinal cord, who can experience severe neurologic symptoms with surfing. Many of them end up paraplegic.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

I think there's a chance his lawyers will go with an insanity defense. He reportedly lost touch with his friends and family, underwent a major back surgery, and moved to Hawaii unannounced. His outburst while getting out of the car today suggests that his disillusionment may have given way to psychosis. It’s a tough defense to win but it seems his family has resources.

To my untrained mind, I think it is very difficult to claim insanity. The amount of coordination and thought to avoid capture shows that he was in control of his faculties.

My problem with the insanity defense, is of course they’re not sane. They chose to kill somebody. Its a lame defense and should be removed as an option IMHO

The bigger problem is that it's extremely difficult to convince a jury that you didn't understand the consequences of your actions when you wrote an articulate manifesto that could have been titled "Here is my rational, lucid argument for why I intentionally killed a man and would do so again." It especially hurts your case when people like US senators are repeating your talking points to the media as opposed to treating them like the ravings of a madman.

I’m talking broad strokes. Not this case in particular. Killing another human being by my definition is an insane act. Again, IMHO.

That’s why I think it’s a lame defense. One shouldn’t be able to evade the full weight of the prosecution by claiming insanity.

You killed someone/lots of someones, of course you’re off your rocker.

 

[rockaction]

Why are we talking about denial rates and insider trading as if somehow that makes the case any less egregious? We don’t know why the killer did what he did so this isn’t about figuring out the specifics of his motive.

It’s about how justified this murder is and the people concentrating on it can go to hell as far as I’m concerned.

No kidding. Denial rates and insider trading. Silly.

We all know we should be talking about Teen Vogue's political coverage or posts from seven years ago.

Straw man and goalposts. I never said those topics weren’t relevant—just that given what we know, they’re not really relevant to the topic at hand unless we’re establishing a personal motive, which you aren’t. You skipped “Go" and went straight for the besmirching of character. Of a dead man.

I never go to motive or assume things about people they already haven’t said. So why don’t we just make this easier and why don’t you just say what you really want to say and not hide behind plausible deniability?

Go ahead. I remember bananafish said he wanted Trump assassinated as far back as 2020. Why don’t you join him in the ranks of people who have truly stupid brass ones on the board?

Nah, forget it. I know you won’t.

 

[uwillbsoon]

Why are we talking about denial rates and insider trading as if somehow that makes the case any less egregious? We don’t know why the killer did what he did so this isn’t about figuring out the specifics of his motive.

It’s about how justified this murder is and the people concentrating on it can go to hell as far as I’m concerned.

No kidding. Denial rates and insider trading. Silly.

We all know we should be talking about Teen Vogue's political coverage or posts from seven years ago.

Straw man and goalposts. I never said those topics weren’t relevant—just that given what we know, they’re not really relevant to the topic at hand unless we’re establishing a personal motive, which you aren’t. You skipped “Go" and went straight for the besmirching of character. Of a dead man.

I never go to motive or assume things about people they already haven’t said. So why don’t we just make this easier and why don’t you just say what you really want to say and not hide behind plausible deniability?

Go ahead. I remember bananafish said he wanted Trump assassinated as far back as 2020. Why don’t you join him in the ranks of people who have truly stupid brass ones on the board?

Nah, forget it. I know you won’t.

You must have me confused with someone else. I provided information about UHC from a lawsuit that I was hoping helped clarify some comments about their denial rates. I said nothing about Brian Thompson. By all accounts he was an impressive guy. It's sad he was killed.

I think you'd agree both things can be true. Their CEO can be a great guy. And the company can have a culture - dating back decades - of questionable activity.

For all we know, he was trying to change that culture. He's only been CEO for what, 3 years?

 

[rockaction]

Why are we talking about denial rates and insider trading as if somehow that makes the case any less egregious? We don’t know why the killer did what he did so this isn’t about figuring out the specifics of his motive.

It’s about how justified this murder is and the people concentrating on it can go to hell as far as I’m concerned.

No kidding. Denial rates and insider trading. Silly.

We all know we should be talking about Teen Vogue's political coverage or posts from seven years ago.

Straw man and goalposts. I never said those topics weren’t relevant—just that given what we know, they’re not really relevant to the topic at hand unless we’re establishing a personal motive, which you aren’t. You skipped “Go" and went straight for the besmirching of character. Of a dead man.

I never go to motive or assume things about people they already haven’t said. So why don’t we just make this easier and why don’t you just say what you really want to say and not hide behind plausible deniability?

Go ahead. I remember bananafish said he wanted Trump assassinated as far back as 2020. Why don’t you join him in the ranks of people who have truly stupid brass ones on the board?

Nah, forget it. I know you won’t.

You must have me confused with someone else. I provided information about UHC from a lawsuit that I was hoping helped clarify some comments about their denial rates. I said nothing about Brian Thompson. By all accounts he was an impressive guy. It's sad he was killed.

I think you'd agree both things can be true. Their CEO can be a great guy. And the company can have a culture - dating back decades - of questionable activity.

For all we know, he was trying to change that culture. He's only been CEO for what, 3 years?

Why do denial rates matter? Sounds an awful lot like “What was she wearing?” A man was caught on camera executing another man. Yes, we’d like to know why. We know why. Now why is it important whether the executed man was wanted for insider trading whether his company had high denial rates? Watch, they’ll try to get that into court and the court won’t even find it relevant and will discipline the lawyers and charge the jury to ignore it.

So don’t even come back to me and say it’s relevant.

 

[opensourcebeer]

My social media is starting to fill up with what I assume are AI generated images of people posting fake alibis for this guy. “Here’s Luigi and I at the Devils game!” “Here’s Luigi helping me put up my Christmas tree on 12/4!”

It’s gross and I’ve never seen such widespread “fringe” behavior on social media.

I’m seeing all kinds of crazy things. Alibi pictures and postings. Women asking for Luigi lookalike contestants. People legit referring to him as a hero, with hundreds/thousands of likes/hearts. This has to be AI combined with bots, right?

I think the important question to ask is "why do people feel this way".

One simple response is "oh, they are just terrible people". And sure, there's a subset of them that probably are. But I don't think that's the real answer.

 

[belljr]

As far as I can tell the killing of CEOs already stopped.

ETA: the people complaining about things on the internet will never end... that is what the internet is for.

Since 2020, we've had several cities set on fire, the capital building stormed by rioters, a nut show up with a hammer at Pelosi's house, a guy with a gun show up at Kavanaugh's house, a guy take a shot at Trump, another guy try to take a shot at Trump, and a CEO gunned down in the street. I'm probably forgetting some stuff.

But yeah, we're good.

Is your argument here that people suck? Seems self-evident over the last several millennia, no?

Or is your argument that people suck more now than in the past? Simply citing crazy acts by people isn't enough to prove this. I mean, witch trials, Spanish inquisition, Crusades, slavery... People have always sucked.

Are we just throwing out Reagan and Bill a Clinton assassination attempts?
Or Susan Smith who drowned her kids in 1994
The gang murders of 2 random girls in Texas in 1994

 

[Atomic Punk]

You guys were doing good … may want to chill it just a tad.

 

[uwillbsoon]

Why are we talking about denial rates and insider trading as if somehow that makes the case any less egregious? We don’t know why the killer did what he did so this isn’t about figuring out the specifics of his motive.

It’s about how justified this murder is and the people concentrating on it can go to hell as far as I’m concerned.

No kidding. Denial rates and insider trading. Silly.

We all know we should be talking about Teen Vogue's political coverage or posts from seven years ago.

Straw man and goalposts. I never said those topics weren’t relevant—just that given what we know, they’re not really relevant to the topic at hand unless we’re establishing a personal motive, which you aren’t. You skipped “Go" and went straight for the besmirching of character. Of a dead man.

I never go to motive or assume things about people they already haven’t said. So why don’t we just make this easier and why don’t you just say what you really want to say and not hide behind plausible deniability?

Go ahead. I remember bananafish said he wanted Trump assassinated as far back as 2020. Why don’t you join him in the ranks of people who have truly stupid brass ones on the board?

Nah, forget it. I know you won’t.

You must have me confused with someone else. I provided information about UHC from a lawsuit that I was hoping helped clarify some comments about their denial rates. I said nothing about Brian Thompson. By all accounts he was an impressive guy. It's sad he was killed.

I think you'd agree both things can be true. Their CEO can be a great guy. And the company can have a culture - dating back decades - of questionable activity.

For all we know, he was trying to change that culture. He's only been CEO for what, 3 years?

Why do denial rates matter? Sounds an awful lot like “What was she wearing?” A man was caught on camera executing another man. Yes, we’d like to know why. We know why. Now why is it important whether the executed man was wanted for insider trading whether his company had high denial rates? Watch, they’ll try to get that into court and the court won’t even find it relevant and will discipline the lawyers and charge the jury to ignore it.

So don’t even come back to me and say it’s relevant.

And that snarky little three years comment lets me know exactly where you stand. In **** so deep I hope you choke.

In that case I wasn't being snarky. Changing the culture at UHC is going to take more than three years. It's a very big ship to steer.

I didn't bring up insider trading or denial rates. You'd have to ask those folks why it was brought up.

I did bring up Bill McGuire's backdated stock options. But that's not besmirching the dead. He's still very much alive and wealthy and enjoying the fruits of that fraud.

 

[rockaction]

Why are we talking about denial rates and insider trading as if somehow that makes the case any less egregious? We don’t know why the killer did what he did so this isn’t about figuring out the specifics of his motive.

It’s about how justified this murder is and the people concentrating on it can go to hell as far as I’m concerned.

No kidding. Denial rates and insider trading. Silly.

We all know we should be talking about Teen Vogue's political coverage or posts from seven years ago.

Straw man and goalposts. I never said those topics weren’t relevant—just that given what we know, they’re not really relevant to the topic at hand unless we’re establishing a personal motive, which you aren’t. You skipped “Go" and went straight for the besmirching of character. Of a dead man.

I never go to motive or assume things about people they already haven’t said. So why don’t we just make this easier and why don’t you just say what you really want to say and not hide behind plausible deniability?

Go ahead. I remember bananafish said he wanted Trump assassinated as far back as 2020. Why don’t you join him in the ranks of people who have truly stupid brass ones on the board?

Nah, forget it. I know you won’t.

You must have me confused with someone else. I provided information about UHC from a lawsuit that I was hoping helped clarify some comments about their denial rates. I said nothing about Brian Thompson. By all accounts he was an impressive guy. It's sad he was killed.

I think you'd agree both things can be true. Their CEO can be a great guy. And the company can have a culture - dating back decades - of questionable activity.

For all we know, he was trying to change that culture. He's only been CEO for what, 3 years?

Why do denial rates matter? Sounds an awful lot like “What was she wearing?” A man was caught on camera executing another man. Yes, we’d like to know why. We know why. Now why is it important whether the executed man was wanted for insider trading whether his company had high denial rates? Watch, they’ll try to get that into court and the court won’t even find it relevant and will discipline the lawyers and charge the jury to ignore it.

So don’t even come back to me and say it’s relevant.

And that snarky little three years comment lets me know exactly where you stand. In **** so deep I hope you choke.

In that case I wasn't being snarky. Changing the culture at UHC is going to take more than three years. It's a very big ship to steer.

I didn't bring up insider trading or denial rates. You'd have to ask those folks why it was brought up.

I did bring up Bill McGuire's backdated stock options. But that's not besmirching the dead. He's still very much alive and wealthy and enjoying the fruits of that fraud.

You know what? I apologize for what I said and anything I imputed to you. Pardon me. I’m being serious. Somebody talked about a bad look before. This is a bad look.

Peace.